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  TOV News > Virtual Dyno Comparo: 2011 Honda Civic Si vs 2012 Honda Civic Si > > Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord.

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DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-22-2011 21:38
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An M3?

I pretty much dismissed those when I saw the MT piece with the 5.0 GT comparo.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-23-2011 01:15
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owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I'm not trying to do anything. Frankly, I don't plan on ever owning another Honda Civic. I owned Civics, they herded me towards to better Hondas and Acuras, they did their job.


You were attempting to preach objectivity, but weren't practicing it.

Objectivity says that based on what we know about the TSX engine, and what sources have told us, this dyno is VERY close to what the Si will produce. You can dismiss it all you want, but you are looking at a very close resemblance of the next Si power curve. When you see the final results, you will probably realize that we are actually being a lot more objective than you give us credit for. There is a difference between being unhappy about something and failing to see things objectively. The objective logic is why we are unhappy.

Dude, it's a car. Nobody died. Calm down. Your penis size is not directly related to whatever you think your failed expectations for this car are.


If I was insecure in my penis size, I wouldn't desire to be driving the most derided sport compact on the market. My penis size is just fine, and I am perfectly comfortable with it. It is tragic that you had to try and make this into a fallic attack though, as if attacking my penis size would make me retreat in shame.

I never said anybody died. But what is dying is Honda's credibility among their core enthusiasts. It is bad enough that I have started to question my loyalty to their mainstream products based on certain quality and construction issues. It is even worse, when I have to start questioning my willingness to support their enthusiast products which I would have previously weighted well above everything else in the category.

And I am passionate about cars. I am passionate about my love of Honda's products, my experience with them, and my appreciation for their pursuit of the technological high ground. Which is precisely why I am unhappy. I am not going to appologize for being a Honda enthusiast, nor am I going to appologize for being disappointed with their retreat from everything that made them great. They have allowed their leads in technological advancement, design and construction, quality, content, and usefullnes all to erode.

You're already angry about something that may or may not have happened yet. Maybe we should just trot out the dyno plot from a 2004 Element and sit around and pout because that's what the new Si dyno plot is gonna look like. Settle down, Beavis.


Actually, if you go back and read my post, I stated I was unhappy with having to pay $700 on my current car if I want a proper VTEC crossover. Honda should have provided that from the factory as far as I am concerned.

As for the K24, it relates, because I shouldn't have to do a head swap on my brand new Si, to get some meaningful increase in performance, or to have the headroom to get decent increases from the engine. The whole point of my statement was to illustrate that the new Si engine is compromised from a performance standpoint. Much more than the current engine. I have owned Honda's for a long time, and have always been willing to resort to bolt ons to correct the conservative nature of Honda's setups. However, head swapping crosses the line on a new car. As such, I am either forced to buy an Si and put up with inferior output, or I can buy something else that does respond to bolt-ons, or I can keep my current car that responds to bolt ons.

Who cares how many shifts it takes to get to 60 mph, you're magazine racing. Don't preach to me, I have an S2000 that is much more peaky than anything with a K20 ever was or could be, and I also have a TSX.

One thing matters: area under the curve. Peak power ratings are for idiots. For shits and giggles, I tuned my old '94 Civic EX (and the D16Z6 wasn't THAT tuneable) for peak HP once- it looked great on a dyno but you couldn't pull away from a stoplight at anything less than 3k rpm without stalling. Yippee. But those peak numbers looked soooooo good.

Repeat after me: area under the curve.


Don't do much reading around here do you?

1) I don't care about shifting 3 times to 60 MPH. However, Honda does because it hurts their performance in 0-60 comparison tests in magaizines. It is a compromise OEM's have been making for years in deferrence to the most oft shopped performance spec on the face of the planet. It is unlikely that Honda is going to gear the car to redline in 2nd before 60MPH, which means they are probably going to raise the gearing from the TSX as a result of tire sidewall. Sad but true.

2) If you don't understand Honda not wanting to redline it in 2nd above 60 mph, then you haven't been following the complaints about the Si, one of the largest of which is having to row the gears like mad to get the car to go. The entire justification for more torque with equal peak power and lower redline, is that you can take advantage of the engine's lazier power delivery, and thus don't have to ring it out and row the gears as much. It sort of defeats the purpose is if they don't mitigate having to row the gears as much wouldn't you say?

3) I have made statements repeatedly about area under the curve. But, more specifically, it is area under the curve where you are working. Since in most performance situations, you are doing your work in VTEC with the K20, you have lost all advantage of area under the curve, because the two are are almost identical.

Besides, your premise about the D16 is flawed anyway. The K20 is producing 90% of its torque from 2k, to nearly 8K. It isn't like I had to kill the bottom end in order to get equivalent top end performance. In fact, the K24 had a peakier power delivery than the K20 does. Substantially outside of 30% of the range, it is doing a greatly diminished amount of extra work.

Also, one of the wonderful things about the K series (at least the ones with GOOD heads) is its ability to make a broad powerband. Things like VTC, DOHC i-VTEC, better ports etc, all make your comparison to the D series pretty irrelevant. The D series had significantly less technology with which to blur any compromises between peak power and low end flexibility. It is just as laughable as the people who assume the K series delivers a curve comprable to a B series, H series, or F20/F22C. Besides, I have not asked Honda to make a top end peaky engine at the expense of bottom end response. I have asked them to improve the ENTIRE powerband, which is not only realistic, but fairly easy.

As a good example of this, not only does the K20R improve both torque and power output substantially from the K20Z3, but it actually also improves the curve from the bottom to the top of the rev range.

Sorry, but it is a little bit more complex than just saying "area under the curve." It has to be the area under the curve, where the engine is working.

I really don't see a point here, you're mouth is moving but nothing tangible is coming out. I'm not sure you have any idea what you're talking about. Seriously, dude. Read what you wrote and tell me it's anything but pointless conjecture. I have no idea how to respond to this.


You don't understand or don't want to acknowledge what I said, but lots of tangible stuff is coming out.

Dynos are a whole lot more relevant that you were giving them credit for. Period.

OEMs rely on them a lot more than you were giving them credit for, and they are more comparable than you were giving them credit for. Period. No, they are not 100%, but then again, neither is anything else. However, as with anything, if you account for the error, and make reasonable comparison assumptions, then you CAN get a valid and useful data.

Anecdotes do not make truth. The last Civic Si was the best FWD car Honda ever bothered to sell here. I don't know why you'd assume Honda would not try to improve that car. Unless you've just got your panties in a bunch and want to bitch about something.


That is the problem. This car doesn't improve on the current one, at least not in terms of acceleration. There is no substantially greater performance. It will be incremental at best. Mark my words. Honda needed more if they wanted to continue to be taken seriously. They could have gotten more, had they not deferred to cost cutting and ease of installation.

Also, you may want to go back and study your Si history. There have been two cars that didn't provide significant overall increases in performance. The EP3 and this. The EP3 had a horrendous reception and didn't sell. I suspect, based on my long time experience with Si's and Si owners, this car will be similar. Call it anectdotal, or call it speculation. I dont' really care. The car is pretty disappointing among most current owners. Those who are all for it, apprently have no idea that it is not going to provide meaningfully more performance. They seem to be like you in assuming that because it is a K24 it has all of the performance aspects of all previous DOHC i-VTEC K24's.

The thing that really should be considered is the number of potential Si owners who skipped the current car because it didn't provide enough of an improvement over the RSX-S.

The Civic Si has never been the fastest car in its class. The cheapest to buy, the cheapest to maintain, one of the most fun to drive, perhaps. But never the fastest. A Mazdaspeed 3 will rub any Civic Si's dick in the dirt, for not much more money. Choosing between a K20 and a K24 sure as hell ain't gonna change that. Hell, a MS3 might hump my S2000 in a straight line. But I'm not running to the Mazda dealer to trade cars.


You sure seem to have a big dick fetish...but I digress. I am well aware of what cars will drag an Si's dick through the dirt.

Thank you for supporting my point.

What the Si DID always provide was a stratospheric redline, with a high winding, top end biased naturally aspirated engine. It wasn't the fastest, but it sure has hell did have the most unique character. Even back in the day of the lowly D series engines, the redline was still typically 20-30% higher than most anything else's.

That is now very much mitigated while not having any seriously tangible performance improvement, which has been my whole point, all along. I never bought an Si because it was the fastest. I did however buy it (and like ALL sporty Hondas for that matter) because they had esoteric redlines, hugely free flowing heads, and provided an experience that couldn't be had for anywhere near the price range unless you bought a crotch rocket. I like screaming NA engines. Always have, always will. But now, not only do I not get that (sorry, but the K24 in the current TSX is not a screaming NA engine, good as it may be), but I still get the slowest car. So what is the point for those who have traditionally actually purchased Si's (of which you are self admittedly not a supporter).

Again, I don't see a real point here. If Shawn can switch a few parts and do a little tuning and see a reliable 270 whp from a K24, there's no reason to assume Honda won't make the K24 make better numbers than the K20.

This is the reason I stopped surfing car internet forums. Levity is a losing battle.


The point is that you preach objectivity, but then dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your position. That is precisely why I do still surf car forums, so that people who think they know what they are talking about don't overshadow those who do. I don't want incorrect positions based on incorrect assumptions to overshadow Honda's perception of what people want.

Shawn was able to get large amounts of horsepower out of an engine that was nothing like this one. It had VTEC on both cams, and a free flowing exhaust tract. What restriction was there, could be remedied by changing manifolds and camshafts. The problem with this engine, is that you can't change manifolds without changing the head, because they are the same part. Not only is flow SEVERELY compromised by the attempt to shove an entire exhaust manifold into the head, but you no longer have the ability to vastly improve the exhaust cam without compromise. Top that off with the fact that you can no longer control exhaust runner length and diameter to tailor the powerband the way you want it, and it becomes a whole different ballgame. He has said himself that he expects any relative gains to be about half of those on previous K24's. That means that you have to do twice the work to get to 270HP, which in turn means it would probably be easier to get the current K20 to that level, considering it needs a few bolt-ons and cams, while the new K24 will probably need more than that.

It is easy to attempt talk down to me because you feel that you are so informed about engines, while you are concurrently assuming that one K24 must be equal to any other K24, when the reality is that the truth is far, far different. Like any specific discipline, it is easy to ASSUME you know as much as the pros, but in reality you don't know shit. Based on your comments here, I will leave it at that. I am not even a pro, and I can see that this engine has pretty much removed most of the previous TSX's headroom.

Let me help you: look to the essence of things to understand them. The Civic Si was never about any particular number or numbers. It's never going to be the car that's the fastest down the drag strip. The essence of the Civic Si is about the driving experience. There's no reason Honda can't preserve that with the K24.


I own an Si remember? I know exactly what if offers and why it offers it. I also know exactly why I bought it. I have loved and lusted after every Si since they came out. The problem, as a CURRENT Si owner, is that this car takes one of the largest desireable features of the current car (the one you said was the best Si Honda has produced), and removes it. As such, the other competitors in the segment rise to a more equal level of consideration, because while they also don't offer the NA powerband, they DO offer a lot more performance, and have also become quite well rounded. I will be perfectly honest in saying that the GTI is now almost an equal consideration to this upcoming Si. Not only is it faster and more flexible, but it redlines nearly as high, has more cargo flexibility, likely a nicer interior (I know its nicer looks wise), and is probably more refined. It also has a ton of bolt on headroom. The biggest downside is unknown long term reliability. Those were all things I was willing to weight a little lower in the equation because of the 8K RPM redline and flat torque curve of the Si. Can't do that now.

The chassis will probably still be balanced, and it will probably still be reliable, it simply won't be as thrilling. And considering reliability in much of the rest of the segment is on the rise, and many of them are more balanced chassis wise (WRX, GTI, MINI, MS3) the new Si is going to have to have some pretty significant improvements over the rest of the board to even come close to maintaining its desireability for many Si enthusiasts (it isn't like I am the only one that is unhappy here).



After reading another one of your ridiculously long winded posts where little if any points are actually cohesively made I do at least see you are not happy with this new Civic Si and its powerplant and Honda again taking the easy, cheaper way of what they implement in their newer vehicles. Maybe after this disappointment you will start to understand other peoples frustration with Honda-Acura and not continue to waste so much time with your incredibly long winded posts trying to defend Honda Acura and criticize people who do complain just for the sake of arguing.

Can you now see why many feel Acura needs more unique technology, offerings, and features like their own rwd platform and a few models on it, at least a v8 option, a legitimate flagship sedan, and preferably a halo sports car. If Acura had these unique things Honda's would not have to hold back on their models since Acura would have a unique enough lineup. Instead with Acura's sharing so much engine, transmission, and chassis wise with Honda's they are always going to run into this problem until something changes. That is the reason many like me complain about what Honda does with Acura and why you writing a novel about why we are wrong about that and defending them or coming up with pointless excuses why Acura should not build a 100K halo sports car or all the reasons higher priced sports cars are not good ideas or how the NSX was not that successful does you no good if you were looking forward to more effort in powerplants for newer Honda's.

You can only hope Acura gets the Si that you wanted since the Honda had to be held back but knowing Honda's track record I doubt this sub TSX will have anything more then just 5 or 10 more hp then the civic if not the same hp out of the same engine or some IMA hybrid that is going to be even worse.

If people at Honda do read this site and its complaints/disappointments about its decisions over the years then hopefully they get the message enthusiasts are not very happy, you writing novels attacking complaints and trying to say they are wrong simply to argue some kind of point that is never really made can give Honda the impression that there is a debate whether enthusiasts are happy with them instead of it being pretty universal most are not.

We hope the complaints about Honda and Acura will be viewed and sink in and Honda would realize taking the easy route and throwing the more difficult to tune less revy 2.4 from the TSX is not going to be acceptable to Si fans and they wanted something they put more effort into and more performance oriented and tunable.



Never got passed the first sentence, because it is quite clear that you are just trying to be your usual turdly, trolling self.

Sorry, better luck next time.



I am pretty sure you did get past the first sentence and did read the whole thing or you would not have resorted to a childish name calling reply that again had no real cohesive argument or point typical of many of your posts.

Continue attacking people who are not happy with Honda or Acura with your long winded posts and then also attacking anyone who defends Honda like you always do when you don't like something. Must be nice to have this complex that only you can be right about what Honda does and feel the need to attack anyone who does not agree with you.

Good luck to you too.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-23-2011 01:49
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I'm not trying to do anything. Frankly, I don't plan on ever owning another Honda Civic. I owned Civics, they herded me towards to better Hondas and Acuras, they did their job.


You were attempting to preach objectivity, but weren't practicing it.

Objectivity says that based on what we know about the TSX engine, and what sources have told us, this dyno is VERY close to what the Si will produce. You can dismiss it all you want, but you are looking at a very close resemblance of the next Si power curve. When you see the final results, you will probably realize that we are actually being a lot more objective than you give us credit for. There is a difference between being unhappy about something and failing to see things objectively. The objective logic is why we are unhappy.

Dude, it's a car. Nobody died. Calm down. Your penis size is not directly related to whatever you think your failed expectations for this car are.


If I was insecure in my penis size, I wouldn't desire to be driving the most derided sport compact on the market. My penis size is just fine, and I am perfectly comfortable with it. It is tragic that you had to try and make this into a fallic attack though, as if attacking my penis size would make me retreat in shame.

I never said anybody died. But what is dying is Honda's credibility among their core enthusiasts. It is bad enough that I have started to question my loyalty to their mainstream products based on certain quality and construction issues. It is even worse, when I have to start questioning my willingness to support their enthusiast products which I would have previously weighted well above everything else in the category.

And I am passionate about cars. I am passionate about my love of Honda's products, my experience with them, and my appreciation for their pursuit of the technological high ground. Which is precisely why I am unhappy. I am not going to appologize for being a Honda enthusiast, nor am I going to appologize for being disappointed with their retreat from everything that made them great. They have allowed their leads in technological advancement, design and construction, quality, content, and usefullnes all to erode.

You're already angry about something that may or may not have happened yet. Maybe we should just trot out the dyno plot from a 2004 Element and sit around and pout because that's what the new Si dyno plot is gonna look like. Settle down, Beavis.


Actually, if you go back and read my post, I stated I was unhappy with having to pay $700 on my current car if I want a proper VTEC crossover. Honda should have provided that from the factory as far as I am concerned.

As for the K24, it relates, because I shouldn't have to do a head swap on my brand new Si, to get some meaningful increase in performance, or to have the headroom to get decent increases from the engine. The whole point of my statement was to illustrate that the new Si engine is compromised from a performance standpoint. Much more than the current engine. I have owned Honda's for a long time, and have always been willing to resort to bolt ons to correct the conservative nature of Honda's setups. However, head swapping crosses the line on a new car. As such, I am either forced to buy an Si and put up with inferior output, or I can buy something else that does respond to bolt-ons, or I can keep my current car that responds to bolt ons.

Who cares how many shifts it takes to get to 60 mph, you're magazine racing. Don't preach to me, I have an S2000 that is much more peaky than anything with a K20 ever was or could be, and I also have a TSX.

One thing matters: area under the curve. Peak power ratings are for idiots. For shits and giggles, I tuned my old '94 Civic EX (and the D16Z6 wasn't THAT tuneable) for peak HP once- it looked great on a dyno but you couldn't pull away from a stoplight at anything less than 3k rpm without stalling. Yippee. But those peak numbers looked soooooo good.

Repeat after me: area under the curve.


Don't do much reading around here do you?

1) I don't care about shifting 3 times to 60 MPH. However, Honda does because it hurts their performance in 0-60 comparison tests in magaizines. It is a compromise OEM's have been making for years in deferrence to the most oft shopped performance spec on the face of the planet. It is unlikely that Honda is going to gear the car to redline in 2nd before 60MPH, which means they are probably going to raise the gearing from the TSX as a result of tire sidewall. Sad but true.

2) If you don't understand Honda not wanting to redline it in 2nd above 60 mph, then you haven't been following the complaints about the Si, one of the largest of which is having to row the gears like mad to get the car to go. The entire justification for more torque with equal peak power and lower redline, is that you can take advantage of the engine's lazier power delivery, and thus don't have to ring it out and row the gears as much. It sort of defeats the purpose is if they don't mitigate having to row the gears as much wouldn't you say?

3) I have made statements repeatedly about area under the curve. But, more specifically, it is area under the curve where you are working. Since in most performance situations, you are doing your work in VTEC with the K20, you have lost all advantage of area under the curve, because the two are are almost identical.

Besides, your premise about the D16 is flawed anyway. The K20 is producing 90% of its torque from 2k, to nearly 8K. It isn't like I had to kill the bottom end in order to get equivalent top end performance. In fact, the K24 had a peakier power delivery than the K20 does. Substantially outside of 30% of the range, it is doing a greatly diminished amount of extra work.

Also, one of the wonderful things about the K series (at least the ones with GOOD heads) is its ability to make a broad powerband. Things like VTC, DOHC i-VTEC, better ports etc, all make your comparison to the D series pretty irrelevant. The D series had significantly less technology with which to blur any compromises between peak power and low end flexibility. It is just as laughable as the people who assume the K series delivers a curve comprable to a B series, H series, or F20/F22C. Besides, I have not asked Honda to make a top end peaky engine at the expense of bottom end response. I have asked them to improve the ENTIRE powerband, which is not only realistic, but fairly easy.

As a good example of this, not only does the K20R improve both torque and power output substantially from the K20Z3, but it actually also improves the curve from the bottom to the top of the rev range.

Sorry, but it is a little bit more complex than just saying "area under the curve." It has to be the area under the curve, where the engine is working.

I really don't see a point here, you're mouth is moving but nothing tangible is coming out. I'm not sure you have any idea what you're talking about. Seriously, dude. Read what you wrote and tell me it's anything but pointless conjecture. I have no idea how to respond to this.


You don't understand or don't want to acknowledge what I said, but lots of tangible stuff is coming out.

Dynos are a whole lot more relevant that you were giving them credit for. Period.

OEMs rely on them a lot more than you were giving them credit for, and they are more comparable than you were giving them credit for. Period. No, they are not 100%, but then again, neither is anything else. However, as with anything, if you account for the error, and make reasonable comparison assumptions, then you CAN get a valid and useful data.

Anecdotes do not make truth. The last Civic Si was the best FWD car Honda ever bothered to sell here. I don't know why you'd assume Honda would not try to improve that car. Unless you've just got your panties in a bunch and want to bitch about something.


That is the problem. This car doesn't improve on the current one, at least not in terms of acceleration. There is no substantially greater performance. It will be incremental at best. Mark my words. Honda needed more if they wanted to continue to be taken seriously. They could have gotten more, had they not deferred to cost cutting and ease of installation.

Also, you may want to go back and study your Si history. There have been two cars that didn't provide significant overall increases in performance. The EP3 and this. The EP3 had a horrendous reception and didn't sell. I suspect, based on my long time experience with Si's and Si owners, this car will be similar. Call it anectdotal, or call it speculation. I dont' really care. The car is pretty disappointing among most current owners. Those who are all for it, apprently have no idea that it is not going to provide meaningfully more performance. They seem to be like you in assuming that because it is a K24 it has all of the performance aspects of all previous DOHC i-VTEC K24's.

The thing that really should be considered is the number of potential Si owners who skipped the current car because it didn't provide enough of an improvement over the RSX-S.

The Civic Si has never been the fastest car in its class. The cheapest to buy, the cheapest to maintain, one of the most fun to drive, perhaps. But never the fastest. A Mazdaspeed 3 will rub any Civic Si's dick in the dirt, for not much more money. Choosing between a K20 and a K24 sure as hell ain't gonna change that. Hell, a MS3 might hump my S2000 in a straight line. But I'm not running to the Mazda dealer to trade cars.


You sure seem to have a big dick fetish...but I digress. I am well aware of what cars will drag an Si's dick through the dirt.

Thank you for supporting my point.

What the Si DID always provide was a stratospheric redline, with a high winding, top end biased naturally aspirated engine. It wasn't the fastest, but it sure has hell did have the most unique character. Even back in the day of the lowly D series engines, the redline was still typically 20-30% higher than most anything else's.

That is now very much mitigated while not having any seriously tangible performance improvement, which has been my whole point, all along. I never bought an Si because it was the fastest. I did however buy it (and like ALL sporty Hondas for that matter) because they had esoteric redlines, hugely free flowing heads, and provided an experience that couldn't be had for anywhere near the price range unless you bought a crotch rocket. I like screaming NA engines. Always have, always will. But now, not only do I not get that (sorry, but the K24 in the current TSX is not a screaming NA engine, good as it may be), but I still get the slowest car. So what is the point for those who have traditionally actually purchased Si's (of which you are self admittedly not a supporter).

Again, I don't see a real point here. If Shawn can switch a few parts and do a little tuning and see a reliable 270 whp from a K24, there's no reason to assume Honda won't make the K24 make better numbers than the K20.

This is the reason I stopped surfing car internet forums. Levity is a losing battle.


The point is that you preach objectivity, but then dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your position. That is precisely why I do still surf car forums, so that people who think they know what they are talking about don't overshadow those who do. I don't want incorrect positions based on incorrect assumptions to overshadow Honda's perception of what people want.

Shawn was able to get large amounts of horsepower out of an engine that was nothing like this one. It had VTEC on both cams, and a free flowing exhaust tract. What restriction was there, could be remedied by changing manifolds and camshafts. The problem with this engine, is that you can't change manifolds without changing the head, because they are the same part. Not only is flow SEVERELY compromised by the attempt to shove an entire exhaust manifold into the head, but you no longer have the ability to vastly improve the exhaust cam without compromise. Top that off with the fact that you can no longer control exhaust runner length and diameter to tailor the powerband the way you want it, and it becomes a whole different ballgame. He has said himself that he expects any relative gains to be about half of those on previous K24's. That means that you have to do twice the work to get to 270HP, which in turn means it would probably be easier to get the current K20 to that level, considering it needs a few bolt-ons and cams, while the new K24 will probably need more than that.

It is easy to attempt talk down to me because you feel that you are so informed about engines, while you are concurrently assuming that one K24 must be equal to any other K24, when the reality is that the truth is far, far different. Like any specific discipline, it is easy to ASSUME you know as much as the pros, but in reality you don't know shit. Based on your comments here, I will leave it at that. I am not even a pro, and I can see that this engine has pretty much removed most of the previous TSX's headroom.

Let me help you: look to the essence of things to understand them. The Civic Si was never about any particular number or numbers. It's never going to be the car that's the fastest down the drag strip. The essence of the Civic Si is about the driving experience. There's no reason Honda can't preserve that with the K24.


I own an Si remember? I know exactly what if offers and why it offers it. I also know exactly why I bought it. I have loved and lusted after every Si since they came out. The problem, as a CURRENT Si owner, is that this car takes one of the largest desireable features of the current car (the one you said was the best Si Honda has produced), and removes it. As such, the other competitors in the segment rise to a more equal level of consideration, because while they also don't offer the NA powerband, they DO offer a lot more performance, and have also become quite well rounded. I will be perfectly honest in saying that the GTI is now almost an equal consideration to this upcoming Si. Not only is it faster and more flexible, but it redlines nearly as high, has more cargo flexibility, likely a nicer interior (I know its nicer looks wise), and is probably more refined. It also has a ton of bolt on headroom. The biggest downside is unknown long term reliability. Those were all things I was willing to weight a little lower in the equation because of the 8K RPM redline and flat torque curve of the Si. Can't do that now.

The chassis will probably still be balanced, and it will probably still be reliable, it simply won't be as thrilling. And considering reliability in much of the rest of the segment is on the rise, and many of them are more balanced chassis wise (WRX, GTI, MINI, MS3) the new Si is going to have to have some pretty significant improvements over the rest of the board to even come close to maintaining its desireability for many Si enthusiasts (it isn't like I am the only one that is unhappy here).



After reading another one of your ridiculously long winded posts where little if any points are actually cohesively made I do at least see you are not happy with this new Civic Si and its powerplant and Honda again taking the easy, cheaper way of what they implement in their newer vehicles. Maybe after this disappointment you will start to understand other peoples frustration with Honda-Acura and not continue to waste so much time with your incredibly long winded posts trying to defend Honda Acura and criticize people who do complain just for the sake of arguing.

Can you now see why many feel Acura needs more unique technology, offerings, and features like their own rwd platform and a few models on it, at least a v8 option, a legitimate flagship sedan, and preferably a halo sports car. If Acura had these unique things Honda's would not have to hold back on their models since Acura would have a unique enough lineup. Instead with Acura's sharing so much engine, transmission, and chassis wise with Honda's they are always going to run into this problem until something changes. That is the reason many like me complain about what Honda does with Acura and why you writing a novel about why we are wrong about that and defending them or coming up with pointless excuses why Acura should not build a 100K halo sports car or all the reasons higher priced sports cars are not good ideas or how the NSX was not that successful does you no good if you were looking forward to more effort in powerplants for newer Honda's.

You can only hope Acura gets the Si that you wanted since the Honda had to be held back but knowing Honda's track record I doubt this sub TSX will have anything more then just 5 or 10 more hp then the civic if not the same hp out of the same engine or some IMA hybrid that is going to be even worse.

If people at Honda do read this site and its complaints/disappointments about its decisions over the years then hopefully they get the message enthusiasts are not very happy, you writing novels attacking complaints and trying to say they are wrong simply to argue some kind of point that is never really made can give Honda the impression that there is a debate whether enthusiasts are happy with them instead of it being pretty universal most are not.

We hope the complaints about Honda and Acura will be viewed and sink in and Honda would realize taking the easy route and throwing the more difficult to tune less revy 2.4 from the TSX is not going to be acceptable to Si fans and they wanted something they put more effort into and more performance oriented and tunable.



Never got passed the first sentence, because it is quite clear that you are just trying to be your usual turdly, trolling self.

Sorry, better luck next time.



I am pretty sure you did get past the first sentence and did read the whole thing or you would not have resorted to a childish name calling reply that again had no real cohesive argument or point typical of many of your posts.

Continue attacking people who are not happy with Honda or Acura with your long winded posts and then also attacking anyone who defends Honda like you always do when you don't like something. Must be nice to have this complex that only you can be right about what Honda does and feel the need to attack anyone who does not agree with you.

Good luck to you too.



Nope. Sorry. Stopped at the first sentence. I didn't want to waste my time reading your response, but figured I would respond to let you know I didn't take the time to read it.

Sound familiar?

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-23-2011 10:00
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lexusgs wrote:

Continue attacking people who are not happy with Honda or Acura with your long winded posts and then also attacking anyone who defends Honda like you always do when you don't like something. Must be nice to have this complex that only you can be right about what Honda does and feel the need to attack anyone who does not agree with you.

Good luck to you too.


We need a tutorial on how to quote someone without grabbing the entire gigantic wall of text.

Anyway, what you are pointing out in his behavior is really not an issue. Arguing for the sake of it is one thing, but he is making valid counterpoints as far as I can tell. Not everyone here is polishing Honda's knob every time they reveal a new model, because frankly, they aren't impressing anybody lately.

Go sniff around the Internet and look at the reaction to the new Civic (especially the Si). Here is what you will find:

1. It looks too similar to the current model
2. The interior is suspect
3. It looks like a 4x4
4. The 2.4L is buzzing with good and bad reception
5. Honda didn't do enough to stand apart of the pack

Sound familiar? We really don't need another thread or post about this car until it hits the road, because unless we can get a number 6 or 7 to add to the generic topics, this will just be a broken record until the release.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-23-2011 16:55
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DCR wrote:
lexusgs wrote:

Continue attacking people who are not happy with Honda or Acura with your long winded posts and then also attacking anyone who defends Honda like you always do when you don't like something. Must be nice to have this complex that only you can be right about what Honda does and feel the need to attack anyone who does not agree with you.

Good luck to you too.


We need a tutorial on how to quote someone without grabbing the entire gigantic wall of text.

Anyway, what you are pointing out in his behavior is really not an issue. Arguing for the sake of it is one thing, but he is making valid counterpoints as far as I can tell. Not everyone here is polishing Honda's knob every time they reveal a new model, because frankly, they aren't impressing anybody lately.

Go sniff around the Internet and look at the reaction to the new Civic (especially the Si). Here is what you will find:

1. It looks too similar to the current model
2. The interior is suspect
3. It looks like a 4x4
4. The 2.4L is buzzing with good and bad reception
5. Honda didn't do enough to stand apart of the pack

Sound familiar? We really don't need another thread or post about this car until it hits the road, because unless we can get a number 6 or 7 to add to the generic topics, this will just be a broken record until the release.




The funny thing is that they does the exact same thing he accuses me of.

Also, by and large, I haven't attacked anybody for anything, however I do respond in kind to attacks, as I should.

People just don't want to deal with their pre-conceived notions being challenged, such as how, in this case, a 20% larger engine doesn't provide a meaningful increase in anything outside of a limited set of circumstances. LexusGS probably takes this especially personally, since he is one of the lead horsemen for making Honda into everyone else.

2008 Black SI4dr
Profile for 2008 Black SI4dr
Re: I, for one, welcome our new 2.4L overlord. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-07-2011 19:53
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I like the white sedan from the auto show, I don't like the production pics on honda's website. Car needed to be noticeably faster for me to trade-in my 08 si sedan, so I'm guessing around 240 hp. Doesn't look like this engine is going to do that.

So I am keeping my '08 and possibly considering the '12 VW GLI despite VW's bad reputation on reliability. That car would look nice in the Parking Garage at work and still be fun to drive. Plus I hear you can get another 50 hp out of that engine with minor mods/money.

If this car would have looked like the concept white one and had 240+ hp I would have been all over it though. I will still take a look at it when it shows up at the dealer during my next maintenance visit, but I don't think it will make me want to buy it.


 
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