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  TOV News > Virtual Dyno Comparo: 2011 Honda Civic Si vs 2012 Honda Civic Si > > Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win?

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330R
Profile for 330R
Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 00:26
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Given a similar weight for comparison's sake, would a K24Z3-powered Si shifting at 7k hang with the more powerful K20Z3 shifting at 7800?
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 01:25
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No. Not if the engines were the same as these. The K20 spends almost all its time after first gear between 6000 and 8000 rpm. It's average power in that range is about 175 whp.

The K24 will spend it's time between 5200 and 7100. The average hp will be somewhat lower.

Now, it is conceivable that the K24 could get out ahead of the K20 in first gear since it is usually easier to launch a high torque FWD car (within reason) because you don't have to rev it high and drop the clutch. And it does have more power down low. But on a roll, with these two engines as tested, the K20 would be quicker.

SC

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 02:48
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No argument the K20 will be quicker if your in the right gear. But in normal give and take daily driving? Is this where Honda is taking us - cars for the average driver??
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 11:48
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sadlerau wrote:
No argument the K20 will be quicker if your in the right gear. But in normal give and take daily driving? Is this where Honda is taking us - cars for the average driver??


Bingo...my thoughts exactly (the first part at least).

In the racetrack, or on an empty on ramp with no radar equipped CHP at the bottom (duh!), the 2 liter will be faster, but it is very hard to keep driving at 6000 rpm all day long.

Besides, this is a TSX motor, which represents an older design. For all we know, the '12 Si may easily have an updated K24.

Now the second part.. average driver? No, I don't think so, just a more useful car. Over time, I have found that driving very high RPM Hondas gets to be a chore around town and on rush hour. They may be fun, for a little bit, I mean, REALLY fun, but if you have to deal with a long drive or just go around, you get tired of it.

No matter how great a driver you are.

Besides, I think the "average driver" Civic are the LX/EX, which with 140bhp and an AT5 are actually pretty well powered.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 12:22
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TonyE wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
No argument the K20 will be quicker if your in the right gear. But in normal give and take daily driving? Is this where Honda is taking us - cars for the average driver??


Bingo...my thoughts exactly (the first part at least).

In the racetrack, or on an empty on ramp with no radar equipped CHP at the bottom (duh!), the 2 liter will be faster, but it is very hard to keep driving at 6000 rpm all day long.

Besides, this is a TSX motor, which represents an older design. For all we know, the '12 Si may easily have an updated K24.

Now the second part.. average driver? No, I don't think so, just a more useful car. Over time, I have found that driving very high RPM Hondas gets to be a chore around town and on rush hour. They may be fun, for a little bit, I mean, REALLY fun, but if you have to deal with a long drive or just go around, you get tired of it.

No matter how great a driver you are.

Besides, I think the "average driver" Civic are the LX/EX, which with 140bhp and an AT5 are actually pretty well powered.



sorry Tony, the K24 was just updated for the '11 TSX with a bunch of stuff, all of it designed to minimize friction. The power and torque ratings remained the same after all the changes, and the Civic Si motor is actually rated slightly lower (200hp/170lb-ft vs 201/172). Maybe the Si's intake plumbing is a little more restrictive or something due to the engine bay constraints?

The Civic LX/EX feels really, really underpowered to me.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 12:53
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Jeff wrote:


sorry Tony, the K24 was just updated for the '11 TSX with a bunch of stuff, all of it designed to minimize friction. The power and torque ratings remained the same after all the changes, and the Civic Si motor is actually rated slightly lower (200hp/170lb-ft vs 201/172). Maybe the Si's intake plumbing is a little more restrictive or something due to the engine bay constraints?

The Civic LX/EX feels really, really underpowered to me.




Jeff, I'm driving a CRV EX-L AWD (24mpg) , Fit MT5 (36mpg) and HCH (38 mpg).

You, well, you got you Odyssey, Si and S2K (that right?).

To me, the Civic LX/EX feel fast enough.

It's all a matter of viewpoint, You represent an outlier, way out on the power side. I, today, represent the other outlier, way out on the side of fuel efficiency. Most people are in the middle.

BTW, here's food for thought. As my cars were getting faster, I realized that at the limit, if something happened I could really GET HURT.... so now I'm driving cars that I car push and I'm having a lot of fun...

Like they said: "It's more fun to drive an underpowered car fast, than a powered car slow".

I still think that the new K24 in the Si will likely find more sales because it's more accessible. I shudder at the realization that an SMG6 with the K24 would really, really make a lot of sense.


JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 13:20
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TonyE wrote:
Jeff wrote:


sorry Tony, the K24 was just updated for the '11 TSX with a bunch of stuff, all of it designed to minimize friction. The power and torque ratings remained the same after all the changes, and the Civic Si motor is actually rated slightly lower (200hp/170lb-ft vs 201/172). Maybe the Si's intake plumbing is a little more restrictive or something due to the engine bay constraints?

The Civic LX/EX feels really, really underpowered to me.




Jeff, I'm driving a CRV EX-L AWD (24mpg) , Fit MT5 (36mpg) and HCH (38 mpg).

You, well, you got you Odyssey, Si and S2K (that right?).

To me, the Civic LX/EX feel fast enough.

It's all a matter of viewpoint, You represent an outlier, way out on the power side. I, today, represent the other outlier, way out on the side of fuel efficiency. Most people are in the middle.

BTW, here's food for thought. As my cars were getting faster, I realized that at the limit, if something happened I could really GET HURT.... so now I'm driving cars that I car push and I'm having a lot of fun...

Like they said: "It's more fun to drive an underpowered car fast, than a powered car slow".

I still think that the new K24 in the Si will likely find more sales because it's more accessible. I shudder at the realization that an SMG6 with the K24 would really, really make a lot of sense.




I just really dislike the operating characteristics of the R18. It's like automotive Ambien. Slow to rev, not all that smooth when you do rev it, and it just feels lazy and unresponsive in general. Like a teenager. I know if you whip it hard with the MT it puts up decent acceleration numbers, but the fact that there's no fun side awaiting your whim really turns me off. It's extremely un-Honda-like in that respect. I hope they have done something to change that for 2012. A more aggressive throttle mapping would go a long ways, I think.

The Fit is only barely adequately powered, but at least when you rev it out it responds and gets spunky and is fun to drive. I find it difficult to have fun driving the R18-powered Civics, and that makes me sad.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 15:16
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Jeff wrote:


I just really dislike the operating characteristics of the R18. It's like automotive Ambien. Slow to rev, not all that smooth when you do rev it, and it just feels lazy and unresponsive in general. Like a teenager. I know if you whip it hard with the MT it puts up decent acceleration numbers, but the fact that there's no fun side awaiting your whim really turns me off. It's extremely un-Honda-like in that respect. I hope they have done something to change that for 2012. A more aggressive throttle mapping would go a long ways, I think.

The Fit is only barely adequately powered, but at least when you rev it out it responds and gets spunky and is fun to drive. I find it difficult to have fun driving the R18-powered Civics, and that makes me sad.



Just you think, we have the VTEC R18, not the i-DSI version.

Perhaps this is the reason why the Civic's R18 is only offered with an AT5. Does Hondata provide a reflash? Is there even a market now that the MT5 is not offered with it?

Heck, if anything, I could see AHM introduce the R20 for the EX next year. That motor has more torque and that would make the EX/AT5 move smartly for the buyer.

Anyhow, the R engine was designed to be a fuel efficient enginer. Wong ran that excellent article on TOVA that explained it. So, I'm not surprised that this motor is not meant for zooming around.

In the R15 the engine is small enough that it zooms up very well... heck with the MT5 the engine is always zooming (3900 rpm at 80mph).

And yes... the Fit is, ahem, barely adequate for TOV'rs. But for most of the population it's a rocket. Yeah.. sad to say, huh?

I just got this feeling that the Fit is the car that is supposed to take over the Civic's spot. It's a very fun car to drive, it's relatively cheap, it offers a lot of value and could easily use a 160bhp K16 motor. I figure a Fit Si with 160bhp/MT6/Navi and proper discs all around could sell for 22K. A full 5K less than the Si.




sugaki
Profile for sugaki
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 15:50
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sadlerau wrote:
No argument the K20 will be quicker if your in the right gear. But in normal give and take daily driving? Is this where Honda is taking us - cars for the average driver??


Ironically, for daily/normal driving I think the K20 is actually better. Normal driving you're typically under 4k. If you look at the torque curves for the K24 and K20, the torque is actually flat and consistent for the K20, and you have much more under 4k. The K24 only starts getting more than the K20 at 4.2k. Torque for the K24 is peakey, whereas for the K20 it stays pretty even.

Which is why I always shot down the notion of a K24 being more mass-market friendly. There's more torque, but the vast majority of the population wouldn't take it to 5.2k RPM on any regular basis, if ever at all.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Eh, you misread the dyno plot [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 16:32
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sugaki wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
No argument the K20 will be quicker if your in the right gear. But in normal give and take daily driving? Is this where Honda is taking us - cars for the average driver??


Ironically, for daily/normal driving I think the K20 is actually better. Normal driving you're typically under 4k. If you look at the torque curves for the K24 and K20, the torque is actually flat and consistent for the K20, and you have much more under 4k. The K24 only starts getting more than the K20 at 4.2k. Torque for the K24 is peakey, whereas for the K20 it stays pretty even.

Which is why I always shot down the notion of a K24 being more mass-market friendly. There's more torque, but the vast majority of the population wouldn't take it to 5.2k RPM on any regular basis, if ever at all.



Sorry but Sugaki from TOV doesn't seem to understand how to read a dyno plot.

The more likely explanation is that the K24Z3 makes more torque than the K20Z3 pretty much everywhere in the curve.

The purpose of a dyno chart is to show both the horsepower and torque curves of a given engine. Below 5252 rpms, the absolute torque figure will ALWAYS be greater than the horsepower figure. Conversely, an engine will ALWAYS have a higher horsepower figure than torque above 5252 rpms. The horsepower and torque curves will ALWAYS intersect at exactly 5252 rpms. You can't come to any broadbrush conclusions comparing two separate cars if you're unable to read a dyno plot.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Eh, you misread the dyno plot [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 17:10
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Jeff wrote:


The more likely explanation is that the K24Z3 makes more torque than the K20Z3 pretty much everywhere in the curve.

The purpose of a dyno chart is to show both the horsepower and torque curves of a given engine. Below 5252 rpms, the absolute torque figure will ALWAYS be greater than the horsepower figure. Conversely, an engine will ALWAYS have a higher horsepower figure than torque above 5252 rpms. The horsepower and torque curves will ALWAYS intersect at exactly 5252 rpms. You can't come to any broadbrush conclusions comparing two separate cars if you're unable to read a dyno plot.




Jeff! You could have explained where 5252 comes from...

Given:

(Torque x Engine speed) / 5,252 = Horsepower

Then, when engine speed = 5252

Torque x (5252/5252) = Horsepower.

Torque = Horsepower

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm


"But engine speed is normally referred to in revolutions per minute (RPM). Since we want a "per second," we need to convert RPMs to "something per second." The seconds are easy -- we just divide by 60 to get from minutes to seconds. Now what we need is a dimensionless unit for revolutions: a radian. A radian is actually a ratio of the length of an arc divided by the length of a radius, so the units of length cancel out and you're left with a dimensionless measure.

­You can think of a revolution as a measurement of an angle. One revolution is 360 degrees of a circle. Since the circumference of a circle is (2 x pi x radius), there are 2-pi radians in a revolution. To convert revolutions per minute to radians per second, you multiply RPM by (2-pi/60), which equals 0.10472 radians per second. This gives us the "per second" we need to calculate horsepower.

Let's put this all together. We need to get to horsepower, which is 550 foot-pounds per second, using torque (pound-feet) and engine speed (RPM). If we divide the 550 foot-pounds by the 0.10472 radians per second (engine speed), we get 550/0.10472, which equals 5,252.

So if you multiply torque (in pound-feet) by engine speed (in RPM) and divide the product by 5,252, RPM is converted to "radians per second" and you can get from torque to horsepower -- from "pound-feet" to "foot-pounds per second."
"


I supposed that the metric calculations are different. I haven't bothered to look for them. I wonder, have you ever looked at a metric dynometer?


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 17:13
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This is one of the fundamental problems I have with this engine choice.

1) If the K20 is making more than adequate torque to get around, then what are the chances you are actually utilizing the additional quantity produced by the K24? I mean realistically, the additional torque is useless up to the point the K20 is unable to make more. But in normal driving situations, the K20 is typically required to produce some value below its maximum, and thus a K24 will simply be further from its maximum capacity in that same situation.

2) If you are actually full throttle and accelerating at maximum ability, the K24 will hold an advantage to about 35MPH when the K20 hits VTEC. After that, there is no advantage. Even assuming the K20 is not a 2011 and is significantly weaker by peaking in the low 180 range, there is still going to be no advantage beyond that point.

Yes, you can argue that "you won't have to wrap it out" but that is a flawed premise IMO, because if the K20 needs VTEC to keep up with the situation, then the K24 is going to need similar power in the same situation.

In the situations I typically drive in, which is below 3K, the K24 has ~10 lb-ft advantage.

3) Most of the NA DOHC i-VTEC K20's have similar curve shapes. I think this is pretty indicative of just how advanced the K20 really is, considering that the SHAPE of the curve kicks the snot out of the K24. If they had provided more torque, and kept that shape (even improved it by re-tuning the VTEC crossover) the results would have been better. I think any torque rating between 150-160 lb-ft on the Si would have levered the equation in its favor, especially with a retuned crossover.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 17:20
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TonyE wrote:
Jeff wrote:


sorry Tony, the K24 was just updated for the '11 TSX with a bunch of stuff, all of it designed to minimize friction. The power and torque ratings remained the same after all the changes, and the Civic Si motor is actually rated slightly lower (200hp/170lb-ft vs 201/172). Maybe the Si's intake plumbing is a little more restrictive or something due to the engine bay constraints?

The Civic LX/EX feels really, really underpowered to me.




Jeff, I'm driving a CRV EX-L AWD (24mpg) , Fit MT5 (36mpg) and HCH (38 mpg).

You, well, you got you Odyssey, Si and S2K (that right?).

To me, the Civic LX/EX feel fast enough.

It's all a matter of viewpoint, You represent an outlier, way out on the power side. I, today, represent the other outlier, way out on the side of fuel efficiency. Most people are in the middle.

BTW, here's food for thought. As my cars were getting faster, I realized that at the limit, if something happened I could really GET HURT.... so now I'm driving cars that I car push and I'm having a lot of fun...

Like they said: "It's more fun to drive an underpowered car fast, than a powered car slow".

I still think that the new K24 in the Si will likely find more sales because it's more accessible. I shudder at the realization that an SMG6 with the K24 would really, really make a lot of sense.




The problem with a "more accessible engine" in the Si, is that the rest of the car is NOT designed to be "more accessible." The people who are likely to want "accessible" powertrains are not going to like the hard ride, small/tight seats, and racy image/setup. They aren't likely to want an MT. And if they do, there are cars that provide a lot more "access" at similar RPM's for similar price.

The EP3 was "more accessible" too, and Honda enthusiasts by and large hated it.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 18:05
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We don't know the gearing.

The new K24 could use taller gears for similar acceleration but lower RPM.

(1) Better mileage, (2.4 not much heavier than 2.0, huh?)
(2) Quieter. Less RPM at speed when cruising.

sugaki
Profile for sugaki
Re: Eh, you misread the dyno plot [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 18:09
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Jeff wrote:
Sorry but Sugaki from TOV doesn't seem to understand how to read a dyno plot.


Whoops, I was looking at the HP curve instead of the torque curve. The torque's better across the board with the K24.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Eh, you misread the dyno plot [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 18:20
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hmm.. for the metric units, I get 9549 rpm..

P (kw) = (T (Nm) X RPM ) / 9549

I knew it! European motors have higher redlines because they're metric!


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 21:10
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TonyE wrote:
We don't know the gearing.

The new K24 could use taller gears for similar acceleration but lower RPM.

(1) Better mileage, (2.4 not much heavier than 2.0, huh?)
(2) Quieter. Less RPM at speed when cruising.



Based on FE, the gearing is probably all but identical to the TSX's. I.E. it still isn't going to have much of an advantage, as most of us have been saying. It is unlikely that a K24 with current Si gearing would be A) effective from an acceptance standpoint, and B) would improve economy (although 6th in the current Si is taller than 6th in the TSX).

Couple a short HP gain in the low end, with a marginal weight loss, and similar gearing, and AT BEST you are looking at probably a couple 10ths in the quarter mile. IMO, not a big enough deal to warrant the loss of character. The K20Z3 is smoother, more revvy and more playful. As you can see from the dyno, while it doesn't have more total torque, it DOES have a MUCH better powerband. It is worlds better than the K24's which only manages a huge swell over about 2,500 RPM anyway.

I still would rather have seen Honda actually put some effort into the game and actually produce an engine that met both needs.

ezshift5
Profile for ezshift5
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 14:22
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As Tony(E) points out, we don't know the gearing.

All I know - it's a given: the 6M TSX is 7 flat/15.4 60/QM capable.

2012 Civic Si loses 500 critical pounds with essentially same power rating. You figure it out.

UFN, it's on my short list (replacing Mustang 6M, BMW 6M and Acura 6M all of which have deal breakers in my view....

Interesting.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 16:03
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ezshift5 wrote:
As Tony(E) points out, we don't know the gearing.

All I know - it's a given: the 6M TSX is 7 flat/15.4 60/QM capable.

2012 Civic Si loses 500 critical pounds with essentially same power rating. You figure it out.

UFN, it's on my short list (replacing Mustang 6M, BMW 6M and Acura 6M all of which have deal breakers in my view....

Interesting.



Gearing will most likely be taller than TSX.

Do the math. (Most 0-60 times for the TSX are actually in the 7.2-7.4 second range, and the 1/4's are in the mid 15's. The Si runs ~.5 seconds faster in each metric. Subtract .1 second for each 100 lbs of weight loss (an accepted metric for performance gain with weight loss) and the Civic Si will be about .5 seconds faster than the TSX with the same engine, or nearly identically as fast as it is right now. If the Civic loses weight, it will gain incrementally over the current car, but then some of that might be offset by taller gearing. Even if the gearing remains the same (it will not be lower than TSX), it will be incrementally faster (only about another .1 if the new car loses 100 lb). Add that to what will probably be another incremental gain before 35MPH due to the additional power before the K20 hits VTEC, and you are looking at a car that is most likely a couple of tenths faster than the current car. That is assuming that the little bit of extra power the K20 carries up top doesn't erode the advantage the K24 built up to 35MPH (i.e. the K20 and K24 have identical performance through the top end region, allowing the K24 to maintain 100% of the margin it created off the line).

Its funny how all of a sudden everyone is spewing gearing, gearing, gearing, when previously the discussions were the gearing wasn't going to matter because the K24 had so much additional power it didn't matter. Now that we know that isn't the case, people are clinging to gearing. Unfortunately, we KNOW that it won't be any shorter than the TSX, which already has short gearing, because it wouldn't allow Honda to take advantage of the extra torque, and would adversely affect MPG. It would also cause the complaints of having to shift all of the time to persist. I personally think it will be about identical to TSX gearing, perhaps with a taller 6th gear (which is currently SHORTER than the K20 SI's 6th gear), since it would allow about equal performance and is fairly well matched to the K24's power band and would allow a slight uptick in MPG. Since they don't need as much gearing to move a lighter car, they would probably see it as beneficial to prop up MPG. However, some here believe it will have to be taller than the TSX due to the tire's effect on gearing, and the fact that it would likely have to shift to 3rd before 60. There is a lot of merit to that arguement as well.

carzak
Profile for carzak
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 16:36
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Gearing will most likely be taller than TSX.


I personally think it will be about identical to TSX gearing, perhaps with a taller 6th gear


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 16:52
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carzak wrote:
Gearing will most likely be taller than TSX.


I personally think it will be about identical to TSX gearing, perhaps with a taller 6th gear




Shawn and Jeff say taller, I say about the same (with just enough change to prevent a 2-3 shift by 60 + a taller 6th for MPG). Shawn is more knowledgable, so his positions holds merit.

Not quite as contradictory as you had hoped is it?



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 17:45
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carzak wrote:
Gearing will most likely be taller than TSX.


I personally think it will be about identical to TSX gearing, perhaps with a taller 6th gear




As it sits now, the TSX engine would redline in 2nd gear at 52MPH with Si size tires (Michelin quotes 845 revs/mile).

That is unlikely to be left unadjusted because of the OEM emphasis on being able to hit 60MPH as quickly as possible. So I would expect at least 2nd gear to be taller.

The Si also has a 6th gear ratio of .659 compared to the TSX's ratio of .690. so I also expect that to change as the lighter car won't need it, and it would improve highway MPG slightly giving you about 3 MPH extra at 3000 RPM.

Other than that, they might raise 3rd slightly, as it will redline at 74MPH in 3rd, and that is 2 fairly closely spaced shifts.

The more I actually calculate it out, the more Shawn and Jeff are probably correct. Of course, that really starts to mitigate the K24's torque advantage.

As it stands now, the gearing % is as follows:

Si

1st - 3.267 (x4.76) = 15.55
2nd - 2.130 (x4.76) = 10.14
3rd - 1.517 (x4.76) = 7.22
4th - 1.147 (x4.76) = 5.46
5th - .921 (x4.76) = 4.38
6th - .659 (x4.76) = 3.14

TSX

1st - 3.27 (x4.76) = 15.56 (these are effectively equal in both trannies)
2nd - 2.04 (x4.76) = 9.71 (-4%)
3rd - 1.43 (x4.76) = 6.81 (-6%)
4th - 1.07 (x4.76) = 5.09 (-7%)
5th - .87 (x 4.76) = 4.14 (-5%)
6th - .69 (x4.76) = 3.28 (+4%)

Assuming that Honda kept gearing identical, the K24 will put about 15-17% additional torque to the ground in the range where it has such an advantage. Once both engines are in VTEC, it will put down about 5-6% less on average (considering both engines are roughly equal beyond that point), assuming TSX gearing. Since 1st is roughly the same on both (I suspect both gears are identical, but Acura doesn't carry the ratio out as many decimals), it will put its full 22% down in 1st, through the part of the band where it is producing it. It isn't unreasonable that if Shawn and Jeff are correct, and Honda does alter the gearing, that we end up with an average of 10-12% lower gear multiplication in the Si's transmission, which still gives the K24 an advantage from 3-6K, but really drops it everywhere else, and gives the current K20 a rather considerable advantage through the top end, and nearly equal production below 3K.

Perhaps if I feel like it, I will go through with the TSX's gearing and the assumed "fantasy" powerband and see how they actually compared by thousands of RPM in each gear.


carzak
Profile for carzak
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 17:45
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Well, then say "Gearing will most likely be taller than the TSX, according to Jeff and Shawn." Otherwise people tend to assume assertions you make reflect your position.





owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 17:55
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carzak wrote:
Well, then say "Gearing will most likely be taller than the TSX, according to Jeff and Shawn." Otherwise people tend to assume assertions you make reflect your position.







Or you can just get over it. You are simply looking for a reason to try and make me look bad. Otherwise, you would follow me from thread to thread making stupid comments.

If I explain who wants what, you attack me for not having concise posts. If I shorten shit up, you bitch I wasn't specific enough.

Maybe you should just move on.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 18:04
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carzak wrote:
Well, then say "Gearing will most likely be taller than the TSX, according to Jeff and Shawn." Otherwise people tend to assume assertions you make reflect your position.







P.S. Had you actually read the post above your first one, instead of being so excited to try and start shit, you would have seen the following statement right at the end:

"However, some here believe it will have to be taller than the TSX due to the tire's effect on gearing, and the fact that it would likely have to shift to 3rd before 60. There is a lot of merit to that arguement as well."

So without naming names, I basically had already said what you criticized me for.

So, do me a favor. If you are going to attack, at least attempt to read and comprehend what I say first, otherwise you will end up looking stupid and I won't, which is your intent.

If you don't want to read and comprehend what I wrote, because it is too long, or too windy, or whatever, that is fine and won't hurt my feelings any. However, spare me the annoyance of the ankle biting. I don't really care if you read my stuff, or care what I have to say. But if you are going to attack and criticize me for it, it would behoove you to have your facts straight beforehand.

If you can't meet one of the above conditions, I will just ignore you like the other trolls who baselessly attack.

carzak
Profile for carzak
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2011 19:29
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See, you can't even say "fuck off" without taking 3 posts and providing an analysis of gearing that nobody asked for.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2011 00:48
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carzak wrote:
See, you can't even say "fuck off" without taking 3 posts and providing an analysis of gearing that nobody asked for.



I am not trying to tell you to fuck off. I am trying to tell you to participate intelligently, or I will just pass right over you. There is no reason to say fuck off because the choice is yours.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2011 17:54
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owequitit wrote:


The problem with a "more accessible engine" in the Si, is that the rest of the car is NOT designed to be "more accessible." The people who are likely to want "accessible" powertrains are not going to like the hard ride, small/tight seats, and racy image/setup. They aren't likely to want an MT. And if they do, there are cars that provide a lot more "access" at similar RPM's for similar price.

The EP3 was "more accessible" too, and Honda enthusiasts by and large hated it.



You'd be surprised at how many kids want cars that "look fast" but have an automatic and are easy to drive.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-21-2011 23:51
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TonyE wrote:
owequitit wrote:


The problem with a "more accessible engine" in the Si, is that the rest of the car is NOT designed to be "more accessible." The people who are likely to want "accessible" powertrains are not going to like the hard ride, small/tight seats, and racy image/setup. They aren't likely to want an MT. And if they do, there are cars that provide a lot more "access" at similar RPM's for similar price.

The EP3 was "more accessible" too, and Honda enthusiasts by and large hated it.



You'd be surprised at how many kids want cars that "look fast" but have an automatic and are easy to drive.



Yes, and I am sure that is why the Mugen Si was such a hit...

Kids aren't quite as stupid as you give them credit for. Any enthusiast that would even remotely be in the market for an Si isn't hanging posters of Gremlins and Insights on their wall. They are hanging Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc on the walls, all of which have the distinction of being lusty mechanical pieces with a well defined identity. When I hear Ferrari, I KNOW what it entails, and I know what I am getting. When I hear GTI for that matter, I KNOW what that entails and what I am getting.

Mark my words, this car is not going to be widely embraced by the enthusiasts because it isn't faster relative to the competition, and it has completely forgone the one thing that made the Si worth considering over much faster cars. It might still be balanced, but it won't have the same soul. It just isn't the same. Period. If Honda wanted to use a low revvy, cheap engine with no soul, then it needed boost to keep up with the jones's. As it is, this chassis is unlikely to be tuned as aggressively as cars like the MS3, and it will be severely underpowered to boot. I.E. If I am a car guy that doesn't have some emotional attachment to Honda or the Si, I have little reason to buy it. Especially with the growing media stigma against Honda and the perception they are slipping in quality, etc. If I am a die hard Honda fan, this car probably doesn't offer what excited me about Honda in the first place, which means I have less loyalty to the product that I would have had otherwise.

And the kids who only care what a car looks like and don't want a manual, aren't going to be looking for an Si. They are going to be looking for an EX, perhaps with an HFP kit tacked on for good measure and some wheels.

The Si never has appealed to the appearance demographic, and should NEVER appeal to that demographic. That isn't what it is, nor what it should be. It would be like Ferrari building a soft floaty, 20 foot long luxo barge with bench seats and no mechanical soul. It just wouldn't work.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Power curve similar 6k-7k.. who would win? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-22-2011 23:10
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owequitit wrote:
TonyE wrote:
owequitit wrote:


The problem with a "more accessible engine" in the Si, is that the rest of the car is NOT designed to be "more accessible." The people who are likely to want "accessible" powertrains are not going to like the hard ride, small/tight seats, and racy image/setup. They aren't likely to want an MT. And if they do, there are cars that provide a lot more "access" at similar RPM's for similar price.

The EP3 was "more accessible" too, and Honda enthusiasts by and large hated it.



You'd be surprised at how many kids want cars that "look fast" but have an automatic and are easy to drive.



Yes, and I am sure that is why the Mugen Si was such a hit...

Kids aren't quite as stupid as you give them credit for. Any enthusiast that would even remotely be in the market for an Si isn't hanging posters of Gremlins and Insights on their wall. They are hanging Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc on the walls, all of which have the distinction of being lusty mechanical pieces with a well defined identity. When I hear Ferrari, I KNOW what it entails, and I know what I am getting. When I hear GTI for that matter, I KNOW what that entails and what I am getting.

Mark my words, this car is not going to be widely embraced by the enthusiasts because it isn't faster relative to the competition, and it has completely forgone the one thing that made the Si worth considering over much faster cars. It might still be balanced, but it won't have the same soul. It just isn't the same. Period. If Honda wanted to use a low revvy, cheap engine with no soul, then it needed boost to keep up with the jones's. As it is, this chassis is unlikely to be tuned as aggressively as cars like the MS3, and it will be severely underpowered to boot. I.E. If I am a car guy that doesn't have some emotional attachment to Honda or the Si, I have little reason to buy it. Especially with the growing media stigma against Honda and the perception they are slipping in quality, etc. If I am a die hard Honda fan, this car probably doesn't offer what excited me about Honda in the first place, which means I have less loyalty to the product that I would have had otherwise.

And the kids who only care what a car looks like and don't want a manual, aren't going to be looking for an Si. They are going to be looking for an EX, perhaps with an HFP kit tacked on for good measure and some wheels.

The Si never has appealed to the appearance demographic, and should NEVER appeal to that demographic. That isn't what it is, nor what it should be. It would be like Ferrari building a soft floaty, 20 foot long luxo barge with bench seats and no mechanical soul. It just wouldn't work.



What's really telling is the day the 2011 Si goes off market and the highest redlining engine Honda has is 7300RPM, while Nissan and Ford both offer engines with a 7500RPM redline in much larger displacement.


 
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