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  TOV News > Virtual Dyno Comparo: 2011 Honda Civic Si vs 2012 Honda Civic Si > > Re: Only a minor setback, I think

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6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
An engine for the non enthusiast [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 12:24
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More torque across the range - lower peak HP = BORING.
Bye Bye VTEC RUSH. I'm sure the general public will like it, I certainly will not. S2K for ever!!!!!

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 12:33
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6SPDTL wrote:
More torque across the range - lower peak HP = BORING.
Bye Bye VTEC RUSH. I'm sure the general public will like it, I certainly will not. S2K for ever!!!!!



After driving the '11 TSX 6MT for a week, i would say this engine won't be as fun to drive overall as a nice K20Z3 (particularly one that's been reflashed) but I don't think I'd go as far as to say it would be BORING. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Si will still be a lot of fun to drive. I was surprised by how good this K24Z3 engine felt in the TSX. Despite the fact that NOTHING has changed in terms of power output, this engine just seems to rev much more quickly and willingly than any past TSX 6MT I've driven, and it helped keep the car feeling reasonably quick. The torque surge between 3000-6000 rpms gets the car zipping aling nicely when you need it, and in a 400-500lb lighter Civic Si, it should really put you back in your seat. It doesn't sound bad but it's nothing like a K20Z3 or F20C at full song.

Hopefully one day we'll have a full-tilt DOHC i-VTEC setup once again in the Si or some other sporty Acura, but this engine will hold its own. It's just probably going to be a dead end for tuners straight out of the gate.

6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 14:19
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I'm sure that the average driver that has never driven the classic VTEC engines will not care and it will probably be close to the present Si speedwise. But those guys will not know the fun they are missing! :) No more "hold on yo, the vtec is comming on!" LOL
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 14:40
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6SPDTL wrote:
I'm sure that the average driver that has never driven the classic VTEC engines will not care and it will probably be close to the present Si speedwise. But those guys will not know the fun they are missing! :) No more "hold on yo, the vtec is comming on!" LOL


The past repeats itself... this is not new.

IMHO, the "classic" motor we're referring to is the B18C (B18C1 with dual intake runners, not the B18C5 from the ITR). That motor did not have a VTEC kick, it was smooth and it had the best sound.

And that baby zoomed.

(Note: I think the B16C was too small).

Oh, you should try the H22A from the SH.... woohoo...now, THAT had a VTEC kick... too much, IMHO. But, you felt and heard that.

I don't think the B18C and H22A were as good as the K20s, but very exciting.

However, the shifters of yore pale in comparison's with the current ones. So I dare say that even a more "boring" motor with a more accurate shifter is faster.

Remember that -except for the GSR- all Integras were considered to be boring because of their smooth, flat torque curves.

I think we're just going back to the "smooth torque" side of the VTEC pendulum.



garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 19:36
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I don't think it matters what's faster. I mean, if the EP3's engine was in in the 1999-2000 Si, it would move that car faster than having it's original 1.6, but would it be as fun? probably not, and that was proven when the EP3 itself was released. There's a reason why the type R of the EP3 era had the same engine that revs up to 8000rpms.

A K24 will probably be a bit faster than the current Si, It will just not be as fun. I'd take the 1999-2000 Si any day over both the EP3 and the 9th Civic Si.

I believe the 9th Gen Civic Si would make an Excellent Civic EX. or Civic "Sport".

The 9th Gen Si should have been a K20 pumping 220hp at ~8500 revs, or a K24 pumping out 240hp at 8000 revs.

A 2.4Liter with 200hp and 170 lb/ft torque is considered good torque. However, if honda had released the same 2.4 with 240hp at 8000rpms, 170 lb/ft tq, the "public" would complain about lack of torque again.

Evidence of that is that the EP3 provided the extra torque that the 1999-2000 Si lacked, but when they tweaked the K20 for the FG2, suddenly the torque was not considered enough by "the public".

"The public" makes me sick.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 21:35
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TonyE wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
I'm sure that the average driver that has never driven the classic VTEC engines will not care and it will probably be close to the present Si speedwise. But those guys will not know the fun they are missing! :) No more "hold on yo, the vtec is comming on!" LOL


The past repeats itself... this is not new.

IMHO, the "classic" motor we're referring to is the B18C (B18C1 with dual intake runners, not the B18C5 from the ITR). That motor did not have a VTEC kick, it was smooth and it had the best sound.

And that baby zoomed.

(Note: I think the B16C was too small).

Oh, you should try the H22A from the SH.... woohoo...now, THAT had a VTEC kick... too much, IMHO. But, you felt and heard that.

I don't think the B18C and H22A were as good as the K20s, but very exciting.

However, the shifters of yore pale in comparison's with the current ones. So I dare say that even a more "boring" motor with a more accurate shifter is faster.

Remember that -except for the GSR- all Integras were considered to be boring because of their smooth, flat torque curves.

I think we're just going back to the "smooth torque" side of the VTEC pendulum.





I was never too impressed with the B18C. It was a great engine, and was quick when rung out, but I never liked the total lack of bottom end. The same sort of applied to the H22, although with an extra half a liter and a similar powerband, it was more tolerable.

The biggest reason I like the K20 is that the torque curve is incredibly flat from 2K on, and really puts to rest the myth of no bottom end Hondas. Even if people on the internet want to pretend it doesn't. Yeah, it is less torque than many LARGER engines, but that goes without saying. The fact is that they have taken the torque produced and maximized its availability. I can only wish to know what VTC on both ends, and more advanced intake and exhaust plumbing would have done, especially when coupled with a proper tune.

As far as subjective things like the sounds and feel, I agree that the B series engines seemed like they just couldn't be revved enough. While I like the H22's more baritone growl, it was not quite as top happy, although it was certainly happier than the K24 is. That engine just has too much stroke IMO.

Interestingly, the H22 featured both the dual stage IM AND the delayed VTEC crossover. For some reason the B series and C series never did though.

6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 23:32
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I have an s2K 2.2L :)
6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2011 23:36
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We'll get to try out the "new" engine soon enough. I'm sure that though its the same TSX engine it will have it own little flavor.
garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Only a minor setback, I think [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-19-2011 00:20
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6SPDTL wrote:
We'll get to try out the "new" engine soon enough. I'm sure that though its the same TSX engine it will have it own little flavor.


Vanilla Coke still tastes like Coke.


 
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