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  TOV News > Ward's Auto Confirms: Honda Cancels Acura Diesel > > Re: Disappointing

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CarPhreakD
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Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 12:11
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As in the article:

Schaeffer says. “People don’t make those kinds of announcements without expecting to meet emissions standards.”

So what the heck happened? This leaves me confused.

mobomofo
Profile for mobomofo
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 13:31
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*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.

civicdrivr
Profile for civicdrivr
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 13:41
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Diesel prices is my guess. Petrol seems to be dropping some, but diesel is still $1-1.50 more than regular unleaded in my area.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 14:18
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mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.



A shrug and "it doesn't matter anyways" kind of attitude won't get you anywhere in life.

And what is the "right step"? Pedal power? Splitting and combining water molecules? Giant-ass batteries?

You can't just say "this is a step the wrong direction", because there are no fuels and fuel systems that are as prolific and cheap as gasoline, unless you use your two feet (either to walk or pedal). Diesel is probably the second most prolific vehicle fuel, and the technology has several areas where big improvements could be made. But, like petrol engines, the technology is there and simply needs tweaking, which is why it can be considered a logical "step".

Ultimately, I think that at least over the next century a variety of fuels will be used, without any single one dominating until technology favours it.

Powered by Honda
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Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 14:37
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diesel is more expensive then gas and the premium of buying the diesel model just makes it not worth it.

Those 2 combined....I can buy gasoline car and drive for a 5 years with still being cheaper then the diesel.

I think this is a smart move by Honda. NA is not ready for Diesel....maybe not even after 2010!

JeffreynLA
Profile for JeffreynLA
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 14:59
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mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 15:18
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Powered by Honda wrote:
diesel is more expensive then gas and the premium of buying the diesel model just makes it not worth it.

Those 2 combined....I can buy gasoline car and drive for a 5 years with still being cheaper then the diesel.

I think this is a smart move by Honda. NA is not ready for Diesel....maybe not even after 2010!



That's the way it looks right now, but as we've seen with price fluctuations, who knows when these price differences are going to change?

In Kitchener/Waterloo, diesel fuel is around the same price as premium fuel.... which the TSX requires.

Not to mention that even the price difference between premium and regular changes a lot. Right now it's about 7 cents difference, but what about down the road?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 16:06
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JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Actually I don't think the *TSX* needs it that badly, but the question is, does the Acura (or Honda) brand need to get its diesel into the US marketplace? I mean, is it a key to the brand's success, regardless of which model gets it?

arrow15
Profile for arrow15
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 16:28
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Powered by Honda wrote:
diesel is more expensive then gas and the premium of buying the diesel model just makes it not worth it.

Those 2 combined....I can buy gasoline car and drive for a 5 years with still being cheaper then the diesel.

I think this is a smart move by Honda. NA is not ready for Diesel....maybe not even after 2010!


It depends on where you live. Last week, the average for premium gas in CA was about $3.33/gal, while the average for diesel was $3.28/gal. If you run those numbers on about 25 mpg for the gas TSX and 40 mpg for the diesel, the diesel will make up the extra 5 grand cost in just under 100,000 miles. Now if they could get that up front cost to about 1/2 that, that would be spectacular. One other nice thing is that diesel vehicles are exempt from California smog checks, which saves some money and hassle every few years.

iceman6
Profile for iceman6
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 17:02
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Five thousand more for a diesel-powered TSX?? No way it would be that much. My guess is, $2k, and the federal tax credit for 40 MPG cars (e.g Prius, TDI) would pick up 2/3 of that.
arrow15
Profile for arrow15
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 17:15
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iceman6 wrote:
Five thousand more for a diesel-powered TSX??

Yep. Five thousand. My initial thought was somewhere around 2.5k, but it's much higher at this point.

"But such models are still estimated to cost about 500,000 yen ($5,100) more than gasoline engine cars even after sharp price falls of platinum and other precious metals used as catalysts, the paper said, adding that the firm was developing new technology that uses much less platinum."

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2008 17:50
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arrow15 wrote:
iceman6 wrote:
Five thousand more for a diesel-powered TSX??

Yep. Five thousand. My initial thought was somewhere around 2.5k, but it's much higher at this point.

"But such models are still estimated to cost about 500,000 yen ($5,100) more than gasoline engine cars even after sharp price falls of platinum and other precious metals used as catalysts, the paper said, adding that the firm was developing new technology that uses much less platinum."


A price premium that high ($5000) would put the price of the TSX iDTEC at the same level as the more powerful V6 TSX SH-AWD and TL.


Not Good...


Even with the increased efficiencies of diesel versus petrol, the price premium is going to deter a lot of people from getting a diesel TSX.


That doesn't even take into account that the actual fuel cost more, too.


In this current environment, it's good Acura isn't releasing the TSX iDTEC. It could've been an epic fail if they did.

linty
Profile for linty
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 09:22
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Jeff wrote:
JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Actually I don't think the *TSX* needs it that badly, but the question is, does the Acura (or Honda) brand need to get its diesel into the US marketplace? I mean, is it a key to the brand's success, regardless of which model gets it?



I agree completely....At the very least it should be brought over for the Civic or somewhere in the Honda line.

VW is cashing in right now because they always have had the market cornered here in NA.

With VW having troubles keeping up with production demands, waiting lists and here in Canada i believe well over 50-60% of all Jetta's sold have a TDI in them......you think that would tell Honda there is some demand for a diesel in NA.

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 09:38
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linty wrote:
Jeff wrote:
JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Actually I don't think the *TSX* needs it that badly, but the question is, does the Acura (or Honda) brand need to get its diesel into the US marketplace? I mean, is it a key to the brand's success, regardless of which model gets it?



I agree completely....At the very least it should be brought over for the Civic or somewhere in the Honda line.

VW is cashing in right now because they always have had the market cornered here in NA.

With VW having troubles keeping up with production demands, waiting lists and here in Canada i believe well over 50-60% of all Jetta's sold have a TDI in them......you think that would tell Honda there is some demand for a diesel in NA.


After tax credits the Jetta TDI is nearly the same price as a standard Jetta. Honda is saying that iDTEC is going to be $5000 premium and after tax credits you still have to pay $3000 more than a regular model.


That's not good economics for Honda's iDTEC considering diesel already cost more than gas in most parts of NA.

fladdams2k
Profile for fladdams2k
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 17:29
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Well, that's an interesting viewpoint...

However, as many others have stated BMW, MB and VW all see the huge potential of diesel market in the USA. VW has been capitalizing on it for years, and MB and BMW are slated to do so as well. Obviously the market IS, I repeat IS there and Honda would do very well. The sooner they bring it, the better. The i-DTEC would eclipse the Bluetec!

As far as the premium on diesel fuel, the increased mpg more than makes it worth it, and as others point out, the TSX requires premium fuel anyway. Diesel takes LESS refining than gasoline and for years it was actually priced less than gasoline. Further, diesel engines were first developed to run on Peanut Oil and will be a much better platform to convert to an alternative fuel which could be produced here in the States. I for one was looking forward to a Honda diesel so I wouldn't have to stray from the brand to get what I want for my commute - a high mpg, NON-HYBRID, sedan with a Honda Diesel powerplant. Guess I'll be waiting forever....

Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.

DrS2k
Profile for DrS2k
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 18:11
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fladdams2k wrote:
Well, that's an interesting viewpoint...

However, as many others have stated BMW, MB and VW all see the huge potential of diesel market in the USA. VW has been capitalizing on it for years, and MB and BMW are slated to do so as well. Obviously the market IS, I repeat IS there and Honda would do very well. The sooner they bring it, the better. The i-DTEC would eclipse the Bluetec!

As far as the premium on diesel fuel, the increased mpg more than makes it worth it, and as others point out, the TSX requires premium fuel anyway. Diesel takes LESS refining than gasoline and for years it was actually priced less than gasoline. Further, diesel engines were first developed to run on Peanut Oil and will be a much better platform to convert to an alternative fuel which could be produced here in the States. I for one was looking forward to a Honda diesel so I wouldn't have to stray from the brand to get what I want for my commute - a high mpg, NON-HYBRID, sedan with a Honda Diesel powerplant. Guess I'll be waiting forever....

Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.



Amen ... guess I'll have to go buy a TDI Sportswagon instead.

arrow15
Profile for arrow15
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 18:46
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fladdams2k wrote:
Well, that's an interesting viewpoint...

However, as many others have stated BMW, MB and VW all see the huge potential of diesel market in the USA. VW has been capitalizing on it for years, and MB and BMW are slated to do so as well. Obviously the market IS, I repeat IS there and Honda would do very well. The sooner they bring it, the better. The i-DTEC would eclipse the Bluetec!

As far as the premium on diesel fuel, the increased mpg more than makes it worth it, and as others point out, the TSX requires premium fuel anyway. Diesel takes LESS refining than gasoline and for years it was actually priced less than gasoline. Further, diesel engines were first developed to run on Peanut Oil and will be a much better platform to convert to an alternative fuel which could be produced here in the States. I for one was looking forward to a Honda diesel so I wouldn't have to stray from the brand to get what I want for my commute - a high mpg, NON-HYBRID, sedan with a Honda Diesel powerplant. Guess I'll be waiting forever....

Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.


AMEN as well! You are not the only one who does NOT want to see a V6 TSX. I think it's a horrible idea given the looming energy crisis. Yes, fuel prices have dropped substantially, but just you wait, next time they will go even higher. I'm amazed so many people are already forgetting how expensive fuel just was and are ready and rearing to buy V6s, V8s, etc. Once fuel prices shoot through the roof again, dealerships won't be able to give away their V6 TSXs, while the diesels would be flying off the lot and would have waiting lists.

The diesel was a BIG step in the right direction for Honda. They need more engines in the US that are naturally very high efficiency. But they've gone from a 40 MPG diesel to probably a low 20s V6 guzzler. How stupid and shortsighted. The diesel would have had great performance and efficiency. Now the Germans will once again dominate the diesel market, and Honda will have missed their huge window of opportunity to capitalize on the massive diesel interest in the US. They will severely regret this down the line, and will probably scramble to catch up.

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2008 19:00
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fladdams2k wrote:
Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.


I don't see what's wrong with Acura getting V8s and V6s. Acura is a premium brand.

Honda is investing in fuel efficient green technologies, and if you look over at the Honda brand you'll see that 3 or 4 new affordable hybrids are coming, and Honda is already ahead with it's Clarity, and Civic GX.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-01-2008 15:50
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linty wrote:
Jeff wrote:
JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Actually I don't think the *TSX* needs it that badly, but the question is, does the Acura (or Honda) brand need to get its diesel into the US marketplace? I mean, is it a key to the brand's success, regardless of which model gets it?



I agree completely....At the very least it should be brought over for the Civic or somewhere in the Honda line.

VW is cashing in right now because they always have had the market cornered here in NA.

With VW having troubles keeping up with production demands, waiting lists and here in Canada i believe well over 50-60% of all Jetta's sold have a TDI in them......you think that would tell Honda there is some demand for a diesel in NA.



1) Worldwide numbers don't necessarily translate to NA. I bet the % here is much lower. Most Jettas I see running around the states are 2.5L models.

2) VW is "cashing in" on a few thousand cars per year. It is bad business to assume that this means everyone else should get involved too. If Honda, and then Toyota and then GM and everyone else start to offer diesels for a small total market, then NOBODY will cash in, because the market won't be large enough to support the total costs of competing there.

Overall diesel sales are so small in cars that I don't think there is room for more than 1 or 2 niche players.

fladdams2k
Profile for fladdams2k
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-02-2008 00:49
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Cj wrote:
fladdams2k wrote:
Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.


I don't see what's wrong with Acura getting V8s and V6s. Acura is a premium brand.

Honda is investing in fuel efficient green technologies, and if you look over at the Honda brand you'll see that 3 or 4 new affordable hybrids are coming, and Honda is already ahead with it's Clarity, and Civic GX.



Sure, Acura is a premium brand but that doesn't mean they cant set an industry example by leading the way with efficiency AND power. I don't think those two have to be mutually exclusive. Diesels are perfect platforms for obtaining such a balance. Reviews said the i-DTEC performed like a V6; what's not to love?

Regarding the hybrids...I'm simply not interested in more Hybrids. I can appreciate that Honda is bringing more affordable hybrid models to market, but none of them will bring what I am looking for - an alternative to a gasoline engine and the mileage on these new hybrids isn't exactly stellar anyway. The new Insight is supposed to match the Prius' EPA figures..Personally, I think it should be surpassing those numbers significantly, as the Insight will be new and the Prius will have been around for 5 years by the release date. CNG isn't a bad idea, but good luck finding a natural gas filling station (there's 3 within 60 miles of me currently; there was 5 and 2 went out of business). Sure, I could have a home filling assembly installed, but that limits my use of the vehicle to being able to get home before I run out plus the install, additional expenses, etc.

Dont get me wrong, I love performance - I'll probably keep my S2000 forever. But, for me, a diesel Civic netting 50-60's mpg would be the perfect commuter. Without a diesel TSX or Accord, there will never be a diesel Civic. (sigh).


Adv
Profile for Adv
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-02-2008 18:53
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Believe it or not I totally agree that the TSX should not have a V6. Honda's and Acura's lineup is very well defined and segmented. Very few models cannibalize sales from others; and certainly not to a worrying percentage.

If you put a V6 in the TSX people will drop the TL and get a bargain V6 which means the two models seriously overlap in their segments. This would be another violation of Honda/Acura principles; not having your own models compete with each other.

fladdams2k wrote:
Well, that's an interesting viewpoint...

However, as many others have stated BMW, MB and VW all see the huge potential of diesel market in the USA. VW has been capitalizing on it for years, and MB and BMW are slated to do so as well. Obviously the market IS, I repeat IS there and Honda would do very well. The sooner they bring it, the better. The i-DTEC would eclipse the Bluetec!

As far as the premium on diesel fuel, the increased mpg more than makes it worth it, and as others point out, the TSX requires premium fuel anyway. Diesel takes LESS refining than gasoline and for years it was actually priced less than gasoline. Further, diesel engines were first developed to run on Peanut Oil and will be a much better platform to convert to an alternative fuel which could be produced here in the States. I for one was looking forward to a Honda diesel so I wouldn't have to stray from the brand to get what I want for my commute - a high mpg, NON-HYBRID, sedan with a Honda Diesel powerplant. Guess I'll be waiting forever....

Lastly, I am probably alone here, but I don't want to see a V6 TSX ever. The last thing Honda/Acura needs is another premium fuel sucking V6 sedan getting 21-26 mpg. If I wanted that, I'd get a TL. With the RL getting a V8 and the TSX likely getting a V6, it just feels as if Honda is starting to mimic the Big 3 by tossing more cylinders and cubic inches at their R&D problems. We need smaller, powerful and more efficient engines and diesel is the way to obtain that.

IMO, as we're headed towards an energy crisis, less efficient engines from a company as socially responsible as Honda is simply unacceptable.




mobomofo
Profile for mobomofo
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-03-2008 12:47
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CarPhreakD wrote:
A shrug and "it doesn't matter anyways" kind of attitude won't get you anywhere in life.


That's not what I said, but thanks for playing.

mobomofo
Profile for mobomofo
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-03-2008 12:57
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JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Turbo does the same thing while using less expensive fuel.

Acura has a turbo.

What's the problem?

fladdams2k
Profile for fladdams2k
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-03-2008 17:49
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mobomofo wrote:
JeffreynLA wrote:
mobomofo wrote:
*shrugs*

Diesel is a step in the wrong direction anyway.


Explain. You don't think the TSX needs a torquey fuel efficient engine?



Turbo does the same thing while using less expensive fuel.

Acura has a turbo.

What's the problem?




Well the turbo RDX is not terribly efficient and has quite a thirst for premium fuel. Perhaps in a less heavy vehicle it would return better mileage numbers, but no matter what vehicle it's in, the K23's efficiency will never match that of the i-DTEC which makes almost identical power.

halerazor
Profile for halerazor
Re: Disappointing [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2008 01:16
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EVERYONE THANK THE EPA!!!!!! i swear they are in kahoots with the oil companies and trying to destroy the economy. first off diesel use to be dirt cheap until the epa required ultra low sulfur fuel then the price sky rocketed. then automakers had to use a catylitic converters, a diesel particulae filter, egr valve, egr cooler and now urea. the diesel engine honda produces gets 76mpg without any emissions equipment and the 500hp audi LeMans race car gets 89mpg. there isn't a more efficient fuel than diesel right now!! i don't understand the thinking behind the epa why not let a car that gets 3x the mpg pollute a little more than a car that gets 25mpg. if diesel was still a dollar cheaper than gas and better fuel milage why would anyone buy a gas car and the oil comoanies would sale less oil

 
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