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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD

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jes98gsr
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2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 03:08
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Local dealership gave me a loaner TLX while they troubleshoot the TL’s power steering pump, trying to find out why it sounds like a bucket of sandy, rusty bolts when cold. TL-S has 109k miles, TLX has 7.5k miles.

Interior impressions...I generally loathe the avant-garde-nonsense-vogue-button-based transmission gear selectors, but the TLX layout is as intuitive and helpful as might be possible: retaining the traditional PRND layout and locating the parking brake, brake hold, mode selector, and auto shutoff buttons where you might naturally expect them. Gauges, materials, and door-to-dash panel gaps all seem world-class, much better than the TL. Steering wheel diameter and thickness are smaller and thicker respectively than the TL, which I like. I hate all touch screens, especially for controlling HVAC. But the TLX touch screen and flanking buttons are of high quality.

Driving impressions…TLX has a refined, compliant ride with none of the minor croaks, groans, or creaks present in the older car. The TL’s NVH seems to be concentrated on the front and rear suspension mounting points, but I have not chased them down yet. The TLX steering is alarmingly synthetic and disconnected, and I prefer the TL’s feel despite the larger, thinner steering wheel and much slower ratio (even with what I suspect is a bad PS pump). The TLX understeers much more than the TL-S, which has the factory’s big rear sway bar and tucks its tail in nicely while cornering, making it feel agile for a nose-heavy car of its mass and plush spring rate. In Sport+ mode, the TLX has an annoying lurch forward during manual downshifts under braking. The effect is that you feel the drivetrain is countermanding your intent and increasing stopping distance. Weird, ridiculous, and disconcerting, especially since the braking performance is nothing remarkable. Is the torque converter locking up under no/low load? This behavior is not evident in Sport mode. The TLX powertrain’s rev-matching is vastly superior to the TL’s, though this impression is probably magnified by its newer, more supple motor mounts. I am a big fan of the J-series V6, and it was nice to hear this familiar friend clearing its throat in the TLX, despite being lashed to a 9-speed quasi-CVT that will not rev beyond 3k rpm unless you mat the accelerator or shift manually.

Overall, the TLX seems like a nicely packaged and styled sedan. But I am really happy to own the TL.

-James

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 07:20
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Regarding the power steering noise problem, back when we still had our 7G V6 Accord it was common for a leaking hose seal to allow air into the pump causing a groaning, whining noise. A second possibility could be a leak somewhere else in the system. It could also be contaminated or incorrect power steering fluid. As far as I know, Honda doesn't have a change interval for PS fluid which seems odd. Good luck with the repair.

Your complaints about the TLX 9AT are common. The '18 TLX V6 I had for a loaner last fall seemed improved over our MDX. I don't drive our MDX in a sporty-ish manner of any kind so it's not a problem and the car gets great MPG. Replacing the 9AT in the TLX with the older 6AT or the Accord/Odyssey 10AT and swapping the twin-screen center stack for anything else would tempt me into buying one.

loveturtle
Profile for loveturtle
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 09:56
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I had two 2008 TL-S' (one auto, one 6MT) and both had power steering whining issues that were never fully resolved.

When it first began I remember I was told it was the pump, they replaced it and handed it back to me making the exact same, impossible to miss sound.

The consensus was that it was restriction in the ps system and they would do some combination of cleaning the plastic screen in the reservoir, replacing the reservoir, flushing the system thoroughly... each time it would work for a couple months and slowly return.

Good luck with that one...

I had a TLX A-Spec loaner for a bit while my clutch was being replaced and I did not like it.. The 9AT is awful and the safety related computer gizmos were poorly calibrated. During my drive home from work it would constantly tell me that I was going to hit an object. If I was stopped at a red light it would randomly start flashing that I'm about to hit something.. You pretty much had to turn the system off to get it to STFU.

Seating was too high, handling seemed awful in just around town driving.

Interior was great (I had the red leather), LEDs were well placed and very pretty, sound system was excellent.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 12:45
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My impressions between my parents 08 TL and TLX's.

TL, very nice car, DVD audio sounds great, interior very good design, real metal trim was very nice, fake wood was too dark and can barely see any detailing but looks okay, plastics were good, nothing spectacular, everything laid out very well, rear seat room decent, trumk room good, very reliable and well put together, great looking, car drove very well, sporty yet not too sporty to be uncomfortable, very good steering, tech was a little lacking but it is a older car, leather was good, power was good, torque down low was a little lacking but I was used to a V8 at the time.

Based on my limited drive/passenger time. 16 TLX, big step down in interior, blatant cost cutting in so many areas, design is just awful and unappealing. Hated the touchscreen, needlessly difficult to use, putting seat heaters in touchscreen is one of the dumbest things you could possibly do, overall look of the interior just looks chintzy, mom said it looked chintzy, fake silver painted trim looks terrible and cheap, leather felt and looked pretty cheap, grey leather looks terrible, fake wood looks terrible. Gauges did look nice, there is definitely more tech, steering wheel is probably the best thing in the interior, fat and looks and feels decent with several controls. Rear seat room more cramped then TL, not as comfortable or really comfortable at all, trunk shrank, can no longer easily fit 2 golf bags and pull carts where we easily could with the TL. Why did they make the car smaller and more cramped, no reason for it, nobody was asking for that. It is definitely a softer riding/driving car, transmission has a few hiccups but not as bad as many people were saying, V6 has more torque but not as satisfying to get on and rev out, noise sounds almost like a diesel truck when accelerating slowly. Exterior was just okay, boring and too stubby.

18 TLX, the small improvements do make a big difference, added aero effects on the nose, sides and rear gives it a more aggressive look, new grill is ugly from some angles but decent from other angles/closer distances, visible exhaust look good and it was ridiculous they removed them in the first place. Interior touches were better, they were able to get beige leather/black now which makes a huge difference over that ugly dull stark grey plus the dark piping and stitching contrast looks much nicer, leather seems softer and better quality, few small details in the interior help, new fake wood pattern looks better, android auto helps, graphic interface looks a little better. It still mostly drives the same as the 16, still too cost cut, too stubby, needlessly more cramped interior/smaller trunk, but the 6cylinder AWD Tech is a good package for what you pay and compared to the competition.

If Acura does away with the value proposition of the 6 cylinder AWD Tech package and increases the price too much/forces you into a inferior 4 cyl for the same price then buyers like my dad won't buy the TLX and they will lose a lot of sales, dad was going to get a BMW 3/4/5 series after seeing the TLX but the value of the 6 cyl AWD Tech and great deals he was being offered changed his mind.


Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 13:08
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I think this horse has been beaten to death quite a few times.

But I’ll say it again - if it was 3g TL to TLX it’s not really a step down IMO. The problem is that the 4g TL Interior was in a totally different class and they never really replaced it.

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 17:06
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Chris_6MT wrote:
I think this horse has been beaten to death quite a few times.

But I’ll say it again - if it was 3g TL to TLX it’s not really a step down IMO. The problem is that the 4g TL Interior was in a totally different class and they never really replaced it.



Agreed, as I went from a 3G to a 4G SH of which I felt a nice leap forward yet the TLX vs 4G....I really didn’t see that leap....more like a half step forward.

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 20:07
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I also owned a 3G TL brought new and the quality was not on par with the 4G mainly annoying squeaks and rattles in the cabin, the worse was the sunroof rattle. The 4G is built like a tank no rattles even to this day and the materials were a nice step up, hence my disappointment with the TLX, a smaller package could have a much more premium interior, I say TLX is step backward as opposed to a half step forward.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2019 00:51
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jes98gsr wrote:
Local dealership gave me a loaner TLX while they troubleshoot the TL’s power steering pump, trying to find out why it sounds like a bucket of sandy, rusty bolts when cold. TL-S has 109k miles, TLX has 7.5k miles.

Interior impressions...I generally loathe the avant-garde-nonsense-vogue-button-based transmission gear selectors, but the TLX layout is as intuitive and helpful as might be possible: retaining the traditional PRND layout and locating the parking brake, brake hold, mode selector, and auto shutoff buttons where you might naturally expect them. Gauges, materials, and door-to-dash panel gaps all seem world-class, much better than the TL. Steering wheel diameter and thickness are smaller and thicker respectively than the TL, which I like. I hate all touch screens, especially for controlling HVAC. But the TLX touch screen and flanking buttons are of high quality.

Driving impressions…TLX has a refined, compliant ride with none of the minor croaks, groans, or creaks present in the older car. The TL’s NVH seems to be concentrated on the front and rear suspension mounting points, but I have not chased them down yet. The TLX steering is alarmingly synthetic and disconnected, and I prefer the TL’s feel despite the larger, thinner steering wheel and much slower ratio (even with what I suspect is a bad PS pump). The TLX understeers much more than the TL-S, which has the factory’s big rear sway bar and tucks its tail in nicely while cornering, making it feel agile for a nose-heavy car of its mass and plush spring rate. In Sport+ mode, the TLX has an annoying lurch forward during manual downshifts under braking. The effect is that you feel the drivetrain is countermanding your intent and increasing stopping distance. Weird, ridiculous, and disconcerting, especially since the braking performance is nothing remarkable. Is the torque converter locking up under no/low load? This behavior is not evident in Sport mode. The TLX powertrain’s rev-matching is vastly superior to the TL’s, though this impression is probably magnified by its newer, more supple motor mounts. I am a big fan of the J-series V6, and it was nice to hear this familiar friend clearing its throat in the TLX, despite being lashed to a 9-speed quasi-CVT that will not rev beyond 3k rpm unless you mat the accelerator or shift manually.

Overall, the TLX seems like a nicely packaged and styled sedan. But I am really happy to own the TL.

-James



I don't get it... we had an 04 TL which I upgraded with BS RE750 tires which made ALL the difference.

Then we had a 16 TLX SH-AWD. It was all stock.

The TLX understeers a lot less. The trick is to:

(1) Avoid the freewheeling of the transmission. If you go fast, all you need really is the lower four gears. Use the Sport II manual mode and click your gears.

Try to avoid using the 5th to 4th downshift for engine braking, if you get there, tap the brakes momentarily until the dog gear figures it out.

(2) Remember that SH-AWD is counter intuitive. You need to unlearn you notion of when to brake and when to gas it. Do ALL of your braking before (and early) into the turn, then use the gas pedal to go for the apex and exit.. That way you give SH-AWD the power it needs to torque steer you out of the turn. Done this way, it works incredibly well.

Did you find the SH-AWD dash display? Did you use it? I used it a lot to learn how SH-AWD works and how to control it. Done right, you'll see ALL the torque go to the outside rear tire. Once you get there, the handling is very neutral ( indeed, it's like having a RWD with ATTS (*) )...

(3) I much prefer the quality of the interior and materials in the TLX over the TL. Also, did you notice those really COOL steering wheel controls? Specially the left thumbwheel that also works as a Left/Right rocker and as a push button. I really miss that control. It's the best I've ever experienced in my 40++ years of driving.

(*) Imagine a proactive LSD back there... not the typical reactive LSD.



Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2019 07:14
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TonyEX wrote:
jes98gsr wrote:
Local dealership gave me a loaner TLX while they troubleshoot the TL’s power steering pump, trying to find out why it sounds like a bucket of sandy, rusty bolts when cold. TL-S has 109k miles, TLX has 7.5k miles.

Interior impressions...I generally loathe the avant-garde-nonsense-vogue-button-based transmission gear selectors, but the TLX layout is as intuitive and helpful as might be possible: retaining the traditional PRND layout and locating the parking brake, brake hold, mode selector, and auto shutoff buttons where you might naturally expect them. Gauges, materials, and door-to-dash panel gaps all seem world-class, much better than the TL. Steering wheel diameter and thickness are smaller and thicker respectively than the TL, which I like. I hate all touch screens, especially for controlling HVAC. But the TLX touch screen and flanking buttons are of high quality.

Driving impressions…TLX has a refined, compliant ride with none of the minor croaks, groans, or creaks present in the older car. The TL’s NVH seems to be concentrated on the front and rear suspension mounting points, but I have not chased them down yet. The TLX steering is alarmingly synthetic and disconnected, and I prefer the TL’s feel despite the larger, thinner steering wheel and much slower ratio (even with what I suspect is a bad PS pump). The TLX understeers much more than the TL-S, which has the factory’s big rear sway bar and tucks its tail in nicely while cornering, making it feel agile for a nose-heavy car of its mass and plush spring rate. In Sport+ mode, the TLX has an annoying lurch forward during manual downshifts under braking. The effect is that you feel the drivetrain is countermanding your intent and increasing stopping distance. Weird, ridiculous, and disconcerting, especially since the braking performance is nothing remarkable. Is the torque converter locking up under no/low load? This behavior is not evident in Sport mode. The TLX powertrain’s rev-matching is vastly superior to the TL’s, though this impression is probably magnified by its newer, more supple motor mounts. I am a big fan of the J-series V6, and it was nice to hear this familiar friend clearing its throat in the TLX, despite being lashed to a 9-speed quasi-CVT that will not rev beyond 3k rpm unless you mat the accelerator or shift manually.

Overall, the TLX seems like a nicely packaged and styled sedan. But I am really happy to own the TL.

-James



I don't get it... we had an 04 TL which I upgraded with BS RE750 tires which made ALL the difference.

Then we had a 16 TLX SH-AWD. It was all stock.

The TLX understeers a lot less. The trick is to:

(1) Avoid the freewheeling of the transmission. If you go fast, all you need really is the lower four gears. Use the Sport II manual mode and click your gears.

Try to avoid using the 5th to 4th downshift for engine braking, if you get there, tap the brakes momentarily until the dog gear figures it out.

(2) Remember that SH-AWD is counter intuitive. You need to unlearn you notion of when to brake and when to gas it. Do ALL of your braking before (and early) into the turn, then use the gas pedal to go for the apex and exit.. That way you give SH-AWD the power it needs to torque steer you out of the turn. Done this way, it works incredibly well.

Did you find the SH-AWD dash display? Did you use it? I used it a lot to learn how SH-AWD works and how to control it. Done right, you'll see ALL the torque go to the outside rear tire. Once you get there, the handling is very neutral ( indeed, it's like having a RWD with ATTS (*) )...

(3) I much prefer the quality of the interior and materials in the TLX over the TL. Also, did you notice those really COOL steering wheel controls? Specially the left thumbwheel that also works as a Left/Right rocker and as a push button. I really miss that control. It's the best I've ever experienced in my 40++ years of driving.

(*) Imagine a proactive LSD back there... not the typical reactive LSD.


I'd first walk around to the back of the TLX loaner to double-check the "SH-AWD" badge is there. Safety first, right?

I didn't have the TLX V6 FWD loaner car long enough last fall to get completely comfortable with the rear wheel steering feel. I thought the system was pretty aggressive on sharp direction changes. The car did track very nicely on cloverleaf ramps though at double the ramp speeds. I know my daily is an Accord but I was impressed with the TLX.

99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2019 09:57
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I actually just went from a 16' TLX V6 FWD to a '19 V6 Tech and am actually blown away by what all the small changes have done to the car. Most notably the move to the 245 19" tires. These should have been standard from day 1. In the cold or wet you literally had to feather the gas in the old car when taking off. It is obvious the transmission has been tweaked also. I was one of the few that didn't have any issues with '16 though. Overall the car feels more buttoned down/premium and solid than the prior one. I was hesitant to buy the "same" car again but have been pleasantly surprised over the 1st 600 miles. I am confident that the new FMC model will be a hit if the direction stays the same. Acura made the most of the MMC to the existing car.
jes98gsr
Profile for jes98gsr
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2019 03:11
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Thanks for the detailed reply, sorry it's taken me a while to respond...

A few thoughts on TLX vs TL-S handling perceptions:
a) I bought the TL-S in Oct, and have only driven it for ~1500 miles, an admittedly short time. It came with sloshy Road Hugger craptastic tires, which I replaced with Michelin Pilot A/S 3+'s (235/45-17) before finishing its second tank of gas. I have not driven the BS RE750's personally, but I remember that tire and suspect the A/S 3+'s may have similar sidewall stiffness. FWIW, I have burned through a set of both Pilot Super Sports and A/S 3's in 225/40-18 on my other car and perceived their responsiveness to be similar, though the PSS's have more ultimate grip (>50°F). So the TL-S probably has more grip and less sidewall slosh than the TLX loaner.

b) The TL-S has a big rear swaybar, which to my seat of the pants makes turn-in noticeably more immediate and precise than the base model's. Did you upgrade the '04 with the big bar?

c) I took the TLX on my cloverleaf grand prix route here south of LAX. I used safe/sane cornering technique: straight-line braking, rolling on the throttle when car was planted and I had line of sight to corner exit. I did notice the SH-AWD helped crab the car around under power, there just seemed to be a bit more body roll (sidewall compliance?) until the SH-AWD kicked in. I had the SH-AWD graphic up but was far too focused to notice what it was trying to tell me. It just seemed like I had to cane the car pretty hard before the SH-AWD would contribute and make the car more neutral. The TL-S is endearingly linear all the way to ~7/10's. Regardless, I agree with you = once SH-AWD kicks in, the TLX understeers less.

d) Intrigued by your comment on the 5th to 4th downshift. If I ever get more seat time, I will try that brake-tapping technique. The rev-matched downshifting under braking behavior in Sport+ honestly felt to me like a programming error, either in the target rpm (i.e. ~300rpm too high) or the torque converter lockup (I don't know if this transmission's torque converter can even lock up off-throttle).

The TLX is a special car. It is quieter, more comfortable, and much more composed at speed than the TL. SH-AWD is a neat trick. The interior is impressive. I liked the steering wheel buttons but did not notice the left wheel/rocker (doh). I sat down pre-disposed to hate the lever-less transmission controls but ended up admiring their simplicity and familiarity.

jes98gsr
Profile for jes98gsr
Re: 2007 TL-S vs 2018 TLX V6-AWD    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2019 03:41
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Power steering issue update:

a) Dealer replaced the O-ring at the PS pump per the TSB. Seems this was not attempted during the original owner's service stops. Evidently the '07-'08's got new O-rings from the factory, so maybe their servicing dealter simply never looked at it??? Interesting that your '08's had the same issue.

b) Noise on cold startup persisted, noticeable cavitation and gnarly friction sounds. Dealer replaced PS pump under 90-day warranty. But they did not flush fluid, even though it looked like viscous tar and they had to add fluid during the pump replacement! Hence, I flushed it myself. FSM procedure seems a bit risky, so I used steering wheel to pump the old fluid out of the rack (engine off), then replaced the reservoir (which contains a "new" filter), then pulled three clean reservoir loads of fluid through the system by turning the engine on for 2sec at a time. No cavitation except for a brief burst on the first load. Fluid came out pretty clear at the end of the 2nd load.

c) Since this is a known problem area on these cars, I will probably use the reservoir pump/refill method to keep new fluid in the system every oil change interval or so.

I find it odd that there is no service interval for flushing PS fluid, and that the FSM flush procedure flirts with cavitation, which is how pumps blow up. Mix with a typical dealership's "remove and replace" mentality and it seems like a perfect storm for chronic problems.

Then again, I don't recall ever flushing the power steering fluid on my trusty Integra in 13 years and 155k miles of ownership.

Overall, I am pleased = the steering feels tighter and the terrible noises have been eliminated. We shall see how it fares over time...


 
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