[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
BBC: Honda set to close Swindon factory in 2022
More.......................
Nikkei: Honda enters agreement with CATL for battery supply contract through 2027
More.......................
Acura Marks 30 Years Since Debut of Iconic NSX Supercar
More.......................
American Honda reports January sales
More.......................
Acura Marks 15th Anniversary of Super Handling All-Wheel Drive™
More.......................
Honda releases pricing and EPA information for 2019 Passport
More.......................
American Honda Reports December Sales
More.......................
American Honda Reports November Sales
More.......................
General Talk --> Re: Said Goodbye to the MDX Today
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Honda Loses a $38 Million Liability Lawsuit
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: F1 - 2019 Pre-Season Testing - Days 1-4
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Facts about HMA - 60 years of AHM - 50 years of CB750
Join Discussion......
Audio & Electronics --> Re: Lynyrd Skynyrd
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: 2020 Honda Fit Render
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Swindon in peril
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Z6 head studs
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Kandi EV Approved for US
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: DC-R
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Timid AHM marketing
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Poor reliability scores for Honda and Acura
Join Discussion......
TOV Asia --> Re: Honda JP Sales 2018: Hybrids make up 55% of reg. cars
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Honda's new sub-brand Honda e
Join Discussion......
Amateur Racing & Driving --> Re: My first helmet !
Join Discussion......
2019 Honda Passport PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
2019 Acura NSX PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Acura ILX
Read Article....................
2019 Acura ILX PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Honda Pilot
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Pilot PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss

Go to:

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - [1] 2
Author
  Post New Thread
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 13:10
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 13:26
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 14:16
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Sort of makes sense.

On the request from AHM, our Clarity FCEV is insured for a value of about $50K. That also means that our registration is about $500 bucks a year.

Given a somewhat cheaper fuel cell and an upgraded interior, you can see how a Legend FCEV would come out.

But, will they still lease them for $399 a month? With the $15K free H2, rental car days and the $5K cash from the State?


RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 14:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyEX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Sort of makes sense.

On the request from AHM, our Clarity FCEV is insured for a value of about $50K. That also means that our registration is about $500 bucks a year.

Given a somewhat cheaper fuel cell and an upgraded interior, you can see how a Legend FCEV would come out.

But, will they still lease them for $399 a month? With the $15K free H2, rental car days and the $5K cash from the State?




I think they want to be like the Germans($80-100K car leased for $500 a month). I think no more free H2 with new FC.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 17:46
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



When you stated FCEV RLX, do mean a trim that will be fuel celll, and the rest of the line ICE motors/Hybrids? Or is the next RLX will be a fuel cell car period.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 17:55
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 01:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I don't care what the Chinas want. Neither should Honda. Relations between the 2 countries suck. Their bitterness towards each other go way back to 1931 and the Chinese still hate the Japanese whereas the Japanese tend to look down at them. Not all behave like this of course. Just generalizing. Their displeasure with each other passes down from generation to generation. We still see it today - 2012, Chinese conducted a bunch of anti-Japanese demonstrations. Japanese car factory in China and their sales suffered.

Clearly, automakers chase China market because it is big $$. That is capitalism at work. The Chinese are different. Its in their culture and not unlike factories in say Mexico. They will learn all your trade and manufacturing secrets, and reverse engineer everything and try to out do you. They start new companies based on all the shit they learn. In 15 years times, they are competing with you. Boeing is making a huge mistake by manufacturing in China. The dollars you earn today by building a factory in China will come back and bury you if you don't innovate.

Its a business, I get it. They report to shareholders. Profit and the hunger for money and power drives capitalism. The Chinas want EVs so Honda forgets FR sports car for the whole world. After 10 years of indecision, they slapped the NSX together at the very end, it was mission accomplished. Never mind that nobody buys it now. Write off the investments. Soichiro's soul is dead in the organization.

Back in Fukui and Ito's days, the FR platform was largely developed not only for the HSV but it also would be used for a FR sedan carrying an engine that Mr. LexusGS would approve. I no longer remember which CEO killed the program, either Ito or his successor. After that, it was the beginning of Honda putting their tail between their legs and it showed in their product line. The NSX is a good come back but poor execution and not understanding their market hurt the program hence Honda is gun shy about any more investment on new sports cars.

So where does it leave us now. They still have a developed FR platform. Perhaps it wasn't a cheap platform so they didn't want to move forward with it today. Greatness doesn't happen if one is obsessed with not failing. If so, they should just stick with 4 banger front wheel drive vehicles.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 06:11
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.



I follow most of that.

What I struggle with is how they can justify an S660 on an almost-unique plank and not a more middle-ground type of car that might have more global appeal.

For example, the Alpine A110 seems to be sold out for months ahead. I don't know its projected volume or how profitable it ought to be, but a mid-engined CTR ought to be more do-able.

After all, many people mock the MX-5, which seems to have been an object lesson in how to do things.

It could be that the S1000 was too expensive to adapt form the S660 and had to wait for an FMC. But unless it's incredibly cute and fun-to-drive, I'm sure it will be mocked by a lot of the world.

Any insight into Honda's rationale would be appreciated.

I mean, the Wa(ta)nabe-Tesla RLX I get*; there a rumours that Jaguar in thinking likewise about the next XJ.


*Get in the way I got Diseasel cars; I detest them personally, but millions of buyers disagreed with me as they usually do...

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 08:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:


Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.



Maybe Honda USA could cut their ad budget in the US (currently $1.33 billion) by a 1/4 for the next 3 years and fund it.

I say that in jest, but only slightly. If you're afraid to take a risk, or you just don't want to offer a particular product, you can always make a case against it, find a reason not to do it.

Honda now seems content to never be anything more than what they are. That's fine, but the number of people who've graduated from their fine entry level vehicles with nothing to move on to is massive. Hell, I remember all the non-Honda people they brought into the fold with the S2000, attracting Porsche and BMW intenders who fell in love with the car. But they never had anything else to spend their money on once they sampled Honda goodness in a $35k (now about $50k with inflation) package.

Which makes me wonder, could the same people making the case against a sports car today have made the same case in 2000 with our beloved AP1? I suspect they would have, and we, along with Honda, would all be the worse off for it.

SC

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 09:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.

I see what you are saying regarding to brand and offerings but then I cant quite see the generalization of “brand associated with sports cars” (Porsche excepted). For instance the F-150 brand that just jettisoned all its sedans and family cars does have a strong sports car offering or two. In fact I think it’s the current performance levels of the mustang, camaro, and corvette that puts a squeeze on any incoming new comer to justify their price tags. I mean these machines used to be mocked but now are considered venerable performance bargains.

I can see the perspective that CUVs are king now so why risk spending a boatload on a low volume offering. But then again they did that with the NSX as an attempt for image booster for Acura. On the flip side when you focus too much on what the market feeds in sales number a la GM-style, I’m not sure in the end what makes your brand more special than any other volume builder. It might just hasten the anti-car, anti-driving sentiment. So IMHO while the initial investment might not look pretty, it seems necessary for the enthusiast, brand image and to ensure you aren’t driven to irrelevance in the long run.

Besides, given the CTR, there seems to be a glimmer of hope that there’s still some engineering magic at Honda to make a genuine sport offering truly special to be worthwhile, but they still seem too shell shocked. I think Honda might see more success if they are disciplined and cultivate a model almost like its own brand, not unlike the sports cars listed above which have had good staying power. Bring back the S2000, Prelude, or Integra?

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 09:15
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notyper wrote:
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:


Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.



Maybe Honda USA could cut their ad budget in the US (currently $1.33 billion) by a 1/4 for the next 3 years and fund it.

I say that in jest, but only slightly. If you're afraid to take a risk, or you just don't want to offer a particular product, you can always make a case against it, find a reason not to do it.

Honda now seems content to never be anything more than what they are. That's fine, but the number of people who've graduated from their fine entry level vehicles with nothing to move on to is massive. Hell, I remember all the non-Honda people they brought into the fold with the S2000, attracting Porsche and BMW intenders who fell in love with the car. But they never had anything else to spend their money on once they sampled Honda goodness in a $35k (now about $50k with inflation) package.

Which makes me wonder, could the same people making the case against a sports car today have made the same case in 2000 with our beloved AP1? I suspect they would have, and we, along with Honda, would all be the worse off for it.

SC



Good point about there NOT being a business case for the S2000 but it was created anyway and had a good sales run (does anyone know the R&D budget?). A different "Honda Team" for sure.

In the Ocean 11 and 12 movies there was a phrase, " You shook Frank Sinatra"s hand", referring to the old guys (Old Gangstas) in Vegas. One could ask who in Japan on the board or management team shook Mr. Honda's hand. Is there anyone left who has?


longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 09:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick GravesX wrote:
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.



I follow most of that.

What I struggle with is how they can justify an S660 on an almost-unique plank and not a more middle-ground type of car that might have more global appeal.

For example, the Alpine A110 seems to be sold out for months ahead. I don't know its projected volume or how profitable it ought to be, but a mid-engined CTR ought to be more do-able.

After all, many people mock the MX-5, which seems to have been an object lesson in how to do things.

It could be that the S1000 was too expensive to adapt form the S660 and had to wait for an FMC. But unless it's incredibly cute and fun-to-drive, I'm sure it will be mocked by a lot of the world.

Any insight into Honda's rationale would be appreciated.

I mean, the Wa(ta)nabe-Tesla RLX I get*; there a rumours that Jaguar in thinking likewise about the next XJ.


*Get in the way I got Diseasel cars; I detest them personally, but millions of buyers disagreed with me as they usually do...



The S660 shares its expensive parts (platform) with the N-One, which I guess Honda literally took a FWD platform and turned it around, ala the rumors were getting years ago about the present NSX.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S660

Positives from the S660-
1. Its project leader was young (22) which speaks to a new generation of Honda engineers that still have "it".

2. If Honda found a business case to flip a FWD chassis around for a sports car, what would the budget be to flip the CTR (Accord/Civic chassis) around and drop a sexy body on it? That's the only one is going to get another sports car out of Honda.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 13:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?


#2 is exciting
#3 is interesting
The others are kind of depressing for those of us hoping for a different direction.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 06:20
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
longhorn wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Also talking to others, there is no reason to spend 1 billion on a $50K FR Sports Car. Just look at the sales in that market space. Toyota was smart to use BMW to do so(a very cheap way to get into the market)



Take the emotion out of it (that's what accountants do), and I have to agree with you. In the market as it stands today, unless one's brand is associated with sports cars, its hard to find a business case to do a $50K Sports Car.

And before someone states "Mr. Honda would have....". Considering his views on CUVs/SUVs , one has to wander would Honda be as strong today if he was still running it.



I follow most of that.

What I struggle with is how they can justify an S660 on an almost-unique plank and not a more middle-ground type of car that might have more global appeal.

For example, the Alpine A110 seems to be sold out for months ahead. I don't know its projected volume or how profitable it ought to be, but a mid-engined CTR ought to be more do-able.

After all, many people mock the MX-5, which seems to have been an object lesson in how to do things.

It could be that the S1000 was too expensive to adapt form the S660 and had to wait for an FMC. But unless it's incredibly cute and fun-to-drive, I'm sure it will be mocked by a lot of the world.

Any insight into Honda's rationale would be appreciated.

I mean, the Wa(ta)nabe-Tesla RLX I get*; there a rumours that Jaguar in thinking likewise about the next XJ.


*Get in the way I got Diseasel cars; I detest them personally, but millions of buyers disagreed with me as they usually do...



The S660 shares its expensive parts (platform) with the N-One, which I guess Honda literally took a FWD platform and turned it around, ala the rumors were getting years ago about the present NSX.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S660

Positives from the S660-
1. Its project leader was young (22) which speaks to a new generation of Honda engineers that still have "it".

2. If Honda found a business case to flip a FWD chassis around for a sports car, what would the budget be to flip the CTR (Accord/Civic chassis) around and drop a sexy body on it? That's the only one is going to get another sports car out of Honda.



This 'turning round a fwd plank' is a total canard.

It requires almost a complete re-design, barring the powertrain.

Even repeating the rear suspension with a second front set requires an extensive re-design and the bodyshell is entirely unique.

The X-1/9 and MGF would be good examples to study. And the S660.

Restless
Profile for Restless
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 07:32
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.


They sell BEVs in EU?!
:O

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 09:56
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
It seems easier to shrink the NSX platform, remove the hybrid bits, stick in the CTR engine and have a Cayman/Boxster fighter.

Alternatively, use the transverse platform that was ditched mid-development of the NSX MKII and stick in the CTR engine.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 10:41
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
honduh wrote:
It seems easier to shrink the NSX platform, remove the hybrid bits, stick in the CTR engine and have a Cayman/Boxster fighter.

Alternatively, use the transverse platform that was ditched mid-development of the NSX MKII and stick in the CTR engine.




Hideously expensive, gluing all those different materials together.

The S660 is good ol'fashioned steel. It's cheap & familiar.

If the next-gen Kei cars are allowed to be bigger/more powerful, I can see how the Kei-based S1000 makes sense for Japan, but it's probably still too small for global markets. Except that the JDM is so small, it still doesn't make sense as doesn't the S660.

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 11:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
My hope is that they have considered the CTR bits while engineering the EU BEV.

That the new body and suspension can add a hybrid system would be just expected to gain scale advantages. So why not add the sports option to the platform for additional sales?

Assembly should have the Swindon factory considered. The line next to the CTR assembly.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 11:45
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick GravesX wrote:
honduh wrote:
It seems easier to shrink the NSX platform, remove the hybrid bits, stick in the CTR engine and have a Cayman/Boxster fighter.

Alternatively, use the transverse platform that was ditched mid-development of the NSX MKII and stick in the CTR engine.




Hideously expensive, gluing all those different materials together.

The S660 is good ol'fashioned steel. It's cheap & familiar.

If the next-gen Kei cars are allowed to be bigger/more powerful, I can see how the Kei-based S1000 makes sense for Japan, but it's probably still too small for global markets. Except that the JDM is so small, it still doesn't make sense as doesn't the S660.

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.



Some key points

1 There was about 10 years between the first NSX and the S2000 debut, Honda moved slow
2 ACO/FIA planning to allow hydrogen at Le Man's in 2024
3. Urban EV plank(can a ICE or FC be put into it)
4 Tokyo Olympics

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 11:47
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Fan Koni wrote:
My hope is that they have considered the CTR bits while engineering the EU BEV.

That the new body and suspension can add a hybrid system would be just expected to gain scale advantages. So why not add the sports option to the platform for additional sales?

Assembly should have the Swindon factory considered. The line next to the CTR assembly.



BRIXIT kills that idea

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 14:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
honduh wrote:
It seems easier to shrink the NSX platform, remove the hybrid bits, stick in the CTR engine and have a Cayman/Boxster fighter.

Alternatively, use the transverse platform that was ditched mid-development of the NSX MKII and stick in the CTR engine.



Hideously expensive, gluing all those different materials together.

The S660 is good ol'fashioned steel. It's cheap & familiar.

If the next-gen Kei cars are allowed to be bigger/more powerful, I can see how the Kei-based S1000 makes sense for Japan, but it's probably still too small for global markets. Except that the JDM is so small, it still doesn't make sense as doesn't the S660.

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.



Some key points

1 There was about 10 years between the first NSX and the S2000 debut, Honda moved slow
2 ACO/FIA planning to allow hydrogen at Le Man's in 2024
3. Urban EV plank(can a ICE or FC be put into it)
4 Tokyo Olympics


#1 why the slow gestation?
#2 Honda FC is a cool rolling science experiment but awaiting for mainstream application and I cannot experience because it’s only available in CA.
#3 concerned about a jack of all trades platform. It seems logical for efficiencies but from what I can tell being optimized in performance for each powertrain type is mutually exclusive. I see Clarity as an example.

I don’t know either how they might justify a larger global sports car except for image. I hope though if they do commit to it that it will not be a one off version but sort of like a cultivated sub brand in and of itself. That seems to be what has worked for a cult following of other sports cars with the most staying power.

Regarding to the NSX Al intensive space frame, maybe I was channeling selfishness in wanting to sample all the impressive material and manufacturing accomplishments at a more attainable price. I had not seen this before but curious about the claimed benefits of the chassis rigidity from the mixed materials especially the ablation castings. Too bad it seems it is burdened by a lot of weight for a supercar.

https://hondanews.com/releases/2017-acura-nsx-press-kit-space-frame-and-body-panels?page=51

Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 00:09
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
My hope is that they have considered the CTR bits while engineering the EU BEV.

That the new body and suspension can add a hybrid system would be just expected to gain scale advantages. So why not add the sports option to the platform for additional sales?

Assembly should have the Swindon factory considered. The line next to the CTR assembly.



BRIXIT kills that idea



That's scary.
I suppose the CTR could be made elsewhere, so the BEV could be too.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 07:28
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
My hope is that they have considered the CTR bits while engineering the EU BEV.

That the new body and suspension can add a hybrid system would be just expected to gain scale advantages. So why not add the sports option to the platform for additional sales?

Assembly should have the Swindon factory considered. The line next to the CTR assembly.



BRIXIT kills that idea



That's scary.
I suppose the CTR could be made elsewhere, so the BEV could be too.



Not so much another line, but there is a mothballed 2nd plant at Swindon.

But as a result of the ineptitude of politicians, it is quite probable that in the long-run the 1st factory will be mothballed too.

Either way, the confusion delays planning and so Swindon will perhaps miss an opportunity.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 08:49
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick GravesX wrote:

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.


Any thoughts on how Porsche justifies the boxster/cayman. They’re mere blips in sales compared to 911. Unique engine and platform. Even the Macan and Cayenne share bones with other VAG stuff. They seem to set a low base price but force pricey options to give the illusion of a lower priced car.

s2ktaxi
Profile for s2ktaxi
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 16:49
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
honduh wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.


Any thoughts on how Porsche justifies the boxster/cayman. They’re mere blips in sales compared to 911. Unique engine and platform. Even the Macan and Cayenne share bones with other VAG stuff. They seem to set a low base price but force pricey options to give the illusion of a lower priced car.


Porsche targets profit per car - if they get the numbers to work with the lower volume, that's all that matters. The Boxster/Cayman platform has been massaged for years (decades?) without requiring much redesign - just tweaks. their profit is in the options and their base price is not that low.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 17:33
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
RolledaNsx wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
The clues I got from the talk.

1. China and EU city BEV rules(must sell BEV) took the FR Sports Car budget and plant space.
2. They are not giving up on the NSX. Expect more upgrades and versions (Red Bull help?)
3 New FCEV the FMC RLX(Legend)?
4 FMC S660 moving up one class size (bigger and 1L)?
S1000? Global model?



Sort of makes sense.

On the request from AHM, our Clarity FCEV is insured for a value of about $50K. That also means that our registration is about $500 bucks a year.

Given a somewhat cheaper fuel cell and an upgraded interior, you can see how a Legend FCEV would come out.

But, will they still lease them for $399 a month? With the $15K free H2, rental car days and the $5K cash from the State?




I think they want to be like the Germans($80-100K car leased for $500 a month). I think no more free H2 with new FC.



IMHO they are going to need at least TWO FCEVs, specially if the cost of the FC drops as they are targeting the new AHM/GM partnership (cost of labor for the FC is one of their targets).

Perhaps a mid/upper 30K Accord FCEV (Touring level) and then a Legend with eSH-AWD FCEV in the $60K range.

The current cars (Clarity FCEV and Mirai) run about $60K. The Clarity is downright luxurious compared to the Mirai.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 17:53
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
s2ktaxi wrote:
honduh wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.


Any thoughts on how Porsche justifies the boxster/cayman. They’re mere blips in sales compared to 911. Unique engine and platform. Even the Macan and Cayenne share bones with other VAG stuff. They seem to set a low base price but force pricey options to give the illusion of a lower priced car.


Porsche targets profit per car - if they get the numbers to work with the lower volume, that's all that matters. The Boxster/Cayman platform has been massaged for years (decades?) without requiring much redesign - just tweaks. their profit is in the options and their base price is not that low.



That “mere blip” is 25,000 global sales with an average transaction price that’s probably around $70,000.

So...$2 billion in top line sales a year...? I’ve read Porsche overall has operating margin somewhere around 15%.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 19:29
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
honduh wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.


Any thoughts on how Porsche justifies the boxster/cayman. They’re mere blips in sales compared to 911. Unique engine and platform. Even the Macan and Cayenne share bones with other VAG stuff. They seem to set a low base price but force pricey options to give the illusion of a lower priced car.



That's not quite how it works - the 98x s are basically a way on increasing parts volume (and thus price discounts) of the 99x variant and if you want a better-handling 99x at a bargain price, are definitely the way to go.

It's a very unique proposition, in that it's a low-volume specialist sports car at an almost production-car volume. No other sports car mfr. can get anywhere close. And as you say, optioned-up it has a pretty decent margin. Though it probably cannot sustain Porsche in the long-run, given the push into electrickery and other pointless gewgaws.

Their super-normal profits are derived from persuading mugs to option-up a glorified Audi SUV. Not that's REAL volume, across all the VAG variants...

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 20:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick GravesX wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
My hope is that they have considered the CTR bits while engineering the EU BEV.

That the new body and suspension can add a hybrid system would be just expected to gain scale advantages. So why not add the sports option to the platform for additional sales?

Assembly should have the Swindon factory considered. The line next to the CTR assembly.



BRIXIT kills that idea



That's scary.
I suppose the CTR could be made elsewhere, so the BEV could be too.



Not so much another line, but there is a mothballed 2nd plant at Swindon.

But as a result of the ineptitude of politicians, it is quite probable that in the long-run the 1st factory will be mothballed too.

Either way, the confusion delays planning and so Swindon will perhaps miss an opportunity.



Perhaps HMC should move the HoE Swindon plant to the Ulster.

Nothing like a bunch of chain smoking Japanese yelling at a bunch of drunk Irishmen. Make sure the cars are built by robots and only non drinking Pakis (the only ones in the Ulster) ever touch the cars.

Keep the Irish around because... see below...

Just for kicks, and to make it the most inconvenient they should open the plants the County Donegal, close to a brewery and whiskey pubs.

Bring in the IRA as the union enforcers.

I can imagine that NO UK PM or minister or even the Monarch will DARE speak against the wishes of those people up there. Blue painted faces? Heck, imagine blue painted faces with a Red Rising Sun on their foreheads.... a whiskey on one hand, a Japanese sourced American M16 on the other and a katana on the other... hmm... well, you get the meaning. Those workers should be as far away from Christianity and Good Manners as far as possible.. and Iceland is simply too far away anyhow.

At the very least, if HoE doesn't make money on the cars, it can surely make a lot of money off a couple of reality shows for global TV consumption.

Imagine... in a pub.. at the lunch hour, on one side are 100 drunk Irishmen having a liquid lunch of ale, on the other 100 drunk japanese drinking Sochu and smoking non stop, in the middle the IRA trying to keep the peace by carrying grenades and telling both side to cool it... when suddenly, two very hungry, very big sumo wrestlers from Toyota Ireland step through the front door.

Whamo! Chop! Chop!







honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: My talk with Honda's Motorsports Boss    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 08:26
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nick GravesX wrote:
honduh wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

So...if the S660 makes no financial sense, it must be there for image purposes alone. Would you lose less money making a larger global sports car for image purposes alone. By chopping up a CTR, for example? That's where Honda has me baffled.


Any thoughts on how Porsche justifies the boxster/cayman. They’re mere blips in sales compared to 911. Unique engine and platform. Even the Macan and Cayenne share bones with other VAG stuff. They seem to set a low base price but force pricey options to give the illusion of a lower priced car.



That's not quite how it works - the 98x s are basically a way on increasing parts volume (and thus price discounts) of the 99x variant and if you want a better-handling 99x at a bargain price, are definitely the way to go.

It's a very unique proposition, in that it's a low-volume specialist sports car at an almost production-car volume. No other sports car mfr. can get anywhere close. And as you say, optioned-up it has a pretty decent margin. Though it probably cannot sustain Porsche in the long-run, given the push into electrickery and other pointless gewgaws.

Their super-normal profits are derived from persuading mugs to option-up a glorified Audi SUV. Not that's REAL volume, across all the VAG variants...


Good point about the “two-fer” parts sharing. I dug around to see this and totally missed that. It also helped they got lessons on being Toyota “lean”.

Well hey, so many VAG suv models off the same platform with skies-the-limit price tags. Plus VAG is having quite the fun playing off of family rivalry with Audi having an answer to that “glorified Audi” with a more expensive, less seating Audi and a coupe rear end. Volume indeed or VAG is the mad hatter of suv-dom.


 
Thread Page - [1] 2
Go to:
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2018 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
30 mobile: 0