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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars

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JeffX
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Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 15:29
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http://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydrogen-boss-explains-how-fuel-cells-can-achieve-corolla-costs

If you want to bring the wrath of Twitter upon you, suggest that electric vehicles could be powered by something other than batteries. Only the utterly naïve seem to think that any technology bringing zero emission transportation should be worth the consideration. Mention fuel cells, and you will swiftly be denounced as an idiot, an agent of Big Oil, or worse. Tesla’s Elon Musk routinely piles invective on fuel cells, calling them "mind-bogglingly stupid," "incredibly dumb" and "fool cells”—schoolyard taunts that resonate especially well with battery-bullies.

The other side of the holy war for the most part quietly turns the other cheek. Well, until this morning, as I sit down in a coffee shop in Tokyo’s Shinagawa Station for an exclusive interview with one of the central figures of Toyota’s fuel cell project. Professor Katsuhiko Hirose has been in charge of Toyota’s Fuel Cell system development, and he tells me why Musk is rightfully afraid of the fuel cell: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars, opening the door to zero-emission transportation around the world, and not just in rich pockets that can afford battery-electric vehicles that are dependent on scarce natural resources and government support.

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 20:13
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Where is Honda in all this? How come all this article are about Toyota now, like they are the leader in all this.

Why does is seem like Honda is just quiet on everything now...

Ok, if they keep quiet, then their next FCEV should be affordable and very very good and blow everyone's mind.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-19-2019 23:45
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fishchan wrote:
Where is Honda in all this? How come all this article are about Toyota now, like they are the leader in all this.

Why does is seem like Honda is just quiet on everything now...

Ok, if they keep quiet, then their next FCEV should be affordable and very very good and blow everyone's mind.



Honda is definitely in it. I expect we'll be hearing a lot more from them on this front in the coming year.

But there are other things in this article that are pretty interesting as well.


fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 00:10
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JeffX wrote:
Honda is definitely in it. I expect we'll be hearing a lot more from them on this front in the coming year.


I mean in the news. They are the first into hydrogen and now they seem like just keeping quiet and Toyota just stealing all the credit.

I read the full article, very interesting. But the way the BEV are, it is the "easier" solution and people easily understand it, don't want to worry where all the pollution go to as long as it is not directly from them (and what happens if everyone switch to BEV - cheaper electric bills, or more expensive?). And the advantage BEV give - lower CG, more torque, more space, nicer design etc. is instantly seen/ felt.

If they want to really go into hydrogen the next car from Honda better be realy really good and not compromise with ugly propotion, range, price etc.



RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 00:19
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Honda and Toyota just started the first hydrogen interstructer in Canada(Montreal). Expect more of this in the coming years (Honda and Toyota leading the way). They both agree hydrogen is the future not BEV.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 07:49
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Thank you for posting that, Jeff.

Isn't it pleasant to read the views of someone who clearly knows WTF he is talking about.

I've certainly been concerned about the concept of battery giga-factories that are redundant almost as soon as they're productive.

And the idea of a 40-tonne tractor (prime mover) which typically weighs around 8 tonnes (about a tonne of which is the diesel engine) requiring 8 tonnes of battery for only 500 Km puts things into sharp relief.

Perhaps the most significant point which justifies the view of Toyota, GM & Honda, is that you base the energy conversion factor from the raw fuel, not from electricity. An easy error of principle to make, but probably the greatest change of thinking since er, the Reformation...

notyper
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Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 08:24
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Thank you for posting that, Jeff.

Isn't it pleasant to read the views of someone who clearly knows WTF he is talking about.

I've certainly been concerned about the concept of battery giga-factories that are redundant almost as soon as they're productive.

And the idea of a 40-tonne tractor (prime mover) which typically weighs around 8 tonnes (about a tonne of which is the diesel engine) requiring 8 tonnes of battery for only 500 Km puts things into sharp relief.

Perhaps the most significant point which justifies the view of Toyota, GM & Honda, is that you base the energy conversion factor from the raw fuel, not from electricity. An easy error of principle to make, but probably the greatest change of thinking since er, the Reformation...




I think his optimism is a little on the sunny side, but that's no different than what we hear from the opposite camp about their tech so its to be expected.

The primary issue that will always dog FCEV vehicles in the PR battle for dominance (because, let's remember, Betamax didn't win even if it should have) is that it can't pass the ecological "purity test" that BEVs can. Whether you use hydrolisis (conversion losses on the electrical side) or reformation (start with NG and convert directly), you have dirt on your hands.

The BEV folks, OTOH, will always point to solar/wind based charging sources as the standard by which BEVs should be judged, while writing off the materials side as recyclable.

Of course, I'm not saying they're right to do this. As the Toyota maven said at the end of the article, you need a portfolio of solutions to hedge your bets and I feel like there is a place for BEV, FCEV and IC for a long time to come. But BEV is winning hearts and minds, in no small part due to Tesla's visibility, Musk's self promotion, and the aspirational nature of their cars (despite all the quality issues, Musk's regulatory troubles, etc.).

IMO, the only way for FCEV to gain prominence and win those hearts and minds is to focus on what BEVs will never be - namely, fast refuelers/rechargers. We've been hearing that charging times will come down for decades now, but really they still suck, especially if you have to do it someplace besides a "fast" charger. OTOH, FCEVs should fuel like a petrol vehicle (frozen couplers notwithstanding). Start with that wedge and then keep pointing out that places like California have no ability to charge a large electric fleet and have no plans to add grid capacity to accomodate the needs they have now.

Sure, you can still point out that the percentage of solar/wind available to charge cars (especially at night when most are on the plug) is small and will continue to be so, but focus on the fueling issue and maybe people start to like the idea of FCEVs more. That and actually style them attractively rather than the monstrosity from Toyota (and let's be honest, the new Clarity is two steps back from the last generation style wise).

SC

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 15:50
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notyper wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Thank you for posting that, Jeff.

Isn't it pleasant to read the views of someone who clearly knows WTF he is talking about.

I've certainly been concerned about the concept of battery giga-factories that are redundant almost as soon as they're productive.

And the idea of a 40-tonne tractor (prime mover) which typically weighs around 8 tonnes (about a tonne of which is the diesel engine) requiring 8 tonnes of battery for only 500 Km puts things into sharp relief.

Perhaps the most significant point which justifies the view of Toyota, GM & Honda, is that you base the energy conversion factor from the raw fuel, not from electricity. An easy error of principle to make, but probably the greatest change of thinking since er, the Reformation...




I think his optimism is a little on the sunny side, but that's no different than what we hear from the opposite camp about their tech so its to be expected.

The primary issue that will always dog FCEV vehicles in the PR battle for dominance (because, let's remember, Betamax didn't win even if it should have) is that it can't pass the ecological "purity test" that BEVs can. Whether you use hydrolisis (conversion losses on the electrical side) or reformation (start with NG and convert directly), you have dirt on your hands.

The BEV folks, OTOH, will always point to solar/wind based charging sources as the standard by which BEVs should be judged, while writing off the materials side as recyclable.

Of course, I'm not saying they're right to do this. As the Toyota maven said at the end of the article, you need a portfolio of solutions to hedge your bets and I feel like there is a place for BEV, FCEV and IC for a long time to come. But BEV is winning hearts and minds, in no small part due to Tesla's visibility, Musk's self promotion, and the aspirational nature of their cars (despite all the quality issues, Musk's regulatory troubles, etc.).

IMO, the only way for FCEV to gain prominence and win those hearts and minds is to focus on what BEVs will never be - namely, fast refuelers/rechargers. We've been hearing that charging times will come down for decades now, but really they still suck, especially if you have to do it someplace besides a "fast" charger. OTOH, FCEVs should fuel like a petrol vehicle (frozen couplers notwithstanding). Start with that wedge and then keep pointing out that places like California have no ability to charge a large electric fleet and have no plans to add grid capacity to accomodate the needs they have now.

Sure, you can still point out that the percentage of solar/wind available to charge cars (especially at night when most are on the plug) is small and will continue to be so, but focus on the fueling issue and maybe people start to like the idea of FCEVs more. That and actually style them attractively rather than the monstrosity from Toyota (and let's be honest, the new Clarity is two steps back from the last generation style wise).

SC




(1) I still have a Sony SL-HF1000 Super Betamax on my "audio-video museum closet". Only bested by two machines, both ED-Betas and only available in Japan (I almost bought one at Akihabara while on a trip).

(2) Many people buying EVs are Greenies. You can imagine their reaction at the unveiling of the current Clarity FCEV when I mentioned the fuel efficiency has never been much of a concern of mine, nor "Saving the Earth" -which I feel is doing just fine. I just wanted the EV torque characteristics (Master of the 405 during rush hour), free fuel and access to the car pool lanes. I then became a pariah ( for the putative customers, not the rather amused AHM employees present ) when I told them I am a scientist and the Climate Change is a political hoax. I just love putting these people where they belong, down from their virtue signaling lofty perches.

So, until FCEVs come down in price, say 35K for a sedan/CUV with a range of 340 miles, then we still have to deal with these BEV (mostly Tesla) owners who, let's face it, are on the rich side of things.

Once the great masses get their hands on a FCEV commuters, with their transparency of fuel ( quick fill ups ) and as the availability expands, you will see that BEVs will be pushed permanently into a niche product for the PC correct.

(3) What I find most funny is how these Greenies claim their Teslas -which they charge at night- can be charged by wind and solar generated power. Since we both are in Calimexistan, WE KNOW what a lie that is. Whenever I meet such a Greenie, I make that point, but they pull a bugeyed Adam Shifty on me and cover their ears lest reality hit them in the ass.

I have posted such heretic notions in several places, including the Facebook Clarity FCEV group. Most of them are nut jobs with a Miss Manners attitude. So, I left it. Oddly, places like Green Car Reports (and the like) have much thicker skin even as some of those posters are poster boys (*) for the Powerpoint "educated" squad.

(4) Yeah, they have to expand the infrastructure.

(5) You know what though, iMMD like powertrains are likely the best for the foreseeable future. More torque deep down than a 1.5T I4 and yet great mileage. For a sport car combination, you could combine a 2.0T with larger electric/generator motors... you'd still have much more torque off the line, but you'd still have the top end power of the ICE.

(6) I am convinced that EV powertrains are better than direct ICE control, except -for the time being- very high speed cars. How the electricity is produced, I think serial hybrids are the most efficient, but Hydrogen Fuel Cells are extremely smooth.

(7) A Tesla is just not a very good compromise... Only non technical dogmatic greenies whose only education is a Power Point presentation would believe so. The engineers I know that own Teslas do so because they own homes with large solar panel grids and they find them convenient... But, Jesus Christ, they spent well into the six figure to get that!

In any event, those big batteries for BEVs are going to be a horrific issue at their end of life. Right now they are not cost effective to recycle. Of course, in Calimexistan, the Greenies Plan will be to tax everyone to make THEIR preferred cars going. Yeah, imagine that, "Save Gaia" but bury those LiOn cells deep there. "Hey! let's bury them in Nevada!".

(8) The current Clarity exterior is a big Citroenesque and distinctive. Perhaps that's why AHM did it that way. Just take a look at the Mirai and you will think the Clarity is beautiful. IMHO, I think the direction of the current Insight is where the Clarity should go.

(9) If we could get a PHEV Insight, with red HOV stickers... Mind you, we'd NEVER charge it, but it would be a great commuter and much easier to refuel than the Clarity. I would like to have a PHEV Insight AND a Clarity FCEV ( plus either a Ridgeline or RDX).

(*) Did I just insult someone on that forum by using the word "boy".. If so, fuck them. Deal with it. That's the idiom.



TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 16:33
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Thanks for the post.

(1) Yes, batteries are costly to make and the materials are very expensive. In the US, the plants that make the materials that go into the catalytic converters are tightly controlled because the metals are extremely pricey and there's no way the BOM (*) for that is going go go down. Batteries are in a common path.

(2) Honda's latest iMMD used far less (none) of those expensive rare earth metals. Seems like very few people noticed but that is a BIG movement forward in terms of cost and pollution.

(3) The next FC from AHM and GM is said to drastically drop the price (or so AHM has written publicly ). I recall an engineer saying that their main push was to drop the cost of labor to put it together by automating the process. Currently the big cost of a FC is the labor to put it together. You can lower the cost while maintaining, or bettering, the performance.

Combine a lower cost FC with lower cost electric motors, installed in an non bespoke car platform (Accord instead of Clarity) and you might for real have a true FCEV at the cost of an ICE car.

(4) One thing he didn't say in the article, is the size of the fuel tank. Currently we're at H70, which works out to 10K PSI, This takes a sizeable fuel station compressor, which is on the loud side. But, for efficiency, the size of the tank should be made smaller, and in order to keep the range at a reasonable 340 miles per tank, you'd need to pump the pressure. I wonder how expensive that tank is. What would it take to make a 6Kg tank at H105? 7Kg at H140?

(5) I frequent many of those "Green Car" sites. The Greenies are brainwashed. One of their main complains about hydrogen is that the "Oil Companies" are behind it. (**) You can't argue with the BEV people because most of them are dogmatic and religious about BEVs.

(*) Bill of materials
(**) Because everybody know that the "Oil Companies" are bad people.

Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 06:35
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. . . Because everybody know that the "Oil Companies" are bad . . . .


You betcha! But, man, do they pay a great dividend!




rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 07:35
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That was a very informative read. Interesting stuff.
I do agree it is good to keep an open mind when it comes to the whole BEV vs FCEV thing.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 08:14
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Well, that's what many of us try to do. But it's difficult to get past the fake news.

London taxis are now serial hybrids, Zenith seem to do some potentially cost-effective EV conversions of RAM vans for parcel work, there are niches where different solutions might make sense.

What I am particularly fascinated to see is IF FCEVs take off (oh, the humanity...) how quickly costs will fall. I just like technical shit...

I tend to look at the commercial sector, because profit is the ultimate decider and is how Diesel engines got big.

The private sector is more easily swayed by daydream-believers and virtue-signallers, so is a less reliable indicator.


CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 08:34
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As is noted in the article, it’s not really battery tech vs fuel cell. We are likely to see both technologies improved and each being used, presumably, where it makes sense. I see a future in which both have a place and even ICEs taking decades to be phased out. We’re not going to collectively choose a winner and cast off everything else mainly because each technology has strengths and weaknesses. It depends on how you intend to use the end product.
Dren
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Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 08:36
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Thanks for the article Jeff, it was a good, refreshing read.

We decommissioned our H2 production unit at one of our plants a few years ago because it has the older stacks in it which are quite expensive to replace. I'm thinking in the $25k-$50k range IIR. When it was in operation, it was able to keep up with the H2 losses we'd have over 12 generators. We use H2 to cool them. It enables higher generation than cooling with air or nitrogen.

I still like the idea of having the Honda power unit at home that runs on NG and outputs heat, electricity and H2.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 10:56
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notyper wrote:


Sure, you can still point out that the percentage of solar/wind available to charge cars (especially at night when most are on the plug) is small and will continue to be so, but focus on the fueling issue and maybe people start to like the idea of FCEVs more. That and actually style them attractively rather than the monstrosity from Toyota (and let's be honest, the new Clarity is two steps back from the last generation style wise).

SC



You remember back in the day when Honda retrofitted CVCC into an Impala to school GM. Maybe they need to do a modern version of that demo by retrofitting the FCEV gear into a Model S to keep Musk in check and show you can have your cake and eat it too.


GoFaster
Profile for GoFaster
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 11:05
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I am surprised Japanese companies are pursuing hydrogen fuel cells over BEV, because Japan has no natural gas or coal of their own to support the extraction of hydrogen, as far as I know. Japan has always been a miracle to do what they have done with such a lack of natural resources. They love nuclear power, which would seem to support BEV. I must be missing information.

Why would we want to convert natural gas to hydrogen instead of skipping the conversion and having a natural gas car? There must be a belief H can be extracted from water economically? With that I understand, but hasn’t that been the hurdle yet to be overcome? I have been reading about hydrogen cars since the 1970s in Popular Science, so I am a bit skeptical about claims of sudden progress in creating H. However, in California we are capturing methane from garbage dumps and sewage treatment to be converted into hydrogen, so there are definitely some interesting stories.

Air pollution is a big turnoff to city life, and either FCEV or BEV fixes that issue, so I am happy with either. Perhaps it just has to be BEV for the next 20 years followed by hydrogen. It’s not one or the other, but rather first and second, because I am skeptical about the supply of H at this point.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 11:34
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Gofaster,

Probably because of the CO^2 religion: NG IC engines still 'pollute' near the exhaust.

Plus, Toyota thinks globally, not about its own small, ageing population.

But NG is a good way to go generally; Cummins Westport will sell you a nice clean, quieter CNG or LPG motor that'll plug straight in to your chassis. Again, the high-pressure tanks mess up the numbers, so the appeal is limited ATM.


longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 14:33
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https://electrek.co/2019/01/21/toyota-panasonic-ev-battery-cell-venture-report/

Toyota is wisely hedging its bets either on EVs or there is about be a Hybrid increase across production lines.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-21-2019 21:22
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longhorn wrote:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/21/toyota-panasonic-ev-battery-cell-venture-report/

Toyota is wisely hedging its bets either on EVs or there is about be a Hybrid increase across production lines.



"ELECTRIFICATION" is happening in a big way right now and won't be going away. Everything that's 'electrified' is going to need a battery store of some sort, ranging anywhere in capacity from 1kWh to 100kWh or more, depending upon application.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2019 15:58
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H2 is definitely on the losing side of the PR battle. It's a shame too because if you were pragmatic about it, you'd use excess wind and solar energy beyond required the baseload and use it to create H2 for easier energy storage and a fuel for use in vehicles.

Nick GravesX wrote:
Gofaster,

Probably because of the CO^2 religion: NG IC engines still 'pollute' near the exhaust.

Plus, Toyota thinks globally, not about its own small, ageing population.

But NG is a good way to go generally; Cummins Westport will sell you a nice clean, quieter CNG or LPG motor that'll plug straight in to your chassis. Again, the high-pressure tanks mess up the numbers, so the appeal is limited ATM.




My 'preference' between LPG and CNG is actually LPG. The reason being that there are already "zero-NOx" LPG systems out there for commercial, and LPG tanks rarely exceed 300psi vs. CNG's several thousand. Granted, with CNG it's nice not needing a fuel pump, but the tanks are literal tanks and the fuel is just harder to handle. LPG vehicles are pretty close in performance to petrol as they currently are. It's more probable for commercial LPG vehicles to displace diesel than it is for BEVs I think.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2019 16:23
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CarPhreakD wrote:
H2 is definitely on the losing side of the PR battle. It's a shame too because if you were pragmatic about it, you'd use excess wind and solar energy beyond required the baseload and use it to create H2 for easier energy storage and a fuel for use in vehicles.

Nick GravesX wrote:
Gofaster,

Probably because of the CO^2 religion: NG IC engines still 'pollute' near the exhaust.

Plus, Toyota thinks globally, not about its own small, ageing population.

But NG is a good way to go generally; Cummins Westport will sell you a nice clean, quieter CNG or LPG motor that'll plug straight in to your chassis. Again, the high-pressure tanks mess up the numbers, so the appeal is limited ATM.




My 'preference' between LPG and CNG is actually LPG. The reason being that there are already "zero-NOx" LPG systems out there for commercial, and LPG tanks rarely exceed 300psi vs. CNG's several thousand. Granted, with CNG it's nice not needing a fuel pump, but the tanks are literal tanks and the fuel is just harder to handle. LPG vehicles are pretty close in performance to petrol as they currently are. It's more probable for commercial LPG vehicles to displace diesel than it is for BEVs I think.



Its already happening in new cruise ships. LNG cruise will be debuting soon from Carnival and RCL.
http://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/news-headlines/number-of-firm-lng-cruise-newbuilds-climbs-to-19.html

https://www.caribjournal.com/2018/11/15/carnival-launches-construction-on-first-ever-lng-cruise-ship/

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2019 16:23
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CarPhreakD wrote:
H2 is definitely on the losing side of the PR battle. It's a shame too because if you were pragmatic about it, you'd use excess wind and solar energy beyond required the baseload and use it to create H2 for easier energy storage and a fuel for use in vehicles.

Nick GravesX wrote:
Gofaster,

Probably because of the CO^2 religion: NG IC engines still 'pollute' near the exhaust.

Plus, Toyota thinks globally, not about its own small, ageing population.

But NG is a good way to go generally; Cummins Westport will sell you a nice clean, quieter CNG or LPG motor that'll plug straight in to your chassis. Again, the high-pressure tanks mess up the numbers, so the appeal is limited ATM.




My 'preference' between LPG and CNG is actually LPG. The reason being that there are already "zero-NOx" LPG systems out there for commercial, and LPG tanks rarely exceed 300psi vs. CNG's several thousand. Granted, with CNG it's nice not needing a fuel pump, but the tanks are literal tanks and the fuel is just harder to handle. LPG vehicles are pretty close in performance to petrol as they currently are. It's more probable for commercial LPG vehicles to displace diesel than it is for BEVs I think.




Now that some people (and the media) are starting to wise up to the shit show that's going on with the world's biggest BEV grandstander, maybe more people will start exploring the alternatives with less prejudice.

MAYBE



Nick GravesX
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Re: Toyota: Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles will eventually be cheaper than gasoline-powered cars    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2019 18:41
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CarPhreakD wrote:
H2 is definitely on the losing side of the PR battle. It's a shame too because if you were pragmatic about it, you'd use excess wind and solar energy beyond required the baseload and use it to create H2 for easier energy storage and a fuel for use in vehicles.

Nick GravesX wrote:
Gofaster,

Probably because of the CO^2 religion: NG IC engines still 'pollute' near the exhaust.

Plus, Toyota thinks globally, not about its own small, ageing population.

But NG is a good way to go generally; Cummins Westport will sell you a nice clean, quieter CNG or LPG motor that'll plug straight in to your chassis. Again, the high-pressure tanks mess up the numbers, so the appeal is limited ATM.




My 'preference' between LPG and CNG is actually LPG. The reason being that there are already "zero-NOx" LPG systems out there for commercial, and LPG tanks rarely exceed 300psi vs. CNG's several thousand. Granted, with CNG it's nice not needing a fuel pump, but the tanks are literal tanks and the fuel is just harder to handle. LPG vehicles are pretty close in performance to petrol as they currently are. It's more probable for commercial LPG vehicles to displace diesel than it is for BEVs I think.



Cannot disagree with that!

I think the difference over here is that we have quite a lot of (C)NG, so it seems the favoured alternative. Plus the 'cleaner' emissions and despite the expensive bombs on the chassis.

Though it's also that the mfr.s can sell the same unit to a generating company and plug it into the gas main for district/emergency electricity.

Though due to high taxation, a lot of people in UK and Holland have an old gas-guzzler converted to LPG. Old V8 Range Rovers are a prime candidate.

I think the upshot is, if the World Gov't REALLY wants to clean up cities quickly and Be Seen To Be Doing Something, they'd offer Boondoggles to urban distributors to convert to CNG (or even LPG). It's plug n' play, whereas BEVs are largely stupid and FCEVs too far in the future.

If it nakes sense for the Big Rigs, the little cars would surely follow.


 
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