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TOV Forums > Audio & Electronics > > Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing

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GoFaster
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Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2018 11:57
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With the demise of disc players in cars, what is the point of paying extra for great audio that ends up playing MP3s? From some manufactures it is many thousands of dollars. I have still have DVD-A and 24/96 discs, but new cars wonít play them. So 16 speakers playing MP3s is better than 15 speakers I suppose, but really itís lacking the ability to push high fidelity.

Has anyone found an easy, and I mean easy not 14 steps and 3 hours per disk, way to get high fidelity discs onto flash drives without a loss of quality and will play in their RDX?

As a side note, its really amazing that audio has gone down the tubes and there is no demand for better quality. Will 5G bring surround sound streaming?

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2018 12:26
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The new Bluetooth 4.0 and 5.0 versions are suppose to allow for CD quality streaming along with APTX. However, you need a phone that has the new version and radio. The Acura HU may be Bluetooth 4.0

Maybe manufacturers will follow Tesla lead and include subscription services (Tesla has Slacker......ugh), so maybe some manufactures will include Tidal subscription services like they do with satellite radio.

Also, software to uncompress the mp3 signal is becoming more common. Right now the software is on luxury make cars, but I expect it to spread into the mainstream too. That is realistically the next battle ground in car audio. Who can make software to make your mp3s sound best.

stuman
Profile for stuman
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-20-2018 23:40
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As far as audio quality? I still like the old system.
I still play CD's on my 2009 accord, with a/d/s signal processor 642ix and PH15.2 6 channel amp along with 325is front 325i/M back from a system that I originally installed on 92 accord.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-21-2018 03:39
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stuman wrote:
As far as audio quality? I still like the old system.
I still play CD's on my 2009 accord, with a/d/s signal processor 642ix and PH15.2 6 channel amp along with 325is front 325i/M back from a system that I originally installed on 92 accord.



Wow,that's name I have not heard in forever, A D S. They made some awesome sounding speakers back in the day.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-21-2018 08:01
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Copying my CDs to my main storage drive at home using Media Player set to CD quality takes maybe five minutes per disk. Copying what I want from that drive to memory sticks for my car is quick. It's low tech for 2018 but the sound quality in the car seems to match that of the CDs.
CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-21-2018 09:13
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What I settled on is copying Apple Lossless versions of my CDs onto an iPod and then hooking the iPod up via USB. On a good system like the ELS setup in my TLX the result is better sound than you get from lossy MP3s. Get an iPod with lots of storage and you can put a lot of music on it, despite the larger files.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-31-2018 14:08
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longhorn wrote:
stuman wrote:
As far as audio quality? I still like the old system.
I still play CD's on my 2009 accord, with a/d/s signal processor 642ix and PH15.2 6 channel amp along with 325is front 325i/M back from a system that I originally installed on 92 accord.



Wow,that's name I have not heard in forever, A D S. They made some awesome sounding speakers back in the day.




I still have my original pair of ADS L810s. Bought new in 1978.

In excellent shape with beautiful walnut. Currently doing duty in the dining room as stands for my wife's neon sign collection. We do have way too much audio stuff in the house!

I also have a pair of L300s in walls. I had them in the walls for about four years and then we rebuilt the house and I replaced them with four PSB in ceiling surrounds. I've been thinking of buying a cabinet for them, they come in a plate configuration.

ADS was always known for their "East Coast" sound. The L500 (I owned a pair once) was one of the best American small bookshelf speakers. The 300 (in metal box) was the first American monitor.

Then you had the dual woofer 710, 810 and 910. IMHO, the 710 sounds great, but the 810 adds quite a bit more bass extension while maintaining the fast and linear bass (no bass hump like the JBL L100 Century).

Naturally, don't expect them to image that well. They are 40 years old by now, but with a good audio system in front of them, like my Marantz 2325 or Sansui G7500, they sound awesome playing stuff like Clapton.

Eventually they designed larger speakers, but, IMHO, they never reached the quality of the originals.

TonyEX
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-31-2018 14:44
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CarmB wrote:
What I settled on is copying Apple Lossless versions of my CDs onto an iPod and then hooking the iPod up via USB. On a good system like the ELS setup in my TLX the result is better sound than you get from lossy MP3s. Get an iPod with lots of storage and you can put a lot of music on it, despite the larger files.


I gave up trying to get good audio in a car.

ELS was (is) a great idea, the Ridgeline is boomy and the Clarity is clean but lacks deep bass. Yet is seems to work fine with XM at low levels.

The last time I truly enjoyed car audio was in the TSX with a Dead 5.1 DVD-A. Before that with the TL and home made CD-Rs from my own LP recordings.

It seems like the more the technology allows better reproduction, the less people want it. With technology that will easily provide 120 db of dynamic range, music (*) is being recorded with less than 10 db of dynamic range, lossy processing is still being used when terabytes of storage are cheap and bandwidth is being underutilized.

Most everything today has "spectacular" bass, "sizzling" treble and a U shaped tonal spectrum (with the midrange several db down from the bass and treble).

Bah, why bother?

Listen to a well recorded LP from the 70s... anything before they studios went digital in the early 80s (**), don't bother with the "remastered" versions... and you will hear good sound. Or listen to Chesky's, and the like, recordings.

Many of the good recordings are offered in High Resolution downloads. I've heard them and they sound very good, but since I got 4000+ LPs I just don't have the time to redo it again: my home made media server is for ripped DVDs, LP recordings and a few CDs (most Dead live recordings).

I've been recording my LPs for years as 24/96... but I just upgraded my preamp and got a new cartridge last year, so pretty much I got to re-record everything.

For CD ripping, I still have a few hundred, I use Audiograbber or Spin it Again ( that one is not free ).

https://www.audiograbber.org/download.html

(*) If you can call that crap music... that is.
(**) By all means, ignore DG's recordings that were done in Digital. They are some of the worst!




CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-31-2018 16:57
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I would say that for serious listening, the automotive setting is inappropriate. You should be paying attention to your driving and no matter how quiet a vehicle is, there will always be some distracting background sounds, however subtle.

Still, what I have found is that there is, for me, an audible difference between feeding lossy files to a capable system like the ELS system Acura is using versus feeding it lossless files via a device like the iPod. Itís not so much that this results in true, audiophile sound so much as it produces a more pleasing result for a flawed setting. Lossy files are for me a step too far in offering up convenience. Even the standard settled on for CDs, for some, takes it all to an unacceptable place but Iím not all that picky. Apple lossless files get you ballpark to using CDs and that isnít at all bad in an automotive environment. Considering how much effort and money I sank into preparing cassettes for my cars back in the day, several hundred dollars for the iPod to put in excess of 4,000 songs at my disposal seems like quite a good arrangement overall.

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-31-2018 20:14
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CarmB wrote:
I would say that for serious listening, the automotive setting is inappropriate. You should be paying attention to your driving and no matter how quiet a vehicle is, there will always be some distracting background sounds, however subtle.

Still, what I have found is that there is, for me, an audible difference between feeding lossy files to a capable system like the ELS system Acura is using versus feeding it lossless files via a device like the iPod. Itís not so much that this results in true, audiophile sound so much as it produces a more pleasing result for a flawed setting. Lossy files are for me a step too far in offering up convenience. Even the standard settled on for CDs, for some, takes it all to an unacceptable place but Iím not all that picky. Apple lossless files get you ballpark to using CDs and that isnít at all bad in an automotive environment. Considering how much effort and money I sank into preparing cassettes for my cars back in the day, several hundred dollars for the iPod to put in excess of 4,000 songs at my disposal seems like quite a good arrangement overall.



Another good post. Didn't think I would agree with you again haha.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-31-2018 23:40
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CarmB wrote:
I would say that for serious listening, the automotive setting is inappropriate. You should be paying attention to your driving and no matter how quiet a vehicle is, there will always be some distracting background sounds, however subtle.

Still, what I have found is that there is, for me, an audible difference between feeding lossy files to a capable system like the ELS system Acura is using versus feeding it lossless files via a device like the iPod. Itís not so much that this results in true, audiophile sound so much as it produces a more pleasing result for a flawed setting. Lossy files are for me a step too far in offering up convenience. Even the standard settled on for CDs, for some, takes it all to an unacceptable place but Iím not all that picky. Apple lossless files get you ballpark to using CDs and that isnít at all bad in an automotive environment. Considering how much effort and money I sank into preparing cassettes for my cars back in the day, several hundred dollars for the iPod to put in excess of 4,000 songs at my disposal seems like quite a good arrangement overall.



I think I got a 160gB iPod somewhere. It's terrible that Apple dropped that product.

There are alternatives but they are all much, MUCH more expensive.

My cars currently all support some kind of smart phone interface and the phone does support 24/96 native playback. I also got a cable harness that supports simultaneous power charging, USB OTG control of a USB drive and other interfaces... so perhaps I could use that to hook up the phone, or tablet, to the car audio.

But, honestly, it's way too much of a hassle when I drive. Way too much. I just did a 2600 mile round trip and found that the built in XM, played at not too loud levels, listening to mostly 70/80s rock channels, was all we wanted.

I simply just rather enjoy my audio at home with my turntable, tubes, class A amps and Maggies. There is NO way you are ever gonna get that sound.

Exception is the idea of leasing a Krell'd RoLeX and parking it in the garage... running a wire from the home preamp to it, power it from an external battery charger and using it as a tuned listening room.

Cassettes.... oh yes... I used to lug around two suitcases with about 60 cassettes! Had a top of the line Akai cassette deck at home.




lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-01-2019 00:49
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Most cars still offer disc players but unfortunately DVD A is dead. Satellite Radio sucks for quality.

May want to look into a High Resolution Lossless Digital Audio Player to play music from if you want better MP3 quality, they aren't too expensive though I have yet to try it in a car.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077P96SWG/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0765ZVM6Y/ref=psdc_1264866011_t1_B01LQLS4AE


wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-01-2019 01:39
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I use a 500GB iPod touch with apple lossless files and I would challenge anyone to tell the difference between that and a CD in a car. The source is not the limiting factor in a vehicle with a factory stereo, the stereo is...
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-01-2019 11:22
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TonyEX wrote:
CarmB wrote:
I would say that for serious listening, the automotive setting is inappropriate. You should be paying attention to your driving and no matter how quiet a vehicle is, there will always be some distracting background sounds, however subtle.

Still, what I have found is that there is, for me, an audible difference between feeding lossy files to a capable system like the ELS system Acura is using versus feeding it lossless files via a device like the iPod. Itís not so much that this results in true, audiophile sound so much as it produces a more pleasing result for a flawed setting. Lossy files are for me a step too far in offering up convenience. Even the standard settled on for CDs, for some, takes it all to an unacceptable place but Iím not all that picky. Apple lossless files get you ballpark to using CDs and that isnít at all bad in an automotive environment. Considering how much effort and money I sank into preparing cassettes for my cars back in the day, several hundred dollars for the iPod to put in excess of 4,000 songs at my disposal seems like quite a good arrangement overall.



I think I got a 160gB iPod somewhere. It's terrible that Apple dropped that product.

There are alternatives but they are all much, MUCH more expensive.

My cars currently all support some kind of smart phone interface and the phone does support 24/96 native playback. I also got a cable harness that supports simultaneous power charging, USB OTG control of a USB drive and other interfaces... so perhaps I could use that to hook up the phone, or tablet, to the car audio.

But, honestly, it's way too much of a hassle when I drive. Way too much. I just did a 2600 mile round trip and found that the built in XM, played at not too loud levels, listening to mostly 70/80s rock channels, was all we wanted.

I simply just rather enjoy my audio at home with my turntable, tubes, class A amps and Maggies. There is NO way you are ever gonna get that sound.

Exception is the idea of leasing a Krell'd RoLeX and parking it in the garage... running a wire from the home preamp to it, power it from an external battery charger and using it as a tuned listening room.

Cassettes.... oh yes... I used to lug around two suitcases with about 60 cassettes! Had a top of the line Akai cassette deck at home.


I had one of the Akai mid-level decks and was very pleased. I then bought one of their VCRs in the late 1980s and I assume it was the product which nearly killed their company. I do miss that cassette deck though (drive bands haven't been available for it for years now because it was an '80s mid-fi Akai deck) and I miss having cassette in my car. Not that high quality cassettes have been available for years either. The memory stick idea works well enough.

You're also getting older if talk of East Coast vs. West Coast means speaker design to you. A co-worker bought a pair of the recent JBL LS-series towers, the LS60 version, five years ago or so but then decided to part of with them and I've been enjoying them for several months now. I had planned to buy a pair of the old-school Klipsch Heresy speakers but I'm happy with the JBLs. I'm running them bi-amped from the A+B outs from my old Pioneer receiver and they sound wonderful.

Anyway, there are a couple of things to consider with listening to modern audio files beyond file compression. The complaints about modern album recordings have been about recording levels being too hot but recording everything at 11 only became an issue once fully digital studio recording and mastering became available. Where's Max Headroom when you need him? The CDs I bought during the '80s and early '90s were AAD albums, the levels are set very low, and with proper amplification sound great.

So I guess I don't completely buy into the lossless vs. lossy comparisons because all recording means result in reduced resolution. I can't have Doc Severinsen or Mark Knopfler riding around with me in my car so I have to accept some degree of poor quality. When I say I'm using USB memory stick files in my car I've copied those files at CD resolution from the CDs I've purchased over the years which are what I consider to be high grade recordings. And there have been many CDs I've purchased in the past ten years which I've traded away because I thought they were terrible recordings. When any form of a drum sounds like a loud whoomp noise at the full CD resolution the recording was botched somewhere along the chain.

TL; DR = don't assume a song sounds awful simply because it's a lossy file. The lossy file may be a good copy of a horrible master recording.

PS: Find an original release print CD of Dire Straits Brothers in Arms and listen to it on good quality equipment to hear what CD resolution is capable of reproducing.

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-01-2019 20:19
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I can only offer a strictly subjective observation that the same source material using 320 AAC files does not seem as dynamic as the same source material reduced to lossless form, in my case of the Apple variety. Of course, it could be that I am hearing what I want to hear, to be noticing a difference that is more about expectations than actual results.

What can I say, I like how the lossless files drawn from my iPod sound in my car more than the AAC lossy files I also tried out. In a sense, whether or not itís about any real difference may just be beside the point. If I like it more, that in of itself may be all that matters. The best way I can describe this, subjectively speaking, is that with the 320 AAC files, it seems to me something is missing. I donít get the same feeling when I feed the system the lossless files. Those files seem quite similar to listening directly from a CD.

I would point out, though, that itís not simply about the quality of the files found on commercial CDs. D/A conversion matters as well. The iPod converts files for feeding to the auto amps and speakers. The CD player in the car does the same. Either one would have a hard time approaching the quality possible with the Arcam FMJ CD player I use in my home system. The D/A conversion of that unit is a whole other class of performance. My expectations, as such, are tempered accordingly.

Really, discussions of how format X compares to format Y is muddied by the variation in result that is caused by the quality of the equipment being used.

By the way, the built-in drive on my TLX is virtually useless. Even at its highest setting, the files stored on that built-in device are utterly out of place on a system as capable as the ELS set-up. Might as well have not been included.

TonyEX
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-02-2019 19:36
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(1) East vs. West Coast Sound... that was in reference to the ADS L810 comments elsewhere.

(2) I have all the original Dire Straits LPs and likely more than a couple of the MoFi reissues...

(3) Took the day off today. All by myself at home. Fired up the stereo, takes about an hour of warming up.. so I gave it two hours. Played this (got an original copy, likely a MoFi one too, but today I played the 180 gram "Pure Virgin Vinyl" DCC copy)... now, since I came from The Old World and I have lived in the three places he sings about, this song really hits (*)... I love it.

Honestly, I think I'll just buy the next used pair Pass Aleph 2s that come up and save some money to upgrade the table with a Lingo.

We drove to Seattle and back, XM was fine. We never played it too loud either.

Here: (I dare you to drive you car while listening to this...) (OK, good luck fitting a pair of Maggies in a car, never mind the amps, preamp and turntable!!).

She came from Providence,
the one in Rhode Island
Where the old world shadows hang
heavy in the air
She packed her hopes and dreams
like a refugee
Just as her father came across the sea

She heard about a place people were smilin'
They spoke about the red man's way,
how they loved the land
And they came from everywhere
to the Great Divide
Seeking a place to stand
or a place to hide

Down in the crowded bars,
out for a good time,
Can't wait to tell you all,
what it's like up there
And they called it paradise
I don't know why
Somebody laid the mountains low
while the town got high

Then the chilly winds blew down
Across the desert
through the canyons of the coast,
to the Malibu
Where the pretty people play,
hungry for power
to light their neon way
give them things to do

Some rich men came and raped the land,
Nobody caught 'em
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes,
and Jesus people bought 'em
'nd they called it paradise
The place to be
They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea

You can leave it all behind and sail to Lahaina
just like the missionaries did, so many years ago
They even brought a neon sign: "Jesus is coming"
Brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign

Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satisfy our endless needs and
justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny
and in the name of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye


(*) I really need to find a place to retire FAR away from people and politicians. I just need a Costco close enough. And, NOPE, I ain't moving East of the Rockies.


TonyEX
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-02-2019 19:42
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CarmB wrote:
I can only offer a strictly subjective observation that the same source material using 320 AAC files does not seem as dynamic as the same source material reduced to lossless form, in my case of the Apple variety. Of course, it could be that I am hearing what I want to hear, to be noticing a difference that is more about expectations than actual results.

What can I say, I like how the lossless files drawn from my iPod sound in my car more than the AAC lossy files I also tried out. In a sense, whether or not itís about any real difference may just be beside the point. If I like it more, that in of itself may be all that matters. The best way I can describe this, subjectively speaking, is that with the 320 AAC files, it seems to me something is missing. I donít get the same feeling when I feed the system the lossless files. Those files seem quite similar to listening directly from a CD.

I would point out, though, that itís not simply about the quality of the files found on commercial CDs. D/A conversion matters as well. The iPod converts files for feeding to the auto amps and speakers. The CD player in the car does the same. Either one would have a hard time approaching the quality possible with the Arcam FMJ CD player I use in my home system. The D/A conversion of that unit is a whole other class of performance. My expectations, as such, are tempered accordingly.

Really, discussions of how format X compares to format Y is muddied by the variation in result that is caused by the quality of the equipment being used.

By the way, the built-in drive on my TLX is virtually useless. Even at its highest setting, the files stored on that built-in device are utterly out of place on a system as capable as the ELS set-up. Might as well have not been included.




The HDD in the TLX is hobbled by the decision to use it to store only MP3s. IMHO, it's a disaster.

What I would like to see is the return of the analog audio input. I recall that some of my older Honda/Acuras had a jack low in the dash for an AUX analog input.

With an AUX analog input, you could drive an Android tablet with a HD (or built in storage) into an USB DAC (like the Nuforce uDAC, via USB OTG) and with a USB cable harness you could still charge both. Then you would drive the output of the DAC directly into the AUX input.

This way you could easily play high bit rate DSD and WAV files with ease.

Karl O.
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-05-2019 11:32
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GoFaster wrote:
With the demise of disc players in cars, what is the point of paying extra for great audio that ends up playing MP3s? From some manufactures it is many thousands of dollars. I have still have DVD-A and 24/96 discs, but new cars wonít play them. So 16 speakers playing MP3s is better than 15 speakers I suppose, but really itís lacking the ability to push high fidelity.

Has anyone found an easy, and I mean easy not 14 steps and 3 hours per disk, way to get high fidelity discs onto flash drives without a loss of quality and will play in their RDX?

As a side note, its really amazing that audio has gone down the tubes and there is no demand for better quality. Will 5G bring surround sound streaming?



There are workarounds to get high res in your car, if that's what you want.

The aftermarket has tons of options. And whatever comes off your phone is garbage. It's awful.

Fishbulb
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-05-2019 15:23
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There's really no advantage to lossless audio in a car. Only a trained ear with very high end equipment can discern reliably between a 320 mp3 and a lossless equivalent, and even then, most people who swear they can tell the difference are often left eating humble pie when they get it wrong in a blind test. And that's in ideal listening conditions.

Streaming bluetooth on the on the other hand, is a very noticeable downgrade.

I put my music collection on a thumbdrive, put it in the usb in the car, and it's as good as it's going to get.

TonyEX
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-06-2019 19:04
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Fishbulb wrote:
There's really no advantage to lossless audio in a car. Only a trained ear with very high end equipment can discern reliably between a 320 mp3 and a lossless equivalent, and even then, most people who swear they can tell the difference are often left eating humble pie when they get it wrong in a blind test. And that's in ideal listening conditions.

Streaming bluetooth on the on the other hand, is a very noticeable downgrade.

I put my music collection on a thumbdrive, put it in the usb in the car, and it's as good as it's going to get.



In order of quality, to my ears ( in the ELS'd Acuras I've had):

(1) DVD-A
(2) CD-Rs downrez'd from my own 24/96 recordings of LPs.
(3) XM

I hope you are aware that USB thumb drives are the worst place to keep stuff. Consider all of it highly volatile and keep it as cold as possible.

According to the NAND experts I've spoken with, the best place to keep an USB thumbdrive is in a freezer, tightly wrapped in foil.

Fishbulb
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-06-2019 19:32
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Nonsense and irrelavence.
TonyEX
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-06-2019 21:43
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Fishbulb wrote:
Nonsense and irrelavence.



Really?

So, are you telling me that you know more about the physics of NAND memory and the firmware used to maintain it than the R&D team at my current job? Let me remind you that I am in that R&D team too.

Wow, man! If you can figure out a way to make NAND less fragile it means you've found new physics and deserve a Nobel Price.

And, what is your reference for your dictate about the quality of audio?


THX17201
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-06-2019 21:56
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TonyEX wrote:


Wow, man! If you can figure out a way to make NAND less fragile it means you've found new physics and deserve a Nobel Price.





What is a Nobel Price?

I keep my music on a USB flash drive in my car all the time. Even in the summer and not garaged. It works just fine. And they are cheap enough that if it goes bad, oh well... I'll just pick up another one and put the mp3s on it and off I go with very little inconvenience.

superchg2
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 03:47
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TonyEX wrote:

Wow, man! If you can figure out a way to make NAND less fragile it means you've found new physics and deserve a Nobel Price.



Have you been drinking, again?

CarmB
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 08:01
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One advantage of storing music on an iPod and plugging that into the system is that you can easily access the particular track youíre looking for. The system can easily sort tracks off of such a device.

I realize itís popular to try and avoid anything Apple but on a number of fronts the iPod really is a great option for storing music to use with the ELS system.

I tried USB flash drives and frankly found them to be a real pain in the derriŤre. While the iPod option costs more, there comes a point where you need to ask yourself if itís worthwhile to spend more for additional convenience. In my case the answer is yes. To my ears, the lossless files deliver a higher quality of experience overall sonically and the iPod integrates well with the ELS system. It works. Iím satisfied.

Others can seek out alternatives. Iíve settled on what seems to deliver on what I want.

Over the years Iíve come to realize that the real waste of money is to mess around with something that doesnít quite hit the spot. I get restless, I keep trying different things, and ultimately wind up spending more than I would have opting for what seemed to be a pricier solution at the outset. Get it right in the first place and you donít waste time and money trying to avoid paying that extra bit for what is a good solution.

Then again, Iíve settled on what works for me. Others, I presume, have done the same and not necessarily arrived at the same set-up. All we can do is offer up options.

longhorn
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 09:22
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Again, the next frontier in OEM premium audio will be who's software ( Harmon, Bose, etc) will be able to "unpack" your condensed MP3 files the best. The higher OEM systems have it and I expect in a couple of year for the tech to be standard on all OEM sytems.

OEM systems are no longer about hardware now but software.

CarmB
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Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 10:41
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longhorn wrote:
Again, the next frontier in OEM premium audio will be who's software ( Harmon, Bose, etc) will be able to "unpack" your condensed MP3 files the best. The higher OEM systems have it and I expect in a couple of year for the tech to be standard on all OEM sytems.

OEM systems are no longer about hardware now but software.




Premium audio and MP3 do not belong in the same sentence.

Simply using a lossless format removes the issue of shortcomings in playback caused by lossy compression. Advances are being made in storage technology which means not having enough storage space to accommodate larger files is fading as a drawback. My 128GB iPod holds in excess of 4,000 songs (4,788 to be exact) which certainly gives a lot of material to work with.

As for extracting quality from a file, you canít take out what isnít there. Lossy files discard data and once itís gone itís gone. Artificially putting in data to make something sound more like someoneís interpretation of the original is not ideal and utterly unnecessary. If lossless compression means with current storage technology that you can carry 4,000+ songs with ease, seriously, trying to make MP3 lossy files deliver the desired result is rather pointless. No doubt, solid state storage tech has more potential and as such 128GB capacity will soon enough be cheaper.

Ideally, what we ought to see is premium OEM systems featuring lossless compression with sufficient storage capacity to load thousands of songs into the system. I donít doubt that eventually it will go there.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 18:27
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THX17201 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:


Wow, man! If you can figure out a way to make NAND less fragile it means you've found new physics and deserve a Nobel Price.





What is a Nobel Price?

I keep my music on a USB flash drive in my car all the time. Even in the summer and not garaged. It works just fine. And they are cheap enough that if it goes bad, oh well... I'll just pick up another one and put the mp3s on it and off I go with very little inconvenience.



The reason why your NAND hasn't kicked the bucket is because everytime you apply power to it, the firmware will go to work, read the data and move it around when it finds rows of cells that have degraded. What it does is read it and then write it elsewhere. When you rewrite it, you refresh the state of that transistor.

And it's also using the simplest, cheapest type of NAND. It can only store a single bit, OFF or ON. Which means it can degrade quite a bit before it loses its logic state.

But, at some point, it will lose its ability to write, because the NAND cells can only withstand so many writes.

If you leave your USB stick in the car, in the sun, on a hot day and don't power it for a few days you may start to see unrecoverable data loses.

This is not purely theoretical, my daughter had that issue once. Thankfully, she kept her data safe in her home PC and only copied it to the USB drive for use in her car.

The NAND cells are a specially type of transistor, you see. With an additional gate. That's how it keeps the charge. But they are subject to entropy and heat is the worst kind.

THINK... data farms are kept cold, why? Because heat is the destructor of electronics and SDDs are heat generators...

That's why you don't want to use SDD and anything with flash as archival material. If you want to do that, use a magnetic hard drive and power it up about once a year.

BTW, don't do RAID with SDDs either. You will wear them out.



TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 18:31
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CarmB wrote:
One advantage of storing music on an iPod and plugging that into the system is that you can easily access the particular track youíre looking for. The system can easily sort tracks off of such a device.

I realize itís popular to try and avoid anything Apple but on a number of fronts the iPod really is a great option for storing music to use with the ELS system.

I tried USB flash drives and frankly found them to be a real pain in the derriŤre. While the iPod option costs more, there comes a point where you need to ask yourself if itís worthwhile to spend more for additional convenience. In my case the answer is yes. To my ears, the lossless files deliver a higher quality of experience overall sonically and the iPod integrates well with the ELS system. It works. Iím satisfied.

Others can seek out alternatives. Iíve settled on what seems to deliver on what I want.

Over the years Iíve come to realize that the real waste of money is to mess around with something that doesnít quite hit the spot. I get restless, I keep trying different things, and ultimately wind up spending more than I would have opting for what seemed to be a pricier solution at the outset. Get it right in the first place and you donít waste time and money trying to avoid paying that extra bit for what is a good solution.

Then again, Iíve settled on what works for me. Others, I presume, have done the same and not necessarily arrived at the same set-up. All we can do is offer up options.



The iPod was a revolutionary platform and I can't believe Apple dropped it.

You can buy stuff from other vendors nowadays, but you'll pay 1000 bucks or more. However they carry MUCH BETTER DACs than the iPod. Which is sort of useless if the car stereo doesn't have an analog AUX input. (Hint, they don't anymore..).

I don't know what bit rates the built in Android/Apple DACs will support. But at the very minimum they should support 24/96 bit rates.


longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Audiophiles Ė What Am I Missing    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-07-2019 19:14
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CarmB wrote:
longhorn wrote:
Again, the next frontier in OEM premium audio will be who's software ( Harmon, Bose, etc) will be able to "unpack" your condensed MP3 files the best. The higher OEM systems have it and I expect in a couple of year for the tech to be standard on all OEM sytems.

OEM systems are no longer about hardware now but software.




Premium audio and MP3 do not belong in the same sentence.

Simply using a lossless format removes the issue of shortcomings in playback caused by lossy compression. Advances are being made in storage technology which means not having enough storage space to accommodate larger files is fading as a drawback. My 128GB iPod holds in excess of 4,000 songs (4,788 to be exact) which certainly gives a lot of material to work with.

As for extracting quality from a file, you canít take out what isnít there. Lossy files discard data and once itís gone itís gone. Artificially putting in data to make something sound more like someoneís interpretation of the original is not ideal and utterly unnecessary. If lossless compression means with current storage technology that you can carry 4,000+ songs with ease, seriously, trying to make MP3 lossy files deliver the desired result is rather pointless. No doubt, solid state storage tech has more potential and as such 128GB capacity will soon enough be cheaper.

Ideally, what we ought to see is premium OEM systems featuring lossless compression with sufficient storage capacity to load thousands of songs into the system. I donít doubt that eventually it will go there.



The tech is here and on the market.

http://www.clarifisound.com/

This and competing software will only get better over time. Is it as good as a uncompressed master studio, heck no, but its better than nothing.


 
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