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  TOV News > American Honda Reports November Sales > > Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap

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saitamahonda
Profile for saitamahonda
Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-04-2018 16:24
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Goes without saying the Urban EV can't come soon enough. A non off-road CUV that can seat up to 7 as well. Bring the Skydeck to production, or make the Acura version of Avancier/URV a hybrid or EV.

Honda is losing customers to Tesla and other brands making formidable EVs. I know a few, and only a few have opted for Clarity plug in hybrid.

TL_06
Profile for TL_06
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-04-2018 18:23
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How many Chevy Bolts or Nissan Leafs were sold in the U.S. last month? How many people cross-shop Accords and Tesla Model 3s? Your thesis is absolutely silly.
HondaDad
Profile for HondaDad
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-04-2018 22:45
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I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading

dysonlu
Profile for dysonlu
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 02:18
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Without actual numbers, it is meaningless.
JPM52
Profile for JPM52
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 10:33
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saitamahonda wrote:
Goes without saying the Urban EV can't come soon enough. A non off-road CUV that can seat up to 7 as well. Bring the Skydeck to production, or make the Acura version of Avancier/URV a hybrid or EV.

Honda is losing customers to Tesla and other brands making formidable EVs. I know a few, and only a few have opted for Clarity plug in hybrid.



That's a niche market currently.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 11:04
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HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



The Accord and Civic are two of the five best selling cars in the country. It isnít surprising in the least that they are both on the list.

I want the Urban EV here in the states (with actual mirrors) as much as anyone btw.

HondaDad
Profile for HondaDad
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 12:41
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Fitdad wrote:
HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



The Accord and Civic are two of the five best selling cars in the country. It isnít surprising in the least that they are both on the list.





Why isn't the Camry and Corolla on the top five list? They are also in the top five of car sales. It's interesting that the much lower volume BMW 3 series, Nissan Leaf, and Toyota Prius are also on the top five list. Why are Honda's mainstream cars more likely to get traded for a Tesla than Toyota's most popular cars?

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 13:52
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HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



Tesla is a status car.

You can get a Clarity PHEV for tens of thousands of dollars less than the Tesla 3, it will be MUCH better built and has NO range anxiety.

If you have a short daily range, then I suggest the Clarity BEV because AHM has an awesome deal. There are several in the parking structure at my work (we have a whole row of stalls to charge BEVs, I think they can charge 18 cars at a time) and yet people are limited to four hours of charging so it has become a huge fight between employees, I hear (three of my team's co-workers have Teslas, one has an S and an X!).

Furthermore, the short range of the Clarity BEV is actually a blessing as you can actually charge it for 100 mile range off 120VAC in less than overnight.

BEVs such as Tesla are OK for a second/third car when you have a garage with 240V and your utility gives a time based rate.

There are LOTS of Teslas in my neighborhood, a few 3s but mostly everyone get the S and the X. All of those neighbors have at least three cars, and the other two are typically a Big German/Japanese SUV and a Big German/Japanese car.

People trading an ICE or Hybrid for a BEV have drunk the Kool Aid and are in for a harsh surprise.

Just like those people buying Mirai without understanding the strategy of H2 distribution.

At this point in time, an FCEV or BEV will NOT replace an ICE powered car. If you want "greeness" then go for a series hybrid (*) or a PHEV.

Seriously, I've love to see how happy those Model 3 owners that traded in their Honda will be like next year. The quality of Teslas is abysmal. People, like my neighbors, that are used to putting up with the servicing needs of a German car don't see too much of an impact when they have Tesla come and service their $100K S and X...

...but how about those who traded a $30K Honda for a $55K Tesla 3? You don't think Tesla is going to treat the Tesla 3 market the way they support the High Dollar S and X?

WTF are they thinking?

(*) Much better than parallel, ie: Synergy.



Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 13:53
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HondaDad wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



The Accord and Civic are two of the five best selling cars in the country. It isnít surprising in the least that they are both on the list.





Why isn't the Camry and Corolla on the top five list? They are also in the top five of car sales. It's interesting that the much lower volume BMW 3 series, Nissan Leaf, and Toyota Prius are also on the top five list. Why are Honda's mainstream cars more likely to get traded for a Tesla than Toyota's most popular cars?



This is all my opinion but:

Different kinds of buyers. We get a bit myopic on TOV - the VAST majority of people honestly don't care what they drive. They want something that they "like" but other than that they just don't care like we do. Transmissions, engine, suspension, "platform"? Don't care. My wife is one of these buyers (she has had TWO Corollas).

It's a gross generalization but Camry/Corolla buyers fall into the category of "don't care". There are two data points to back this up: the corolla especially hasn't been competitive in the segment for 10+ years - but neither is a class leader/basically always lose to the Honda in a comparo - and yet still sell like crazy. And Toyota's incentives are almost always higher than Honda's. Remember when the Camry launched with 0% and lease deals?

So the filter almost happens naturally: buyers who "just want a car" are driven to the Camry/Corolla because of the "deal" and because they have a pretty good reliability record. (I'm sort of underselling that here - it's obviously important.)

Buyers who understand a bit about competitive comparisons, about how a car "drives", about the behavior of the mechanical bits...they are all naturally filtered towards the Civic and Accord. And the "deal" usually isn't as good so they have to like the car enough to spend more money.

If you're buying a Tesla Model 3 right now you care about what you drive. You read reviews. You understand the mechanics. You're willing to spend more money.

So having the Civic and Accord on this list are not surprising.

The 3 series is on the list for a combination of available volume (like the Civic/Accord), caring about what you drive, and style. BMW should be way more worried than Honda right now.

The Leaf and Prius are "environmental" buyers of the model 3 - it's natural that they would be attracted to such a vehicle.

I usually don't like generalizing but I didn't know how else to explain this. Toyota sells enough volume that they have all kinds of loyal fans who really do truly "like" them and I'm not intending to minimize their opinions - I'm also sure any number of Toyota drivers have turned in their Toyota's for a Model 3 - but you asked and the above is my answer.

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-06-2018 16:24
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Fitdad wrote:
HondaDad wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



The Accord and Civic are two of the five best selling cars in the country. It isnít surprising in the least that they are both on the list.





Why isn't the Camry and Corolla on the top five list? They are also in the top five of car sales. It's interesting that the much lower volume BMW 3 series, Nissan Leaf, and Toyota Prius are also on the top five list. Why are Honda's mainstream cars more likely to get traded for a Tesla than Toyota's most popular cars?



This is all my opinion but:

Different kinds of buyers. We get a bit myopic on TOV - the VAST majority of people honestly don't care what they drive. They want something that they "like" but other than that they just don't care like we do. Transmissions, engine, suspension, "platform"? Don't care. My wife is one of these buyers (she has had TWO Corollas).

It's a gross generalization but Camry/Corolla buyers fall into the category of "don't care". There are two data points to back this up: the corolla especially hasn't been competitive in the segment for 10+ years - but neither is a class leader/basically always lose to the Honda in a comparo - and yet still sell like crazy. And Toyota's incentives are almost always higher than Honda's. Remember when the Camry launched with 0% and lease deals?

So the filter almost happens naturally: buyers who "just want a car" are driven to the Camry/Corolla because of the "deal" and because they have a pretty good reliability record. (I'm sort of underselling that here - it's obviously important.)

Buyers who understand a bit about competitive comparisons, about how a car "drives", about the behavior of the mechanical bits...they are all naturally filtered towards the Civic and Accord. And the "deal" usually isn't as good so they have to like the car enough to spend more money.

If you're buying a Tesla Model 3 right now you care about what you drive. You read reviews. You understand the mechanics. You're willing to spend more money.

So having the Civic and Accord on this list are not surprising.

The 3 series is on the list for a combination of available volume (like the Civic/Accord), caring about what you drive, and style. BMW should be way more worried than Honda right now.

The Leaf and Prius are "environmental" buyers of the model 3 - it's natural that they would be attracted to such a vehicle.

I usually don't like generalizing but I didn't know how else to explain this. Toyota sells enough volume that they have all kinds of loyal fans who really do truly "like" them and I'm not intending to minimize their opinions - I'm also sure any number of Toyota drivers have turned in their Toyota's for a Model 3 - but you asked and the above is my answer.




+1


HondaDad
Profile for HondaDad
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-07-2018 11:51
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@Fitdad - great answer. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!
incubus
Profile for incubus
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-07-2018 13:27
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HondaDad wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
HondaDad wrote:
I'm shopping for a Tesla 3 over an Accord (my second choice). Accord and Civic are both on the top five list of vehicles traded in for 3s.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/these-are-top-five-cars-model-3-buyers-are-trading



The Accord and Civic are two of the five best selling cars in the country. It isnít surprising in the least that they are both on the list.





Why isn't the Camry and Corolla on the top five list? They are also in the top five of car sales. It's interesting that the much lower volume BMW 3 series, Nissan Leaf, and Toyota Prius are also on the top five list. Why are Honda's mainstream cars more likely to get traded for a Tesla than Toyota's most popular cars?


Do you see many rental car companies with model 3s?
Tons of Camry and Corollas are rental fleet. Yesterday I returned my Camry rental to the Charlotte airport and it was one of five at that location at the time for that specific rental agency. There were 4 Corollas.

saitamahonda
Profile for saitamahonda
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-11-2018 04:45
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If you've driven a Tesla, particularly a Model 3, you will be impressed with the drive train and performance. It is like a super car. No friggin joke. And it's only the 3. I rode in it in a test track and it performed exceptionally well. The 3 has the best build quality of all the Teslas so far, and early Model 3s had gap tolerance issues as well as bad paint jobs. Later 3s have been better, as evident in my brother's new model 3 compared to the one I had for a week.

Granted, fit and finish, creature comfort, interior material quality was mediocre, but the screen and its features were very impressive. No volume knob in this car, too. View out the rear was pointless, but the rear facing camera on screen makes up for it.

You can buy Model S pre-owned now for under $40k, and if there's any hope that there will be parts and service available for 5years to come then it might entice buyers. I'm holding out for the Accord MMC and a plug in or EV from Honda before making a decision on an EV. Hopefully my 3GTL holds up until then.

Karp
Profile for Karp
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-13-2018 10:35
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TonyEX, I have been driving a Model3 exclusively since July and let me tell you, it is by far the best car I have ever owned. I don't need a second or third car, with over 300 mile range, and the supercharger network there is no need to have multiple cars. I wake up every morning with a range of 300 miles. how many people drive more than 100 in a day? Long road trips are no problem either, the car directs you to the superchargers, and tells you how long to charge for in order to get to your destination. My fit and finish are on par with other cars I have owned, including Honda and acura and have had zero issues. The OEM's are in trouble if they don't see the change that is taking place right in front of them. The model 3 is taking over, and just wait until 2020 when the Model Y is released, and selling 20k+ units a month, the RDX and Honda will not know what hit it unless they get in the game.
The instant torque is unlike anything, the technology can not be matched and once more people drive one or are given rides they will come to understand the benefit of electric. Sales of ICE cars have no were to go but down. My car has gotten better since I purchased thanks to over the air updates, which by the way, don't cost anything. The car literally gets better over time. And on top of that, there is no stopping at gas stations, no oil changes, no belts, no filters, I can go on.... I don't see myself ever buying another ICE vehicle.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Honda needs pure EVs asap [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-13-2018 15:35
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Karp wrote:
TonyEX, I have been driving a Model3 exclusively since July and let me tell you, it is by far the best car I have ever owned. I don't need a second or third car, with over 300 mile range, and the supercharger network there is no need to have multiple cars. I wake up every morning with a range of 300 miles. how many people drive more than 100 in a day? Long road trips are no problem either, the car directs you to the superchargers, and tells you how long to charge for in order to get to your destination. My fit and finish are on par with other cars I have owned, including Honda and acura and have had zero issues. The OEM's are in trouble if they don't see the change that is taking place right in front of them. The model 3 is taking over, and just wait until 2020 when the Model Y is released, and selling 20k+ units a month, the RDX and Honda will not know what hit it unless they get in the game.
The instant torque is unlike anything, the technology can not be matched and once more people drive one or are given rides they will come to understand the benefit of electric. Sales of ICE cars have no were to go but down. My car has gotten better since I purchased thanks to over the air updates, which by the way, don't cost anything. The car literally gets better over time. And on top of that, there is no stopping at gas stations, no oil changes, no belts, no filters, I can go on.... I don't see myself ever buying another ICE vehicle.



Next week we're driving to the Puget Sound. A bit over 1200 miles because we will be taking a detour East a bit to pick up my son by the Bay Area. Being winter, we'll do it in two day.

First day 730 miles, second day 500. Very fast stops for gas, most 15 minutes to Numero Uno, buy more beef jerky and Gas Her Up.

Also, I don't have 240V in my house and don't want to do it because if I moved to a timed rate I would have to buy $22K in new AC equipment because otherwise my old ones would eat me alive running during the daytime hours on summer.

The BEV is a huge inconvenience. So is the FCEV -to a different extent. One of my coworkers just got a Model 3. He has a round trip to work of 120 miles every day and he spends his day gaming the charging stations at work because he rents. Yesterday I had to give him a ride during lunch because his car was charging up. Oh, I was driving the Clarity FCEV.

Hell, our FCEV is our other car (we're down to three) and I can fill it up at anyone of three stations within 8 miles of my home/work.

What BEV drivers (mostly the Tesla Acolytes), the ones I've met, always confuse is that an EV must be a BEV. Nyet, nope, no sale... an EV can be a number of things... the main point is that the electric motor drives the wheels. EVs can be serial hybrids, fuel cells, battery, etc...

No man, BEVs are NOT the future. You have drunk the Kool Aid.

You sound like those people in San Franciscovich and Sacramentograd that pass those laws and regulations that make everything so expensive. It's why our water heaters, AC, everything including utilities are so expensive. What's so good for the environment when you can not afford to run what you got efficiently nor afford to get the upgrade? Nothing good. So people are stuck using old cars and appliances.

After all, you don't expect lower and middle class people to buy $50K cars, do you?







 
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