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  TOV News > 2019 Honda Passport Makes World Debut: Adventure-Ready All-New 5-passenger SUV at 2018 LA Auto Show > > Re: So confusing....

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notyper
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So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 02:29
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I understand the desire Honda might have to expand their SUV lineup. Like it or not that market is growing and having more diverse offerings to satisfy customers is important.

But beyond that, why pitch this thing as a more special "off-road capable" vehicle? The Pilot isn't particularly capable in the first place and I don't see this thing having dramatically improved off-road abilities. Never mind that no off-roader is going to want 50 series tires going on anything more than a groomed dirt road. Off-road means you need more sidewall, not less.

Having played with a 1st gen Ridgeline off-road and done some dyno work on the Baja Ridgeline, I know that Honda platforms can do ok off the beaten track. But pitching a mid-size, unibody, FWD based platform that's been shortened a bit, with the whole off-road putsch just seems silly.

This might be a really great vehicle. Might be more popular than the Pilot. But the way they've marketed it on launch makes no sense.

SC

RMTRADER
Profile for RMTRADER
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 08:41
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notyper wrote:
I understand the desire Honda might have to expand their SUV lineup. Like it or not that market is growing and having more diverse offerings to satisfy customers is important.

But beyond that, why pitch this thing as a more special "off-road capable" vehicle? The Pilot isn't particularly capable in the first place and I don't see this thing having dramatically improved off-road abilities. Never mind that no off-roader is going to want 50 series tires going on anything more than a groomed dirt road. Off-road means you need more sidewall, not less.

Having played with a 1st gen Ridgeline off-road and done some dyno work on the Baja Ridgeline, I know that Honda platforms can do ok off the beaten track. But pitching a mid-size, unibody, FWD based platform that's been shortened a bit, with the whole off-road putsch just seems silly.

This might be a really great vehicle. Might be more popular than the Pilot. But the way they've marketed it on launch makes no sense.

SC



I was under the belief that the Passport further differentiated itself from the Pilot with 2" of ground clearance additional, more aggressive offroad biased rubber, different suspension and adjustable sway bars, skid plates, upgraded transmission, etc. Or am I wrong.


RMTRADER
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 08:46
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RMTRADER wrote:
notyper wrote:
I understand the desire Honda might have to expand their SUV lineup. Like it or not that market is growing and having more diverse offerings to satisfy customers is important.

But beyond that, why pitch this thing as a more special "off-road capable" vehicle? The Pilot isn't particularly capable in the first place and I don't see this thing having dramatically improved off-road abilities. Never mind that no off-roader is going to want 50 series tires going on anything more than a groomed dirt road. Off-road means you need more sidewall, not less.

Having played with a 1st gen Ridgeline off-road and done some dyno work on the Baja Ridgeline, I know that Honda platforms can do ok off the beaten track. But pitching a mid-size, unibody, FWD based platform that's been shortened a bit, with the whole off-road putsch just seems silly.

This might be a really great vehicle. Might be more popular than the Pilot. But the way they've marketed it on launch makes no sense.

SC



I was under the belief that the Passport further differentiated itself from the Pilot with 2" of ground clearance additional, more aggressive offroad biased rubber, different suspension and adjustable sway bars, skid plates, upgraded transmission, etc. Or am I wrong.





Yup, I am wrong.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 09:21
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notyper wrote:
I understand the desire Honda might have to expand their SUV lineup. Like it or not that market is growing and having more diverse offerings to satisfy customers is important.

But beyond that, why pitch this thing as a more special "off-road capable" vehicle? The Pilot isn't particularly capable in the first place and I don't see this thing having dramatically improved off-road abilities. Never mind that no off-roader is going to want 50 series tires going on anything more than a groomed dirt road. Off-road means you need more sidewall, not less.

Having played with a 1st gen Ridgeline off-road and done some dyno work on the Baja Ridgeline, I know that Honda platforms can do ok off the beaten track. But pitching a mid-size, unibody, FWD based platform that's been shortened a bit, with the whole off-road putsch just seems silly.

This might be a really great vehicle. Might be more popular than the Pilot. But the way they've marketed it on launch makes no sense.

SC



When the warranty claims start to rise, Honda will then change the "marketing" message.

This is clearly aimed at the posers who want to give off the impression of the "Outdoor" gal or guy ( especially in Austin, Tx). Why else do we see so many clean four door Jeep Wranglers roaming the streets.

DCR
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 09:31
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No one is going off road in these things so that marketing is just dumb. If you want to snap your axles in half in your soccer mom SUV, go ahead, but I'm not sure you want to Uber to work on Monday.

CarPhreakD
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 09:34
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I was hoping for something that is closer in spirit to the Element, which is a Honda-esque outdoor vehicle that is cheap but loved by hikers and campers. At least they could have worked on upping the tow rating.

All I can think of is that maybe Honda called this a Passport because like the original, it was a rush to market. Or maybe they just saw an opportunity to basically add on Pilot production with minimal investment and went that route.

JPM52
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 10:52
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I was hoping for something that is closer in spirit to the Element, which is a Honda-esque outdoor vehicle that is cheap but loved by hikers and campers. At least they could have worked on upping the tow rating.

All I can think of is that maybe Honda called this a Passport because like the original, it was a rush to market. Or maybe they just saw an opportunity to basically add on Pilot production with minimal investment and went that route.


This part.


Fitdad
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 11:41
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Don't think this is that complicated - it's about the "look" of the truck and not the actual ability.

Honda is telling you who they think will buy this truck by having a Touring AND an Elite trim with the 20" wheels standard.

The Sport Trim is disappointing because it's the one trim that could have/should have had more of an actual "off-road" focus. Smaller wheels, even something like a vinyl floor instead of carpet. Pretty damn simple stuff actually.


Bro_Phoenix
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 12:39
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Agreed. Not complicated at all. To me, the Pilot is pretty damn close to a minivan in looks. I would never buy one as a result. However, this Passport is more appealing because of its more chunky, masculine look (save for the fugly rear end)... so I will consider this as a more,acceptable compromise between on road utility and the rare times I drive in the snow or on the dirt. Looks like a sales winner to me.
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 13:35
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Why does off-roading have to be interpreted in the most hardest of core sense?

If someone wants to go camping of fishing that requires climbing over a muddy hill, or you fill in the scenario, then something like this is far more practical than buying a Wrangler and dealing with all of its cons.

Of course no one in a Passport will be out with the Land Cruisers, FJs, Wrangers, and Discos.

CarPhreakD
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 14:04
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I don't think that anyone is expecting this to compete against a Wrangler (or upcoming Bronco). It's just that it's not really "outdoor specific". A reversible cargo floor being the highlight feature is pretty lame when you consider that the Honda Element offered a multi-configurable seating arrangement, and an essentially washable floor. That thing was great for hauling kayaks and tossing in muddy shoes. Not to mention placing the seats in a sleep config.

For actual offroading, they raised the vehicle but also decreased the wheelbase. I'm actually not sure what the approach and departure angles are for this thing as a result, if we're talking about going over muddy hills. It's certainly not any more towing capable than the base pilot either, for those with boats or trailers.

notyper
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 14:23
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Fitdad wrote:
Don't think this is that complicated - it's about the "look" of the truck and not the actual ability.

Honda is telling you who they think will buy this truck by having a Touring AND an Elite trim with the 20" wheels standard.

The Sport Trim is disappointing because it's the one trim that could have/should have had more of an actual "off-road" focus. Smaller wheels, even something like a vinyl floor instead of carpet. Pretty damn simple stuff actually.




Ahh, so it's the "Looks Fast" meme. Anyone remember how that worked out for Toyota with the Celica? Laughing stock much?

Only in this case it's more along the lines of "Looks Tough"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hXGhVbPD8g

SC

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 19:03
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I don't think that anyone is expecting this to compete against a Wrangler (or upcoming Bronco). It's just that it's not really "outdoor specific". A reversible cargo floor being the highlight feature is pretty lame when you consider that the Honda Element offered a multi-configurable seating arrangement, and an essentially washable floor. That thing was great for hauling kayaks and tossing in muddy shoes. Not to mention placing the seats in a sleep config.

For actual offroading, they raised the vehicle but also decreased the wheelbase. I'm actually not sure what the approach and departure angles are for this thing as a result, if we're talking about going over muddy hills. It's certainly not any more towing capable than the base pilot either, for those with boats or trailers.



Seems 5000 lbs is a much as Honda is pushing their cars these days. VW pushes the MLB over 7,000 lbs, but I imagine engine/transmission packaging helps there. The Jeep GC also has a V8 option that helps in those regards. While low, is there an apples to apples competitor that has a tow rating higher than 5,000 lbs?


If Honda could have given the Element treatment on a trim, I'd think it was a good idea. If it was for all Passports I think that would have made it too niche to be quite honest.

Fitdad
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 21:07
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notyper wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Don't think this is that complicated - it's about the "look" of the truck and not the actual ability.

Honda is telling you who they think will buy this truck by having a Touring AND an Elite trim with the 20" wheels standard.

The Sport Trim is disappointing because it's the one trim that could have/should have had more of an actual "off-road" focus. Smaller wheels, even something like a vinyl floor instead of carpet. Pretty damn simple stuff actually.




Ahh, so it's the "Looks Fast" meme. Anyone remember how that worked out for Toyota with the Celica? Laughing stock much?

Only in this case it's more along the lines of "Looks Tough"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hXGhVbPD8g

SC



I don’t think Looks Tough is quite right. But I just don’t know what the big deal is - marketing this towards wealthier people who like to camp and hike and kayak makes all the sense in the world given its capabilities and how they market the Pilot and CRV. So you end up with a lot of shots of it driving down dirt roads with bikes on top. Not that complicated.

The disappointment, as ever, is that Honda didn’t seem to put its full engineering force behind it and really make an off road vehicle. Hondatalover shopped a “Trail Sport”. I like that nomenclature. Sport, Trail Sport, Trail Sport Touring. Sign me up. And the Ridgeline too.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 08:58
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It looks like they are trying to appeal to the hiking/fishing/camping crowd. I don't see this as a rock crawling machine. My Ridgeline does great hauling my boat around. It's great for camping, too, but I'd rather have more covered storage that the Passport provides for camping. It'd certainly be a lot more comfortable driving than a Jeep or Toyota. The way the Ridgeline drives is what sold it over the Taco for me. I wish the Ridgeline had the Passport's front clip.
notyper
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 10:46
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Fitdad wrote:

I don’t think Looks Tough is quite right. But I just don’t know what the big deal is - marketing this towards wealthier people who like to camp and hike and kayak makes all the sense in the world given its capabilities and how they market the Pilot and CRV. So you end up with a lot of shots of it driving down dirt roads with bikes on top. Not that complicated.

The disappointment, as ever, is that Honda didn’t seem to put its full engineering force behind it and really make an off road vehicle. Hondatalover shopped a “Trail Sport”. I like that nomenclature. Sport, Trail Sport, Trail Sport Touring. Sign me up. And the Ridgeline too.



The issue is that when you market a product as something it is not you create dissonance in the minds of the customer base. You don't put 50 series tires on a vehicle and pitch it as emphasizing improved off-road capability.

The marketing department didn't have a clue how to pitch this vehicle so they stepped on their ***** big time.

SC

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 11:16
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notyper wrote:
Fitdad wrote:

I don’t think Looks Tough is quite right. But I just don’t know what the big deal is - marketing this towards wealthier people who like to camp and hike and kayak makes all the sense in the world given its capabilities and how they market the Pilot and CRV. So you end up with a lot of shots of it driving down dirt roads with bikes on top. Not that complicated.

The disappointment, as ever, is that Honda didn’t seem to put its full engineering force behind it and really make an off road vehicle. Hondatalover shopped a “Trail Sport”. I like that nomenclature. Sport, Trail Sport, Trail Sport Touring. Sign me up. And the Ridgeline too.



The issue is that when you market a product as something it is not you create dissonance in the minds of the customer base. You don't put 50 series tires on a vehicle and pitch it as emphasizing improved off-road capability.

The marketing department didn't have a clue how to pitch this vehicle so they stepped on their ***** big time.

SC



I guess we'll see how it sells - then we'll know whether or not they stepped on anything.

osu1978
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 11:28
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The Passport is going to sell like crazy. Honda needed to add a touch of aggressiveness to their light truck lineup and they did just that.

I expect the Ridgeline will get some of this treatment soon. I know its been floated by Japan.

CarPhreakD
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 11:57
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NSXman wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I don't think that anyone is expecting this to compete against a Wrangler (or upcoming Bronco). It's just that it's not really "outdoor specific". A reversible cargo floor being the highlight feature is pretty lame when you consider that the Honda Element offered a multi-configurable seating arrangement, and an essentially washable floor. That thing was great for hauling kayaks and tossing in muddy shoes. Not to mention placing the seats in a sleep config.

For actual offroading, they raised the vehicle but also decreased the wheelbase. I'm actually not sure what the approach and departure angles are for this thing as a result, if we're talking about going over muddy hills. It's certainly not any more towing capable than the base pilot either, for those with boats or trailers.



Seems 5000 lbs is a much as Honda is pushing their cars these days. VW pushes the MLB over 7,000 lbs, but I imagine engine/transmission packaging helps there. The Jeep GC also has a V8 option that helps in those regards. While low, is there an apples to apples competitor that has a tow rating higher than 5,000 lbs?


If Honda could have given the Element treatment on a trim, I'd think it was a good idea. If it was for all Passports I think that would have made it too niche to be quite honest.



Truthfully, not a lot. A V6 Cherokee with the towing package is something like 4,500 lbs; I'm not really sure if that's a comparable competitor though.

Dren wrote:
It looks like they are trying to appeal to the hiking/fishing/camping crowd. I don't see this as a rock crawling machine.


I don't see this as appealing to the hiking/fishing/camping crowd either. There's a reason you still see a million Honda Elements in Cali, for one thing. If I were in the market for a SUV for hiking and camping, I'd probably be buying a Cherokee, Outback or Forester (depending on if I need towing, car camping, or backpacking).

Sib
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 12:08
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I was waiting for such vehicle from Honda for a long time. My aging Accord ( 2007 V6 SE) needs replacement and because of my specific situation AWD is required. I was planning to go to the dealership on the week of Thanksgiving and already got car loan approved. I'm glad the news about Passport came earlier.
Wife drives 2015 CR-V and it's too small for us when we get on a trip. I guess we carry too much stuff :). However, with one kid, I do not want to haul a third row around. I'd rather have more room in a back.
Like always in life, there is no ideal, everything is compromise. For me, Passport EX-L gets pretty close to ideal. My only big gripe is /50-R20 wheels. I agree with everyone who already said that it is not smart to position vehicle as advanced off road worthy and put such low profile tires on it. Honda might revisit this decision at some point later. However, for myself, I doubt I will be waiting for it. The solution is simple: replace them.
According to the Tire Size Calculator (https://tiresize.com/tyre-size-calculator/) when you do Tyre Comparison for 245/50-R20 and 245/60-R18, they come out as pretty much identical (with one revolution per mile difference) and not affecting speedometer.
So, a set of Honda 18" Diamond Cut Alloy Wheel (Pilot, Ridgeline) at ~$270-280 a piece and a set of Michelin Defender LTX at ~$200 a piece will fit the bill. So, it is total of ~$2000 minus whatever I can recover for original wheels/tires.

notyper
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-29-2018 13:18
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Fitdad wrote:

I guess we'll see how it sells - then we'll know whether or not they stepped on anything.



Non-sequitur

They've already stepped on their junk pitching a low profile tired FWD based vehicle as on off-roader, replete with pr shots of it carving rooster tails in soft dirt/sand.

That it might be a better option than the Pilot for a big part of the consumer base does not preclude that (in fact I think I already wrote something along these lines). In fact, it will only convince the marketing wizards inside Honda corporate that they actually know what they're doing.

They had so many other ways to pitch this thing. They could've talked about it being a goldilocks vehicle for today's small families. A more nimble, capable SUV for the active couple. There are dozens more possibilities. You can put a little sidebar in about how its _more_ off-road capable than the Pilot (if it really is), but to make it a primary part of the pitch is ill-advised.

SC

ding
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-01-2018 06:51
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It does't matter it will sell. The Accord use to the car Honda could bank on. It kept the lights on at Honda. Everybody wants wants a jacked up off roadish car. I predict the sedan will make a comeback in the future!
HONDA AFVM
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-01-2018 09:02
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I think a little different on this one guys. The Outback is no more of an offroader then this and they market that the same way.

Can it climb rocks, no. But it can go down camping trails, back wooded trails and some lite to mild hills. Most people in this day and age aren't going to go HOG MUDDING in it but it's OK for some beach driving, trailing and fun offroad times......

Just saying......

notyper
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-01-2018 14:37
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
I think a little different on this one guys. The Outback is no more of an offroader then this and they market that the same way.

Can it climb rocks, no. But it can go down camping trails, back wooded trails and some lite to mild hills. Most people in this day and age aren't going to go HOG MUDDING in it but it's OK for some beach driving, trailing and fun offroad times......

Just saying......



Subaru is trading on past glory when it comes to the outback. The old Foresters and Outbacks (the former especially) were very capable. But since they went to the CVT transmissions they are much more just soft roaders.

Much like how BMW's ultimate driving machine schtick has lost its relevance with many new BMWs, the whole off-road capable Subaru marketing no longer resonates like it used to. It'll take time for it to hurt them (I figure it takes 8-10 years for perception to catch up with reality in those situations), so figure if they don't return to their roots Subaru will start getting hurt by the dichotomy in 2023-2024.

SC

TheDiscriminator
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2018 02:35
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Just because it can’t perform like an ATV, it means it can’t do off-road?! Some comments here are so moronic.

Although the look is meh and the taillights are horrible, this is a winner for Honda and will capture an interresting segment of the SUV market. Its off-road capabilities are better than 90% of all SUV out there and will be more than enough for the vast majority of people’s off-road needs. No potential buyers will do Paris-Dakar, duh!

TheDiscriminator
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2018 03:26
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Watch this “Top 5 Off-Roady Worthy Crossovers”

https://youtu.be/Pso3Comik0Q

And guess which is #1?

Most owners won’t even do that serious off-road driving. So some people here should stop getting their get panties in a bunch prematurely when you don’t know shit.


notyper
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2018 14:37
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TheDiscriminator wrote:
Watch this “Top 5 Off-Roady Worthy Crossovers”

https://youtu.be/Pso3Comik0Q

And guess which is #1?

Most owners won’t even do that serious off-road driving. So some people here should stop getting their get panties in a bunch prematurely when you don’t know shit.




Careful son, my holiday cheer hasn't kicked in yet and my hammer is a little rusty. None of these vehicles are good off-roaders and trying to sell them as such is poor marketing. Go beat them up like in the PR material and you'll break stuff right quick.

SC

None
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2018 16:42
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TheDiscriminator wrote:
Watch this “Top 5 Off-Roady Worthy Crossovers”

https://youtu.be/Pso3Comik0Q

And guess which is #1?

Most owners won’t even do that serious off-road driving. So some people here should stop getting their get panties in a bunch prematurely when you don’t know shit.




Imagine some good offroad tires on the Passport.

Fishbulb
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2018 19:16
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notyper wrote:

Careful son, my holiday cheer hasn't kicked in yet and my hammer is a little rusty. None of these vehicles are good off-roaders and trying to sell them as such is poor marketing.

SC


I think you need to grow a thicker skin.

Also, your opinion about it being poor marketing is just that - an opinion, not fact. It is not a non-sequitor to suggest waiting for sales information as part of that discussion.

DCR
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Re: So confusing.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2018 01:12
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Fishbulb wrote:
I think you need to grow a thicker skin.

Also, your opinion about it being poor marketing is just that - an opinion, not fact. It is not a non-sequitor to suggest waiting for sales information as part of that discussion.


That is one way to shake the rust off.


 
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