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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"

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outersquare
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"2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 03:29
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Not everyone's favorite website, but interesting article. Basically they're saying X5 engine, 5 series derived suspension, X3/X4 steering/HVAC, 2 series seats even. It's almost ridiculous.



https://jalopnik.com/the-2019-toyota-supra-is-a-bmw-parts-bin-car-1829563030
https://jalopnik.com/2019-toyota-supra-pretty-much-the-whole-car-from-some-1829595430



superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 03:39
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I guess Toyota wanted to just go along for the ride on this one.
superchg2
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Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 03:45
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After seeing all the parts that are shared, I'm afraid that the Supra will also have the reliability idiosyncrasies of the Beemers,
just about the time the warranty ends.
:)

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 02:43
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I guess all I can say at this point, is that what I have read so far was positive, and at least they are actually developing an affordable sports car, even if meant sharing parts bins with BMW.

I can definitely see some issues/concerns with owners as the cars get down the road a few years, but honestly, BMW's aren't fundamentally junk, they just don't put a lot of durability where Toyota would.

Grady
Profile for Grady
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 09:29
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owequitit wrote:
I guess all I can say at this point, is that what I have read so far was positive, and at least they are actually developing an affordable sports car, even if meant sharing parts bins with BMW.

I can definitely see some issues/concerns with owners as the cars get down the road a few years, but honestly, BMW's aren't fundamentally junk, they just don't put a lot of durability where Toyota would.



The engines from German manufacturers are generally pretty reliable. It's all their electric, plastic, and rubber components that just either fall apart or stop working.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 09:53
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Seeing as almost everything outside of the block and heads is plastic nowadays, that still constitutes a fair chunk of the engine. Does it count as reliable if you only have the multi-stage oil pump working half the time?

I would like to see what constitutes affordability in this day and age, for a "mid-range sports car". If we assume the baseline price of the S2000 as a midrange affordable sports car from back in the day, the $32K it cost to buy the car in 2001 would translate into $45K in today's dollars. That seems like a reasonable target in light of the Mustang GT PP2's pricing. Still far above the average vehicle transaction price of $34K in this day and age (and that number crept up due to huge inflation in pickup truck pricing).

But I'm expecting the Supra to be more like $50K range, otherwise I don't know how BMW intends to sell any Z4s when Joe-Blo can walk into a Toyota dealership instead, haggle, and then actually be able to buy parts at a reasonable cost when the warranty is up.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 11:49
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Grady wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I guess all I can say at this point, is that what I have read so far was positive, and at least they are actually developing an affordable sports car, even if meant sharing parts bins with BMW.

I can definitely see some issues/concerns with owners as the cars get down the road a few years, but honestly, BMW's aren't fundamentally junk, they just don't put a lot of durability where Toyota would.



The engines from German manufacturers are generally pretty reliable. It's all their electric, plastic, and rubber components that just either fall apart or stop working.


BMW, VW, and Audi various engines have had many different issues over the years.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2018 01:18
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lexusgs wrote:
Grady wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I guess all I can say at this point, is that what I have read so far was positive, and at least they are actually developing an affordable sports car, even if meant sharing parts bins with BMW.

I can definitely see some issues/concerns with owners as the cars get down the road a few years, but honestly, BMW's aren't fundamentally junk, they just don't put a lot of durability where Toyota would.



The engines from German manufacturers are generally pretty reliable. It's all their electric, plastic, and rubber components that just either fall apart or stop working.


BMW, VW, and Audi various engines have had many different issues over the years.



Their engines are fundamentally stout. It is the all of the ancillaries that have issues, which I have been vocal about. That said, at least it is a "plannable" cost, if you choose to accept it. I have plenty of BMW friends though, so thanks.

Also, Toyota and Honda have had no shortage of engine issues in the past couple decades as well, so there is that.

Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 03:22
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At this juncture, any criticism of either car -- BMW's Z4 or Toyota's Supra -- is just sour grapes from the coulda, woulda shoulda guys.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 05:44
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Mechanic wrote:
At this juncture, any criticism of either car -- BMW's Z4 or Toyota's Supra -- is just sour grapes from the coulda, woulda shoulda guys.

Good Point. Since Toyota's reputation for reliability is on the line just like Honda's, they probably have made strategic component substitutions to insure that these Supra's aren't going to end up on the back service rack, with the old school Toyota Techs. scratching their heads trying to figure out how to deal with a broke down BMW/Supra.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 07:43
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You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.
superchg2
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Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 08:49
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rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)

Grady
Profile for Grady
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 08:57
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rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.


I've sworn off German platforms having seen and tried to keep running German work vans. Engines are great they'll keep chugging along even at 250xxx mile mark but by then you will have replaced every little piece of electrics that's attached to it.

We've recently switched to Dodge and Ford work vans. It's a night and day difference on running costs.

It's relieving that when you send in a work van for service and you wont receive a minimum thousand dollar bill.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 09:29
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Grady wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.


I've sworn off German platforms having seen and tried to keep running German work vans. Engines are great they'll keep chugging along even at 250xxx mile mark but by then you will have replaced every little piece of electrics that's attached to it.

We've recently switched to Dodge and Ford work vans. It's a night and day difference on running costs.

It's relieving that when you send in a work van for service and you wont receive a minimum thousand dollar bill.


Year's ago, the Mercedes sedans had big problems with their wiring harnesses failing. German plastic maybe?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 09:49
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superchg2 wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
At this juncture, any criticism of either car -- BMW's Z4 or Toyota's Supra -- is just sour grapes from the coulda, woulda shoulda guys.

Good Point. Since Toyota's reputation for reliability is on the line just like Honda's, they probably have made strategic component substitutions to insure that these Supra's aren't going to end up on the back service rack, with the old school Toyota Techs. scratching their heads trying to figure out how to deal with a broke down BMW/Supra.



I mean, I don't think there's a lot of "criticism" so much as there is analysis, speculation and indifference. Not a lot of people here has stated their excitement for the actual vehicle itself, but its genesis as a product of two ideologically different companies is interesting.

The article from Bozi mentioned that the Supra does in fact crib a lot of parts from various BMWs (which is kind of 'fun' in the rat-rod sense), but there are some unique components- kind of interesting is the usage of a unique oil pump.

I also don't think it's so much "German Plastic" that is to blame. Many of them do source their plastic from the Japanese (polyamides from US and Japan), and some of them are even capable of making plastic components that are light weight and don't leak (the various cylinder head covers from Dana Europe, Mahle et al. with complex structures and "gas injected" manufacturing method to reduce weight).

I think the problem is more of inappropriate design and wrong plastic selection. BMW is more willing to experiment with new ideas and put them into production but they don't ever seem to put the time and effort into vetting individual parts for durability.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 10:25
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superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 10:43
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rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)


Probably not

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 10:57
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superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)


Probably not


Probably not...to which of the above? The BMW owners driving older models, or that there's a bit of exaggeration going on as far as reliability goes?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 11:11
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I think that's more of a case of owners of E46s tend to hold onto them because they're the last really good 'enthusiast' era BMWs available. Those cars are also much simpler.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 11:43
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think that's more of a case of owners of E46s tend to hold onto them because they're the last really good 'enthusiast' era BMWs available. Those cars are also much simpler.


I do indeed see a lot of those.
Beyond the enthusiast realm I also notice quite a few older X5's and X3's.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 13:36
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The E36 European M3 with 320Hp is a even sweeter ride than the E46. More feel, more analog, and less weight. American however, only got 240 horses.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 16:47
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Seeing as almost everything outside of the block and heads is plastic nowadays, that still constitutes a fair chunk of the engine. Does it count as reliable if you only have the multi-stage oil pump working half the time?

I would like to see what constitutes affordability in this day and age, for a "mid-range sports car". If we assume the baseline price of the S2000 as a midrange affordable sports car from back in the day, the $32K it cost to buy the car in 2001 would translate into $45K in today's dollars. That seems like a reasonable target in light of the Mustang GT PP2's pricing. Still far above the average vehicle transaction price of $34K in this day and age (and that number crept up due to huge inflation in pickup truck pricing).

But I'm expecting the Supra to be more like $50K range, otherwise I don't know how BMW intends to sell any Z4s when Joe-Blo can walk into a Toyota dealership instead, haggle, and then actually be able to buy parts at a reasonable cost when the warranty is up.


Well Toyota themselves said the car will not be cheap, I would guess this car topped out will be easily in the mid 60k range maybe even higher. With the rumored HP numbers, I wouldn't consider that affordable but considering the small niche there are only a handful at that price range. I also have no respect for Toyota in this case as they leveraging their fat pockets to bring back an icon whereas Honda chooses to go alone on sports cars even it if means sadly cancelling products.
I will say personally I do not look at reliability as the only factor or an excuse to stay with Honda products any longer because they are not exempt from reliability issues either. If I'm getting a superior product that puts a smile on my face, I will deal with the issues when the time comes and I will accept that when making the decision to change.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 23:53
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rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)



A lot of it is pretty exaggerated IMO. They definitely like their maintenance, but so do all cars eventually.

The E36 and the E46 were the last of the "simple" BMW's IMO, but even in their time they were considered vastly complex with CANBUS, etc. Really though, they just have their areas of weakness and attention, just like any other car.

The E36 and E46 specifically have a lot of little gremlins that aren't exceptionally expensive or difficult to fix, they are just common problems. Early VANOS units were problematic, but later ones were not. The engines themselves are bulletproof, but some of the components on NEWER BMW's are not. For instance, my friends Valvetronic E92 328i Sport was not unreliable at all up to about 150K miles. In fact, other than the rebuild on the cooling system, I don't think he had too many major repairs on the car, if any.

The biggest difference I have found with ze Germans is that they put technical achievement ahead of low ownership costs. For instance, BMW specifically uses front struts, but then they align the cars aggressively and prioritize suspension bushings etc to last less time, but handle better. This results in additional costs, increases tire and bushing wear, but gives a big part of the handling characteristics they are known for. Porsche does a lot of the same. It is also why the argument that "BMW uses struts so Acura can too" largely falls on its face. First, the Acura is much more nose heavy to begin with and second, Acura's durability metrics would probably never allow them to spec suspension components that only last 50-70K miles before they are toast. Likewise, they also apply the brakes to control speeds when on cruise control, so they tend to eat the rear brake pads as a result of this feature (which works really nicely).

*His 328is was a 2007 model, which was supposed to be one of the more problematic ones, so I don't think the rest of them count as "junk" if his was able to pretty comfortably go to 150K with no major issues. He has an F30 328is now and it has also been largely trouble free, though it is only at about 50-60K miles.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 18:43
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owequitit wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)



A lot of it is pretty exaggerated IMO. They definitely like their maintenance, but so do all cars eventually.

The E36 and the E46 were the last of the "simple" BMW's IMO, but even in their time they were considered vastly complex with CANBUS, etc. Really though, they just have their areas of weakness and attention, just like any other car.

The E36 and E46 specifically have a lot of little gremlins that aren't exceptionally expensive or difficult to fix, they are just common problems. Early VANOS units were problematic, but later ones were not. The engines themselves are bulletproof, but some of the components on NEWER BMW's are not. For instance, my friends Valvetronic E92 328i Sport was not unreliable at all up to about 150K miles. In fact, other than the rebuild on the cooling system, I don't think he had too many major repairs on the car, if any.

The biggest difference I have found with ze Germans is that they put technical achievement ahead of low ownership costs. For instance, BMW specifically uses front struts, but then they align the cars aggressively and prioritize suspension bushings etc to last less time, but handle better. This results in additional costs, increases tire and bushing wear, but gives a big part of the handling characteristics they are known for. Porsche does a lot of the same. It is also why the argument that "BMW uses struts so Acura can too" largely falls on its face. First, the Acura is much more nose heavy to begin with and second, Acura's durability metrics would probably never allow them to spec suspension components that only last 50-70K miles before they are toast. Likewise, they also apply the brakes to control speeds when on cruise control, so they tend to eat the rear brake pads as a result of this feature (which works really nicely).

*His 328is was a 2007 model, which was supposed to be one of the more problematic ones, so I don't think the rest of them count as "junk" if his was able to pretty comfortably go to 150K with no major issues. He has an F30 328is now and it has also been largely trouble free, though it is only at about 50-60K miles.


Interesting info and insight, owe. Thank you for that.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2018 03:16
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rev2damoon wrote:
owequitit wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)



A lot of it is pretty exaggerated IMO. They definitely like their maintenance, but so do all cars eventually.

The E36 and the E46 were the last of the "simple" BMW's IMO, but even in their time they were considered vastly complex with CANBUS, etc. Really though, they just have their areas of weakness and attention, just like any other car.

The E36 and E46 specifically have a lot of little gremlins that aren't exceptionally expensive or difficult to fix, they are just common problems. Early VANOS units were problematic, but later ones were not. The engines themselves are bulletproof, but some of the components on NEWER BMW's are not. For instance, my friends Valvetronic E92 328i Sport was not unreliable at all up to about 150K miles. In fact, other than the rebuild on the cooling system, I don't think he had too many major repairs on the car, if any.

The biggest difference I have found with ze Germans is that they put technical achievement ahead of low ownership costs. For instance, BMW specifically uses front struts, but then they align the cars aggressively and prioritize suspension bushings etc to last less time, but handle better. This results in additional costs, increases tire and bushing wear, but gives a big part of the handling characteristics they are known for. Porsche does a lot of the same. It is also why the argument that "BMW uses struts so Acura can too" largely falls on its face. First, the Acura is much more nose heavy to begin with and second, Acura's durability metrics would probably never allow them to spec suspension components that only last 50-70K miles before they are toast. Likewise, they also apply the brakes to control speeds when on cruise control, so they tend to eat the rear brake pads as a result of this feature (which works really nicely).

*His 328is was a 2007 model, which was supposed to be one of the more problematic ones, so I don't think the rest of them count as "junk" if his was able to pretty comfortably go to 150K with no major issues. He has an F30 328is now and it has also been largely trouble free, though it is only at about 50-60K miles.


Interesting info and insight, owe. Thank you for that.



Honestly, if people want ownership experiences of BMW's then the place to go would be the Bimmer forums. If you listen to the drivel around here, every car but a Honda literally falls apart going down the road as you drive it away from the lot.

Honda's aren't that easy and cheap to maintain anymore either and that is without considering the DI turbo stuff.

Here is an example. Most of the V6 cars have active engine mounts, extremely complex valvetrain systems, very highly integrated and complex CANBUS electronic suites (if I go into the diag menus on my 2013 V6, I can see what pretty much any sensor or system on the car is doing at that moment). They have big, low profile tires, power everything, dual mass flywheels, etc. They have also tended to have very expensive brake repair costs (owing to the shitty pads and small rotors causing shimmies), and their "regular" maintenance costs are high in some cases.

Consider that a timing belt job on a Honda V6 is about $1200 and has to happen somewhere between 60K and 105K depending on conditions. The clutch on my car? I have been quoted about $2200 in some cases. A new flywheel alone (if it isn't machinable) is almost $800 wholesale from hondaautomotiveparts.com.

We have had a littany of issues with all of the last 5 or so Hondas we have owned.

My 2009 Si had a misaligned door panel from the factory that resulted in the paint being rubbed off the front edge of the door, because it just randomly made contact with the fender. I had to have the head unit replaced right after I got it because the orange digital display was peeling and ruining the screen and ability of the LCD to display digits. I had it in the dealership 3 times to try and fix the notorious window rattling. I went through 3 sets of sunvisors in 80K miles because they kept splitting in half. Then there was the serpentine tensioner that was going bad starting at 80K, and of course, all of the Takata airbags.

Our 2006 Accord had some random electrical problem where the interior dash lights would flicker from "night mode" to "day mode" for a fraction of second and then go back. It was spurious and never got fixed because the dealer couldn't find the cause of it. Talk about annoying when driving on a dark back road at night (not to mention dangerous). That car was also loaded with Takata airbags that would have had to be replaced. We had a 2004 and a 2006 and thankfully dodged the transmission issues on both (Honda was still litigating it at that time, so not only did they NOT cover it, they were still trying to deny it).

Our 2009 Accord not only got DISMAL gas mileage (talking low to mid 20's on the highway being a chore), but the VCM was causing noticeable NVH issues by the time we got rid of it. It had numerous squeaks and rattles almost from day one, had to have the brake shimmy fixed 2 times in ~70K miles (machined rotors and new pads once, and new rotors and pads the second time) as well as having the front suspension bushings replaced at about 32K because they were splitting.

The 2013 Accord sedan has had new brakes twice in 70K miles and just had the starter replaced.

The 2013 6MT coupe has only had the problem with the airbag sensor that I know of (I bought it used, so can't speak to its history before me).

Both were recalled because of the failed battery tender relay or whatever they call it (the relay that disconnects the battery if it gets low). No word on airbags yet.

Most of the issues were covered under warranty and weren't a big deal. However, if a BMW had ANY of these issues, people would be parading around this board talking about what giant piles of doo they are. I can honestly say that I no longer buy a Honda and expect a completely trouble free experience either.

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2018 16:15
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Mikeydred wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Seeing as almost everything outside of the block and heads is plastic nowadays, that still constitutes a fair chunk of the engine. Does it count as reliable if you only have the multi-stage oil pump working half the time?

I would like to see what constitutes affordability in this day and age, for a "mid-range sports car". If we assume the baseline price of the S2000 as a midrange affordable sports car from back in the day, the $32K it cost to buy the car in 2001 would translate into $45K in today's dollars. That seems like a reasonable target in light of the Mustang GT PP2's pricing. Still far above the average vehicle transaction price of $34K in this day and age (and that number crept up due to huge inflation in pickup truck pricing).

But I'm expecting the Supra to be more like $50K range, otherwise I don't know how BMW intends to sell any Z4s when Joe-Blo can walk into a Toyota dealership instead, haggle, and then actually be able to buy parts at a reasonable cost when the warranty is up.


Well Toyota themselves said the car will not be cheap, I would guess this car topped out will be easily in the mid 60k range maybe even higher. With the rumored HP numbers, I wouldn't consider that affordable but considering the small niche there are only a handful at that price range. I also have no respect for Toyota in this case as they leveraging their fat pockets to bring back an icon whereas Honda chooses to go alone on sports cars even it if means sadly cancelling products.
I will say personally I do not look at reliability as the only factor or an excuse to stay with Honda products any longer because they are not exempt from reliability issues either. If I'm getting a superior product that puts a smile on my face, I will deal with the issues when the time comes and I will accept that when making the decision to change.



I'm all for the NSX, but Honda did not try to bring a $60k sports car to market in today's high cost to design environment. Frankly I'm not even sure how they brought the S2000 to market 20 years ago with such little room to share costs.

And let's also not forget that Lexus did bring the LC to market, which for the average buyer of means, that GT would be a fairly sweet car for either a DD or a 2nd car that gets fairly high usage. Even the IS-F with any and all of its warts was more performance than Honda has EVER built, save the NSX.

I just don't think going after Toyota on performance and sports cars is a smart move for Honda fans. Over the past 30-40 years, Toyota has nearly always had one performance model in North America at a given time.

Regarding the Supra, Toyota had quite a lot of input into this project as evidenced by the fact Toyota and BMW engineers parted ways years ago and designed their own cars.

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2018 20:07
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owequitit wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
owequitit wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
You'd think that every BMW driven off the lot suffers immediate, catastrophic engine failure and falls apart like Michael Keaton's brand new car in 'Gung Ho'.

Only after the warranty has lapsed.
:)


lol...You know it's interesting to me because I notice so many older model BMW's on the street still going. I have to wonder if these folks are just putting up with the constant engine troubles and what-not. I'm not saying BMW as a whole is reliable as say Lexus, but are we exaggerating a bit? That's what I wonder.:-)



A lot of it is pretty exaggerated IMO. They definitely like their maintenance, but so do all cars eventually.

The E36 and the E46 were the last of the "simple" BMW's IMO, but even in their time they were considered vastly complex with CANBUS, etc. Really though, they just have their areas of weakness and attention, just like any other car.

The E36 and E46 specifically have a lot of little gremlins that aren't exceptionally expensive or difficult to fix, they are just common problems. Early VANOS units were problematic, but later ones were not. The engines themselves are bulletproof, but some of the components on NEWER BMW's are not. For instance, my friends Valvetronic E92 328i Sport was not unreliable at all up to about 150K miles. In fact, other than the rebuild on the cooling system, I don't think he had too many major repairs on the car, if any.

The biggest difference I have found with ze Germans is that they put technical achievement ahead of low ownership costs. For instance, BMW specifically uses front struts, but then they align the cars aggressively and prioritize suspension bushings etc to last less time, but handle better. This results in additional costs, increases tire and bushing wear, but gives a big part of the handling characteristics they are known for. Porsche does a lot of the same. It is also why the argument that "BMW uses struts so Acura can too" largely falls on its face. First, the Acura is much more nose heavy to begin with and second, Acura's durability metrics would probably never allow them to spec suspension components that only last 50-70K miles before they are toast. Likewise, they also apply the brakes to control speeds when on cruise control, so they tend to eat the rear brake pads as a result of this feature (which works really nicely).

*His 328is was a 2007 model, which was supposed to be one of the more problematic ones, so I don't think the rest of them count as "junk" if his was able to pretty comfortably go to 150K with no major issues. He has an F30 328is now and it has also been largely trouble free, though it is only at about 50-60K miles.


Interesting info and insight, owe. Thank you for that.



Honestly, if people want ownership experiences of BMW's then the place to go would be the Bimmer forums. If you listen to the drivel around here, every car but a Honda literally falls apart going down the road as you drive it away from the lot.

Honda's aren't that easy and cheap to maintain anymore either and that is without considering the DI turbo stuff.

Here is an example. Most of the V6 cars have active engine mounts, extremely complex valvetrain systems, very highly integrated and complex CANBUS electronic suites (if I go into the diag menus on my 2013 V6, I can see what pretty much any sensor or system on the car is doing at that moment). They have big, low profile tires, power everything, dual mass flywheels, etc. They have also tended to have very expensive brake repair costs (owing to the shitty pads and small rotors causing shimmies), and their "regular" maintenance costs are high in some cases.

Consider that a timing belt job on a Honda V6 is about $1200 and has to happen somewhere between 60K and 105K depending on conditions. The clutch on my car? I have been quoted about $2200 in some cases. A new flywheel alone (if it isn't machinable) is almost $800 wholesale from hondaautomotiveparts.com.

We have had a littany of issues with all of the last 5 or so Hondas we have owned.

My 2009 Si had a misaligned door panel from the factory that resulted in the paint being rubbed off the front edge of the door, because it just randomly made contact with the fender. I had to have the head unit replaced right after I got it because the orange digital display was peeling and ruining the screen and ability of the LCD to display digits. I had it in the dealership 3 times to try and fix the notorious window rattling. I went through 3 sets of sunvisors in 80K miles because they kept splitting in half. Then there was the serpentine tensioner that was going bad starting at 80K, and of course, all of the Takata airbags.

Our 2006 Accord had some random electrical problem where the interior dash lights would flicker from "night mode" to "day mode" for a fraction of second and then go back. It was spurious and never got fixed because the dealer couldn't find the cause of it. Talk about annoying when driving on a dark back road at night (not to mention dangerous). That car was also loaded with Takata airbags that would have had to be replaced. We had a 2004 and a 2006 and thankfully dodged the transmission issues on both (Honda was still litigating it at that time, so not only did they NOT cover it, they were still trying to deny it).

Our 2009 Accord not only got DISMAL gas mileage (talking low to mid 20's on the highway being a chore), but the VCM was causing noticeable NVH issues by the time we got rid of it. It had numerous squeaks and rattles almost from day one, had to have the brake shimmy fixed 2 times in ~70K miles (machined rotors and new pads once, and new rotors and pads the second time) as well as having the front suspension bushings replaced at about 32K because they were splitting.

The 2013 Accord sedan has had new brakes twice in 70K miles and just had the starter replaced.

The 2013 6MT coupe has only had the problem with the airbag sensor that I know of (I bought it used, so can't speak to its history before me).

Both were recalled because of the failed battery tender relay or whatever they call it (the relay that disconnects the battery if it gets low). No word on airbags yet.

Most of the issues were covered under warranty and weren't a big deal. However, if a BMW had ANY of these issues, people would be parading around this board talking about what giant piles of doo they are. I can honestly say that I no longer buy a Honda and expect a completely trouble free experience either.


Shit our MDX breaks started squesking like a train approaching a station at about 6k miles, dealer confirmed that it wasnt normal replaced pads and resurfaced rotors and guess what squeaking again. My TL has had various electronic inconvenience since purchase, while nothing major still an inconvenience. One only has to look no further than yearly reliability ratings to see Honda and Acura are not without their own problems no matter how the problem is defined. Historically though, a German car will cost you more to maintain but doesn't mean their all lemons.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 12:54
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I think you may be going hyperbolic in the other direction, Owe. Nobody says that Hondas are perfect and trouble-free, but I have to assume you're not suggesting that BMWs are less troublesome than the relatively simple Hondas on the market. I don't think that the assertion can be supported in any way, either anecdotally or by any studies.

I consider multiplexing CAN systems to be a major plus, as far as diagnostics go. True, it's not like 1960's "put in 6 wires and you're good to go" level electrical simplicity, but it's much easier to diagnose and not much more complicated since most sensors are still 2-3 wires and easy to trace with a DMM.

The splitting 8th gen Civic visor thing is definitely a pain in the ass, and the weirdest and most egregious thing about it is that Honda never implemented a fix. I don't know what's up with that since it's such a big issue that they basically made a TSB offering free replacements to everyone. But, it's also a trivial repair, for example you can buy a clip on Fleabay that permanently fixes it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Easy-DIY-Fix-for-Sagging-Drooping-Honda-Civic-Sun-Visor-83230-SNA-A01-Z/173448548935

My 2006 Si is at 260K miles. I am actually on the original cam chain tensioner, wheel bearings, serpentine belt, etc. and the only things I've had to replace are dampers. Actually that's not true- I also went through 2 clutches, and both of them failed because the spring carrier broke and not because the clutch faces wore down (I think this might actually be a design flaw).

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 12:57
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NSXman wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Seeing as almost everything outside of the block and heads is plastic nowadays, that still constitutes a fair chunk of the engine. Does it count as reliable if you only have the multi-stage oil pump working half the time?

I would like to see what constitutes affordability in this day and age, for a "mid-range sports car". If we assume the baseline price of the S2000 as a midrange affordable sports car from back in the day, the $32K it cost to buy the car in 2001 would translate into $45K in today's dollars. That seems like a reasonable target in light of the Mustang GT PP2's pricing. Still far above the average vehicle transaction price of $34K in this day and age (and that number crept up due to huge inflation in pickup truck pricing).

But I'm expecting the Supra to be more like $50K range, otherwise I don't know how BMW intends to sell any Z4s when Joe-Blo can walk into a Toyota dealership instead, haggle, and then actually be able to buy parts at a reasonable cost when the warranty is up.


Well Toyota themselves said the car will not be cheap, I would guess this car topped out will be easily in the mid 60k range maybe even higher. With the rumored HP numbers, I wouldn't consider that affordable but considering the small niche there are only a handful at that price range. I also have no respect for Toyota in this case as they leveraging their fat pockets to bring back an icon whereas Honda chooses to go alone on sports cars even it if means sadly cancelling products.
I will say personally I do not look at reliability as the only factor or an excuse to stay with Honda products any longer because they are not exempt from reliability issues either. If I'm getting a superior product that puts a smile on my face, I will deal with the issues when the time comes and I will accept that when making the decision to change.



I'm all for the NSX, but Honda did not try to bring a $60k sports car to market in today's high cost to design environment. Frankly I'm not even sure how they brought the S2000 to market 20 years ago with such little room to share costs.

And let's also not forget that Lexus did bring the LC to market, which for the average buyer of means, that GT would be a fairly sweet car for either a DD or a 2nd car that gets fairly high usage. Even the IS-F with any and all of its warts was more performance than Honda has EVER built, save the NSX.

I just don't think going after Toyota on performance and sports cars is a smart move for Honda fans. Over the past 30-40 years, Toyota has nearly always had one performance model in North America at a given time.

Regarding the Supra, Toyota had quite a lot of input into this project as evidenced by the fact Toyota and BMW engineers parted ways years ago and designed their own cars.



Yes, Toyota had "input" on this project but at the end of the day, it's built by BMW out of BMW engineered components. I don't think Toyota even did most of the integration engineering on it.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 13:40
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Guys over on SupraMKV forum are discussing outfitting new Supra with the 2JZ-GTE powerplant. May run into some problems getting the electronics to talk to each other and meet emission requirements. Last I checked several years ago, GTE long blocks were still being sold. Yes, that's the one able to withstand 1000Hp.

As for the production vehicle, look for the unveil to occur in Detroit Auto show in January. Not much more to show but look for the straight 6 to pump out close to 384 Hp (from Z4) or slightly less to meet Toyota durability requirements. Speculation is that a manual trans may now be on the table. If there is demand, they can bring it. Yea, it has BMW hardware with Toyota sheet metal, but it is better than nothing. With today's development cost and low sales volume, at least we have a choice compared to no Supra at all.

I still want to see a toned down light weight NSX with the upcoming 3.0L TTV6 with E-supercharger minus the AWD hardware. It can be a lower cost / lower performance alternative at less than $100K and open up to a larger market to keep the production line running.



 
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