[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
NSX GT3 Evo To Compete Globally in 2019
More.......................
2019 Acura ILX Arrives with Dynamic New Styling, Major Technology Upgrades and New A-Spec Treatment
More.......................
Honda Joins with Cruise and General Motors to Build New Autonomous Vehicle
More.......................
Honda reports September 2018 sales numbers
More.......................
Honda recalling 232,000 2018 Accords and 2019 Insights for rear camera software update
More.......................
2019 Accord arriving in showrooms by November
More.......................
Is a base trim of the Civic Type R finally arriving for MY 2019? (More MY2019 info inside)
More.......................
Team Honda Research wins ST2 at NASA Nationals with their NC1 NSX
More.......................
Professional Motorsports --> Re: 2018 MotoGP
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: F1 - 2018 United States Grand Prix Race Spoilers
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: Top Gear: Here's what seven months living with a Honda Civic Type R is like
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: Engineering Explained on the CTR and its motor
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: evo's best Japanese cars, 5 new, 5 old
Join Discussion......
RDX --> Re: Switch Wheels 2019 RDX Tech to Advance ????
Join Discussion......
RDX --> Re: Drove one over the weekend...
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: European CO2 madness and why electromobility is pointless
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Teslaís "Full Self Driving" Scam coming to light
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: The Dirt on Clean Electric Cars
Join Discussion......
CR-V --> Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T (And 2.0 CTR)
Join Discussion......
Ridgeline - General Talk --> Re: Honda to bring mystery off-road truck to 2018 SEMA
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: 2019/2020 Honda FR GT500
Join Discussion......
Accord --> Re: 02 Accord V6 EX Coupe Stalling!
Join Discussion......
First Drive: 2019 Honda Pilot
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Pilot PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Honda Insight
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Insight PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Acura RDX
Read Article....................
2019 Acura RDX Features & Specifications
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans

Go to:

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - [1] 2
Author
  Post New Thread
HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 09:07
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Elon Musk, genius or scam artist?

"Itís an imperfect ranking because Tesla didnít break out sales by country, and the Model 3 tally included some deliveries to customers in Canada. And the climb comes at a time when Americans prefer crossovers, SUVs and trucks by an ever-wider margin. Nonetheless, the third-quarter showing was unprecedented for an electric car and a remarkable turnabout for Tesla, which struggled for much of the last year to mass-produce the sedan.

......For now, Tesla is the first and only electric car to break into the ranks that are dominated by Japanese and Korean carmakers. And itís doing so at a higher price than other mass-market cars. The most expensive versions of the Model 3 are currently the most popular, with an average selling price approaching $60,000. Tesla says cheaper versions starting at $35,000ódesigned to appeal to a wider group of buyersómay be coming around the end of the year.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-03/tesla-s-model-3-is-becoming-one-of-america-s-best-selling-sedans

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 10:03
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
Elon Musk, genius or scam artist?

"Itís an imperfect ranking because Tesla didnít break out sales by country, and the Model 3 tally included some deliveries to customers in Canada. And the climb comes at a time when Americans prefer crossovers, SUVs and trucks by an ever-wider margin. Nonetheless, the third-quarter showing was unprecedented for an electric car and a remarkable turnabout for Tesla, which struggled for much of the last year to mass-produce the sedan.

......For now, Tesla is the first and only electric car to break into the ranks that are dominated by Japanese and Korean carmakers. And itís doing so at a higher price than other mass-market cars. The most expensive versions of the Model 3 are currently the most popular, with an average selling price approaching $60,000. Tesla says cheaper versions starting at $35,000ódesigned to appeal to a wider group of buyersómay be coming around the end of the year.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-03/tesla-s-model-3-is-becoming-one-of-america-s-best-selling-sedans



You can argue that Musk has gamed the system to ensure his successes. But as I've said before, over the long term, I'm not sure I'd want to bet against him. Like him or not, he tends to get the big stuff done, and he seems to understand where to save time or money while still getting the end result he wants.

Tesla isn't out of the woods yet, but the ride is far from over.

SC

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 11:54
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notyper wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Elon Musk, genius or scam artist?

"Itís an imperfect ranking because Tesla didnít break out sales by country, and the Model 3 tally included some deliveries to customers in Canada. And the climb comes at a time when Americans prefer crossovers, SUVs and trucks by an ever-wider margin. Nonetheless, the third-quarter showing was unprecedented for an electric car and a remarkable turnabout for Tesla, which struggled for much of the last year to mass-produce the sedan.

......For now, Tesla is the first and only electric car to break into the ranks that are dominated by Japanese and Korean carmakers. And itís doing so at a higher price than other mass-market cars. The most expensive versions of the Model 3 are currently the most popular, with an average selling price approaching $60,000. Tesla says cheaper versions starting at $35,000ódesigned to appeal to a wider group of buyersómay be coming around the end of the year.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-03/tesla-s-model-3-is-becoming-one-of-america-s-best-selling-sedans



You can argue that Musk has gamed the system to ensure his successes. But as I've said before, over the long term, I'm not sure I'd want to bet against him. Like him or not, he tends to get the big stuff done, and he seems to understand where to save time or money while still getting the end result he wants.

Tesla isn't out of the woods yet, but the ride is far from over.

SC


Automobile makers have been "gaming the system" since the industry was founded. They (GM, in particular) was instrumental in removing the rail cars from cities and turning them into roads for cars and buses.

"Jaywalking" laws were passed to turn the public thoroughfares into primarily auto-friendly passageways. They resisted all types of safety measures (seat belts, air gags etc) for years even when they were proven lifesavers.

My point is that Tesla is simply playing a game pioneered by the others.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2013/06/be-careful-how-you-refer-so-called-great-american-streetcar-scandal/5771/

https://www.salon.com/2015/08/20/the_secret_history_of_jaywalking_the_disturbing_reason_it_was_outlawed_and_why_we_should_lift_the_ban/

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 13:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
If true, I'm slightly concerned that this many people are spending $60,000 on a car period. Seems like a debt bubble waiting to burst.
wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 14:28
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I've seen a few of them on the road now. Typically I have liked Tesla's styling up to now. The bottom half of the 3 looks ok but the top half looks like Matt Groening had a hand in the design....
rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 15:26
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I'm seeing more and more of these on the road now. Saw a brand new one in the parking lot where I work yesterday. I do not care for the styling nor the visual build quality based on what I saw up close. It's certainly intriguing the kind of money these are going for.

The 6 is far more attractive IMO also.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2018 13:31
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
wooderson79 wrote:
I've seen a few of them on the road now. Typically I have liked Tesla's styling up to now. The bottom half of the 3 looks ok but the top half looks like Matt Groening had a hand in the design....


Ha!


Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2018 17:45
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2018 20:32
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2018 23:46
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.





Honda will get in the act when there's money to be made. They're not going to lose money like Tesla is bleeding just to brag about sales numbers.

myhui
Profile for myhui
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 02:29
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I have one: their 4WD Performance version, with all options included.

It is a fantastic car, except for the 4072 lbs curb weight.

The acceleration is phenomenal.

The cornering and steering feel is pretty good too.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 09:14
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).



Last edited by danielgr on 10-12-2018 09:19
HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 10:01
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 11:20
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Tesla actually makes a lot of money per vehicle, about as much as a SUV. The problem is that they're spending the money as fast as they're getting it. And they've clearly burned a lot of money because of shortsighted decisions, particularly involving manufacturing. Tesla really does think 'outside the box' in challenging established vehicle norms (such as HVAC and integrated electronics, including ASICs), the problem is that they either don't execute or they fall into the Silicon Valley Hubris of taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it (case in point: door handles and doors).

"Cost of ownership" is a real argument in favor of BEVs, but not to Teslas specifically. I've seen people try to claim that they're actually saving money by buying a Model S because of zero fuel cost; but once you take electricity, cost of tires and Tesla's own maintenance regime. they're actually very expensive. Much more than a mainstream sedan.

Now, if you are talking about cost to own for a used Nissan Leaf or a leased Nissan Leaf, there is almost nothing out there that can beat it.

I think the real motivator now for OEMs to get into BEVs is the duality of China's new environmental policy, as well as VW's Dieselgate scandal. In a way, the timing is very unfortunate for Tesla because while everyone in the United States wants a Model 3 etc, the market is starting to be hit with EVs from every OEM and full ranges will be available within 3 years. And I don't think that it's very difficult to beat the Model 3 from an objective performance standpoint. At that point Tesla will only have its name and its insane CEO/fanbase to count on.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 16:36
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
Tesla actually makes a lot of money per vehicle, about as much as a SUV. The problem is that they're spending the money as fast as they're getting it. And they've clearly burned a lot of money because of shortsighted decisions, particularly involving manufacturing. Tesla really does think 'outside the box' in challenging established vehicle norms (such as HVAC and integrated electronics, including ASICs), the problem is that they either don't execute or they fall into the Silicon Valley Hubris of taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it (case in point: door handles and doors).

"Cost of ownership" is a real argument in favor of BEVs, but not to Teslas specifically. I've seen people try to claim that they're actually saving money by buying a Model S because of zero fuel cost; but once you take electricity, cost of tires and Tesla's own maintenance regime. they're actually very expensive. Much more than a mainstream sedan.

Now, if you are talking about cost to own for a used Nissan Leaf or a leased Nissan Leaf, there is almost nothing out there that can beat it.

I think the real motivator now for OEMs to get into BEVs is the duality of China's new environmental policy, as well as VW's Dieselgate scandal. In a way, the timing is very unfortunate for Tesla because while everyone in the United States wants a Model 3 etc, the market is starting to be hit with EVs from every OEM and full ranges will be available within 3 years. And I don't think that it's very difficult to beat the Model 3 from an objective performance standpoint. At that point Tesla will only have its name and its insane CEO/fanbase to count on.



My thoughts exactly, and let me add, for a progressive company, its strange to read Musk poo pooing solid state batteries. When said deep pockets competitors debut their solid state battery tech and Tesla is still using lithium batteries, I shudder to think whats going to happen to their stock and place in the market.

Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 17:14
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Tesla actually makes a lot of money per vehicle, about as much as a SUV. The problem is that they're spending the money as fast as they're getting it. And they've clearly burned a lot of money because of shortsighted decisions, particularly involving manufacturing. Tesla really does think 'outside the box' in challenging established vehicle norms (such as HVAC and integrated electronics, including ASICs), the problem is that they either don't execute or they fall into the Silicon Valley Hubris of taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it (case in point: door handles and doors).

"Cost of ownership" is a real argument in favor of BEVs, but not to Teslas specifically. I've seen people try to claim that they're actually saving money by buying a Model S because of zero fuel cost; but once you take electricity, cost of tires and Tesla's own maintenance regime. they're actually very expensive. Much more than a mainstream sedan.

Now, if you are talking about cost to own for a used Nissan Leaf or a leased Nissan Leaf, there is almost nothing out there that can beat it.

I think the real motivator now for OEMs to get into BEVs is the duality of China's new environmental policy, as well as VW's Dieselgate scandal. In a way, the timing is very unfortunate for Tesla because while everyone in the United States wants a Model 3 etc, the market is starting to be hit with EVs from every OEM and full ranges will be available within 3 years. And I don't think that it's very difficult to beat the Model 3 from an objective performance standpoint. At that point Tesla will only have its name and its insane CEO/fanbase to count on.



My thoughts exactly, and let me add, for a progressive company, its strange to read Musk poo pooing solid state batteries. When said deep pockets competitors debut their solid state battery tech and Tesla is still using lithium batteries, I shudder to think whats going to happen to their stock and place in the market.


Fake news. The Musk just said he does not believe it will be on market before 10 years.

Panasonic is leader of solid state battery research. Tesla manufactures batteries under Panasonic patent.

Fact

Then the day will come Tesla will produce solid state batteries if it will be a thing:

Proof:

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-nissan-honda-panasonic-partner-to-develop-solid-state-batteries/


Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2018 17:18
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/17/panasonic-pledges-to-decrease-cobalt-content-of-tesla-ev-batteries/
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2018 00:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.



Those programs are available to all companies, but it is quite clear at this point that they aren't enough to cover the R&D on a full electric program.

Also, some of those credits are not unlimited and while they are available to everyone, the volume they switch off at is actually relatively low. A company like Honda or Ford, etc who doesn't have a business plan that revolves strictly around electrics and also MUST produce results for the shareholders has to tread lightly on these projects because they can quickly become a sinkhole. Look how conservative companies like Honda have been with the FCEV, even though they believe that long term, it will end up being the most viable solution? I think from an engineering standpoint, they also see that the technology to make BEV's feasible; if they ever will be, is still a couple of generations off.

As for cost of ownership? I don't expect the cost of Tesla ownership to be greatly less than something costing half as much to begin with. There is some savings in fuel, but extra costs in other areas as well.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2018 07:53
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.



As for cost of ownership? I don't expect the cost of Tesla ownership to be greatly less than something costing half as much to begin with. There is some savings in fuel, but extra costs in other areas as well.


I did a quick build of a fully loaded Acura TSX Advance. The price was almost $48,000. Where did the "half as much" come from in comparison to the $60k Tesla? Remember the $60k was also for fully loaded Model 3's.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2018 09:27
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.



As for cost of ownership? I don't expect the cost of Tesla ownership to be greatly less than something costing half as much to begin with. There is some savings in fuel, but extra costs in other areas as well.


I did a quick build of a fully loaded Acura TSX Advance. The price was almost $48,000. Where did the "half as much" come from in comparison to the $60k Tesla? Remember the $60k was also for fully loaded Model 3's.


I think Owe was saying the total cost of ownership for the loaded Model 3 will be more than half that of the loaded TLX over 5 to 10 years. That makes sense since it's mostly the additional cost of fuel for the Acura above the cost of electricity for the Tesla which favors the Tesla. As time passes the advantage for the Tesla diminishes because of fuel being just one factor in ownership cost. This is a good reminder that one of the greatest costs of owning any car is insurance. In 10 years time, it's probably a wash between the full-up Tesla 3 and the TLX SH-AWD Advance.

I should ask one of the Tesla owners at work about their charging costs. There are now several more EVs in my office garage than free charging stations. If the estimates I see of miles per dollar values for charging EVs at home and putting gas in a comparable car are close, the EV folks at work had a great thing going until the young punk Model 3 guys arrived!

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 00:03
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
owequitit wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.



As for cost of ownership? I don't expect the cost of Tesla ownership to be greatly less than something costing half as much to begin with. There is some savings in fuel, but extra costs in other areas as well.


I did a quick build of a fully loaded Acura TSX Advance. The price was almost $48,000. Where did the "half as much" come from in comparison to the $60k Tesla? Remember the $60k was also for fully loaded Model 3's.



I should have said "more", not less.

That said, the majority of TLX's sold are I4 models, and not top line models. Just like the Tesla's average skews toward the top, the TLX's probably skews toward the bottom of the average.

Also, check the reliability reports. Tesla's (especially the model 3) have been having a lot of warranty claim issues and fitment/quality issues etc. I am sure there is a site that would aggregate that stuff, like Truecar, but I haven't really cared enough to look. At this point, the Model 3's stuff would most likely be statistical projections anyway.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 00:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
longhorn wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Tesla actually makes a lot of money per vehicle, about as much as a SUV. The problem is that they're spending the money as fast as they're getting it. And they've clearly burned a lot of money because of shortsighted decisions, particularly involving manufacturing. Tesla really does think 'outside the box' in challenging established vehicle norms (such as HVAC and integrated electronics, including ASICs), the problem is that they either don't execute or they fall into the Silicon Valley Hubris of taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it (case in point: door handles and doors).

"Cost of ownership" is a real argument in favor of BEVs, but not to Teslas specifically. I've seen people try to claim that they're actually saving money by buying a Model S because of zero fuel cost; but once you take electricity, cost of tires and Tesla's own maintenance regime. they're actually very expensive. Much more than a mainstream sedan.

Now, if you are talking about cost to own for a used Nissan Leaf or a leased Nissan Leaf, there is almost nothing out there that can beat it.

I think the real motivator now for OEMs to get into BEVs is the duality of China's new environmental policy, as well as VW's Dieselgate scandal. In a way, the timing is very unfortunate for Tesla because while everyone in the United States wants a Model 3 etc, the market is starting to be hit with EVs from every OEM and full ranges will be available within 3 years. And I don't think that it's very difficult to beat the Model 3 from an objective performance standpoint. At that point Tesla will only have its name and its insane CEO/fanbase to count on.



My thoughts exactly, and let me add, for a progressive company, its strange to read Musk poo pooing solid state batteries. When said deep pockets competitors debut their solid state battery tech and Tesla is still using lithium batteries, I shudder to think whats going to happen to their stock and place in the market.



Well, Musk has bet his entire infrastructure on the cell tech he is using, so he pretty much has no choice but to double down on it and downplay any competing technologies.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 04:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
longhorn wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Tesla actually makes a lot of money per vehicle, about as much as a SUV. The problem is that they're spending the money as fast as they're getting it. And they've clearly burned a lot of money because of shortsighted decisions, particularly involving manufacturing. Tesla really does think 'outside the box' in challenging established vehicle norms (such as HVAC and integrated electronics, including ASICs), the problem is that they either don't execute or they fall into the Silicon Valley Hubris of taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it (case in point: door handles and doors).

"Cost of ownership" is a real argument in favor of BEVs, but not to Teslas specifically. I've seen people try to claim that they're actually saving money by buying a Model S because of zero fuel cost; but once you take electricity, cost of tires and Tesla's own maintenance regime. they're actually very expensive. Much more than a mainstream sedan.

Now, if you are talking about cost to own for a used Nissan Leaf or a leased Nissan Leaf, there is almost nothing out there that can beat it.

I think the real motivator now for OEMs to get into BEVs is the duality of China's new environmental policy, as well as VW's Dieselgate scandal. In a way, the timing is very unfortunate for Tesla because while everyone in the United States wants a Model 3 etc, the market is starting to be hit with EVs from every OEM and full ranges will be available within 3 years. And I don't think that it's very difficult to beat the Model 3 from an objective performance standpoint. At that point Tesla will only have its name and its insane CEO/fanbase to count on.



My thoughts exactly, and let me add, for a progressive company, its strange to read Musk poo pooing solid state batteries. When said deep pockets competitors debut their solid state battery tech and Tesla is still using lithium batteries, I shudder to think whats going to happen to their stock and place in the market.



Well, Musk has bet his entire infrastructure on the cell tech he is using, so he pretty much has no choice but to double down on it and downplay any competing technologies.



danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 06:15
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.

I think I am being as objective as one can be.

It seems to me though, that your answer pointed plenty of stuff unrelated with the points I made. Let me take a little bit more time to explain them better, just in case there was any misunderstanding.

Objective factors why the Tesla Model 3 monthly ales are now pretty high:
- Tesla has been amassing hype and orders for years while being unable to make the cars. So there is a ton of pent-up demand for them.
- Those wanting such a car might be a minority, but it remains the only one of its kind available, so all of them concentrate on a single product.
- Until about mid October buyers would be able to benefit from a pretty substantial discount on their purchase, which will then disappear (though as far as I can remember it goes down in steps).
- Tesla has been losing money for years (and is still losing money), so that means they are not selling their products at a price high enough to make them viable as a company (for buyers that's great, since that means they are getting more for their money).

I am not talking about the products themselves, nor Musk, nor whatever other thing you may want to discuss regarding this topic, but bringing up objective factors that in my opinion help explaining why :
- Tesla model 3 monthly sales are rivalling longtime segment leaders, while
- Overall demand for electric cars are pretty low.

Now you may think that having 10 manufacturers making Tesla Model 3 like cars would multiply the segment sales by 10, or maybe that no-one would be able to challenge Tesla products if they tried. I do think both of those lines of thinking would be proven wrong, that overall market demand for such cars remains a niche (meaning 10 players would simply divide the cake in 10 pieces), and that the other guys aren't competing not because they can't but because they don't want to.

I also know that the last time a few manufacturers lost money over a quarter the financial markets nearly pushed them bankrupt (many of them actually went through that in some way or another). So I kind of totally understand them taking it easily, because the type of folks buying their shares (like me) aren't the same ones buying Tesla's.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2018 03:29
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.

I think I am being as objective as one can be.

It seems to me though, that your answer pointed plenty of stuff unrelated with the points I made. Let me take a little bit more time to explain them better, just in case there was any misunderstanding.

Objective factors why the Tesla Model 3 monthly ales are now pretty high:
- Tesla has been amassing hype and orders for years while being unable to make the cars. So there is a ton of pent-up demand for them.
- Those wanting such a car might be a minority, but it remains the only one of its kind available, so all of them concentrate on a single product.
- Until about mid October buyers would be able to benefit from a pretty substantial discount on their purchase, which will then disappear (though as far as I can remember it goes down in steps).
- Tesla has been losing money for years (and is still losing money), so that means they are not selling their products at a price high enough to make them viable as a company (for buyers that's great, since that means they are getting more for their money).

I am not talking about the products themselves, nor Musk, nor whatever other thing you may want to discuss regarding this topic, but bringing up objective factors that in my opinion help explaining why :
- Tesla model 3 monthly sales are rivalling longtime segment leaders, while
- Overall demand for electric cars are pretty low.

Now you may think that having 10 manufacturers making Tesla Model 3 like cars would multiply the segment sales by 10, or maybe that no-one would be able to challenge Tesla products if they tried. I do think both of those lines of thinking would be proven wrong, that overall market demand for such cars remains a niche (meaning 10 players would simply divide the cake in 10 pieces), and that the other guys aren't competing not because they can't but because they don't want to.

I also know that the last time a few manufacturers lost money over a quarter the financial markets nearly pushed them bankrupt (many of them actually went through that in some way or another). So I kind of totally understand them taking it easily, because the type of folks buying their shares (like me) aren't the same ones buying Tesla's.



It should be noted here too that Tesla has publicly said that in order to get the $7500 tax credit, you have to order the car by sometime in October, so it can be delivered by December because after that, the Federal credit doesn't exist anymore on their BEV's.

I am not saying that is what is driving sales, but it is worth mentioning.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2018 12:23
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.

I think I am being as objective as one can be.

It seems to me though, that your answer pointed plenty of stuff unrelated with the points I made. Let me take a little bit more time to explain them better, just in case there was any misunderstanding.

Objective factors why the Tesla Model 3 monthly ales are now pretty high:
- Tesla has been amassing hype and orders for years while being unable to make the cars. So there is a ton of pent-up demand for them.
- Those wanting such a car might be a minority, but it remains the only one of its kind available, so all of them concentrate on a single product.
- Until about mid October buyers would be able to benefit from a pretty substantial discount on their purchase, which will then disappear (though as far as I can remember it goes down in steps).
- Tesla has been losing money for years (and is still losing money), so that means they are not selling their products at a price high enough to make them viable as a company (for buyers that's great, since that means they are getting more for their money).

I am not talking about the products themselves, nor Musk, nor whatever other thing you may want to discuss regarding this topic, but bringing up objective factors that in my opinion help explaining why :
- Tesla model 3 monthly sales are rivalling longtime segment leaders, while
- Overall demand for electric cars are pretty low.

Now you may think that having 10 manufacturers making Tesla Model 3 like cars would multiply the segment sales by 10, or maybe that no-one would be able to challenge Tesla products if they tried. I do think both of those lines of thinking would be proven wrong, that overall market demand for such cars remains a niche (meaning 10 players would simply divide the cake in 10 pieces), and that the other guys aren't competing not because they can't but because they don't want to.

I also know that the last time a few manufacturers lost money over a quarter the financial markets nearly pushed them bankrupt (many of them actually went through that in some way or another). So I kind of totally understand them taking it easily, because the type of folks buying their shares (like me) aren't the same ones buying Tesla's.



It should be noted here too that Tesla has publicly said that in order to get the $7500 tax credit, you have to order the car by sometime in October, so it can be delivered by December because after that, the Federal credit doesn't exist anymore on their BEV's.

I am not saying that is what is driving sales, but it is worth mentioning.



The full $7500 credit expires 12/31/18. But as daniel has indicated, it's phased out in steps.

For deliveries that take place from January 1, 2019 - June 30, 2019 there's a $3750 credit.
From July 1, 2019 - December 31, 2019 it's $1875
After that, there's no tax credit.

As to danielgr's other points, I am in complete agreement.


DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 16:07
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
This is really an astounding phenomena, and I must be poor enough to have absolutely nowhere near the amount of patience for this garbage:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/well-i-rejected-my-white-p3d.130762/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/frustrated-with-repeated-reschedule-need-to-take-action-please-suggest.131313/

Saving the planet must allow you to have shit quality, customer service, logistics and support.

This is the real noose around their neck.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 19:54
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Wow to the guy that had the chipped up car...Just wow.
At least he rejected it, but It kind of baffles me the kind of money some folks are dropping on these things with the sub-par level of quality displayed. It's intriguing and mind-boggling all at once.

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 03:10
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
shows you how much stockholm syndrome their fans suffer from
HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Teslaís Model 3 Is Becoming One of Americaís Best-Selling Sedans    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 08:50
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
danielgr wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I have seen a few I like the darker colors, maybe since looks more low to ground. Certainly no S model but I find them handsome in the dark colors I have seen.

I agree whoever said 60k and the number of people spending this kind of money is crazy considering you canít even lease. What it does tell you there is a hunger for BEV that have good range and donít look ugly. Honda get in the act.

Still need to see the interior that has always been my biggest issue.

B.


Yep. It's nipping right at the heels of the Accord and at $60,000.

On a race against the end of crazy subsidies against virtually no competition (there is nothing like it in the market).
We will see how it sells over a 5 year model lifetime period once subsidies are gone and Tesla is making money out of them, or when initial hype has faded (or the market has developed, if it ever does).


Gee, can't we try and be even just a little bit objective?

I am no fan of any of Tesla's products. I live in the Midwest where there are very few superchargers. I drive long distances a lot and the idea of searching for a charging station when I am driving by all those gas stations lined up along the roadside would drive me up the proverbial wall.

But the fact is all the so-called advantages that Tesla is supposedly taking advantage of (subsidies, hype etc.) were and are still available to all the auto companies. If there is nothing like it on the market as you say, isn't that what brilliant market analysis is all about and is that Tesla's fault?

Will the hype fade after 5 years? Perhaps. Just as it did for Honda's first Insight when the Prius came and blew it out of the water.

And as far as the "outrageous" price of $60,000, I am no economic analyst, but could it be that over the course of say a 5-10 year ownership, the total ownership cost of the Tesla Model 3 and say, an Acura TSX might be the same or close?

I can understand people's feelings about Elon Musk, but I'd hope that we can assess a piece of automotive technology based on its merits and not entangle that with our resentment, however justified, of the founder of the company.

I think I am being as objective as one can be.

It seems to me though, that your answer pointed plenty of stuff unrelated with the points I made. Let me take a little bit more time to explain them better, just in case there was any misunderstanding.

Objective factors why the Tesla Model 3 monthly ales are now pretty high:
- Tesla has been amassing hype and orders for years while being unable to make the cars. So there is a ton of pent-up demand for them.
- Those wanting such a car might be a minority, but it remains the only one of its kind available, so all of them concentrate on a single product.
- Until about mid October buyers would be able to benefit from a pretty substantial discount on their purchase, which will then disappear (though as far as I can remember it goes down in steps).
- Tesla has been losing money for years (and is still losing money), so that means they are not selling their products at a price high enough to make them viable as a company (for buyers that's great, since that means they are getting more for their money).

I am not talking about the products themselves, nor Musk, nor whatever other thing you may want to discuss regarding this topic, but bringing up objective factors that in my opinion help explaining why :
- Tesla model 3 monthly sales are rivalling longtime segment leaders, while
- Overall demand for electric cars are pretty low.

Now you may think that having 10 manufacturers making Tesla Model 3 like cars would multiply the segment sales by 10, or maybe that no-one would be able to challenge Tesla products if they tried. I do think both of those lines of thinking would be proven wrong, that overall market demand for such cars remains a niche (meaning 10 players would simply divide the cake in 10 pieces), and that the other guys aren't competing not because they can't but because they don't want to.

I also know that the last time a few manufacturers lost money over a quarter the financial markets nearly pushed them bankrupt (many of them actually went through that in some way or another). So I kind of totally understand them taking it easily, because the type of folks buying their shares (like me) aren't the same ones buying Tesla's.



It should be noted here too that Tesla has publicly said that in order to get the $7500 tax credit, you have to order the car by sometime in October, so it can be delivered by December because after that, the Federal credit doesn't exist anymore on their BEV's.

I am not saying that is what is driving sales, but it is worth mentioning.



"U.S. Senate bill could give Tesla, GM electric car tax credit boost"

"Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) and General Motors Co (GM.N), which have lobbied Congress to lift a cap on electric vehicles eligible for a $7,500 tax credit, could get their way for up to four years under a new proposal from a Republican senator.

On Thursday, Senator Dean Heller proposed legislation that would lift the current cap on electric vehicles eligible for tax credits. Reuters obtained a copy of the text of the previously unreported bill, which has not been posted on the Senate website.

Under current law, once a manufacturer hits 200,000 EVs sold, the tax credit phases out starting in the following quarter. Hellerís bill lifts the individual manufacturer cap but would phase out the credit for the entire industry in 2022."


What is good for General Motors (and Tesla) is good for America?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-autos-evs/u-s-senate-bill-could-give-tesla-gm-electric-car-tax-credit-boost-idUSKCN1MQ2QD


 
Thread Page - [1] 2
Go to:
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2018 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
29 mobile: 0