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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018

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sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-21-2018 19:40
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I think they said it was fresh rubber, not necessarily more aggressive.

And 1mm of pad material per lap reminded me of a race meeting back in my very early days of competition, running a Gen 1 Integra, with standard drive train and brakes but upgraded dampers, we went in having to use standard issue brake pads because the Hardie Ferrodo race speck pads failed to arrive in time. Lasted half way through the race meeting before it was metal to metal.........1988 seems like an age ago. Wait, it was! :)

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2018 00:51
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sadlerau wrote:
I think they said it was fresh rubber, not necessarily more aggressive.

And 1mm of pad material per lap reminded me of a race meeting back in my very early days of competition, running a Gen 1 Integra, with standard drive train and brakes but upgraded dampers, we went in having to use standard issue brake pads because the Hardie Ferrodo race speck pads failed to arrive in time. Lasted half way through the race meeting before it was metal to metal.........1988 seems like an age ago. Wait, it was! :)



They did say "new rubber" but didn't specify grade. I suppose that lapping would have eaten the all seasons at about the same rate as the brake pads, so you could be correct.

Still, it is interesting to consider that without additional power, and just a couple of specific upgrades, this car would likely shave a few seconds off the time pretty easily.

Interestingly, the Accord still uses 235 width tires, but on 8.5" wide wheels, so you could actually get a 255 width on there, which is a size readily available in most max performance summer tires. I assume Honda did that for MPG reasons, but I noticed that the tires looked slightly "stretched" so I looked into it. The 18's on the 9th gen were 8" wide so you could go to 255 in certain sizes, but mostly, the recommended max is 245. I would think that a switch to max performance rubber, DOT4 fluid and upgraded pads, an LSD, rear sway bar and a slight tune would make this car pretty damn quick for a street friendly, reasonably priced family hauler.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2018 02:13
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Looking at the article, they said they put new rubber on the Accord. The video still shows the car with the Goodyear Eagle Touring Tires. If they did put in a different brand/model, I think they should clarify as tires do make a pretty big difference.

But wow, that lap time is impressive nonetheless. Fit some Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R for $900 along with better brakes should shave many seconds off the time.

The Stinger GT is little disappointing given how much hype there is about how it's a proper sports sedan and how it's engineered by a ex-BMW M division engineer.

The Ford GT seems pretty pricey for its performance too. I get that it's a Ford GT which is something very special. But wow for half a mil it's a little embarrassing to post that kind of lap time when a bunch of prestigious brands and models are faster and cheaper, namely, the 911 GT2 RS, Corvette ZR1, McLaren 720S, Lambourghini Huracan. Performante.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2018 13:39
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sadlerau wrote:
I think they said it was fresh rubber, not necessarily more aggressive.

And 1mm of pad material per lap reminded me of a race meeting back in my very early days of competition, running a Gen 1 Integra, with standard drive train and brakes but upgraded dampers, we went in having to use standard issue brake pads because the Hardie Ferrodo race speck pads failed to arrive in time. Lasted half way through the race meeting before it was metal to metal.........1988 seems like an age ago. Wait, it was! :)



I was a year old.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2018 13:49
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The only thing with 255s is that you may start rubbing. I also don't know what the clearance is to the strut, etc. 245s might be ok but I'd start smaller unless you add extra power to the car. Or maybe run a reverse stagger setup, like the Audi RS3.

The Ford GT is disappointing. It's very highly priced, had a difficult gestation period (powertrain dev in particular was hell I've heard), and performance turned out to be not that great. What makes it almost unforgivable is the douchetastic way Ford vetted buyers and had a no-sell clause.

I don't know about the Stinger being a sports sedan though... I always thought it was marketed as a GT (which is why I thought the 4banger "sport" version was a waste if you wanted to buy the car). The "sport" sedan was supposed to be the Genesis version.

Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2018 14:15
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I can attest to the issues with the GT development. Hottest piston temps Iíve ever seen. Engines were blowing up very late in development with some extremely unusual failure mechanisms including one we had never seen before, ever. The loading on that engine is insane. For all that and the price, it should be the fastest car around any track period.
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2018 02:58
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That's a good point about the Stinger GT begin a GT car. I guess I feel it's disappointing because of the Accord's lap time lol. A mid-size family hauler with crappy all season tires (not even high performance ones), regular brakes, no LSD, and 110hp less isn't that far behind.

Yea..the Ford GT...lol. You don't need the ZR1 to embarrass it. The Z06 already set a faster time, granted on a different day and condition. Heck, just looked again and the $72K Camaro ZL1 1LE tested last year was just 0.2s slower...

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-24-2018 01:59
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CarPhreakD wrote:
The only thing with 255s is that you may start rubbing. I also don't know what the clearance is to the strut, etc. 245s might be ok but I'd start smaller unless you add extra power to the car. Or maybe run a reverse stagger setup, like the Audi RS3.

The Ford GT is disappointing. It's very highly priced, had a difficult gestation period (powertrain dev in particular was hell I've heard), and performance turned out to be not that great. What makes it almost unforgivable is the douchetastic way Ford vetted buyers and had a no-sell clause.

I don't know about the Stinger being a sports sedan though... I always thought it was marketed as a GT (which is why I thought the 4banger "sport" version was a waste if you wanted to buy the car). The "sport" sedan was supposed to be the Genesis version.



Honda is usually pretty conservative with tire and wheel widths. I would have to do a finger check, but I am pretty sure there would be enough clearance there to get a set of 255's on it.

I also agree about the Stinger. Much more of a backroad GT and they have even said that it is relatively soft to be a full "sports" car. The sport sedan part was saved for the G70, which apparently seems to have some roll, but otherwise is pretty buttoned down.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-24-2018 15:06
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Obviously it's a a different car, but I did out 265 R888r on my ctr and no rubbing or clearance issues. And those r888r are more like 275 wide based on their design. Granted I was running 18x9.5 ET45 rims so they stick out a bit more than stock. I would think you can do the same to the Accord.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-24-2018 18:32
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That's because the CTR has a double jointed Macstrut setup, and on top of that you are using a different offset (which I would try not to touch personally).
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-24-2018 21:09
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For sure the offset would help. When I had my 2G TL, I changed from 215 to 235, with the wheels still "tucked" in rather than sticking out of the fenders. For my 07 RDX, I again went from 235 to 255, with a slightly lower offset but still not sticking out. Most wheels are Honda are "tucked in" quite a bit and IMO lowering the offset isn't that bad of an idea, to fit 20mm wider tires.

Ya I understand the dual axis suspension is designed to minimize torque steer and that messing the offset might increase torque steering. From my experience on the track, it's been fine though. I think not going crazy with the offset is probably on reason. It also helps that the track is smooth.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 11:40
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I would look up "Offset vs Scrub Radius". At some point wider tires do become a point of diminishing returns.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 13:32
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I would look up "Offset vs Scrub Radius". At some point wider tires do become a point of diminishing returns.


Just keep the dave point where it belongs and you're good to go.

SC

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 13:45
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Honestly, I think there's a greater likelyhood of an Integra-ILX R4 (SH-AWD, 8DCT) than an Accord Si.

It's sad, but AHM has never really put its heart on a sport Accord. The car runs great as it is, so I guess the best you could do is upgrade the tires and the shocks. And perhaps the brake pads.

Upgrading the Accord would run into the CTR, which is simply the better option for the price (lighter and faster) and I don't know how many Accord shoppers know what an LSD is. Not enough to make it worthwhile.

Recall that back in the day, Cunningham was racing the Euro Accord, not the American version. Even though we had the V6/6MT in here.

Back in '90 there was an Euro Accord SiR. I saw one, but that was it. No SiR soup for us in the Land of the Free.




TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 13:48
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Grace141 wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting if Honda were to offer a version of this Accord Sport with maybe tidier dimensions, a shade more power, and, I don't know, an intelligent AWD system which would work really hard so the brakes don't have to? See where I'm going here?

They could even use all of the modern-talk terms they want like it being "low hanging fruit" and offering "edge to edge performance". Asking for Italianesque styling is maybe going too far. Asking for a proper sporting motorcar transmission shouldn't be.



THAT would be an Acura.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 15:31
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TonyEX wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a greater likelyhood of an Integra-ILX R4 (SH-AWD, 8DCT) than an Accord Si.

It's sad, but AHM has never really put its heart on a sport Accord. The car runs great as it is, so I guess the best you could do is upgrade the tires and the shocks. And perhaps the brake pads.

Upgrading the Accord would run into the CTR, which is simply the better option for the price (lighter and faster) and I don't know how many Accord shoppers know what an LSD is. Not enough to make it worthwhile.

Recall that back in the day, Cunningham was racing the Euro Accord, not the American version. Even though we had the V6/6MT in here.

Back in '90 there was an Euro Accord SiR. I saw one, but that was it. No SiR soup for us in the Land of the Free.






You spelled 6MT wrong :P

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 16:05
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JeffX wrote:
AcCoRdV6ExNaVi wrote:
The brake vectoring is AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system. It's standard on all Accord and Civic models, including Civic Type R.

Agile Handling Assist
Standard on all Accord trims, Agile Handling Assist selectively uses the vehicle's brakes to improve initial turning response and overall cornering ability. Agile Handling Assist utilizes brake vectoring to improve corner traceability and promote a confident handling feel. By applying braking force to the inside wheels during cornering at high lateral G, the system creates a yaw moment, thus generating more turning force and reducing understeer. Agile Handling Assist further sharpens the Accordís dynamics when the driving mode system is set to SPORT.



I'm inclined to think that AHA is applied almost universally to Honda products now.



Even with SH-AWD and AWD (like Pilot and Ridgeline)?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-25-2018 16:48
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TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
AcCoRdV6ExNaVi wrote:
The brake vectoring is AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system. It's standard on all Accord and Civic models, including Civic Type R.

Agile Handling Assist
Standard on all Accord trims, Agile Handling Assist selectively uses the vehicle's brakes to improve initial turning response and overall cornering ability. Agile Handling Assist utilizes brake vectoring to improve corner traceability and promote a confident handling feel. By applying braking force to the inside wheels during cornering at high lateral G, the system creates a yaw moment, thus generating more turning force and reducing understeer. Agile Handling Assist further sharpens the Accordís dynamics when the driving mode system is set to SPORT.



I'm inclined to think that AHA is applied almost universally to Honda products now.



Even with SH-AWD and AWD (like Pilot and Ridgeline)?



I don't see why not. Unlike the mechanical AWD systems, it functions all the time, on or off throttle.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 01:31
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I would look up "Offset vs Scrub Radius". At some point wider tires do become a point of diminishing returns.


Yup, Honda decided to go with that OEM offset for a reason, so for sure I'd avoid messing around with it too much. Besides...I don't really like wheels sticking out.

For sure it's going to become a point of diminishing returns. I think that's why we are looking at something just a bit wider, not going crazy with like 305 tires or something. I'd imagine the stock tire width for the Accord was chosen so that it would just have the right appearance, okay performance, and good fuel economy.

HDNBenjamin
Profile for HDNBenjamin
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 01:47
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very impressed by the CTR lap time. tied with the RS5 that costs a lot more.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 10:20
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HDNBenjamin wrote:
very impressed by the CTR lap time. tied with the RS5 that costs a lot more.


Double or more, but they are a bit too rich for my blood. Nice cars though. The black seats with red stitching and Daytona Gray pearl would be my choice.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 14:11
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JeffX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
AcCoRdV6ExNaVi wrote:
The brake vectoring is AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system. It's standard on all Accord and Civic models, including Civic Type R.

Agile Handling Assist
Standard on all Accord trims, Agile Handling Assist selectively uses the vehicle's brakes to improve initial turning response and overall cornering ability. Agile Handling Assist utilizes brake vectoring to improve corner traceability and promote a confident handling feel. By applying braking force to the inside wheels during cornering at high lateral G, the system creates a yaw moment, thus generating more turning force and reducing understeer. Agile Handling Assist further sharpens the Accordís dynamics when the driving mode system is set to SPORT.



I'm inclined to think that AHA is applied almost universally to Honda products now.



Even with SH-AWD and AWD (like Pilot and Ridgeline)?



I don't see why not. Unlike the mechanical AWD systems, it functions all the time, on or off throttle.



You ought to see me handle the Ridgeline.

Brakes? We don't need no stinking brakes.

OTOH, when I first learned to drive FWD, in my 76 CVCC, I recalled that Carlsson, the Saab rally driver, noted that he always rode the brakes while applying power during a turn. Given that a tire's maximum adhesion takes into account both lateral and longitudinal (acceleration/braking) forces, by applying some braking to the rear he lowered the amount of lateral force they could handle... at the same time he applied power to the front to counteract the braking.

The end result was that he got rid of most of the understeering.

My first set of brake pads lasted 15K miles.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 14:19
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TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
AcCoRdV6ExNaVi wrote:
The brake vectoring is AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system. It's standard on all Accord and Civic models, including Civic Type R.

Agile Handling Assist
Standard on all Accord trims, Agile Handling Assist selectively uses the vehicle's brakes to improve initial turning response and overall cornering ability. Agile Handling Assist utilizes brake vectoring to improve corner traceability and promote a confident handling feel. By applying braking force to the inside wheels during cornering at high lateral G, the system creates a yaw moment, thus generating more turning force and reducing understeer. Agile Handling Assist further sharpens the Accordís dynamics when the driving mode system is set to SPORT.



I'm inclined to think that AHA is applied almost universally to Honda products now.



Even with SH-AWD and AWD (like Pilot and Ridgeline)?



I don't see why not. Unlike the mechanical AWD systems, it functions all the time, on or off throttle.



You ought to see me handle the Ridgeline.

Brakes? We don't need no stinking brakes.

OTOH, when I first learned to drive FWD, in my 76 CVCC, I recalled that Carlsson, the Saab rally driver, noted that he always rode the brakes while applying power during a turn. Given that a tire's maximum adhesion takes into account both lateral and longitudinal (acceleration/braking) forces, by applying some braking to the rear he lowered the amount of lateral force they could handle... at the same time he applied power to the front to counteract the braking.

The end result was that he got rid of most of the understeering.

My first set of brake pads lasted 15K miles.



I'm still on the original brakes on my '06 Si.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-26-2018 14:25
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TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
AcCoRdV6ExNaVi wrote:
The brake vectoring is AHA (Agile Handling Assist) system. It's standard on all Accord and Civic models, including Civic Type R.

Agile Handling Assist
Standard on all Accord trims, Agile Handling Assist selectively uses the vehicle's brakes to improve initial turning response and overall cornering ability. Agile Handling Assist utilizes brake vectoring to improve corner traceability and promote a confident handling feel. By applying braking force to the inside wheels during cornering at high lateral G, the system creates a yaw moment, thus generating more turning force and reducing understeer. Agile Handling Assist further sharpens the Accordís dynamics when the driving mode system is set to SPORT.



I'm inclined to think that AHA is applied almost universally to Honda products now.



Even with SH-AWD and AWD (like Pilot and Ridgeline)?



I don't see why not. Unlike the mechanical AWD systems, it functions all the time, on or off throttle.



You ought to see me handle the Ridgeline.

Brakes? We don't need no stinking brakes.

OTOH, when I first learned to drive FWD, in my 76 CVCC, I recalled that Carlsson, the Saab rally driver, noted that he always rode the brakes while applying power during a turn. Given that a tire's maximum adhesion takes into account both lateral and longitudinal (acceleration/braking) forces, by applying some braking to the rear he lowered the amount of lateral force they could handle... at the same time he applied power to the front to counteract the braking.

The end result was that he got rid of most of the understeering.

My first set of brake pads lasted 15K miles.




that's really only useful when you can control your brake bias, which I'm assuming they could in a rally car.

With AHA it takes input from the suite of sensors and applies proper brake pressure levels as needed to aid in delivering the desired line trace. It's really an extension of VSA but it's more proactive.

With certain vehicles this will happen almost imperceptibly as the chassis may be closer to the ideal balance in the first place, while in other cars (which may have more understeer/oversteer tendencies), you may have an increased sense of this corrective activity from a system such as AHA.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-27-2018 01:38
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Hondarulez wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I would look up "Offset vs Scrub Radius". At some point wider tires do become a point of diminishing returns.


Yup, Honda decided to go with that OEM offset for a reason, so for sure I'd avoid messing around with it too much. Besides...I don't really like wheels sticking out.

For sure it's going to become a point of diminishing returns. I think that's why we are looking at something just a bit wider, not going crazy with like 305 tires or something. I'd imagine the stock tire width for the Accord was chosen so that it would just have the right appearance, okay performance, and good fuel economy.



Honda has typically been extremely conservative with the stock offerings. They have gotten better recently, but based on experience, there is a bit to be gained with a little bit of additional offset to allow a wider wheel and a wider tire.

Again, like you said, not talking any stupid increase, but like 195 to 215 or 235 to 245 and about an extra inch or so of width seems to pay good dividends on most of them.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-27-2018 15:20
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In reference to the Kia Stinger, there appears to be quite a few discounts on them already:

https://jalopnik.com/the-cheap-kia-stingers-are-coming-1829355766

This would make for a credible daily driver alternative to the Honda Accord at this price point. Particularly if you can get the GT for $7K off/0% APR like the commenter said. At that price I can forgive the crappy brakes and inability to get around a track!

I would be curious if the same happens to the Genesis G70.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-27-2018 15:43
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CarPhreakD wrote:
In reference to the Kia Stinger, there appears to be quite a few discounts on them already:

https://jalopnik.com/the-cheap-kia-stingers-are-coming-1829355766

This would make for a credible daily driver alternative to the Honda Accord at this price point. Particularly if you can get the GT for $7K off/0% APR like the commenter said. At that price I can forgive the crappy brakes and inability to get around a track!

I would be curious if the same happens to the Genesis G70.



It's starting to remind me of the Pontiac G8 in more ways than looks alone.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-28-2018 00:25
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the $7k saved can be used to buy some really nice brakes and tires!
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-28-2018 10:52
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For $7K you can get a beater Miata tracktool, a really nice vacation, or a boost to your investment portfolio. Any of those would be a far better spend than trying to turn the Stinger into something it was never meant to be.
Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: C&D Lightning Lap 2018    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-28-2018 10:59
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The Stinger forums are awash in idiots who paid MSRP just a few months ago. I believe in 2 years the residuals of these will be typical Kia and youíll see GT2ís with 20-30k miles for under $20k. The lease deals arenít even very good even with a $10k discount because the bank residual is around 50%, and that might even be charitable.

 
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