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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!

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Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 05:12
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Thereís always going to be a debate between FWD and RWD here and thatís clearly understandable, however....having RWD alone doesnít automatically mean instant success here. Of course most all of Mercedes and BMW products are RWD based but are these cars selling for only that reason or just their badge power? Audi has proven that RWD isnít a necessity when it comes to the luxury segment as theyíve more than doubled their annual sales volume here in the US since 2012 and have been gaining more and more traction ever since. Theyíve surpassed Acuraís annual sales by at least 50k units a year which is pretty damn substantial. It took them a few generations of product to get there (starting with the 1997 Audi A4) but they finally found their right path to their destination.

So no, RWD platforms ALONE doesnít mean instant success as Infiniti sales are below Acuraís and the Lexus IS/GS/RC arenít really moving any real volume either and never have consistently. The largest factors in my eyes are final product execution, styling execution, performance and fresh infotainment technology. Those attributes attract buyers and Acura hasnít had a successful sedan that met all the criteria since the 3G Acura TL.

Given many publications have said the 2019 RDX is the best product from Acura since the 3G TL, gives me hope as it seems theyíve finally got some direction in regards to the attributes and the criteria I mentioned above. Itís been getting great reviews this far and thereís a higher performance Type-S in the works. Hopefully, the upcoming TLX and next gen MDX will be even more impressive as I think Acura has finally got some engineering going on.

Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 05:27
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nightflow wrote:
Anybody remember the Mitsubishi 3000GT/Dodge Stealth/GTO?

Transverse V6tt w/ 4WD, 4WS in the VR-4.


Oh yes! It was one of the nuggets of the Japanese sport cars 90 s golden era.

Very heavy (downside), but the most advanced car in terms of engineering, electronics and complexity of the time. A real beast


" target="_blank">

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 05:28
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RolledaNsx wrote:
What I understand is the V6t models will use Rear Bias SH-AWD with 10AT.

Sport Hybrid......There will be a new eSH-AWD(TMUII or in Wheel eMotors).It will be for the front wheels,all the ICE power will go to the rear wheels.TLX will not get this.Will need wider Chassis.



Thanks, Rolled.

I guessed they'd have problems packaging a front TMU as it is, so presumably they'd need to de-couple the motors and abandon the mechanical ATTS between them as found on the NSX.

I would have thought that an inline-V would create more space beside the block for separate e-motors and help to negate the 'wide frame' argument. So your idea might not be as daft as you think.

OTOH, if the TMUII can be mounted behind the transverse engine, maybe that schematic isn't as schematic as it first appears. I think a variation of transverse end-on is on balance, more likely.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 05:34
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Mikgtir wrote:
nightflow wrote:
Anybody remember the Mitsubishi 3000GT/Dodge Stealth/GTO?

Transverse V6tt w/ 4WD, 4WS in the VR-4.


Oh yes! It was one of the nuggets of the Japanese sport cars 90 s golden era.

Very heavy (downside), but the most advanced car in terms of engineering, electronics and complexity of the time. A real beast


" target="_blank">



:D

Indeed - a real supercomplication.

Perhaps the Galant VR4 might be more of an appropriate comparison.



Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 05:38
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TonyEX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
What I understand is the V6t models will use Rear Bias SH-AWD with 10AT.

Sport Hybrid......There will be a new eSH-AWD(TMUII or in Wheel eMotors).It will be for the front wheels,all the ICE power will go to the rear wheels.TLX will not get this.Will need wider Chassis.



TMU:

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-automobiles/releases/2017-acura-nsx-press-kit-power-unit?page=2

Scroll down to the pictures of the TMU, search for "Twin Motor Unit".

So, I still wonder that the clutch does in the mechanical TMU. It looks like you would operate declutched and for torque transfer you would engage one regen brake on one side and use that electricity to power the motor on the other side. That way, one side (attempts to) rotates faster than the other, hence torque is transferred.

I'd figure the only time you'd clutch both sides would be under straight line acceleration when both wheels are turning at the same rpm.




IIRC, it's for higher speed torque transfer, when the e-motors have given up. A sort of PassiveTTS rather than an ActiveTTS, as there's no power involved.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 07:11
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sadlerau wrote:
A friend had a red one back in the late nineties, until he wrote it off running into a tractor on a country road. Heavy is the over riding memory I have of it [though I never drove it myself].

That's when he bought himself a 1992 NSX, which he kept for a decade, and has regretted selling it ever since! My regret is I didn't buy it when he sold it [though if I had, he probably would have wanted it back!]. :)





Yes, they were very heavy. I got to experience the standard non-turbo version and it was quite the pig. I used to love the looks, though.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 12:35
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Civicb18 wrote:
Thereís always going to be a debate between FWD and RWD here and thatís clearly understandable, however....having RWD alone doesnít automatically mean instant success here. Of course most all of Mercedes and BMW products are RWD based but are these cars selling for only that reason or just their badge power? Audi has proven that RWD isnít a necessity when it comes to the luxury segment as theyíve more than doubled their annual sales volume here in the US since 2012 and have been gaining more and more traction ever since. Theyíve surpassed Acuraís annual sales by at least 50k units a year which is pretty damn substantial. It took them a few generations of product to get there (starting with the 1997 Audi A4) but they finally found their right path to their destination.

So no, RWD platforms ALONE doesnít mean instant success as Infiniti sales are below Acuraís and the Lexus IS/GS/RC arenít really moving any real volume either and never have consistently. The largest factors in my eyes are final product execution, styling execution, performance and fresh infotainment technology. Those attributes attract buyers and Acura hasnít had a successful sedan that met all the criteria since the 3G Acura TL.

Given many publications have said the 2019 RDX is the best product from Acura since the 3G TL, gives me hope as it seems theyíve finally got some direction in regards to the attributes and the criteria I mentioned above. Itís been getting great reviews this far and thereís a higher performance Type-S in the works. Hopefully, the upcoming TLX and next gen MDX will be even more impressive as I think Acura has finally got some engineering going on.


RWD does not guarantee success but it is basically the main ingredient to be successful in the luxury/performance market.

BMW and Mercedes would have no badge power if they built cars based on FWD platforms and never had a engine larger then a 6 cylinder, they would be Saab.

For the millionth time Audi has struggled in the US market with FWD/AWD but they at least put their products on premium long FWD platforms to make them more competitive. Audi also has a much bigger lineup then Acura or many competitors, Audi has 8, 10, 12 cylinders, a real flagship sedan, don't cost cut and hold back on everything, have 400+hp performance models of just about every car they make while Acura has a very small lineup, its car lineup is arguably the worst it has ever been, and they would not be in the position they are in now if they stayed with the Tier 1 plans instead of doing cost cut Honda tied "smart luxury".

The Lexus IS/GS/RC are all Tier 1 competitive, the GS sold well its first 3 years, creaming the RLX(still beats it every month) before the bad update, 4cyl, raising price on 6 cylinder, no more good lease deals. IS has been a pretty consistent seller, used to beat the TLX consistently while costing more, RC still does pretty well in the coupe segment and at least Lexus offers 2 sub 100K coupes.

It is not that hard to make a big improvement over the previous RDX nor is it as hard to make a good entry level SUV on a FWD trans platform. Sedans and coupes are a very different story, the success of the RDX is very unlikely to translate into the success of a TLX or RLX just like the success of the MDX has not come close to translating to a successful RLX.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 13:05
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Nick GravesX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
What I understand is the V6t models will use Rear Bias SH-AWD with 10AT.

Sport Hybrid......There will be a new eSH-AWD(TMUII or in Wheel eMotors).It will be for the front wheels,all the ICE power will go to the rear wheels.TLX will not get this.Will need wider Chassis.



TMU:

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-automobiles/releases/2017-acura-nsx-press-kit-power-unit?page=2

Scroll down to the pictures of the TMU, search for "Twin Motor Unit".

So, I still wonder that the clutch does in the mechanical TMU. It looks like you would operate declutched and for torque transfer you would engage one regen brake on one side and use that electricity to power the motor on the other side. That way, one side (attempts to) rotates faster than the other, hence torque is transferred.

I'd figure the only time you'd clutch both sides would be under straight line acceleration when both wheels are turning at the same rpm.




IIRC, it's for higher speed torque transfer, when the e-motors have given up. A sort of PassiveTTS rather than an ActiveTTS, as there's no power involved.



But you can also use it effectively under braking and turning conditions when you want to slow down but still transfer torque, huh?

You use regen to slow the inside rear tire while you take that energy and shift it to the outside tire.

It's only "passive" in terms that it doesn't use the ICE as in SH-AWD nor the powertrain/generator in eSH-AWD.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 14:00
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lexusgs wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Thereís always going to be a debate between FWD and RWD here and thatís clearly understandable, however....having RWD alone doesnít automatically mean instant success here. Of course most all of Mercedes and BMW products are RWD based but are these cars selling for only that reason or just their badge power? Audi has proven that RWD isnít a necessity when it comes to the luxury segment as theyíve more than doubled their annual sales volume here in the US since 2012 and have been gaining more and more traction ever since. Theyíve surpassed Acuraís annual sales by at least 50k units a year which is pretty damn substantial. It took them a few generations of product to get there (starting with the 1997 Audi A4) but they finally found their right path to their destination.

So no, RWD platforms ALONE doesnít mean instant success as Infiniti sales are below Acuraís and the Lexus IS/GS/RC arenít really moving any real volume either and never have consistently. The largest factors in my eyes are final product execution, styling execution, performance and fresh infotainment technology. Those attributes attract buyers and Acura hasnít had a successful sedan that met all the criteria since the 3G Acura TL.

Given many publications have said the 2019 RDX is the best product from Acura since the 3G TL, gives me hope as it seems theyíve finally got some direction in regards to the attributes and the criteria I mentioned above. Itís been getting great reviews this far and thereís a higher performance Type-S in the works. Hopefully, the upcoming TLX and next gen MDX will be even more impressive as I think Acura has finally got some engineering going on.


RWD does not guarantee success but it is basically the main ingredient to be successful in the luxury/performance market.

BMW and Mercedes would have no badge power if they built cars based on FWD platforms and never had a engine larger then a 6 cylinder, they would be Saab.

For the millionth time Audi has struggled in the US market with FWD/AWD but they at least put their products on premium long FWD platforms to make them more competitive. Audi also has a much bigger lineup then Acura or many competitors, Audi has 8, 10, 12 cylinders, a real flagship sedan, don't cost cut and hold back on everything, have 400+hp performance models of just about every car they make while Acura has a very small lineup, its car lineup is arguably the worst it has ever been, and they would not be in the position they are in now if they stayed with the Tier 1 plans instead of doing cost cut Honda tied "smart luxury".

The Lexus IS/GS/RC are all Tier 1 competitive, the GS sold well its first 3 years, creaming the RLX(still beats it every month) before the bad update, 4cyl, raising price on 6 cylinder, no more good lease deals. IS has been a pretty consistent seller, used to beat the TLX consistently while costing more, RC still does pretty well in the coupe segment and at least Lexus offers 2 sub 100K coupes.

It is not that hard to make a big improvement over the previous RDX nor is it as hard to make a good entry level SUV on a FWD trans platform. Sedans and coupes are a very different story, the success of the RDX is very unlikely to translate into the success of a TLX or RLX just like the success of the MDX has not come close to translating to a successful RLX.




Please provide data where the IS used to be the TLX consistently. I checked the monthly and yearly sales figures for the TLX vs IS and in 2015 the TLX outsold the IS, in 2016 the IS outsold the TLX by less than 500 units, and in 2017 the TLX outsold the IS by several thousand units. Moreover, since the TLX launched its new design in spring, 2017 (for the 2018 TLX), the TLX has expanded its lead on the IS significantly and has outsold the IS by over 12,000 units from April 2017 until the present time. More proof that design matters more than FWD vs RWD architecture.

Impossible Dream
Profile for Impossible Dream
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 17:36
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lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 18:30
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Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



Very well said....I thought it was just me wondering about the pattern of posts.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 19:03
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bnilhome wrote:
Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



Very well said....I thought it was just me wondering about the pattern of posts.



That really is a well-worded summation.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 20:04
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我的雷克萨斯汽车让我看起来很好,而我的叮叮声大。

即使我不知道如何驾驶,也不知道汽车是如何工作的。

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 20:59
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Nick GravesX wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



Very well said....I thought it was just me wondering about the pattern of posts.



That really is a well-worded summation.



I guess he drives a Lexus GS, but he likes to hang out with us!

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 21:09
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If the reaction to the new RDX is anything to go by, I think Acura is on to something and if a similar formula is applied to the TLX, itís highly probable that Acura will be well-positioned going forward.

It makes sense to make the most significant models from a volume perspective the starting point for an overhaul and that would be the RDX on the SUV side/the TLX on the sedan side.

The way platforms are being done these days, it would be quite viable to spin off variants from those two models to round out the line-up. Go a size smaller and one larger for each of the RDX/TLX, conjure up Type S versions all the way around, and you have a significant product mix.

Despite Acura not being a global brand, if you spread the best aspects of the well-received 3rd Gen RDX, throughout the line-up, a business case can be made for developing a few Acura-exclusive bits and pieces.

For the first time in quite a few years, thereís reason to think Acuraís management finally has a grip on what itís going to take to carve out a decent niche in the up-market space.

Itís going to be revealing when the next TLX emerges. If the reaction to it mirrors what is happening with the new RDX, rumours of Acuraís demise will most certainly have been greatly exaggerated.


bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 21:32
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CarmB wrote:
If the reaction to the new RDX is anything to go by, I think Acura is on to something and if a similar formula is applied to the TLX, itís highly probable that Acura will be well-positioned going forward.

It makes sense to make the most significant models from a volume perspective the starting point for an overhaul and that would be the RDX on the SUV side/the TLX on the sedan side.

The way platforms are being done these days, it would be quite viable to spin off variants from those two models to round out the line-up. Go a size smaller and one larger for each of the RDX/TLX, conjure up Type S versions all the way around, and you have a significant product mix.

Despite Acura not being a global brand, if you spread the best aspects of the well-received 3rd Gen RDX, throughout the line-up, a business case can be made for developing a few Acura-exclusive bits and pieces.

For the first time in quite a few years, thereís reason to think Acuraís management finally has a grip on what itís going to take to carve out a decent niche in the up-market space.

Itís going to be revealing when the next TLX emerges. If the reaction to it mirrors what is happening with the new RDX, rumours of Acuraís demise will most certainly have been greatly exaggerated.




Acura really has a flurry of new vehicles to get out soon....the RLX and MDX are both due for replacements, and it sounds like the TLX also may be coming soon. I also think Acura needs one more SUV slotted below the RDX due to market demand (CDX variation). And if they want a true flagship slotted above the RLX (perhaps the Precision concept), that can come out as well in the next 2 years. :)

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 01:05
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Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



It is no script, just facts.

See, I try to just go by facts instead of blind brand loyalty or trying to put a nice spin on the same thing over and over again that is not working and is not going to work.

I called out the "smart luxury" bullshit as soon as I read what they were doing, said it was nothing more then half assing your luxury cars, cost cutting them, and making them even more Honda+ then before and it was not going to work. I called out the 2 screen touchscreen as being a terrible solution and something that would infuriate many owners.

The facts are the RLX is a last place failure/embarrassment for Acura. I called what would happen the first time I saw the concept, first time I read what platform and power plant it would have, the first time I saw the interior. I kept saying, kept arguing with some that thought it would do just fine and the mythical hybrid would save the day and turn it into a 5 series killer.

I said the ILX would be a dud and embarrassment and would take away prestige from the Acura brand and that is exactly what it did. Called out the Acura marketer who actually tried to say the ILX was a Lexus IS competitor.

When many were gushing over the TLX concept I knew by looking at it that it did not have good proportions and once you took away the rims, lowered car, ground kit, paint, and other concept tack on's it would be a rather bland car with a cheapened interior. I also said it would not be a big hit and more mid pack. I argued with several people but I turned out to be right.

I also called out that they could not use a J series in the new NSX and rely on the hybrid system for too much power because it won't be competitive and it needs a long layout with a bespoke engine, this was before it was ever announced they were moving it to long and using a bespoke engine.

I have said the CRZ, Insight, and Crosstour would all be failures and argued with many about that.

I have repeatedly said Acura can not compete in the mid/upper levels on FWD trans Accord platforms and J series 6 cylinders, hybrids, electrics, and awd won't help either. I have also called out other moves by other brands that won't work.

I am by no means a expert, I just generally know the market, and generally know what works and won't. I don't like being right about Acura either when it comes to them failing and not succeeding and disappointing their fans. I was a big defender of Acura, I still like the brand and I see potential if they get their heads out of their asses but I can not be silent on the mistakes they keep making over and over, they never learn.

Honda is rumored to follow this site, I hope they finally start to listen to people outside their circle instead of just the normal board room meetings where they keep convincing themselves that Acura can do just fine being Honda+ or adding a needlessly complicated powertrain band aid to a family sedan platform.

Simply doing a RWD platform won't make Acura a overnight success but it would be a big deal and solve most of their problems, I don't think Honda/Acura is stupid enough to finally do a RWD platform but then just give them cost cut interiors, use hold over Honda powerplants, style them just like FWD trans vehicles, or price them way too high.

As for Lexus, Infiniti, Caddilac, and Jaguar, they have their hits and misses, Lexus is the only one to really be successful, they are not at the level of BMW, Merc, or even Audi in many ways but what they have done has worked in most cases. Infiniti, Caddy, and Jag have all had their major troubles in the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Jag piss poor reliability and quality, Caddy piss poor reliability and quality and vehicles that only appealed to older buyers, Infiniti with a horrible marketing campaign and start for their brand and some bad cars but they have made major improvements over the years and then some mis steps but they have potential if they iron out the issues. Caddy put out good efforts in driving dynamics and somewhat in exterior design but interiors are still poor, cue is awful, prices too high, confusing lineup hierarchy, powertrains needed work, etc.

Genesis has potential and I think if they execute right they are going to be a brand that will give Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti a lot of headaches in the future and a brand many of their buyers will move to more and more.

I nor anyone here has to explain themselves for being on this open to anyone site nor will I, I have owned Honda/Acura products in the past, I grew up in Honda's/Acura's since I was in grade school, my first car was a Honda and I have been a fan and followed the brands enthusiastically since I was in grade school. Unfortunately for the past 15 years or so there has not been any Acura I would buy or own, close was a 2nd Gen RL and 3rd Gen TL Type S(can't afford a new NSX) but Lexus ultimately tempted and will likely in the future along with Genesis if Acura keeps doing the FWD trans family sedan thing.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 01:41
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Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



You are cherry picking parts of the years long ACA though.

1) Lexus is every bit as established and respected as BMW, Merc or Audi. They don't play in as many segments, and they don't go as high with their product, but they sure do succeed in the same segments at the same average transaction prices. Other than the ES, their car line is 100% RWD based.

Infiniti and Acura don't because they have both made bad choices, and where you are correct about LexusGS's rants is that a brand has to be consistently competitive and build its reputation over time. Acura was well on their way, but floundered. Infiniti never really made it and while they were starting to get noticed with the G and other products at the time, they botched it with low quality and then crapped on the driving dynamics, which pretty much mooted the point.

Cadillac was also gaining until the since fired DeNesschen (or however you spell it) raised their prices too much too fast and then changed the name of everything to be the same, so it was too confusing (the same thing he did at Infiniti BTW).

And you are right that RWD isn't solely the requirement, but factual data also supports that long term it doesn't help. As more of the "I don't care" people transition into SUV's, it has become an even bigger differentiator.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 04:52
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If it were easy, everyone would be doing it right.

Look at how Jaguar has floundered, despite world-class planks and beautiful design. They still haven't quite nailed it, apparently.

Maybe one day, Acura will have built the volume to justify a truly exclusive inline plank. But with a damaged image and all this 'disruptive tech' around the corner, I can understand why they have chosen this route.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 08:15
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lexusgs wrote:
Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



It is no script, just facts.

See, I try to just go by facts instead of blind brand loyalty or trying to put a nice spin on the same thing over and over again that is not working and is not going to work.

I called out the "smart luxury" bullshit as soon as I read what they were doing, said it was nothing more then half assing your luxury cars, cost cutting them, and making them even more Honda+ then before and it was not going to work. I called out the 2 screen touchscreen as being a terrible solution and something that would infuriate many owners.

The facts are the RLX is a last place failure/embarrassment for Acura. I called what would happen the first time I saw the concept, first time I read what platform and power plant it would have, the first time I saw the interior. I kept saying, kept arguing with some that thought it would do just fine and the mythical hybrid would save the day and turn it into a 5 series killer.

I said the ILX would be a dud and embarrassment and would take away prestige from the Acura brand and that is exactly what it did. Called out the Acura marketer who actually tried to say the ILX was a Lexus IS competitor.

When many were gushing over the TLX concept I knew by looking at it that it did not have good proportions and once you took away the rims, lowered car, ground kit, paint, and other concept tack on's it would be a rather bland car with a cheapened interior. I also said it would not be a big hit and more mid pack. I argued with several people but I turned out to be right.

I also called out that they could not use a J series in the new NSX and rely on the hybrid system for too much power because it won't be competitive and it needs a long layout with a bespoke engine, this was before it was ever announced they were moving it to long and using a bespoke engine.

I have said the CRZ, Insight, and Crosstour would all be failures and argued with many about that.

I have repeatedly said Acura can not compete in the mid/upper levels on FWD trans Accord platforms and J series 6 cylinders, hybrids, electrics, and awd won't help either. I have also called out other moves by other brands that won't work.

I am by no means a expert, I just generally know the market, and generally know what works and won't. I don't like being right about Acura either when it comes to them failing and not succeeding and disappointing their fans. I was a big defender of Acura, I still like the brand and I see potential if they get their heads out of their asses but I can not be silent on the mistakes they keep making over and over, they never learn.

Honda is rumored to follow this site, I hope they finally start to listen to people outside their circle instead of just the normal board room meetings where they keep convincing themselves that Acura can do just fine being Honda+ or adding a needlessly complicated powertrain band aid to a family sedan platform.

Simply doing a RWD platform won't make Acura a overnight success but it would be a big deal and solve most of their problems, I don't think Honda/Acura is stupid enough to finally do a RWD platform but then just give them cost cut interiors, use hold over Honda powerplants, style them just like FWD trans vehicles, or price them way too high.

As for Lexus, Infiniti, Caddilac, and Jaguar, they have their hits and misses, Lexus is the only one to really be successful, they are not at the level of BMW, Merc, or even Audi in many ways but what they have done has worked in most cases. Infiniti, Caddy, and Jag have all had their major troubles in the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Jag piss poor reliability and quality, Caddy piss poor reliability and quality and vehicles that only appealed to older buyers, Infiniti with a horrible marketing campaign and start for their brand and some bad cars but they have made major improvements over the years and then some mis steps but they have potential if they iron out the issues. Caddy put out good efforts in driving dynamics and somewhat in exterior design but interiors are still poor, cue is awful, prices too high, confusing lineup hierarchy, powertrains needed work, etc.

Genesis has potential and I think if they execute right they are going to be a brand that will give Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti a lot of headaches in the future and a brand many of their buyers will move to more and more.

I nor anyone here has to explain themselves for being on this open to anyone site nor will I, I have owned Honda/Acura products in the past, I grew up in Honda's/Acura's since I was in grade school, my first car was a Honda and I have been a fan and followed the brands enthusiastically since I was in grade school. Unfortunately for the past 15 years or so there has not been any Acura I would buy or own, close was a 2nd Gen RL and 3rd Gen TL Type S(can't afford a new NSX) but Lexus ultimately tempted and will likely in the future along with Genesis if Acura keeps doing the FWD trans family sedan thing.




If you are truly using facts, you still have not replied to several facts I have laid out in this thread and the TLX Mule thread, including your claim that the Lexus IS "consistently" outsells the TLX. I provided data points showing its actually been the opposite, but have not yet seen where you were getting your facts from.

As for Honda listening to this site, it appears that 20% of this site may agree with you that a RWD architecture is a must have for vehicles to be a success, while most others are saying there are many more important factors than FWD vs. RWD. If that one aspect of a vehicle is so important to you, and if Acura has no plans of moving in that direction, why do you invest so much time on here bashing Acura. Just accept it's how the brand is and move on.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 10:30
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owequitit wrote:
Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



You are cherry picking parts of the years long ACA though.

1) Lexus is every bit as established and respected as BMW, Merc or Audi. They don't play in as many segments, and they don't go as high with their product, but they sure do succeed in the same segments at the same average transaction prices. Other than the ES, their car line is 100% RWD based.

Infiniti and Acura don't because they have both made bad choices, and where you are correct about LexusGS's rants is that a brand has to be consistently competitive and build its reputation over time. Acura was well on their way, but floundered. Infiniti never really made it and while they were starting to get noticed with the G and other products at the time, they botched it with low quality and then crapped on the driving dynamics, which pretty much mooted the point.

Cadillac was also gaining until the since fired DeNesschen (or however you spell it) raised their prices too much too fast and then changed the name of everything to be the same, so it was too confusing (the same thing he did at Infiniti BTW).

And you are right that RWD isn't solely the requirement, but factual data also supports that long term it doesn't help. As more of the "I don't care" people transition into SUV's, it has become an even bigger differentiator.



Lexus has respect but certainly the sales numbers paints a different narrative. The ES is currently the #2 seller in its class, topped only by the C-class (but eclipsing everyone else). By the way, the #3 seller in the class is the Audi A4.

What are their other top 3 sellers? The NX and RX.

Nick GravesX
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 10:33
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Facts are a bit inconvenient;

Of course Lexus outsells; it's a global brand and it has the ever-so-successful ES in the US, which splits up the IS and GS sales a bit.

So the TLX isn't that bad in the US, but has been a disaster so far everywhere else.

Thus, the ACA spins and spins
See how fast the bastard turns...


lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 16:11
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Nick GravesX wrote:
If it were easy, everyone would be doing it right.

Look at how Jaguar has floundered, despite world-class planks and beautiful design. They still haven't quite nailed it, apparently.

Maybe one day, Acura will have built the volume to justify a truly exclusive inline plank. But with a damaged image and all this 'disruptive tech' around the corner, I can understand why they have chosen this route.



Decades of expensive, piss poor unreliable, and poorly built products will anger so many buyers and create a negative stereotype that beautiful designs and good planks is unlikely enough, it still takes time. Their cars still have unacceptable issues to this day like most British cars.

People look at a Jaguar sedan and say it is nice but does not blow them away, interiors are only okay now and a bit dated, and they think it is still not enough to over come poor reliability, big depreciation, and cars that literally fall apart as you own them. With the F type coupe more buyers may be able to look past the piss poor reliability because it is so good looking and drives so well which is why it has been a decent hit for Jag. Then there is the newer Jag XE that for some reason they decided to give it a shitty interior that is well below the rest of the lineup/competitors and that has stopped it from being a hit.

Acura has/had plenty of volume to justify a exclusive RWD platform and it would solve so many problems and do so much for a mid level and flagship sedan or possibly coupe/coupes.

The good thing about Acura is they don't have a history of awful reliability and pissing off their customer base over the decades like Caddy, Jaguar, Alfa, Lincoln, and Audi to a an extent so they would be in better shape if they did finally come out with a great Tier 1 platform and cars on it. Acura mainly has to re build a image of offering mediocre too Honda tied vehicles that did not necessarily make customers angry and swear off the brand unlike Jag, Caddy, Alfa, and some others that made customers so furious and run to other brands because they were so trouble prone. Even Audi still suffers from past extremely unreliable cars and fiasco's that are hard to shake.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 00:55
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Impossible Dream wrote:
lexusgs, sorry, but as a casual member I have to say, you have the same script and rant every time in every thread... I'm surprised you're not tired of saying the same thing over and over again...

If the formula was so easy, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Cadillac would all be dominant players in the luxury market... They all follow your exact formula of success and yet, they all struggle to break into the top Tier market, aside from Lexus, who still isn't seen as the same level as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi... So you have to at least recognize that it's not as simple as having RWD "exclusive" planks...

Cadillac put in a solid concerted effort to change the brand, from design to driving dynamics, mimicking the Germans in many ways and how well did that help them? As an enthusiast, I totally applaud their efforts, but somehow, the general buying public just didn't buy into it...

Let's also wait and see how Genesis goes as well... But there is no way that it is simply the fact that a RWD platform is the sole difference as you allude to every so diligently... Yes, it may make a difference, but styling, brand cache, and some other intangibles (which car companies have spent billions on trying to find) have absolutely a huge difference...

Also, I'm still trying to figure out your angle... you comment on this board incessantly yet I've never heard you talk about your history with Honda/Acura brands, and what drives you to be a contributor to this site.... Do you even own a Honda product?



You are cherry picking parts of the years long ACA though.

1) Lexus is every bit as established and respected as BMW, Merc or Audi. They don't play in as many segments, and they don't go as high with their product, but they sure do succeed in the same segments at the same average transaction prices. Other than the ES, their car line is 100% RWD based.

Infiniti and Acura don't because they have both made bad choices, and where you are correct about LexusGS's rants is that a brand has to be consistently competitive and build its reputation over time. Acura was well on their way, but floundered. Infiniti never really made it and while they were starting to get noticed with the G and other products at the time, they botched it with low quality and then crapped on the driving dynamics, which pretty much mooted the point.

Cadillac was also gaining until the since fired DeNesschen (or however you spell it) raised their prices too much too fast and then changed the name of everything to be the same, so it was too confusing (the same thing he did at Infiniti BTW).

And you are right that RWD isn't solely the requirement, but factual data also supports that long term it doesn't help. As more of the "I don't care" people transition into SUV's, it has become an even bigger differentiator.



Lexus has respect but certainly the sales numbers paints a different narrative. The ES is currently the #2 seller in its class, topped only by the C-class (but eclipsing everyone else). By the way, the #3 seller in the class is the Audi A4.

What are their other top 3 sellers? The NX and RX.



To be fair, I did acknowledge the ES, which is well known to be a good seller, so I didn't specifically mention it.

That said, Lexus' reputation wasn't based on the ES. It was originally based on the LS, and then the GS and then the IS. The ES was the car for people who didn't care about anything other than features and badge, since it was in essence a gussied up Camry as much as the TL was a gussied up Accord.

Ironically, the ES is a prime example of Acura's problem. It is a well rounded car but isn't the Lexus that people "aspire" to own. It was always the car that people bought partly because it was relatively cheaper for what you got (vs the IS which was much smaller and the GS which was much more expensive).

Perhaps part of Lexus' brilliance was having models that people lusted after and one that many of them could actually afford.

As for the SUV's that also illustrates my point going forward in the market. The boomers are probably going to disproportionately favor sedans compared to younger generations, which are going to gravitate toward SUV's for everyday use. That means the ones that DO buy a sedan are going to focus more on the things a sedan (coupe) can supply that an SUV can't.




owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 01:22
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Nick GravesX wrote:
If it were easy, everyone would be doing it right.

Look at how Jaguar has floundered, despite world-class planks and beautiful design. They still haven't quite nailed it, apparently.

Maybe one day, Acura will have built the volume to justify a truly exclusive inline plank. But with a damaged image and all this 'disruptive tech' around the corner, I can understand why they have chosen this route.



To be fair, Jaguar is still ranked at the bottom of most quality surveys, so that may have more than a little bit to do with it.

That said Jaguar has had well known quality issues with FREDS, since...well, forever, so that probably makes a lot of potential buyers leary when they see such things on modern quality surveys. I know it does with me. They have also not nailed some of the vital aspects of the market, such as their V6 being a little bit cobby compared to the competition.

Those are both issues that Acura typically hasn't had.

It would be a bit like saying nobody wants any Italian cars because Alfa's sales were bad in the 80's and aren't good now. Ironically, I see Alfa's literally everywhere around here, so I guess if you are going to buy one, our dealers will at least be experienced with how to fix them! ;)

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 02:47
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owequitit wrote:

It would be a bit like saying nobody wants any Italian cars because Alfa's sales were bad in the 80's and aren't good now. Ironically, I see Alfa's literally everywhere around here, so I guess if you are going to buy one, our dealers will at least be experienced with how to fix them! ;)



Which would be an improvement over twenty years ago. A friend was the Service Manager for the Alfa Romeo dealership in town. He mentioned to me a real issue was having the Alfa's delivered off the boat with interior parts and/or accessories missing. That meant there was always one or two cars sitting at the rear of the dealership awaiting replacement parts to arrive from Italy, which was a bonus in some ways as they always had mechanical spare parts for the cars that were actually sold, ready to hand. The dealership relinquished the Alfa franchise not too long after.........



Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 04:35
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owequitit wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
If it were easy, everyone would be doing it right.

Look at how Jaguar has floundered, despite world-class planks and beautiful design. They still haven't quite nailed it, apparently.

Maybe one day, Acura will have built the volume to justify a truly exclusive inline plank. But with a damaged image and all this 'disruptive tech' around the corner, I can understand why they have chosen this route.



To be fair, Jaguar is still ranked at the bottom of most quality surveys, so that may have more than a little bit to do with it.

That said Jaguar has had well known quality issues with FREDS, since...well, forever, so that probably makes a lot of potential buyers leary when they see such things on modern quality surveys. I know it does with me. They have also not nailed some of the vital aspects of the market, such as their V6 being a little bit cobby compared to the competition.

Those are both issues that Acura typically hasn't had.

It would be a bit like saying nobody wants any Italian cars because Alfa's sales were bad in the 80's and aren't good now. Ironically, I see Alfa's literally everywhere around here, so I guess if you are going to buy one, our dealers will at least be experienced with how to fix them! ;)



Let's hope so, anyway!

I share your reliability concerns, but it seems unlikely I'd be given the opportunity to choose a TLXX over an XE or Giulia.

Like Jaguar, ALFA has taken steps to fix the dire FRED issues of its new cars. But market perception lags reality.

Though both really need to up their game on such issues and Jaguar's Ingenium straight-six cannot come soon enough.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 08:25
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owequitit wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
If it were easy, everyone would be doing it right.

Look at how Jaguar has floundered, despite world-class planks and beautiful design. They still haven't quite nailed it, apparently.

Maybe one day, Acura will have built the volume to justify a truly exclusive inline plank. But with a damaged image and all this 'disruptive tech' around the corner, I can understand why they have chosen this route.



To be fair, Jaguar is still ranked at the bottom of most quality surveys, so that may have more than a little bit to do with it.

That said Jaguar has had well known quality issues with FREDS, since...well, forever, so that probably makes a lot of potential buyers leary when they see such things on modern quality surveys. I know it does with me. They have also not nailed some of the vital aspects of the market, such as their V6 being a little bit cobby compared to the competition.

Those are both issues that Acura typically hasn't had.

It would be a bit like saying nobody wants any Italian cars because Alfa's sales were bad in the 80's and aren't good now. Ironically, I see Alfa's literally everywhere around here, so I guess if you are going to buy one, our dealers will at least be experienced with how to fix them! ;)


They are now building a dedicated facility for the Alfa Romeo franchise down the road, and they have 56 of them available.

Perhaps the Millenials will look at Alfa with an open mind and without the memories some of us might have of seeing the sad, rusting Alfa's lying by the side of the roads in the 70's and 80's, before they left the U.S. market with their tail between their legs.

CarPhreakD
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 09:13
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Yeah, unlike a lot of you guys (and I'm not really that young, in my 30s now), I have zero memories of Alfa's first attempts in North America. So really, we don't have any brand history to go off of, other than internet memes. I think the bigger problem right now is that amongst millenials, it's still not a really well known brand.

I've been seeing quite a few Stelvios and a few Giulias in my region, but a lot of those are employee lease specials.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 09:35
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, unlike a lot of you guys (and I'm not really that young, in my 30s now), I have zero memories of Alfa's first attempts in North America. So really, we don't have any brand history to go off of, other than internet memes. I think the bigger problem right now is that amongst millenials, it's still not a really well known brand.

I've been seeing quite a few Stelvios and a few Giulias in my region, but a lot of those are employee lease specials.



So I guess you're too young to remember the Alfa Spider Veloces that were sold here? Those things were notoriously unreliable and from my recollection they seemed to offer terrible build quality and poor overall fit and finish.


 
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