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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda

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Dren
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Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 14:00
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I don't get the impression that Red Bull will be as demanding from reading Newey's book. I think they'll ask if Honda can do such and such and work with them to achieve the end goal. From what I've read, Mclaren laid out certain parameters and told Honda to meet them. I think Red Bull could definitely be vocal if Honda unleash an under powered, unreliable turd of a PU. Based on this year's PU, I don't see that happening.
Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 15:08
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Potenza wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Sure, they were blowing up engines, but from all we've read they were also constrained by an impossible and disrespectful partner requirements.
Remember on the 2nd day of testing, McLaren spent most of the day not running because of an exhaust issue. Boullier said "We didn't have the reliability we had hoped for in winter testing, but all the issues we faced have since been addressed back at the factory." Then in Melbourne FP1 they had another exhaust issue. And now in Canada Alonso retired because of an apparent exhaust issue. Boullier says, "Although very frustrating, itís an unusual problem, and one that we donít expect to affect us going forward." Mmhmm

Meanwhile: Abiteboul said Renault's new engine did exactly what it was supposed to do in Canada, and it also showed good reliability over the six cars. "I stopped breathing for a moment when I saw Alonso complaining about his ERS," he said. "But I understand it was another problem [not a Renault part]."

So once again it is the McLaren team/chassis/integration that is the issue and not the PU itself. Except while Honda accepted all the blame in silence, Renault is speaking up to point out when the retirements are not their fault!


Yeah this has been discussed extensively but while it's true that McLaren spent a lot of time throwing Honda under the bus, Honda's inability to work with its partner or at least be vocal about what it needs and its apparent misgivings also shoulders a large amount of the blame.

Integration of chassis and engine is not a trivial thing- if Honda didn't think it would work, they should have said so

My point was not really the throwing Honda under the bus part. Rather that now McLaren is having issues with the Renault PU in some ways like they had with the Honda PU - issues that we can now see aren't entirely down to just the PU (despite being PU-related issues). Perhaps part of Honda's silence is that they very much considered each issue to be their own fault. Whereas Renault has two other teams to compare to. So when the PU overheats, Renault is able to say it's just McLaren - neither the Renault Sport nor Red Bull is overheating; and when the exhaust breaks, Renault is able to say it's just McLaren, as the exhaust isn't breaking on either the Renault Sport or Red Bull.

Yes Honda had plenty of issues for those 3 years - but perhaps they would have had less had they been with Williams or Toro Rosso or Force India, etc. And the picture would have been clearer had they supplied more than one team.

Just as the McLaren picture is now more clear, with Renault. Surely Renault don't find chassis integration a trivial thing. So perhaps McLaren is not taking Renault's advice and just going their own (best?) way. And perhaps that was their approach with Honda, as well. You keep mentioning "be vocal" and "speak up", but I have no reason to believe a racing team such as Honda was not giving constant input. My comment about being silent was rather referring to not defending themselves in the media - whereas Renault are defending themselves.

The Honda PU issues are well documented and not denied - but becoming history. The bigger issue that is not going away is of McLaren being entirely lost regarding both problems and fixes, as I wrote of the recurring exhaust issue.

April 2017:
Boullier: "I donít believe it is a car build problem but we canít find whatís wrongÖ We can do two laps or we can do two days [worth of running]."

June 2018:
Patience broke earlier in the week when racing director Eric Boullier led the usual post-race debrief in the Woking factory at which it was admitted they were at a loss to explain the carís lack of performance.

Vxtec
Profile for Vxtec
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 16:47
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Well, finally we have a winning chassis for Honda to provide the power unit! The challenge for both Red Bull and Honda is just beginning...

Nevertheless, Red Bull has now had the opportunity to analyse the data from both Renault and Honda upgrades (from their introductions at the Montreal GP), examined all other 'engineering' aspects/potentials and confidently decided to go with Honda. They are aware of the debacle and flawed strategies/mistakes by McLaren during their period of using Honda PUs and less than ideal collaboration between them. More importantly, their aware and have learnt much through, and be guided by, the experience of their sister team, STR, as to how to effectively/productively/successfully work together with Honda, and also how to relay and promote their partnership with Honda through the broad media channels and to the wider public for the benefit of both in the partnership.

AND, Honda always likes/cherishes a challenge! Aptly described by their motto "Power of Dreams'!


So, yes, as expressed in some of the posted messages, there are some reservations and apprehensions...it's only natural at the start of any new partnership...however, I have a feeling, beyond just hope, that this partnership will be great for both Red Bull and Honda...and bring them, within a reasonable timeframe (most likely within the next couple of years), at least the Driver's or Constructor's championships or both, which they both desire!


Hopefully now, we will hear good news, very soon, of Daniel Ricciardo signing up for a multi-year contract with Red Bull! I still believe, it will be a mistake for him to go to Ferrari (notwithstanding the fact that he has beaten Vettel when their were driving in the same team at RB)!


Then there will be (at least) double the reasons for huge celebrations during the next few weeks...even more so if Toro Rosso-Honda starts to consistently qualify in the top 10 and collect a swag of points in the next few races! Yeah! :-)

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 22:29
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Rolled, if you know Wazari from the F1 Technical forums, tell him I'm sorry that those forum members have insulted him enough to upset him. Please invite him to join us here, as I'm sure any tidbit of background information he can divulge would be greatly appreciated by us here.
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 06:31
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sadlerau wrote:
Rolled, if you know Wazari from the F1 Technical forums, tell him I'm sorry that those forum members have insulted him enough to upset him. Please invite him to join us here, as I'm sure any tidbit of background information he can divulge would be greatly appreciated by us here.


Agreed. He gets berated there by a few rancid members.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 08:25
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Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.
BG
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Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 09:22
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Mitsuru is very welcome here, though reading his latest post he has more concerning personal matters to attend to.

Rolled can get all the info from him if they remain in contact.


sadlerau
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Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 10:10
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Dren wrote:
Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.


If the offer were true, it indicates Alonso will be in Indycars next year. As for Ricciardo, I can't imagine any amount of money would entice him to climb into that car?

MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 11:10
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sadlerau wrote:
Dren wrote:
Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.


If the offer were true, it indicates Alonso will be in Indycars next year. As for Ricciardo, I can't imagine any amount of money would entice him to climb into that car?



Isn't that part of what F1 drivers do, chase the big bucks. Their career will be over someday and even if they still will make money it DOES seem that most drivers prefer to retire with 200Musd on the bank account rather than 30Musd... (making up the numbers).

So while everyone wants to win, if Riccardo knows financially it's the hands-down best option for his future, I do he does anything.

Would Vettel go to Williams if he were paid 5x he makes today? Yes, I think so...


BUT I could be oh so wrong :)

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 11:26
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While I can see the drivers wanting money, I'd figure most would give up some of that for championships.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 11:27
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MarkR wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Dren wrote:
Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.


If the offer were true, it indicates Alonso will be in Indycars next year. As for Ricciardo, I can't imagine any amount of money would entice him to climb into that car?



Isn't that part of what F1 drivers do, chase the big bucks. Their career will be over someday and even if they still will make money it DOES seem that most drivers prefer to retire with 200Musd on the bank account rather than 30Musd... (making up the numbers).

So while everyone wants to win, if Riccardo knows financially it's the hands-down best option for his future, I do he does anything.

Would Vettel go to Williams if he were paid 5x he makes today? Yes, I think so...


BUT I could be oh so wrong :)

I tend to think that at some point enough money is enough money, and you would rather win.

Put otherwise, I think those that end up winning do it for the sake of it, nor money. At some point it becomes very hard to keep motivated by adding zeros to your account. Of course, that doesn't mean any of them would do it for free, but then money is more a way of recognizing the prowess than the goal per se. Better get a ton of money if you don't win than not, and better get more money while wining than not, but ultimately better win than getting more money when you are already getting a ton of it.

That is at least the way I see it.

Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 13:51
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sadlerau wrote:
Dren wrote:
Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.
If the offer were true, it indicates Alonso will be in Indycars next year. As for Ricciardo, I can't imagine any amount of money would entice him to climb into that car?

Yeah, does he really want to set himself up for the amount of joy that Alonso has been having? It's not just soul-crushing, it's sport-crushing, as Alonso doesn't even want to be in F1 anymore.

DR compares it to Hamilton joining Mercedes, but I think that's just fluff to keep interest high at McLaren. DR has to see the difference - Mercedes being former Brawn, having Schumacher help develop, being a factory team... whereas McLaren is a customer team and no recent history of success or reason to believe they are on the way up. Boullier admits they are clueless. Renault Sport would be a way better bet. A seat swap with Sainz would be the better deal for DR. Though if the goal is winning a championship, Red Bull is still the quickest safest bet apart from Ferrari and Merc. Methinks this is all just a means of negotiating Red Bull money.

Ferrari has cheaper Leclerc. Merc lineup won't change.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 14:04
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danielgr wrote:
MarkR wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Dren wrote:
Rumor is Ricciardo got a $20mil/year offer from Mclaren. I hope he doesn't chase the $$$. I don't think he will leave RB.


If the offer were true, it indicates Alonso will be in Indycars next year. As for Ricciardo, I can't imagine any amount of money would entice him to climb into that car?



Isn't that part of what F1 drivers do, chase the big bucks. Their career will be over someday and even if they still will make money it DOES seem that most drivers prefer to retire with 200Musd on the bank account rather than 30Musd... (making up the numbers).

So while everyone wants to win, if Riccardo knows financially it's the hands-down best option for his future, I do he does anything.

Would Vettel go to Williams if he were paid 5x he makes today? Yes, I think so...


BUT I could be oh so wrong :)

I tend to think that at some point enough money is enough money, and you would rather win.

Put otherwise, I think those that end up winning do it for the sake of it, nor money. At some point it becomes very hard to keep motivated by adding zeros to your account. Of course, that doesn't mean any of them would do it for free, but then money is more a way of recognizing the prowess than the goal per se. Better get a ton of money if you don't win than not, and better get more money while wining than not, but ultimately better win than getting more money when you are already getting a ton of it.

That is at least the way I see it.


Putting some of the pieces together... With McLaren supposedly offering $20M/yr, freeing up that much money when they 1. don't have Honda money 2. are paying "severance" and 3. now pay for their engine supply should tell us they aren't counting on Alonso being there next year. And I'm sure Ricciardo can bring sponsors to McLaren but the way Red Bull is set up the team does more of that than individual drivers bringing them so I don't think he's entering negotiations with a long list of offsetting money he brings to the table (I could be wrong).


gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 14:08
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^ BTW I think it would be a hugely risky move for RIC and I wouldn't recommend it. That post was to illustrate what McLaren's current state could be.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 19:27
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Autosport is claiming Ferrari look like going to Leclerc as Raikkonen's replacement as early as 2019. Looks like Ricciardo will be staying at Red Bull?
HondaJet
Profile for HondaJet
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 20:31
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Potenza wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Sure, they were blowing up engines, but from all we've read they were also constrained by an impossible and disrespectful partner requirements.
Remember on the 2nd day of testing, McLaren spent most of the day not running because of an exhaust issue. Boullier said "We didn't have the reliability we had hoped for in winter testing, but all the issues we faced have since been addressed back at the factory." Then in Melbourne FP1 they had another exhaust issue. And now in Canada Alonso retired because of an apparent exhaust issue. Boullier says, "Although very frustrating, itís an unusual problem, and one that we donít expect to affect us going forward." Mmhmm

Meanwhile: Abiteboul said Renault's new engine did exactly what it was supposed to do in Canada, and it also showed good reliability over the six cars. "I stopped breathing for a moment when I saw Alonso complaining about his ERS," he said. "But I understand it was another problem [not a Renault part]."

So once again it is the McLaren team/chassis/integration that is the issue and not the PU itself. Except while Honda accepted all the blame in silence, Renault is speaking up to point out when the retirements are not their fault!


Thank you for putting the puzzle together!!! Thatís why we alll admire Hondaís sportsmanship, even though sometimes you wish they would just speak out whatís really going on.


jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 20:41
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HondaJet wrote:
Thank you for putting the puzzle together!!! Thatís why we alll admire Hondaís sportsmanship, even though sometimes you wish they would just speak out whatís really going on.




Even ignoring sportsmanship, Renault is a known factor with a recent history of good performance. Honda was coming back from a decade hiatus after a poor stint as a factory team. When Renault says it today, they have weight behind their words. If Honda spoke up last year, it would be just be perceived as: has-been-Honda throwing shade at their partner in order to distract from poor Honda performance. Mclaren was coming off of a successful (in terms of race wins) relationship with Mercedes Benz.

IntegraDC5R
Profile for IntegraDC5R
Re: Autobild report: Red Bull switching to Honda    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 23:33
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They had no race wins in '14 and basically lucked into the 2 podiums in Australia and come end of the year even though 5th in the Championship, were just the 4th fastest Mercedes powered team. That team has really been on the downwards spiral for well over a decade. They haven't been a winning constructor in 2 decades and their wins in the last decade probably have more to do with who was piloting the cars versus any McLaren magic. Since Hamilton left after the '12 season, they have 0 wins and 0 pole positions. So the final 2 years with Mercedes power they accomplished absolutely nothing. Those that are McLaren fans seem to neglect that fact and pinpointed so much blame at Honda those 3 years (albeit a good amount was indeed warranted), yet no fault to Mercedes those final 2 seasons and currently no fault towards Renault. It could have been so more in the open if Honda had a 2nd team during at least 1 of the 3 years hamstrung with McLaren :P.


 
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