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TOV Forums > Political Lounge > > Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug

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MalcolmR
Profile for MalcolmR
Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 07:45
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https://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/motoring/us-magazine-consumer-reports-slams-elon-musks-tesla-model-3/news-story/9c8d27987006efe7c718f207d9f51b96?utm_source=The%20Australian&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_content=TodaySHeadlines
US magazine Consumer Reports slams Elon Musk’s Tesla Model 3

Influential US magazine Consumer Reports has declined to recommend Tesla’s Model 3 sedan just as Elon Musk’s company battles to reverse production shortfalls.
AAP 10:50AM May 22, 2018

Influential US magazine Consumer Reports has declined to recommend Tesla’s Model 3 sedan, saying it braked slower than a full-sized pickup truck.

The car is seen as crucial to the electric car company’s profitability at a time when it is battling to reverse production shortfalls, confronting reports of crashes involving its vehicles and facing increased scepticism over its finances.

Elon Musk, the billionaire founder and chief executive of Tesla, said that the fully-loaded Model 3, with all-wheel drive, a dual motor and a 499km range — but excluding its vaunted Autopilot feature — would cost $US78,000 ($A102,968) and “beat anything in its class on the track”.

The company has not yet begun to make the $US35,000 ($A46,000) base price version that Tesla originally claimed would make it a mass-market vehicle.

However, Consumer Reports declined to recommend the Model 3 and criticised it for having overly long stopping distances and a difficult-to-use centre touchscreen.

This photo provided by NBC Bay Area-KNTV shows a Tesla car after it was pulled from a pond near the city of San Ramon, Calif., on Monday, May 21, 2018. Authorities in the San Francisco Bay Area are investigating the death of a man after the Tesla car he was driving veered off a road, crashed through a fence and into a pond.

Consumer Reports America’s top product-testing magazine which provides an annual rating of vehicles sold in the United States, said even though its tests found plenty to like about the Model 3 and it was a thrill to drive, it had “big flaws.”

Tesla’s stopping distance of 46m when braking at 100 km per hour was “far worse” than any contemporary car tested by the magazine and about seven feet longer than the stopping distance of a Ford F-150 full-sized pickup, it said.

Tesla said its own testing had found braking distances of 133 feet on average using the 18” Michelin all season tyre, and as low as 126 feet with all tyres currently available.

Although it doesn’t happen often, Consumer Reports in the past has decided not to recommend vehicles based largely on long braking distances. Last year the magazine decided not to recommend the Hyundai Ioniq gas-electric hybrid car because of below-average braking. It took the car 144 feet to fully stop from 60 mph on dry pavement.


The magazine also said nearly all of the Model 3’s controls are on the centre touch screen direction with no gauges on the dashboard and few buttons inside the car. This forces drivers to take several steps to do simple tasks and can cause driver distraction, the magazine said.

The car also had a stiff ride and excessive wind noise at highway speeds, unlike competitors, Consumer Reports said.

The magazine said it took delivery of the Model 3 that it purchased on February 8, and it was the latest model available at the time.

A spokeswoman for Tesla said that its testing had found an average stopping distance of 133ft from 60mph. She added: “Tesla is uniquely positioned to address cases over time through over-the-air software updates and it continually does so to improve factors such as stopping distance.”

Shares in Tesla rose by 2.7 per cent yesterday to $US284.23 in afternoon trading, despite the magazine’s criticism

Meanwhile, a Tesla Model S sedan has crashed and killed the driver in the San Francisco Bay Area, one of a recent spate of crashes, some of which involved fire and some of which took place while the company’s semi-autonomous Autopilot technology was engaged.

In the latest case, the car launched off a rural county road into a nearby pond more than 60 feet from the road, state and local law enforcement said. Tesla said it did not yet know the facts and had not yet received data from the car, but was cooperating with local authorities.

AAP/Reuters, AP

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 12:21
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Still stops faster than a Tesla and is less likely to catch fire

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 20:28
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This issue was caused by a bug in the anti-lock brake system (ABS), which resulted in inconsistent braking results under repeated emergency stops.

Tesla patched the bug via an Over-the-Air update, which satisfied Consumer Reports in a retest of the Model 3:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

In CR’s initial review of the Model 3, testers noted that the EV’s 152 feet to stop from 60 mph was 7 feet longer than a Ford F-150 pickup’s stopping distance, and 25 feet longer than Tesla’s own Model X SUV’s. In retesting after the software update was downloaded, the sedan stopped in 133 feet from 60 mph, an improvement of 19 feet.

The new shorter distance is typical for a compact luxury car and matches the 133 feet that Tesla claims its own testing found, using the same tires as those on our Model 3.

The improved braking distances raised the Model 3’s Overall Score enough for the car to be recommended by CR


It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.

Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 21:08
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atomiclightbulb wrote:


Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.


Elon, Tesla and the Type 3 have over-promised and under-delivered.

That is their reality, and a losing one at that.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 21:12
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atomiclightbulb wrote:


Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.


Elon, Tesla and the
Model 3 have over-promised and under-delivered.

That is their reality, and a losing one at that.

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 21:49
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superchg2 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:


Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.


Elon, Tesla and the
Model 3 have over-promised and under-delivered.

That is their reality, and a losing one at that.



When Elon Musk founded SpaceX in 2002, he predicted that the company would send a satellite to orbit by the end of 2003. It took SpaceX until the end of 2008 to get a satellite into orbit. Along the way, they blew up multiple rockets. Today, SpaceX commands a huge % of the commercial launch market, with Falcon 9 rockets launching customer payloads every 2-3 weeks.

It was a similar story with Model S. Promised for 2010, delivered in 2012. Model X was promised for 2013, delivered in 2015. Musk does over-promise, but he has eventually delivered.

You might feel a little smug about Tesla's production (or lack thereof) of Model 3, but they've gone from 0 units/week to about 3500/week in the middle of this month. Tesla makes 2000 Model S/X week. In less than a year, they've more than doubled their weekly unit throughput. Don't count Tesla, or Musk out yet. Nothing is guaranteed, but people who have previously predicted Musk's failure in SpaceX and past Tesla products, have eaten crow.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 22:18
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
This issue was caused by a bug in the anti-lock brake system (ABS), which resulted in inconsistent braking results under repeated emergency stops.

Tesla patched the bug via an Over-the-Air update, which satisfied Consumer Reports in a retest of the Model 3:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

In CR’s initial review of the Model 3, testers noted that the EV’s 152 feet to stop from 60 mph was 7 feet longer than a Ford F-150 pickup’s stopping distance, and 25 feet longer than Tesla’s own Model X SUV’s. In retesting after the software update was downloaded, the sedan stopped in 133 feet from 60 mph, an improvement of 19 feet.

The new shorter distance is typical for a compact luxury car and matches the 133 feet that Tesla claims its own testing found, using the same tires as those on our Model 3.

The improved braking distances raised the Model 3’s Overall Score enough for the car to be recommended by CR


It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.

Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.



HATING? THIS kind of shit is a complete joke. If the "fix" was this easy, the car never should have hit the roads in that condition in the first place. How much regression testing was performed for this "fix"? This is pure shit R&D.

It's funny how Elon rails CR for being terrible and now he's thanking them for their amazing work.

qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 22:27
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atomiclightbulb wrote:

You might feel a little smug about Tesla's production (or lack thereof) of Model 3, but they've gone from 0 units/week to about 3500/week in the middle of this month. Tesla makes 2000 Model S/X week. In less than a year, they've more than doubled their weekly unit throughput. Don't count Tesla, or Musk out yet. Nothing is guaranteed, but people who have previously predicted Musk's failure in SpaceX and past Tesla products, have eaten crow.



atomiclightbulb wrote:

It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.




I think you are just trolling in this thread.

Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 23:25
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I agree with atomic, there is a ton of hate which just seems ridiculous to me, even when he is giving logical statements. Is the Tesla model 3 the perfect car? Far from it. Does Musk over promise endlessly and not deliver? Absolutely. Does all the success of the Tesla electric car endeavor deserve much credit? Yup.

First this firmware update was something that should not have needed to be done, it should of been done correctly the first time, not good Tesla. But lets not act like Tesla is the first vehicle to show up in peoples driveways that has a problem that needed to be fixed.

What makes me not like the Model 3 is the crazy ergonomic use of everything through a computer screen. Who wants all those bugs no one does, but really the bigger issue is that the computer with screen is so integral to everything you do as a daily driver it is just rife with potential issues. Computers have issues. I have used everything from Apple, to Win, to iphones, to current car interfaces, PS3, Wii, xbox, you name it every single one of them had issues where you had to reboot, or it got stuck on something or whatever. These are devices that have been around for ages, but you are not relying on them to drive 65 on a highway in the rain surrounded by other cars. Just reading about the Edmunds daily driver says it all. Not even to mention the usability during driving.

I think Tesla is currently offering the best BEV out there IMO and I think they have pushed the industry in this direction big time which in my mind is a great thing.

Tesla has issues and there is a lot of hate and there is a lot of fandom, all of these things can be true. I still find it illogical to hate on Tesla or those who act like Tesla can do no wrong.

B.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-30-2018 23:44
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JeffX wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
This issue was caused by a bug in the anti-lock brake system (ABS), which resulted in inconsistent braking results under repeated emergency stops.

Tesla patched the bug via an Over-the-Air update, which satisfied Consumer Reports in a retest of the Model 3:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

In CR’s initial review of the Model 3, testers noted that the EV’s 152 feet to stop from 60 mph was 7 feet longer than a Ford F-150 pickup’s stopping distance, and 25 feet longer than Tesla’s own Model X SUV’s. In retesting after the software update was downloaded, the sedan stopped in 133 feet from 60 mph, an improvement of 19 feet.

The new shorter distance is typical for a compact luxury car and matches the 133 feet that Tesla claims its own testing found, using the same tires as those on our Model 3.

The improved braking distances raised the Model 3’s Overall Score enough for the car to be recommended by CR


It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.

Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.



HATING? THIS kind of shit is a complete joke. If the "fix" was this easy, the car never should have hit the roads in that condition in the first place. How much regression testing was performed for this "fix"? This is pure shit R&D.

It's funny how Elon rails CR for being terrible and now he's thanking them for their amazing work.



Look at all this hating by Forbes
Forbes: Tesla's Rapid Braking Software Update Is Great, But Hides More Fundamental Problems

As a product development engineer, I spent 17 years working on electronic slip control systems including ABS, traction and stability control. For any given vehicle program we typically spent anywhere from 12 to 18 months testing multiple vehicles with all of the available combinations of braking and suspension hardware and tires. These tests were run on a broad range of surfaces including asphalt, wet ceramic and basalt tiles, powdered and pack snow, glare ice, and various combinations. We went from the heat of Arizona and Florida to the frozen reaches of northern Minnesota and Sweden.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 00:54
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:


Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.


Elon, Tesla and the
Model 3 have over-promised and under-delivered.

That is their reality, and a losing one at that.



When Elon Musk founded SpaceX in 2002, he predicted that the company would send a satellite to orbit by the end of 2003. It took SpaceX until the end of 2008 to get a satellite into orbit. Along the way, they blew up multiple rockets. Today, SpaceX commands a huge % of the commercial launch market, with Falcon 9 rockets launching customer payloads every 2-3 weeks.

It was a similar story with Model S. Promised for 2010, delivered in 2012. Model X was promised for 2013, delivered in 2015. Musk does over-promise, but he has eventually delivered.

You might feel a little smug about Tesla's production (or lack thereof) of Model 3, but they've gone from 0 units/week to about 3500/week in the middle of this month. Tesla makes 2000 Model S/X week. In less than a year, they've more than doubled their weekly unit throughput. Don't count Tesla, or Musk out yet. Nothing is guaranteed, but people who have previously predicted Musk's failure in SpaceX and past Tesla products, have eaten crow.



If it wasn't for NASA assigning him 2 contracts when they didn't really have to, SpaceX would have gone belly up. In fact, he has a couple of very strong allies in NASA that have done everything they can to ensure the success of SpaceX, so those predictions aren't totally off base because had things been just a tiny bit different, they would have nailed the money.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/without-nasa-there-would-be-no-spacex-and-its-brilliant-boat-landing/

That said, SpaceX does indeed enjoy a large market share today:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a27290/one-chart-spacex-dominate-rocket-launches/

Ironically, you continuously complain about my discussions on their launch safety record, but notice how their massive market share increase DIRECTLY coincides with them becoming a reliable launch provider, which really didn't happen until 2016.

The other note worth considering (since nobody can predict the future) is that companies like ULA and Arianespace are responding with new and economically improved rocket designs and reorganizations of their own. There is also the reality that SpaceX will see a 50% increase in cost on the next round of launch contracts, which will still make them cheapest of current providers, but not by nearly as much.

http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-nasa-launch-cost-increase-reasons-2020-2018-4

"[SpaceX] also indicated that their CRS-2 pricing reflected a better understanding of the costs involved after several years of experience with cargo resupply missions," the auditors wrote. (A SpaceX representative declined to comment on the report.)


Some of the increase is on NASA, but I found the above statement interesting.

So with a combination of SpaceX's increasing costs, and others' dropping costs, it will be interesting to see where the economic balancing point is.

There are also certain risks associated with SpaceX's fueling technique, which was pointed out in the thread regarding their safety record (this issue lead directly to the pre-launch explosion of their rocket and it's payload).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-nasa-spacex-rocket-elon-musk-20180505-story.html


But the approach comes with a major risk, according to some safety experts. At those extreme temperatures, the propellant would need to be loaded just before takeoff — while astronauts are aboard. An accident, or a spark, during this maneuver, known as "load-and-go," could set off an explosion.

The proposal has raised alarms for members of Congress and NASA safety advisers as the agency and SpaceX prepare to launch humans into orbit as early as this year. One watchdog group labeled load-and-go a "potential safety risk." A NASA advisory group warned in a letter that the method was "contrary to booster safety criteria that has been in place for over 50 years."

Concerns at NASA over the astronauts' safety hit a high point when, in September 2016, a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket blew up while it was being fueled ahead of an engine test. No one was hurt, but the payload, a multimillion-dollar satellite, was lost. The question on many people's minds at NASA instantly became: What if astronauts were on board?


This remains a major risk factor going forward, so it will be interesting to see how it develops, especially since the tolerance for manned space flight will be much less.

Also, nobody ever said that Musk wouldn't put a payload into space. However, it took him nearly an additional 5 years beyond what he said to do it and it took him another almost 10 years to be reliable at it.

To put this timeline into perspective, Project Mercury was formed in 1958, and by 1969 we had put men on the moon. Of course, you are going to take that as an attempt to diminish Musk, but it really isn't. It is a factual comparison of relevant timelines.

As for Tesla, the number of timeline revisions is simply ridiculous and really shows just how much of a grip on building cars they don't have.

You can also bandy on about how much they have increased production, but you keep forgetting to mention that they were SUPPOSED to be at 10,000 per week LAST YEAR. That was then dropped to 5,000 per week by LAST YEAR. You also forgot to mention that they were supposed to hit 2,500 per week by the end of LAST QUARTER, which they also missed. They are supposed to be at 5,000 per week by the end of June, and they are looking likely to miss that as well since they have already started moving that goal post down the road.

Fine and well, except for Musk's continual assertions that everyone else in the world is an "idiot" and can't achieve anything... If Honda missed production and profit targets like Telsa, they would have been crushed long ago.

As for people eating crow and counting Tesla and Musk out, that seems an awful lot like another one of your straw men. I don't recall anyone saying he wouldn't eventually succeed (given enough chances, anyone can succeed), but it has been clearly said that they have NOT delivered as promised multiple times (factually true) and they have a fair bit of increasing financial headwind (also factually true).

It has less to do with hate for Musk or Tesla and more to do with your blind fanaticism. In all 15 active threads or whatever it is.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 01:03
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Brutus wrote:
I agree with atomic, there is a ton of hate which just seems ridiculous to me, even when he is giving logical statements. Is the Tesla model 3 the perfect car? Far from it. Does Musk over promise endlessly and not deliver? Absolutely. Does all the success of the Tesla electric car endeavor deserve much credit? Yup.

First this firmware update was something that should not have needed to be done, it should of been done correctly the first time, not good Tesla. But lets not act like Tesla is the first vehicle to show up in peoples driveways that has a problem that needed to be fixed.

What makes me not like the Model 3 is the crazy ergonomic use of everything through a computer screen. Who wants all those bugs no one does, but really the bigger issue is that the computer with screen is so integral to everything you do as a daily driver it is just rife with potential issues. Computers have issues. I have used everything from Apple, to Win, to iphones, to current car interfaces, PS3, Wii, xbox, you name it every single one of them had issues where you had to reboot, or it got stuck on something or whatever. These are devices that have been around for ages, but you are not relying on them to drive 65 on a highway in the rain surrounded by other cars. Just reading about the Edmunds daily driver says it all. Not even to mention the usability during driving.

I think Tesla is currently offering the best BEV out there IMO and I think they have pushed the industry in this direction big time which in my mind is a great thing.

Tesla has issues and there is a lot of hate and there is a lot of fandom, all of these things can be true. I still find it illogical to hate on Tesla or those who act like Tesla can do no wrong.

B.



And yet, when presented with opposing logical viewpoints, he does the exact same thing and people of a certain shall we say "leaning" want to completely overlook it.

Let's put it this way. If Honda released a car that's autonomous system has repeatedly crashed into things or endangered people, they would be on the hook for billions of dollars. In fact, they were with Takata. Same with Toyota and their unintended acceleration (which was later found to not even be true), or Audi's same debacle in the 1980's which was also later found to be unrepeatable. And yet, Tesla is supposed to just get a pass because "these things happen."

Further, Honda gets the EXACT same treatment around here when they release horrendous product such as the RLX, ZDX, Crosstour, etc, not to mention being taken fully to task on their build quality issues. Tesla is no different, especially when Musk basically says that the rest of the industry is slow and stupid and he is just going waltz in and "do it better." And yet, he hasn't been able to. Perhaps there is a reason the established industry does things they way they do?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 01:08
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-driver-using-autopilot-mode-hits-police-car/

Elon Musk's tetchy mood of late is unlikely to be lightened by the latest report of a Tesla crash.

The Laguna Beach, California, police department said Tuesday a sedan made by the electric-car maker was in Autopilot mode when it crashed into one of its cruisers. The officer wasn't in the vehicle at the time of the incident, according to a tweet by the department. The Tesla driver, identified only as a 65-year-old man, sustained minor injuries.
Tesla (TSLA) has faced scrutiny in recent months for several accidents involving its cars, including instances where drivers had engaged the vehicle's Autopilot system. The crashes have been linked to two deaths and one injury, leading consumer groups to call for an investigation into the technology.

In one of the incidents earlier this month, a Tesla Model S in Autopilot mode hit a stopped firetruck in Salt Lake City, Utah. Car data taken after the crash showed that the driver, who suffered a broken ankle, did not touch the steering wheel for more than a minute before the crash. The 29-year-old motorist also told police she was checking her phone to compare different routes at the time of the accident.

Tesla has warned that its Autopilot system doesn't prevent all accidents.

"When using Autopilot, drivers are continuously reminded of their responsibility to keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of the vehicle at all times," the company said in a statement after Tuesday's crash. "Tesla has always been clear that Autopilot doesn't make the car impervious to all accidents, and before a driver can use Autopilot, they must accept a dialogue box which states that 'Autopilot is designed for use on highways that have a center divider and clear lane markings.'"

Musk last week accused the media of "holier-than-thou hypocrisy" and of misrepresenting the truth, while also saying he planned to launch a website where users can rate the credibility of journalists.

The CEO's attack followed reports that raised questions about Tesla's Model 3, which the automaker is counting on to help it crack the mass market. Production of the vehicle is behind schedule. After Consumer Reports declined to recommend the car, Musk last week acknowledged the Model 3 has braking problems and promised to fix the issue.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 07:07
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JeffX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
This issue was caused by a bug in the anti-lock brake system (ABS), which resulted in inconsistent braking results under repeated emergency stops.

Tesla patched the bug via an Over-the-Air update, which satisfied Consumer Reports in a retest of the Model 3:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

In CR’s initial review of the Model 3, testers noted that the EV’s 152 feet to stop from 60 mph was 7 feet longer than a Ford F-150 pickup’s stopping distance, and 25 feet longer than Tesla’s own Model X SUV’s. In retesting after the software update was downloaded, the sedan stopped in 133 feet from 60 mph, an improvement of 19 feet.

The new shorter distance is typical for a compact luxury car and matches the 133 feet that Tesla claims its own testing found, using the same tires as those on our Model 3.

The improved braking distances raised the Model 3’s Overall Score enough for the car to be recommended by CR


It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.

Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.



HATING? THIS kind of shit is a complete joke. If the "fix" was this easy, the car never should have hit the roads in that condition in the first place. How much regression testing was performed for this "fix"? This is pure shit R&D.

It's funny how Elon rails CR for being terrible and now he's thanking them for their amazing work.



Look at all this hating by Forbes
Forbes: Tesla's Rapid Braking Software Update Is Great, But Hides More Fundamental Problems

As a product development engineer, I spent 17 years working on electronic slip control systems including ABS, traction and stability control. For any given vehicle program we typically spent anywhere from 12 to 18 months testing multiple vehicles with all of the available combinations of braking and suspension hardware and tires. These tests were run on a broad range of surfaces including asphalt, wet ceramic and basalt tiles, powdered and pack snow, glare ice, and various combinations. We went from the heat of Arizona and Florida to the frozen reaches of northern Minnesota and Sweden.



I'm running two software patches on our MDX 9spd transmission at the moment. I'll give Tesla some slack for needing to fix an ABS control issue and then apparently fixing it in a matter of a few weeks. An improvement of 19-feet in the stopping distance noted now making it typical for cars of its class doesn't seem like the problem was a deal breaker to me. I guess I didn't drive a car with ABS daily until 2003 though.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 11:32
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If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 13:41
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
It is interesting that Tesla seems to generate so much hatred at ToV, and that people feel the need to bash Tesla on a Honda forum.

Keep on hating. The times are changing. People and companies can either adapt to new realities, or stay stuck in the past and be steamrolled by the future.



Book of Elon, chapter II, paragraph I

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 13:54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?



If CR hadn't said anything, someone would have plowed under a truck in front of them because of stopping distance and they would blame the driver. It is Tesla Rule One now, but I guarantee you that is going to turn the cult against itself eventually.

NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 14:26
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owequitit wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I agree with atomic, there is a ton of hate which just seems ridiculous to me, even when he is giving logical statements. Is the Tesla model 3 the perfect car? Far from it. Does Musk over promise endlessly and not deliver? Absolutely. Does all the success of the Tesla electric car endeavor deserve much credit? Yup.

First this firmware update was something that should not have needed to be done, it should of been done correctly the first time, not good Tesla. But lets not act like Tesla is the first vehicle to show up in peoples driveways that has a problem that needed to be fixed.

What makes me not like the Model 3 is the crazy ergonomic use of everything through a computer screen. Who wants all those bugs no one does, but really the bigger issue is that the computer with screen is so integral to everything you do as a daily driver it is just rife with potential issues. Computers have issues. I have used everything from Apple, to Win, to iphones, to current car interfaces, PS3, Wii, xbox, you name it every single one of them had issues where you had to reboot, or it got stuck on something or whatever. These are devices that have been around for ages, but you are not relying on them to drive 65 on a highway in the rain surrounded by other cars. Just reading about the Edmunds daily driver says it all. Not even to mention the usability during driving.

I think Tesla is currently offering the best BEV out there IMO and I think they have pushed the industry in this direction big time which in my mind is a great thing.

Tesla has issues and there is a lot of hate and there is a lot of fandom, all of these things can be true. I still find it illogical to hate on Tesla or those who act like Tesla can do no wrong.

B.



And yet, when presented with opposing logical viewpoints, he does the exact same thing and people of a certain shall we say "leaning" want to completely overlook it.

Let's put it this way. If Honda released a car that's autonomous system has repeatedly crashed into things or endangered people, they would be on the hook for billions of dollars. In fact, they were with Takata. Same with Toyota and their unintended acceleration (which was later found to not even be true), or Audi's same debacle in the 1980's which was also later found to be unrepeatable. And yet, Tesla is supposed to just get a pass because "these things happen."

Further, Honda gets the EXACT same treatment around here when they release horrendous product such as the RLX, ZDX, Crosstour, etc, not to mention being taken fully to task on their build quality issues. Tesla is no different, especially when Musk basically says that the rest of the industry is slow and stupid and he is just going waltz in and "do it better." And yet, he hasn't been able to. Perhaps there is a reason the established industry does things they way they do?


Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.

Nobody here lusts for another's failure.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 17:32
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CarPhreakD wrote:
If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?


Those are good questions but since no one here has legitimate answers for us the point is kind of moot.

I think the cars themselves are cool but I'm not any more of a fan of the hype than anyone else here. I will say I expect Tesla to be held to the same level of scrutiny as any other manufacturer. There were no rational answers from Toyota when its cars decided to take off at full-throttle on their own a few years ago. There were discussions here on TOV but I don't recall anyone grabbing their pitchforks or anything. The fact that Tesla acknowledged the braking problem and then went about fixing it using its own unique system for downloading upgrades to the cars is a big improvement over what Toyota did which was to more or less offer a new free maintenance package to its customers.

And there is no way of knowing if the software problem was detected before or after the cars affected were sold, if the problem affected all of the cars, what the conditions were when the problem was encountered, etc. My guess would be the ratio of regeneration to braking effort is determined by the software which received the upgrade. So they've traded some range for reduced panic stop distances. I don't think you can assume the high-speed panic stop scenario was never tested.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 17:47
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Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?


Those are good questions but since no one here has legitimate answers for us the point is kind of moot.

I think the cars themselves are cool but I'm not any more of a fan of the hype than anyone else here. I will say I expect Tesla to be held to the same level of scrutiny as any other manufacturer. There were no rational answers from Toyota when its cars decided to take off at full-throttle on their own a few years ago. There were discussions here on TOV but I don't recall anyone grabbing their pitchforks or anything. The fact that Tesla acknowledged the braking problem and then went about fixing it using its own unique system for downloading upgrades to the cars is a big improvement over what Toyota did which was to more or less offer a new free maintenance package to its customers.

And there is no way of knowing if the software problem was detected before or after the cars affected were sold, if the problem affected all of the cars, what the conditions were when the problem was encountered, etc. My guess would be the ratio of regeneration to braking effort is determined by the software which received the upgrade. So they've traded some range for reduced panic stop distances. I don't think you can assume the high-speed panic stop scenario was never tested.



The question isn't whether or not "OTA" updates are convenient. It's whether or not they're prudent and ultimately safe.

In this example, we have a car that was slapped together and rushed through the R&D cycle in order to hit some bullshit target production dates. These were dates that were completely irrational in the first place. And then it ended up missing these dates by and large. So now you have the situation where production is WAY behind schedule and the product is an unmitigated piece of shit with all sorts of engineering flaws. And you're driving around in a car that randomly ramps the stereo volume up to max, or won't unlock the doors when you approach it, or the battery won't take a charge, or the panoramic roof cracks. Half of that shit can't be fixed over the air, but the other half, well you're stuck for possibly months waiting on a patch to come out over the air.

If you read the Forbes article that I linked, you'll see that brake systems are extremely complex. If you engineer them to excel at one test, they will very likely underperform under other circumstances. It's all about striking a balance. It's what engineering and development is all about.

Now think about what happens if this sudden "fix" ends up destroying braking performance under other real world circumstances. The results could be deadly and disastrous. No automotive company in their right minds would push this shit through with this level of "testing", OTA or not.

Also think about the implications when this network ends up getting hacked, and black hat types start screwing around with the code that controls the ABS computers, normal braking, throttle and steering controls. Not in my car.


THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 18:58
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NealX wrote:

Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.

Nobody here lusts for another's failure.



As always, Neal, you are a voice of reason!

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 19:08
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NealX wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.



NealX,

Ask yourself why MalcolmR writes so many negative posts about articles on Tesla.

Examples in this subforum alone:

Tesla - facts behind the mirage, Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322717

Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150
Posted by: MalcolmR
https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1357359

Tesla - poor quality and lies (Score: 1, Normal)
Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322885

And there are several more.


Then ask yourself why people like KaizenDo post juvenile graphics (example is right here in this thread, 2nd post) about Tesla. He's done this several times.



Nobody here lusts for another's failure.


You can speak for yourself, but it's pretty obvious to me that several people at ToV badly want Tesla to go out of business.

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-31-2018 19:27
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
NealX wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.



NealX,

Ask yourself why MalcolmR writes so many negative posts about articles on Tesla.

Examples in this subforum alone:

Tesla - facts behind the mirage, Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322717

Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150
Posted by: MalcolmR
https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1357359

Tesla - poor quality and lies (Score: 1, Normal)
Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322885

And there are several more.


Then ask yourself why people like KaizenDo post juvenile graphics (example is right here in this thread, 2nd post) about Tesla. He's done this several times.



Nobody here lusts for another's failure.


You can speak for yourself, but it's pretty obvious to me that several people at ToV badly want Tesla to go out of business.



Supposing all you say is true, why do you care?

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-01-2018 10:56
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JeffX wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?


Those are good questions but since no one here has legitimate answers for us the point is kind of moot.

I think the cars themselves are cool but I'm not any more of a fan of the hype than anyone else here. I will say I expect Tesla to be held to the same level of scrutiny as any other manufacturer. There were no rational answers from Toyota when its cars decided to take off at full-throttle on their own a few years ago. There were discussions here on TOV but I don't recall anyone grabbing their pitchforks or anything. The fact that Tesla acknowledged the braking problem and then went about fixing it using its own unique system for downloading upgrades to the cars is a big improvement over what Toyota did which was to more or less offer a new free maintenance package to its customers.

And there is no way of knowing if the software problem was detected before or after the cars affected were sold, if the problem affected all of the cars, what the conditions were when the problem was encountered, etc. My guess would be the ratio of regeneration to braking effort is determined by the software which received the upgrade. So they've traded some range for reduced panic stop distances. I don't think you can assume the high-speed panic stop scenario was never tested.



The question isn't whether or not "OTA" updates are convenient. It's whether or not they're prudent and ultimately safe.

In this example, we have a car that was slapped together and rushed through the R&D cycle in order to hit some bullshit target production dates. These were dates that were completely irrational in the first place. And then it ended up missing these dates by and large. So now you have the situation where production is WAY behind schedule and the product is an unmitigated piece of shit with all sorts of engineering flaws. And you're driving around in a car that randomly ramps the stereo volume up to max, or won't unlock the doors when you approach it, or the battery won't take a charge, or the panoramic roof cracks. Half of that shit can't be fixed over the air, but the other half, well you're stuck for possibly months waiting on a patch to come out over the air.

If you read the Forbes article that I linked, you'll see that brake systems are extremely complex. If you engineer them to excel at one test, they will very likely underperform under other circumstances. It's all about striking a balance. It's what engineering and development is all about.

Now think about what happens if this sudden "fix" ends up destroying braking performance under other real world circumstances. The results could be deadly and disastrous. No automotive company in their right minds would push this shit through with this level of "testing", OTA or not.

Also think about the implications when this network ends up getting hacked, and black hat types start screwing around with the code that controls the ABS computers, normal braking, throttle and steering controls. Not in my car.



Your points here are certainly valid. A person working in an engineering field is certainly aware of secondary effects often occurring due to engineering changes. I'm saying we can't know for certain what the process was that resulted in the cars being sold with longer than average braking distances and now Tesla claims to have solved the issue and updated its customers' cars.

It's a dead horse but the same logic must be applied to Takata and Honda. I had two of the three daily drivers in my fleet recalled for replacement air bags and there were no best solutions to choose from. We ended up driving the cars every day knowing the airbags might pose a problem in an accident. At first glance, it was easy to blame Takata, and therefore Honda, of gross negligence. The reality was more likely that Takata developed what it believed was a solution and then it took years of product being used on the road for them to determine they had failed. If we still owned our 7G Accord, we would have received the "do not drive" instruction from Honda too. As it was, our dealership held our RDX for six months after we traded it waiting for the replacement airbag.

The long term Tesla owner in my company (he bought his Model S maybe a month after it became available) has had nothing but good comments about Tesla's customer service. I've seen no evidence of negligence on Tesla's customer service part.

And I guess I don't see modern hybrid braking as anything but complex. Honda is still working on its F1 energy recovery tech. The Tesla braking+energy recovery design is by no means as complex but it's easy to see how they could get it wrong for the first few months of production. The first thought I had about the Model 3 braking distance issue was the delta percentage between the actual test results and the design specs along with the other cars similar in size and performance. If the defective braking performance was comparable to that of a similar car without ABS from the '80s or '90s, I don't see it as a make or break problem but rather a simple upgrade. I don't allow anyone to tailgate me in traffic, regardless of the age of their car. It required standardized tests in a controlled environment for anyone to determine the Model 3 had braking distance issues, at least from what I've read.

It's not a popular thing for me to say this but I think I've engaged ABS in a car on dry pavement just once in the last ten years which means I've been nowhere near the braking limit of our cars. I'm never going to choose a new car because it's at-limit braking distance is X% shorter than another car I'm considering. If the ABS braking distance of the Model 3 was really an issue I'd have to say it would be due to the adaptive cruise control systems in use now. Without the ABS and collision avoidance systems working together, a driver would just slam into the back of the car ahead and no one would notice.

I don't know what my thoughts are about over the air software updates. If the laptop I'm typing this on is any indication, as more updates are loaded the slower the software being patched will run. If NASA could upload significant chunks of vital software to the Apollo command module in 1969 certainly Tesla can upload complete packages to its cars and not just patches. Maybe the Tesla cars slamming into highway barriers will be found to have been hacked, who knows. I doubt that though after having spent some time with the lane keeping assist feature in our MDX.

By the way, this has been another interesting discussion on TOV. Thanks for that, as always.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-01-2018 11:22
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Grace141 wrote:
It's not a popular thing for me to say this but I think I've engaged ABS in a car on dry pavement just once in the last ten years which means I've been nowhere near the braking limit of our cars.


I have plenty, and my asshole might still be in my throat from the level of puckering I experienced just last week.

This isn't something you need until you need it, but I am going to go out on a limb here and assume stopping a car is important if you ever get in one.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-01-2018 14:54
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Takata is an extraordinarily bad take because the company has been caught fabricating evidence. It was never "gross negligence" the kind you'd see from say, the GM ignition switch recall, it was simply a blatant cover up.

In regards to "due diligence", it doesn't take years of R&D or field data for Tesla to perform a simple brake test at their enormous as hell dessert facility to find out that something is not working right. This isn't some sort of obscure edge case.

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-01-2018 20:49
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THX17201 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
NealX wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.



NealX,

Ask yourself why MalcolmR writes so many negative posts about articles on Tesla.

Examples in this subforum alone:

Tesla - facts behind the mirage, Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322717

Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150
Posted by: MalcolmR
https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1357359

Tesla - poor quality and lies (Score: 1, Normal)
Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322885

And there are several more.


Then ask yourself why people like KaizenDo post juvenile graphics (example is right here in this thread, 2nd post) about Tesla. He's done this several times.



Nobody here lusts for another's failure.


You can speak for yourself, but it's pretty obvious to me that several people at ToV badly want Tesla to go out of business.



Supposing all you say is true, why do you care?



I became a Honda enthusiast in the 1980's because Honda was a company that dared to challenge the establishment, take risks, and deliver inspiring products.

Somewhere along the line, that got lost.

Tesla has much of the same spirit and fight that I thought Honda used to have. They are pushing the boundaries. That's why I care.

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-01-2018 21:36
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
NealX wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.



NealX,

Ask yourself why MalcolmR writes so many negative posts about articles on Tesla.

Examples in this subforum alone:

Tesla - facts behind the mirage, Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322717

Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150
Posted by: MalcolmR
https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1357359

Tesla - poor quality and lies (Score: 1, Normal)
Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322885

And there are several more.


Then ask yourself why people like KaizenDo post juvenile graphics (example is right here in this thread, 2nd post) about Tesla. He's done this several times.



Nobody here lusts for another's failure.


You can speak for yourself, but it's pretty obvious to me that several people at ToV badly want Tesla to go out of business.



Supposing all you say is true, why do you care?



I became a Honda enthusiast in the 1980's because Honda was a company that dared to challenge the establishment, take risks, and deliver inspiring products.

Somewhere along the line, that got lost.

Tesla has much of the same spirit and fight that I thought Honda used to have. They are pushing the boundaries. That's why I care.



I'm not asking why you care about Tesla. I'm asking why you get all bent out of shape about what is said about Tesla on here?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-02-2018 00:08
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Grace141 wrote:
JeffX wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
If it's "fixed in a matter of weeks", why wasn't it implemented before the vehicle went out? This isn't some shift logic refinement issue, inconsistent braking that goes from "ok" to "among the worst in the current automotive landscape" can be hazardous. What if CR hadn't said anything? Why are other companies (and customers) doing Tesla's testing for them?

If only there was a way to test vehicles thoroughly before they hit production, maybe something like a Pilot build?


Those are good questions but since no one here has legitimate answers for us the point is kind of moot.

I think the cars themselves are cool but I'm not any more of a fan of the hype than anyone else here. I will say I expect Tesla to be held to the same level of scrutiny as any other manufacturer. There were no rational answers from Toyota when its cars decided to take off at full-throttle on their own a few years ago. There were discussions here on TOV but I don't recall anyone grabbing their pitchforks or anything. The fact that Tesla acknowledged the braking problem and then went about fixing it using its own unique system for downloading upgrades to the cars is a big improvement over what Toyota did which was to more or less offer a new free maintenance package to its customers.

And there is no way of knowing if the software problem was detected before or after the cars affected were sold, if the problem affected all of the cars, what the conditions were when the problem was encountered, etc. My guess would be the ratio of regeneration to braking effort is determined by the software which received the upgrade. So they've traded some range for reduced panic stop distances. I don't think you can assume the high-speed panic stop scenario was never tested.



The question isn't whether or not "OTA" updates are convenient. It's whether or not they're prudent and ultimately safe.

In this example, we have a car that was slapped together and rushed through the R&D cycle in order to hit some bullshit target production dates. These were dates that were completely irrational in the first place. And then it ended up missing these dates by and large. So now you have the situation where production is WAY behind schedule and the product is an unmitigated piece of shit with all sorts of engineering flaws. And you're driving around in a car that randomly ramps the stereo volume up to max, or won't unlock the doors when you approach it, or the battery won't take a charge, or the panoramic roof cracks. Half of that shit can't be fixed over the air, but the other half, well you're stuck for possibly months waiting on a patch to come out over the air.

If you read the Forbes article that I linked, you'll see that brake systems are extremely complex. If you engineer them to excel at one test, they will very likely underperform under other circumstances. It's all about striking a balance. It's what engineering and development is all about.

Now think about what happens if this sudden "fix" ends up destroying braking performance under other real world circumstances. The results could be deadly and disastrous. No automotive company in their right minds would push this shit through with this level of "testing", OTA or not.

Also think about the implications when this network ends up getting hacked, and black hat types start screwing around with the code that controls the ABS computers, normal braking, throttle and steering controls. Not in my car.



Your points here are certainly valid. A person working in an engineering field is certainly aware of secondary effects often occurring due to engineering changes. I'm saying we can't know for certain what the process was that resulted in the cars being sold with longer than average braking distances and now Tesla claims to have solved the issue and updated its customers' cars.

It's a dead horse but the same logic must be applied to Takata and Honda. I had two of the three daily drivers in my fleet recalled for replacement air bags and there were no best solutions to choose from. We ended up driving the cars every day knowing the airbags might pose a problem in an accident. At first glance, it was easy to blame Takata, and therefore Honda, of gross negligence. The reality was more likely that Takata developed what it believed was a solution and then it took years of product being used on the road for them to determine they had failed. If we still owned our 7G Accord, we would have received the "do not drive" instruction from Honda too. As it was, our dealership held our RDX for six months after we traded it waiting for the replacement airbag.

The long term Tesla owner in my company (he bought his Model S maybe a month after it became available) has had nothing but good comments about Tesla's customer service. I've seen no evidence of negligence on Tesla's customer service part.

And I guess I don't see modern hybrid braking as anything but complex. Honda is still working on its F1 energy recovery tech. The Tesla braking+energy recovery design is by no means as complex but it's easy to see how they could get it wrong for the first few months of production. The first thought I had about the Model 3 braking distance issue was the delta percentage between the actual test results and the design specs along with the other cars similar in size and performance. If the defective braking performance was comparable to that of a similar car without ABS from the '80s or '90s, I don't see it as a make or break problem but rather a simple upgrade. I don't allow anyone to tailgate me in traffic, regardless of the age of their car. It required standardized tests in a controlled environment for anyone to determine the Model 3 had braking distance issues, at least from what I've read.

It's not a popular thing for me to say this but I think I've engaged ABS in a car on dry pavement just once in the last ten years which means I've been nowhere near the braking limit of our cars. I'm never going to choose a new car because it's at-limit braking distance is X% shorter than another car I'm considering. If the ABS braking distance of the Model 3 was really an issue I'd have to say it would be due to the adaptive cruise control systems in use now. Without the ABS and collision avoidance systems working together, a driver would just slam into the back of the car ahead and no one would notice.

I don't know what my thoughts are about over the air software updates. If the laptop I'm typing this on is any indication, as more updates are loaded the slower the software being patched will run. If NASA could upload significant chunks of vital software to the Apollo command module in 1969 certainly Tesla can upload complete packages to its cars and not just patches. Maybe the Tesla cars slamming into highway barriers will be found to have been hacked, who knows. I doubt that though after having spent some time with the lane keeping assist feature in our MDX.

By the way, this has been another interesting discussion on TOV. Thanks for that, as always.



No Grace, I don't think you paid attention in the Takata articles.

Takata was grossly negligent with regard to their airbags. They KNEW there was an issue and they KNEW there was evidence they tried to cover up about the safety and stability of the propellant in their airbags. It was all a scheme to save $$ by essentially hoping the risk wouldn't materialize (even though they knew it would). In short, they put YOUR life, your families lives and my and my families lives on the line in the interest of their profit margin. Simple as that.

To some degree, Honda also knew it was an issue and it is going to end up costing Honda many billions that they thought they would get out of paying because, again, they hoped the risk wouldn't materialize. Honda could have spent the money on the more expensive airbags AND walked away richer had they not used the ammonium nitrate propellant. With effectively every such airbag going to have to be replaced in the next few years, it is going to cost them a lot more than it saved them, which is EXACTLY how it should be. I hope they lose their asses and it leaves an indelible reminder on their corporate ethos to not take such gambles in the future.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Tesla updates Model 3 firmware to address braking bug    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-02-2018 00:25
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
THX17201 wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
NealX wrote:
Honestly, I'm not seeing all of the "hate" that's being referred to - simply "increased scrutiny" of the same level applied to any make or model with suspect performance or safety claims.



NealX,

Ask yourself why MalcolmR writes so many negative posts about articles on Tesla.

Examples in this subforum alone:

Tesla - facts behind the mirage, Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322717

Want to stop faster than a Tesla Model 3? Get an F-150
Posted by: MalcolmR
https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1357359

Tesla - poor quality and lies (Score: 1, Normal)
Posted by: MalcolmR https://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1322885

And there are several more.


Then ask yourself why people like KaizenDo post juvenile graphics (example is right here in this thread, 2nd post) about Tesla. He's done this several times.



Nobody here lusts for another's failure.


You can speak for yourself, but it's pretty obvious to me that several people at ToV badly want Tesla to go out of business.



Supposing all you say is true, why do you care?



I became a Honda enthusiast in the 1980's because Honda was a company that dared to challenge the establishment, take risks, and deliver inspiring products.

Somewhere along the line, that got lost.

Tesla has much of the same spirit and fight that I thought Honda used to have. They are pushing the boundaries. That's why I care.



** Except that Honda hit engineering, quality and profitability goals which Tesla does not. It is one thing to build a game changing product and another to actually succeed doing it.

Don't forget that Soichiro Honda was about as 180* from Musk as you can get. He was a humble person that didn't give a shit about talk and only cared about results and he was a firm believer in letting the product talk for itself. No need to bellyache and brag.


 
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