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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test

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typer_801
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Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 15:58
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No surprises IMO, but read for yourself.

Article:
https://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-honda-civic-si-vs-2018-volkswagen-golf-gti-comparison-test

Scoring & Specs:
https://hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/files/hondacivicsi2017volkswagengti2018comparo-complete-specs-1524588330.pdf

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 16:17
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I drove the Civic Si, it wasn’t terrible but it was underwhelming as I recall. It’s a good car, but it’s no Si. Honda should’ve left the badge alone and let that be the Civic Sport in the non-Hatch Trims. And give the Hatch Sport the 205hp engine and LSD, and left the name “Sport”
99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 17:25
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Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 17:58
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99SI wrote:
Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.


The price differential would certainly give Honda the headroom to put a 250 hp 2.0T in the Si. Even at a $2500 premium it would still undercut the GTI by a lot (and it sounds like it needs to when you compare materials, etc.).

SC

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 20:42
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Typical bullshit from the Autoporn magazines... they have to make sure not to piss off the powers that send them on all of those wonderful junkets to exotic locations.

"...but we’d still like the Si to be more refined. If that makes it slightly more expensive, we’d consider it money well spent."

This is not a test, but a commercial for the VeeDub.

Bottom line, let's face it, the Civic Si is the better driver's car and a lot cheaper to boot.

The GTi is not a sport car anymore. For that, you likely have to spend a lot more.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 20:49
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99SI wrote:
Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.


Did you read the comparison or look at the scores?

It did not lose the competition because of the 1.5t.

99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 21:18
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Sure did. Reading between the lines this car is dynamically better than the GTI but slower in every regard. I could be wrong but I don't think folks buying a SI give a crap about all that other stuff. Having owned 2 SI's before that would be my take. The 1.5 is just not the right engine for the SI. Period...
notyper
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 21:40
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Fitdad wrote:
99SI wrote:
Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.


Did you read the comparison or look at the scores?

It did not lose the competition because of the 1.5t.



Well, that's not entirely true. It lost for a lot of reasons. The engine's lack of _relative_ performance was certainly one of them. I'm not saying it would have won with the 2.0T, but I think it would've been the clear peformance champ with that engine.

I think one quote sums it up pretty well:

The Civic was exceptional in the canyons, where the GTI was still quite good, nearly its equal. Everywhere else, doing everything else, however, the GTI is the better car.

The GTI is simply better balanced across the board (and for $4k-$8k more it had better be). But that's something Honda used to be really good at too.

SC



chhan02
Profile for chhan02
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 22:05
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I wonder if there's a 1.8T in the works for Honda. It would be a nice middle ground for the Si and small SUVs.

My take on this comparison:
From the points...remove some of the subjective categories, and the score should be closer. Take the "VEHICLE" section away, and it would be a tie.

Driver comfort: I found it equally good.
Ergonomics: The Si felt better to me because the shifter is nicely positioned. The GTI shifter is taller because it sits lower and higher seating position. Seats are both nice.
Cargo Space: The Civic only scored 1? I guess it's valid since it is a comparison. But the Civic is top of its class.
Features/Amenities: The GTI scored a perfect 10? Why? LaneWatch alone should have gave the Civic at least an 8...6 seems very low.

Everything else I can agree on. Civic Hatchback Si please.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 23:54
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99SI wrote:
Sure did. Reading between the lines this car is dynamically better than the GTI but slower in every regard. I could be wrong but I don't think folks buying a SI give a crap about all that other stuff. Having owned 2 SI's before that would be my take. The 1.5 is just not the right engine for the SI. Period...


Like Shawn said above, in this specific comparison having the 2.0t wouldn't have guaranteed a win here. Look at the point spread, down 13 points in the "vehicle" section, but only three in the powertrain section. Everything is weighted differently, but having the 2.0t would have given the Si either a tie or slight victory in the powertrain section but it would have still lost overall.

For this reviewer the GTI has a better interior, exterior, ergonomics, fit and finish etc. The Si gets the nod for the better chassis and better brake feel. Better controls and other elements that lead it to be a bit better for canyon carving. Despite how detestable the 1.5t is the Si is also rated more fun to drive. For this article, Honda would need to spend the money fixing ergonomics, cargospace, material quality, exterior styling etc. For the Si to win.

For me I'd rather have seen them put that money into getting the 2.0t in there to really put it overall the top. That's for me though.

From this review, if you want the quicker and better jack of all trades car that's more comfortable get the GTI. If you want the sharper handling, nimble, more overall performance focused car that's more fun to drive, get the Si.

If people agree with this comparison do they agree the Si is more fun to drive? Because that is what this review is saying as well. Depends on what one is looking for for sure.

Here's another recent comparo from a Canadian author:

www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/drive/reviews/new-cars/article-2018-honda-civic-si-coupe-vs-2018-volkswagen-gti-autobahn/

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 23:57
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Not sure if that link was working.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/drive/reviews/new-cars/article-2018-honda-civic-si-coupe-vs-2018-volkswagen-gti-autobahn/

Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2018 07:03
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notyper wrote: . . .
I think one quote sums it up pretty well:

The Civic was exceptional in the canyons, where the GTI was still quite good, nearly its equal. Everywhere else, doing everything else, however, the GTI is the better car.

The GTI is simply better balanced across the board (and for $4k-$8k more it had better be) . . .

FWIW, I agree. To which I would add that (probably owing to dieselgate) you have to work at paying more than $26k for a GTI (SE, Sport, take your pick). http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6982631-What-are-people-paying-thread

Price
Profile for Price
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2018 09:50
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notyper wrote:
99SI wrote:
Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.


The price differential would certainly give Honda the headroom to put a 250 hp 2.0T in the Si. Even at a $2500 premium it would still undercut the GTI by a lot (and it sounds like it needs to when you compare materials, etc.).

SC


For a $2500 premium over the GTI, I got a Type R. That is money well spent!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2018 17:28
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notyper wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
99SI wrote:
Easy fix for this. 2.0T. Doesn't have to be the 306hp version but even the tune of the Accord would do wonders. The character of the 1.5 just does not at all fit the car.


Did you read the comparison or look at the scores?

It did not lose the competition because of the 1.5t.



Well, that's not entirely true. It lost for a lot of reasons. The engine's lack of _relative_ performance was certainly one of them. I'm not saying it would have won with the 2.0T, but I think it would've been the clear peformance champ with that engine.

I think one quote sums it up pretty well:

The Civic was exceptional in the canyons, where the GTI was still quite good, nearly its equal. Everywhere else, doing everything else, however, the GTI is the better car.

The GTI is simply better balanced across the board (and for $4k-$8k more it had better be). But that's something Honda used to be really good at too.

SC





Let's face it... the Civic Si is no longer the top of the Civic range.

You got the CTR and the Touring.

I'd bet that a Civic Touring, with good tires and an understanding of how to use the CVT (yes, it is very possible) might actually do as well as the GTI in the test?

This Si is a strange bird.

Who knows, if the Si were placed above the Touring, with all the doodahs of the Touring, things might be quite different in this test.

Because, our Civic Touring Coupe is one heck of a nice car on the open road.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2018 18:09
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I think the main issue is the usage of the Si branding. Si used to be the top dog for the Civic range. Right now, there's the Type R. And not only that, the EX-L and Touring trims seem to be "better" than the Si.

I agree that for this specific comparo test, having the 2.0T wouldn't necessarily make the Si get a higher overall score, let alone beating the GTI.

The 2.0T only has an effect in the "Powertrain category."

Right now, the Si gets:
1/4-MILE: 17/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5
FUEL ECONOMY: 10/10
ENGINE NVH: 6/10
TRANSMISSION: 8/10
Total: 44/55

If it has the Accord's 2.0T which is more refined:
1/4-MILE: 20/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5 (same as GTI)
FUEL ECONOMY: 7/10 (same as GTI)
ENGINE NVH: 9/10 (same as GTI)
TRANSMISSION: 8/10 (no change)
Total: 47/55

With a better engine, it's pretty much guaranteed that the price will increase. Right now the Si has score of 20/20 for as tested price, whereas GTI is at 14/20. The Si with 2.0T will probably be right between the two in pricing, so 17/20.

So whatever advantage the 2.0T brings to the Si, the price score would be lower. And the 12 point gap is still there between the two cars.

IMO, the price gap is too big between the two, and the scoring system doesn't quite reflect that. To do well in this test, Honda would need to:

Increase the price for $5k - lose 6 points
Make a Si Hatch - increase cargo space by 4 points
Make the Si based on the touring trim - increase features by 4 points
2.0T - increase powertrain by 3 points and may be fun to drive factor by 2 points
Get the Type R brakes - increase brake feel by 2 points
Replace the infotainment system from the one in the Accord - increase ergonomics by 3 points

With these, then that would bring the Si on par with the GTI.




PolishedMetal6MT
Profile for PolishedMetal6MT
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2018 18:46
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The Civic Sport 6MT beat out the Golf Wolfsburg Edition in a C&D comparo. The Golf slightly priced higher than the Civic, but the correct matchup instead of this Si/GTI comparo.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 02:15
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I said it then, and I will say it now.

The Si needs two things in order to be on par with where it once was.

1) The better powertrain. People can try to equalize the 1.5T all they want, but the reality is that from every subjective metric it is INFERIOR to both the VW 2.0, but more importantly the HONDA 2.0T from the Accord. It doesn't sound good, it isn't smooth, it isn't particularly powerful, it revs like it is spinning a 60lb concrete flywheel, it doesn't make that much torque down low and it doesn't pull very high either.

People can spin MPG all they want, but the reality is that an Si buyer is far less worried about MPG than powertrain characteristics. Put that 1.5T in really intense summer heat, in traffic, and it is REALLY unresponsive.

People can argue that any point gain from the 2.0T would have been offset somewhere else, but the reality is that the SUBJECTIVE area increases would probably have more than offset that.

Which is a shame, because the SI chassis is really stellar and I would say above the GTI.

2) The feature set is on the low end compared to what a buyer can get in a GTI. I get that Honda has to be careful with the Type-R (which is also think is a bogus argument because there are a lot of other reasons to buy/not buy a Type-R), but the Si is lacking in a couple of areas. First the lack of leather option hurts to a degree and the shitty dishcloth fabric used in the current Si is no help in that regard. Second, the Si leaves a lot of other features on the table such as Xenon headlamps, power seats, etc.

The net result of that is the blowout lease deals you saw at the beginning of the year which will most likely be followed by reduced production in order to restrict supply so there aren't dozens of Si's littering up the lots.

The Si was Honda's opportunity to capture the character of the Type-R with ~70-80% of the performance, but in a much more drivable and less controversially styled package. They failed at that IMO.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 02:18
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TonyEX wrote:
Typical bullshit from the Autoporn magazines... they have to make sure not to piss off the powers that send them on all of those wonderful junkets to exotic locations.

"...but we’d still like the Si to be more refined. If that makes it slightly more expensive, we’d consider it money well spent."

This is not a test, but a commercial for the VeeDub.

Bottom line, let's face it, the Civic Si is the better driver's car and a lot cheaper to boot.

The GTi is not a sport car anymore. For that, you likely have to spend a lot more.



1) I still see an awful lot of Honda print in any given issue of C&D.

2) It wasn't that long ago that C&D was accused of being a print shill for Honda Tony.

3) It is time to call a spade a spade. VW has done an excellent job with the GTI, while Honda has done what they did with a lot of previously great products.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 11:52
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Hondarulez wrote:
I think the main issue is the usage of the Si branding. Si used to be the top dog for the Civic range. Right now, there's the Type R. And not only that, the EX-L and Touring trims seem to be "better" than the Si.

I agree that for this specific comparo test, having the 2.0T wouldn't necessarily make the Si get a higher overall score, let alone beating the GTI.

The 2.0T only has an effect in the "Powertrain category."

Right now, the Si gets:
1/4-MILE: 17/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5
FUEL ECONOMY: 10/10
ENGINE NVH: 6/10
TRANSMISSION: 8/10
Total: 44/55

If it has the Accord's 2.0T which is more refined:
1/4-MILE: 20/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5 (same as GTI)
FUEL ECONOMY: 7/10 (same as GTI)
ENGINE NVH: 9/10 (same as GTI)
TRANSMISSION: 8/10 (no change)
Total: 47/55

With a better engine, it's pretty much guaranteed that the price will increase. Right now the Si has score of 20/20 for as tested price, whereas GTI is at 14/20. The Si with 2.0T will probably be right between the two in pricing, so 17/20.

So whatever advantage the 2.0T brings to the Si, the price score would be lower. And the 12 point gap is still there between the two cars.

IMO, the price gap is too big between the two, and the scoring system doesn't quite reflect that. To do well in this test, Honda would need to:

Increase the price for $5k - lose 6 points
Make a Si Hatch - increase cargo space by 4 points
Make the Si based on the touring trim - increase features by 4 points
2.0T - increase powertrain by 3 points and may be fun to drive factor by 2 points
Get the Type R brakes - increase brake feel by 2 points
Replace the infotainment system from the one in the Accord - increase ergonomics by 3 points

With these, then that would bring the Si on par with the GTI.







Yeah man, I'm on board with a lot of what you are saying here. Honda had a goal with the Si that I don't think resonated with as many people as they would have liked. And you realized the powertrain change would not have changed the outcome of this specific comparo. In Canada our Si is closer to the touring trim than in the states because ours comes with stuff like LED headlights, wireless charging, rear heated seats etc. Feature-wise it is a bit better but the same basic car.

For me I would have preferred the hatchback as well and the 2.0T. The other things you mentioned would have probably bumped up the price quite a bit though. However, the pricing got me thinking a bit on what Honda could offer. As is, the Si undercuts a similarly equipped GTI by quite a bit. In Canada there is about a a 6-9k gap with options to make the GTI on par with what comes standard on the Si. But the GTI and ILX are priced very closely and I always saw the GTI as a higher end product that had materials and qualities that were closer to lux brands than Honda, Nissan, Ford level stuff.

If Honda was smart they could have a competitive product with the new ILX for example. Even if they increase the ILXs price a bit to account for the Type R powertrain and possible SHAWD, you could have a car with build quality and materials above the GTI for a similar to slightly more expensive price. It could still undercut the Type R's price with a slightly detuned engine maybe rated at 280 like the ILX. If I had to pay GTI money I'd much rather buy an Acura product over a Honda or a VW.

So Honda offers the Si as the introductory sporty car that is more fun to drive than the GTI with less quality materials for multiple thousands less. Despite being slower it can box with GTI and is more focused on performance and feel than comfort and refinement.

On the top of the Civic range you have the type R for performance well above the GTI but with crazy styling and a hard edge that may be difficult to live with day to day. Then instead of a GTI like comfortable/material quality Civic, you can get an Acura ILX hatch with the CTR powertrain (6MT option please) and possibly SHAWD as well. With a price not far off from the GTI. In Canada that could be possible since the ILX and GTI are priced so closely already. If Honda/Acura had this planned that would be my ideal scenario.

Give me an ILX-S that can take out competition from VW and Audi type products(GTI, Golf R, S3) for a competitive price. The Si can be fun to drive performance value that competes above its cost at an affordable price. And the type r can be the ultimate low compromise compact car performance to round out the portfolio.

ydnality
Profile for ydnality
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 15:28
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I've driven GTI's before. Honestly, the steering feel on my 2010 Fit is much more engaging and direct. That alone makes the GTI a no-go... I'm not sure why it's so hyped, when they can't even get the steering right...
ydnality
Profile for ydnality
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 15:31
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I've driven GTI's before. Honestly, the steering feel on my 2010 Fit is much more engaging and direct. That alone makes the GTI a no-go... I'm not sure why it's so hyped, when they can't even get the steering right...

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 17:26
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Typical bullshit from the Autoporn magazines... they have to make sure not to piss off the powers that send them on all of those wonderful junkets to exotic locations.

"...but we’d still like the Si to be more refined. If that makes it slightly more expensive, we’d consider it money well spent."

This is not a test, but a commercial for the VeeDub.

Bottom line, let's face it, the Civic Si is the better driver's car and a lot cheaper to boot.

The GTi is not a sport car anymore. For that, you likely have to spend a lot more.



1) I still see an awful lot of Honda print in any given issue of C&D.

2) It wasn't that long ago that C&D was accused of being a print shill for Honda Tony.

3) It is time to call a spade a spade. VW has done an excellent job with the GTI, while Honda has done what they did with a lot of previously great products.



The "print" ads are different from the junkets for the "journalists".

When was the last time AHM sent anyone to Portugal, Morocco, Southern Spain, the Riviera, etc... for a new car? The Germans do that.

Meanwhile, recall the 3rd gen TL was introduced in Kitsap Country, WA. IMHO a great junket to visit the family, but Poulsbo and Silverdale just don't match La Cote D'azur.

Yeah, the GTI is indeed a good car... my sister has the top of the line AWD version and it's a great car... Mostly a very fast Touring with a bunch of sport, but not really a sport car. She traded her 05 RSX-S for it because she wanted something more modern (no need for the cassette deck) and a bit bigger.

Anyways, IMHO, this C&D comparison doesn't make much sense given the price disparity, but the disappointment is that the American Autoporn magazines used to always choose the German car because of its pure sport pedigree... yet here is the opposite, they chose the German car for it Touring, not the sport.

Honestly...


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 17:58
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owequitit wrote:


I said it then, and I will say it now.

The Si needs two things in order to be on par with where it once was.

1) The better powertrain. People can try to equalize the 1.5T all they want, but the reality is that from every subjective metric it is INFERIOR to both the VW 2.0, but more importantly the HONDA 2.0T from the Accord. It doesn't sound good, it isn't smooth, it isn't particularly powerful, it revs like it is spinning a 60lb concrete flywheel, it doesn't make that much torque down low and it doesn't pull very high either.

People can spin MPG all they want, but the reality is that an Si buyer is far less worried about MPG than powertrain characteristics. Put that 1.5T in really intense summer heat, in traffic, and it is REALLY unresponsive.

People can argue that any point gain from the 2.0T would have been offset somewhere else, but the reality is that the SUBJECTIVE area increases would probably have more than offset that.

Which is a shame, because the SI chassis is really stellar and I would say above the GTI.

2) The feature set is on the low end compared to what a buyer can get in a GTI. I get that Honda has to be careful with the Type-R (which is also think is a bogus argument because there are a lot of other reasons to buy/not buy a Type-R), but the Si is lacking in a couple of areas. First the lack of leather option hurts to a degree and the shitty dishcloth fabric used in the current Si is no help in that regard. Second, the Si leaves a lot of other features on the table such as Xenon headlamps, power seats, etc.

The net result of that is the blowout lease deals you saw at the beginning of the year which will most likely be followed by reduced production in order to restrict supply so there aren't dozens of Si's littering up the lots.

The Si was Honda's opportunity to capture the character of the Type-R with ~70-80% of the performance, but in a much more drivable and less controversially styled package. They failed at that IMO.



You know, this is a circular argument.

This Si is not our Si, that's for sure. The closest would be the EP3 and yet that was the best outfitted Civic in its time too.

Now, however, the Touring Civic runs about $26K already. It would likely push it to $29K if they kept all the Touring niceties and then put a 250bhp 2.0T, 6MT, LSD, suspension, etc...

From an MSRP point of view, that puts it close to the CTR... but since CTRs are mostly vaporware, the Si would have sold very well and would have satisfied many of us. I mean, a $29K Si would not steal sales from a $35K vaporware CTR, huh?

rxtreme
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 22:29
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At least at the top of the Civic food chain...the type r remains the champ. The Focus RS...which is a fantastic beast and beat the Golf R and WRX STI...got edged out by the FWD Honda. An incredible feat if you look at the specs.

https://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-ford-focus-rs-vs-2017-honda-civic-type-r-comparison-test



6Speeds
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2018 23:46
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Why do Canadian-spec models in both Honda and Acura receive better package options that we Yanks? Have they more money than we? I want heated rear seats, headlight washers and warning lamps, premium trims with manual transmissions, real wood, and more advanced headlight tech... Why,why,why?
Hondarulez
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2018 02:49
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KaySee wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
I think the main issue is the usage of the Si branding. Si used to be the top dog for the Civic range. Right now, there's the Type R. And not only that, the EX-L and Touring trims seem to be "better" than the Si.

I agree that for this specific comparo test, having the 2.0T wouldn't necessarily make the Si get a higher overall score, let alone beating the GTI.

The 2.0T only has an effect in the "Powertrain category."

Right now, the Si gets:
1/4-MILE: 17/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5
FUEL ECONOMY: 10/10
ENGINE NVH: 6/10
TRANSMISSION: 8/10
Total: 44/55

If it has the Accord's 2.0T which is more refined:
1/4-MILE: 20/20
FLEXIBILITY: 3/5 (same as GTI)
FUEL ECONOMY: 7/10 (same as GTI)
ENGINE NVH: 9/10 (same as GTI)
TRANSMISSION: 8/10 (no change)
Total: 47/55

With a better engine, it's pretty much guaranteed that the price will increase. Right now the Si has score of 20/20 for as tested price, whereas GTI is at 14/20. The Si with 2.0T will probably be right between the two in pricing, so 17/20.

So whatever advantage the 2.0T brings to the Si, the price score would be lower. And the 12 point gap is still there between the two cars.

IMO, the price gap is too big between the two, and the scoring system doesn't quite reflect that. To do well in this test, Honda would need to:

Increase the price for $5k - lose 6 points
Make a Si Hatch - increase cargo space by 4 points
Make the Si based on the touring trim - increase features by 4 points
2.0T - increase powertrain by 3 points and may be fun to drive factor by 2 points
Get the Type R brakes - increase brake feel by 2 points
Replace the infotainment system from the one in the Accord - increase ergonomics by 3 points

With these, then that would bring the Si on par with the GTI.







Yeah man, I'm on board with a lot of what you are saying here. Honda had a goal with the Si that I don't think resonated with as many people as they would have liked. And you realized the powertrain change would not have changed the outcome of this specific comparo. In Canada our Si is closer to the touring trim than in the states because ours comes with stuff like LED headlights, wireless charging, rear heated seats etc. Feature-wise it is a bit better but the same basic car.

For me I would have preferred the hatchback as well and the 2.0T. The other things you mentioned would have probably bumped up the price quite a bit though. However, the pricing got me thinking a bit on what Honda could offer. As is, the Si undercuts a similarly equipped GTI by quite a bit. In Canada there is about a a 6-9k gap with options to make the GTI on par with what comes standard on the Si. But the GTI and ILX are priced very closely and I always saw the GTI as a higher end product that had materials and qualities that were closer to lux brands than Honda, Nissan, Ford level stuff.

If Honda was smart they could have a competitive product with the new ILX for example. Even if they increase the ILXs price a bit to account for the Type R powertrain and possible SHAWD, you could have a car with build quality and materials above the GTI for a similar to slightly more expensive price. It could still undercut the Type R's price with a slightly detuned engine maybe rated at 280 like the ILX. If I had to pay GTI money I'd much rather buy an Acura product over a Honda or a VW.

So Honda offers the Si as the introductory sporty car that is more fun to drive than the GTI with less quality materials for multiple thousands less. Despite being slower it can box with GTI and is more focused on performance and feel than comfort and refinement.

On the top of the Civic range you have the type R for performance well above the GTI but with crazy styling and a hard edge that may be difficult to live with day to day. Then instead of a GTI like comfortable/material quality Civic, you can get an Acura ILX hatch with the CTR powertrain (6MT option please) and possibly SHAWD as well. With a price not far off from the GTI. In Canada that could be possible since the ILX and GTI are priced so closely already. If Honda/Acura had this planned that would be my ideal scenario.

Give me an ILX-S that can take out competition from VW and Audi type products(GTI, Golf R, S3) for a competitive price. The Si can be fun to drive performance value that competes above its cost at an affordable price. And the type r can be the ultimate low compromise compact car performance to round out the portfolio.



Yea man I'm looking forward to the next gen ILX if it's here to stay, and hopefully a proper Type S model with what you mentioned. 2.0T SH-AWD would do well. You know, with the ILX A-spec being CAD $36k, if they make a Type S for $40k fully loaded, that's still pretty decent. A GTI Autobahn is already $39k in Canada.


None
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2018 11:02
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GTI is more of a competitor to Acura, not a Honda Civic.
notyper
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2018 12:40
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Except, as someone already noted in this thread, you can get a GTI for only $2-3k more than an SI here in the states. Actual transaction prices for both cars are much lower than MSRP.

Now, the Golf-R, yeah, that's more Acura. AWD, decent interior, higher price.

SC

rxtreme
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2018 20:06
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...but the same mag put the Civic type r ahead of the Golf r...even if it was an indirect comparison.
rxtreme
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Re: Civic Si vs GTI - latest C&D Comparison Test    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2018 20:07
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...but the same mag put the Civic type r ahead of the Golf r...even if it was an indirect comparison.

 
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