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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough

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longhorn
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2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 09:56
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https://www.motor1.com/reviews/239924/2019-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-first-drive/

My question to Notyper. Can you improve this? It's pretty much perfect, right?

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 10:12
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2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

ENGINE - Supercharged 6.2-Liter V8
OUTPUT - 755 Horsepower / 715 Pound-Feet
TRANSMISSION - 7-Speed Manual
DRIVE TYPE - Rear-Wheel Drive
0-60 MPH - 2.85 Seconds
TOP SPEED - 212 Miles Per Hour
WEIGHT - 3,560 Pounds
SEATING CAPACITY - 2
BASE PRICE - $121,000

Alrighty then...this thing is nuts.


rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 10:52
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Wowsers...🤯
The Legend
Profile for The Legend
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 11:08
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ZR1 better beat this or else

http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/autos/2019-porsche-911-gt3-rs-nurburgring-lap-record-video-article-1.3949872

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 13:23
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The Legend wrote:
ZR1 better beat this or else

http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/autos/2019-porsche-911-gt3-rs-nurburgring-lap-record-video-article-1.3949872



I mean, even if it doesn't, look at the price difference between the two.

And yes, 120,000 dollars isn't chump change, but that $120,000 will basically pants every car on the planet in performance. That's amazing. I don't even like the Corvette very much, but it's such an incredible car for the money. Good on GM for keeping it real.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 13:49
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We're already getting more power out of bolt on LT4 engines (700 whp on pump). So I'm sure we can get 800+out of this one. And with the dual injector setup 1000+ on e85 should be feasible

SC

qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 16:52
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My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.
revvin
Profile for revvin
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 16:56
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Because natural aspiration is the only way to Nirvana.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 17:15
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revvin wrote:
Because natural aspiration is the only way to Nirvana.


But the ZR1 is supercharged...........

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 20:34
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qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


TORQUE!

shingles
Profile for shingles
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 22:13
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qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


#becausewecan

:)

revvin
Profile for revvin
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 22:28
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sadlerau wrote:
revvin wrote:
Because natural aspiration is the only way to Nirvana.


But the ZR1 is supercharged...........




Crapbaskets.

Atleast superchargers replicate the torque curve of an na vehicle so power delivery is familiar.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 22:48
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America is all into excess. There is no such thing as too much power. But not every American car enthusiasts feel that way.

Chevy also wants to play with Italians. Same level of performance as the exotics for a fraction of the price. Something the Duke boys from Hazzard county would go for.

Or perhaps they would prefer the 800+ Hp Demon because it takes that much power to jump a 4248 lbs Dodge over a Alabama ravine.

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 23:00
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qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


The small block Chevy V8 is more than likely much lighter and more compact vs the engines you referenced as the small block pushrod design is incredibly compact be design.

sennaFAN
Profile for sennaFAN
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 07:02
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Wonderful !! The world needs cars like this. In a world of EV and hybrids et al this is a welcome dose of political incorrectness !!
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 08:40
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qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


Cost and reliability at a performance point.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 08:43
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longhorn wrote:
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/239924/2019-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-first-drive/

My question to Notyper. Can you improve this? It's pretty much perfect, right?



The interior and seating position. I fit better in my S2000 than I do in the new Vettes. For the price you pay, I'd expect a nicer interior as well. It doesn't have to be plush, just nicer.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 10:09
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My question is, why do Europeans feel like they need smaller displacement, boosted engines?...😏
RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 10:17
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Civicb18 wrote:
qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


The small block Chevy V8 is more than likely much lighter and more compact vs the engines you referenced as the small block pushrod design is incredibly compact be design.



Without overhead cams they are much shorter too.

To answer the question regarding larger engines, they can be much cheaper to build. To get gobs of power out of a small engine you generally need expensive components including titanium parts and complex cams to name a couple.

JonBoy
Profile for JonBoy
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 12:07
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qingcong wrote:
My question is, why do the Americans need such massive engines? The 488 makes 660hp from a 3.9L turbo V8 and the P1 makes 727hp from a 3.8L turbo V8.


Have you priced either of those cars?

488 is $250K, roughly, for a vehicle with options similar to a ZR1. In other words, it's double the price....to make less power and torque.

The P1 was $1M base price, so roughly 8x more expensive than a ZR1 and it makes barely any more power. It also has an electric motor to torque fill, to allow the motor to rev and produce top-end power without having a noticeable hole in low-end performance (which it would, if it had to stand on its own).

So, cars that cost way more make less or barely more power out of small-displacement boosted motors using much more complex and expensive components. It doesn't make sense when you're working on a lower-priced car.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 12:34
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Lots of correct answers in this one.

1. The pushrod GM V8s are indeed quite small. Stacking a supercharger on top kind of negates that, but they are short, and even more important, they are narrower than DOHC V8s - much narrower in the case of something like the Ford Coyote/Voodoo engines.

2. Getting 700+ hp from a 6.2 liter V8 is much easier/lower stress than trying to get similar output from a 4 liter turbo. Less boost, less detonation risk, etc. My CTS-V has 105k miles on it now, most of them in a 700 whp state of tune. Still makes the same power on the dyno and leakdown is good. I doubt many(any?) McLaren's or Ferraris will make it that far. The ZR1 runs about 13 psi of boost. The 488 runs 16 psi. Why isn't the difference bigger? Well, the price of a supercharger is that it takes power to turn it whereas the turbo is efficiently using waste gasses. The ZR1's blower probably consumes 100+ hp. So you can see why power and fuel consumption would not be totally comparative until you consider that factor.

3. Response will tend to be better on a large displacement, supercharged engine. Not because the engine has a lighter rotating mass or anything. Simply because it produces boost almost instantaneously as soon as the throttle is opened just off idle. My CTS-V runs 13 psi peak and it will produce 11 psi by 1400 rpm on the street. You may be able to get a Ferrari 488 to show peak torque at 2500 rpm on a static engine dyno, but on the road it's unlikely you'll see anything near peak torque until 3500+ rpm.

4. Potential. The headroom on the GM supercharged V8s is enormous (also on the Dodge supercharged V8s). The only real limitation is how much air the supercharger can move and how well you can cool it. My CTS-V gained 200 whp with 5 psi more boost, an intercooler pump upgrade, bigger injectors and E85. With bigger fuel pumps and headers I should be at 750 whp. Dodge Hellcats regularly exceed 750-800 whp on pump gas and the Demons are at 1000+ on E85. You just can't get that sort of output on the smaller displacement turbo motors without major upgrades (including the turbos) and you'll make them even peakier and less drivable while the supercharged engines just gain output everywhere.

Now, mind you, that's all well and good. But for a big output car built from scratch I'd rather go turbo with less displacement and more revs. Especially for racing. But for a street car big displacement supercharged cars are still more optimal IMO. We've done some GM 4.8 blocks (basically the entry level truck engine) with upgraded pistons, headstuds, valvesprings and twin turbos. Easy 800 whp at 17 psi on E85 and they'll run all day with that. Max boost by 3000 rpm.

SC

qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 15:19
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notyper wrote:
Lots of correct answers in this one.

1. The pushrod GM V8s are indeed quite small. Stacking a supercharger on top kind of negates that, but they are short, and even more important, they are narrower than DOHC V8s - much narrower in the case of something like the Ford Coyote/Voodoo engines.

2. Getting 700+ hp from a 6.2 liter V8 is much easier/lower stress than trying to get similar output from a 4 liter turbo. Less boost, less detonation risk, etc. My CTS-V has 105k miles on it now, most of them in a 700 whp state of tune. Still makes the same power on the dyno and leakdown is good. I doubt many(any?) McLaren's or Ferraris will make it that far. The ZR1 runs about 13 psi of boost. The 488 runs 16 psi. Why isn't the difference bigger? Well, the price of a supercharger is that it takes power to turn it whereas the turbo is efficiently using waste gasses. The ZR1's blower probably consumes 100+ hp. So you can see why power and fuel consumption would not be totally comparative until you consider that factor.

3. Response will tend to be better on a large displacement, supercharged engine. Not because the engine has a lighter rotating mass or anything. Simply because it produces boost almost instantaneously as soon as the throttle is opened just off idle. My CTS-V runs 13 psi peak and it will produce 11 psi by 1400 rpm on the street. You may be able to get a Ferrari 488 to show peak torque at 2500 rpm on a static engine dyno, but on the road it's unlikely you'll see anything near peak torque until 3500+ rpm.

4. Potential. The headroom on the GM supercharged V8s is enormous (also on the Dodge supercharged V8s). The only real limitation is how much air the supercharger can move and how well you can cool it. My CTS-V gained 200 whp with 5 psi more boost, an intercooler pump upgrade, bigger injectors and E85. With bigger fuel pumps and headers I should be at 750 whp. Dodge Hellcats regularly exceed 750-800 whp on pump gas and the Demons are at 1000+ on E85. You just can't get that sort of output on the smaller displacement turbo motors without major upgrades (including the turbos) and you'll make them even peakier and less drivable while the supercharged engines just gain output everywhere.

Now, mind you, that's all well and good. But for a big output car built from scratch I'd rather go turbo with less displacement and more revs. Especially for racing. But for a street car big displacement supercharged cars are still more optimal IMO. We've done some GM 4.8 blocks (basically the entry level truck engine) with upgraded pistons, headstuds, valvesprings and twin turbos. Easy 800 whp at 17 psi on E85 and they'll run all day with that. Max boost by 3000 rpm.

SC





Good stuff. I done got learned.




CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 2, Informative) 04-25-2018 15:28
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The smallblock was always designed for compact dimensions but large displacement (bore spacing, pushrod geometry, small heads). Just because it has a large displacement number doesn't actually mean it's larger than the other engines out there.

Miata vs. LS


Coyote vs LS


If you want to see a real bigass American V8, take a look at the Hellcat engine, which looks like it belongs in a semi.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 15:31
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sennaFAN wrote:
Wonderful !! The world needs cars like this. In a world of EV and hybrids et al this is a welcome dose of political incorrectness !!


I'm now actually curious - are there more 500+ hp cars or hybrids for sale in the US? And/or how low would you have to go to make the numbers equal? 450? 400? Adding EVs or Fuel Cells probably tips the scales - but there are a lot of stupidly powerful and quite expensive supercars/exotics/super luxury cars for sale. A price cap of $100K might make things interesting.

I found an R&T Article that lists 13 cars with over 500 hp for under $100K - they say it's every car under $100K with over 500hp so I guess we'll trust them.

I'm sure there are more than 13 hybrids for sale in the US but I wonder what the 400 hp list would look like.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 17:14
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notyper wrote:
Lots of correct answers in this one.

1. The pushrod GM V8s are indeed quite small. Stacking a supercharger on top kind of negates that, but they are short, and even more important, they are narrower than DOHC V8s - much narrower in the case of something like the Ford Coyote/Voodoo engines.

2. Getting 700+ hp from a 6.2 liter V8 is much easier/lower stress than trying to get similar output from a 4 liter turbo. Less boost, less detonation risk, etc. My CTS-V has 105k miles on it now, most of them in a 700 whp state of tune. Still makes the same power on the dyno and leakdown is good. I doubt many(any?) McLaren's or Ferraris will make it that far. The ZR1 runs about 13 psi of boost. The 488 runs 16 psi. Why isn't the difference bigger? Well, the price of a supercharger is that it takes power to turn it whereas the turbo is efficiently using waste gasses. The ZR1's blower probably consumes 100+ hp. So you can see why power and fuel consumption would not be totally comparative until you consider that factor.

3. Response will tend to be better on a large displacement, supercharged engine. Not because the engine has a lighter rotating mass or anything. Simply because it produces boost almost instantaneously as soon as the throttle is opened just off idle. My CTS-V runs 13 psi peak and it will produce 11 psi by 1400 rpm on the street. You may be able to get a Ferrari 488 to show peak torque at 2500 rpm on a static engine dyno, but on the road it's unlikely you'll see anything near peak torque until 3500+ rpm.

4. Potential. The headroom on the GM supercharged V8s is enormous (also on the Dodge supercharged V8s). The only real limitation is how much air the supercharger can move and how well you can cool it. My CTS-V gained 200 whp with 5 psi more boost, an intercooler pump upgrade, bigger injectors and E85. With bigger fuel pumps and headers I should be at 750 whp. Dodge Hellcats regularly exceed 750-800 whp on pump gas and the Demons are at 1000+ on E85. You just can't get that sort of output on the smaller displacement turbo motors without major upgrades (including the turbos) and you'll make them even peakier and less drivable while the supercharged engines just gain output everywhere.

Now, mind you, that's all well and good. But for a big output car built from scratch I'd rather go turbo with less displacement and more revs. Especially for racing. But for a street car big displacement supercharged cars are still more optimal IMO. We've done some GM 4.8 blocks (basically the entry level truck engine) with upgraded pistons, headstuds, valvesprings and twin turbos. Easy 800 whp at 17 psi on E85 and they'll run all day with that. Max boost by 3000 rpm.

SC



How about four electric motors, each worth 300 ft-lbs and 225 bhp?

With a turbo four running an electric generator.

1200 ft-lbs of torque at 100 rpm.. think about that.

Sure, it will sound like a Hoover vacuum cleaner, boring as hell, but it will go very fast.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 17:46
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TonyEX wrote:

How about four electric motors, each worth 300 ft-lbs and 225 bhp?

With a turbo four running an electric generator.

1200 ft-lbs of torque at 100 rpm.. think about that.

Sure, it will sound like a Hoover vacuum cleaner, boring as hell, but it will go very fast.



Kinda depends on your gear reduction, no? For example, my CTS-V produces about 6000 lbs-ft at the contact patch by 1500 rpm in 1st gear (650 lbs-ft wheel, 10:1 total gear reduction in 1st gear, 1.1 ft tire radius). How much will you be able to gear down those hub motors while still allowing sufficient top speed? It's always the tradeoffs that get you.

I will say that AWD, however implemented, is the future for all these high output cars. McLaren has done some amazing things with their supercars, but they're always on the fine edge of traction while the AWD cars just dig and motor.

SC

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2018 19:27
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Speaking of hub motors, these guys will be at SAE WCX, probably with their hub-motor AWD Civic Type-R: http://orbisdriven.com/



This is a ring driven hub motor. Pretty simple concept, but because of the design, it is a high speed, low torque design that has a power curve that is more like a traditional engine... plus torque multiplication based on its pinion-ring ratio.




rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: 2019 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 First Drive: More Is Never Enough    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-05-2018 20:14
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Leno drives it...
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/jay-leno-drives-new-corvette-zr1-200-mph-063014426.html


 
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