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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are

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KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2018 18:40
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https://www.focus.de/auto/elektroauto/adac-motorwelt-dauertest-kia-optima-wie-umweltfreundlich-ist-der-plug-in-hybrid_id_8696550.html

https://www.adac.de/der-adac/motorwelt/reportagen-berichte/auto-innovation/dauertest-kia-optima-plug-in-hybrid-2018/

The general German automobile club (ADAC) made an endurance test of the Kia Optima Plug-in Hybrid and it's findings were quite disapointing.

The high priced korean PHEV (comes at 44,490 EUR in Germany) revealed an real life consumption of 5.6L Gasoline + 4.3 kWh electricity on 100km. The electric consumption alone would be 20.6 kWh per 100km.

In comparision to that, real life tests of the Toyota Prius III from 2009 by various institutions, including the ADAC, revealed an Test consumption of around 5.1L Gasoline per 100km.

But not only the consumption turned out to be a downside on this vehicle. Also tailpipe emissions showed several issues. Among them were high amounts of CO (1904 mg/km) as well as particles. Hyundai/Kias GDI engine construction resembles that of most european competitors, which all suffer under similar issues.

So to sum it up again, Plug-in-Hybrids make no sense whatsoever. They're highly expensive in the first place, can only be used by people with own parking space and charging access, only have limited electric ranges, can't be reloaed by fast charging and their ICEs turn out to be majo dirtbags.

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2018 22:50
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KaizenDo wrote:
So to sum it up again, Plug-in-Hybrids make no sense whatsoever. They're highly expensive in the first place, can only be used by people with own parking space and charging access, only have limited electric ranges, can't be reloaed by fast charging and their ICEs turn out to be majo dirtbags.


But you are only comparing one Kia. What about other Plug in hybrids like from Honda?

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 05:35
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"Welcome to Honda Europe. We have CR-V, we have Jazz and two Civics outside. What is an plug-in-Hybrid? Do you mean our Miimo lawn mower?"

Nearly all Plug-in-Hybrids use GDI or Turbo-GDI as Hyundai/Kia and their emissions won't pass next tier of Euro-Norm. The only exception is the Prius IV Plug-in.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 07:53
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Why would you compare a 3800 lbs, 202 hp vehicle with a 3000 lbs, 125 hp vehicle? I mean, you can compare all you want but using said comparison to declare that a certain class of vehicle is pointless seems, well, misguided.....

Even worse, we all know that Kia and Hyundai are still a half-generation or more behind in their engine tech. They can produce the headline numbers, but real world performance still tends to be a bit below par. They're hardly the best example to use to compare the potential of a particular class of car - unless you're trying to make that particular class look bad......

SC

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 18:02
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Grapefruit is proven to be bad for people who use hypertension drugs. Therefore, all fruit is bad for human consumption.
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 18:15
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notyper wrote:
Why would you compare a 3800 lbs, 202 hp vehicle with a 3000 lbs, 125 hp vehicle? I mean, you can compare all you want but using said comparison to declare that a certain class of vehicle is pointless seems, well, misguided.....

Even worse, we all know that Kia and Hyundai are still a half-generation or more behind in their engine tech. They can produce the headline numbers, but real world performance still tends to be a bit below par. They're hardly the best example to use to compare the potential of a particular class of car - unless you're trying to make that particular class look bad......

SC



We are comparing the technology from an 2009 Toyota 1.8L Atkinson Cycle engine to an 2016 Kia 2.0L Atkinson Cycle engine - that's why. It's very much on the point, as you know for yourself that i.e. Honda's 2.0L LFA Atkinson Cycle engine is superior to the 1.8L Toyota Atkinson Cycle engine of 2009.

So, Kia and Hyundai are a half generation behind in engine tech? Well, the koreans make the same stuff as the germans do (VAG, Daimler, BMW) but already use the Atkinson Cycle on a larger scale. Even more, the Germans are actually buying their batteries and EV equipement from the koreans.

It rather seems to me, you are trying to neglect the obvious and evade the necessary conclusions. And that is, that most PHEVs on the market today are nonsense. They are neither efficient, nor they are clean - they are only more expensive.

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 21:35
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KaizenDo wrote:
"Welcome to Honda Europe. We have CR-V, we have Jazz and two Civics outside. What is an plug-in-Hybrid? Do you mean our Miimo lawn mower?"


Let me ask again, I will use the coma this time..

What about other Plug in hybrids like from Honda?

so obviously in your area Honda doesn't have plug in hybrid. But is that it? Only Kia and a 2009 Toyota?

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2018 21:38
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fishchan wrote:

I will use the coma this time..


No I didn't, LOL. Didn't have my morning coffee yet.


Here it is:

What about other Plug in hybrids, like from Honda?

BG
Profile for BG
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 09:55
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https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2018-03/bmw-cuts-model-range-as-new-wltp-test-looms/

Some more fuel for your Fire KaizenDo

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 11:39
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KaizenDo wrote:
notyper wrote:
Why would you compare a 3800 lbs, 202 hp vehicle with a 3000 lbs, 125 hp vehicle? I mean, you can compare all you want but using said comparison to declare that a certain class of vehicle is pointless seems, well, misguided.....

Even worse, we all know that Kia and Hyundai are still a half-generation or more behind in their engine tech. They can produce the headline numbers, but real world performance still tends to be a bit below par. They're hardly the best example to use to compare the potential of a particular class of car - unless you're trying to make that particular class look bad......

SC



We are comparing the technology from an 2009 Toyota 1.8L Atkinson Cycle engine to an 2016 Kia 2.0L Atkinson Cycle engine - that's why. It's very much on the point, as you know for yourself that i.e. Honda's 2.0L LFA Atkinson Cycle engine is superior to the 1.8L Toyota Atkinson Cycle engine of 2009.

So, Kia and Hyundai are a half generation behind in engine tech? Well, the koreans make the same stuff as the germans do (VAG, Daimler, BMW) but already use the Atkinson Cycle on a larger scale. Even more, the Germans are actually buying their batteries and EV equipement from the koreans.

It rather seems to me, you are trying to neglect the obvious and evade the necessary conclusions. And that is, that most PHEVs on the market today are nonsense. They are neither efficient, nor they are clean - they are only more expensive.



Nein. You are simply comparing apples to oranges and inferring that grapes are not healthy. I love technical comparisons and analysis. Statistics are my friend because I know how to use them. OTOH, I hate it when people try to twist data to fit their preconceived notions and/or agendas.

Maybe you're right. But this particular test does not prove what you would like it to prove.

As for the Koreans, I still haven't seen a Korean car (save for the new twin turbo Stinger), when compared to most of its competition, that produces the sort of performance that its headline specs (power, weight, torque, etc.) would suggest. They're getting closer, but the Korean marques still haven't learned/applied all the little things that end up making a big difference in how vehicles perform. They will get there because they are working hard at it and hiring the right people, but they aren't quite there yet. One more generation perhaps.

SC

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 14:22
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I feel like someone with a plug in hybrid pissed in Kaizen's cereal at some point.

The Optima is probably, if not definitely, the worst of the PHEV's, and that's fairly well documented in the US auto press, and I'm sure the opinions aren't much different in the EU.

To counter, what about the Clarity? Is it, too, useless?

I have said it before and I will say it again, it depends on how you use it.

I set up a comparison on Fueleconomy.gov, which has a neutral calculation tool built in. The comparison is between a 2011 Prius, a 2018 Optima PHEV, and the new Clarity, which I think is one of the best examples of a PHEV on the market, and a car you're ignoring.

Check it out:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39782&id=30919&id=39783

I set it up to calculate based on an "average" of what it costs for gasoline, based on "average" costs for electricity, and it's set up assuming that 45% of driving is done on the highway, and that one drives 15,000 miles a year.

So, if we are comparing a 2018 Clarity, a 2011 Prius and a 2018 Optima PHEV, you can read in plain sight that the Clarity stands heads a shoulders better than both cars in being significantly cheaper to own and run, and is also more environmentally friendly. End of.

Arguably, the Prius and Optima are not too different, like you said.

That, however, really just reflects poorly on the Optima if you ask me.

And if you want to get into a car-to-car-to-car argument, the Clarity is also roomier, faster, better driving, and far more comfortable and quiet than either of the other two.

And again, this is set up for the "average American annual commute". I say that because you absolutely must factor in driving style changes when comparing PHEVs, otherwise there is no point in comparing a PHEV to anything.

Example:

If you're driving 40 miles one way on the highway going 65 miles an hour to get to work every day, you should not own a PHEV. Straight up. It would be stupid. In fact, in that instance there is no better car than something like a Civic, or a similar gas powered smaller car. Even a Prius or Accord hybrid is a bit of a waste because you're not taking advantage of the hybrid systems and are indeed spending more money up front for the hybrid technology.

You see, *for me*, however there is absolutely no comparison. I drive 6,000 miles a year. My average commute is under 10 miles a day. I almost never drive on the highway, and if I do it's for 5 miles at most. Plus, I can charge my car over night each night and literally not use any gasoline at all. So, based on averages, again, it's about 11-13 dollars a month to keep a PHEV charged, and in theory I would never have to use gasoline at all. Maybe the occasional 5 or 10 dollars a month if I needed to take a short trip around the area or happened to use the gas engine for whatever reason.

And if I were to travel a large amount I'd just take our CR-V. Simple.

So you see, in my case, it's almost stupid to *not* own a PHEV, and that's from a raw economic point of view.

And that's why a PHEV works for me--and a lot of other people in urban areas who don't drive much--and why your "PHEV's make no sense" argument isn't true. Just because it doesn't make sense for you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for anyone else.



KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 16:05
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fishchan wrote:
fishchan wrote:

I will use the coma this time..


No I didn't, LOL. Didn't have my morning coffee yet.


Here it is:

What about other Plug in hybrids, like from Honda?



I've already told you, it's the same with other Plug-in-Hybrids of european or korean origin. They use turbocharged DI-midget engines which stand for massive particle emissions and low lifetime. In short, it's absolute shit!

For an representative review, check this BMW 225xe Plug-in-Hybrid Test by the ADAC. BMW is in terms of hybrid vehicles the most advanced of all the german makers - however this is what you'll get

BMW 225xe (1.5L Turbocharged)
Purchase Price: 43,100 EUR
pure average Electricity consumption: 26.4 kWh per 100km
pure average Fuel consumption: 7.5L per 100km
Emission test: massive amount of particles, CO and NoX in more demanding highway cycle.
Download link

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 16:27
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notyper wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
notyper wrote:
Why would you compare a 3800 lbs, 202 hp vehicle with a 3000 lbs, 125 hp vehicle? I mean, you can compare all you want but using said comparison to declare that a certain class of vehicle is pointless seems, well, misguided.....

Even worse, we all know that Kia and Hyundai are still a half-generation or more behind in their engine tech. They can produce the headline numbers, but real world performance still tends to be a bit below par. They're hardly the best example to use to compare the potential of a particular class of car - unless you're trying to make that particular class look bad......

SC



We are comparing the technology from an 2009 Toyota 1.8L Atkinson Cycle engine to an 2016 Kia 2.0L Atkinson Cycle engine - that's why. It's very much on the point, as you know for yourself that i.e. Honda's 2.0L LFA Atkinson Cycle engine is superior to the 1.8L Toyota Atkinson Cycle engine of 2009.

So, Kia and Hyundai are a half generation behind in engine tech? Well, the koreans make the same stuff as the germans do (VAG, Daimler, BMW) but already use the Atkinson Cycle on a larger scale. Even more, the Germans are actually buying their batteries and EV equipement from the koreans.

It rather seems to me, you are trying to neglect the obvious and evade the necessary conclusions. And that is, that most PHEVs on the market today are nonsense. They are neither efficient, nor they are clean - they are only more expensive.



Nein. You are simply comparing apples to oranges and inferring that grapes are not healthy. I love technical comparisons and analysis. Statistics are my friend because I know how to use them. OTOH, I hate it when people try to twist data to fit their preconceived notions and/or agendas.

Maybe you're right. But this particular test does not prove what you would like it to prove.

As for the Koreans, I still haven't seen a Korean car (save for the new twin turbo Stinger), when compared to most of its competition, that produces the sort of performance that its headline specs (power, weight, torque, etc.) would suggest. They're getting closer, but the Korean marques still haven't learned/applied all the little things that end up making a big difference in how vehicles perform. They will get there because they are working hard at it and hiring the right people, but they aren't quite there yet. One more generation perhaps.

SC



Which agenda are you following here? If you love technical data so much, how about common sense?

Higher vehicle weigth = higher energy required to accelerate it
Uneven fuel mixture = higher amount of particles produced
Higher combustion temperatures = higher amount of NOx
turbocharging = lower compression ratio = lower efficiency
And especially for Plug-in-Hybrids
lower battery capacity = lower safety buffer when charging = lower charging speeds

You're forgetting one thing. We're not talking about performance here, we're talking about fuel efficiency and emission quality here. And in these two fields, the Germans suck at least just as bad as the Koreans.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 16:45
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S600=Dream wrote:
I feel like someone with a plug in hybrid pissed in Kaizen's cereal at some point.

The Optima is probably, if not definitely, the worst of the PHEV's, and that's fairly well documented in the US auto press, and I'm sure the opinions aren't much different in the EU.

To counter, what about the Clarity? Is it, too, useless?

I have said it before and I will say it again, it depends on how you use it.

I set up a comparison on Fueleconomy.gov, which has a neutral calculation tool built in. The comparison is between a 2011 Prius, a 2018 Optima PHEV, and the new Clarity, which I think is one of the best examples of a PHEV on the market, and a car you're ignoring.

Check it out:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39782&id=30919&id=39783

I set it up to calculate based on an "average" of what it costs for gasoline, based on "average" costs for electricity, and it's set up assuming that 45% of driving is done on the highway, and that one drives 15,000 miles a year.

So, if we are comparing a 2018 Clarity, a 2011 Prius and a 2018 Optima PHEV, you can read in plain sight that the Clarity stands heads a shoulders better than both cars in being significantly cheaper to own and run, and is also more environmentally friendly. End of.

Arguably, the Prius and Optima are not too different, like you said.

That, however, really just reflects poorly on the Optima if you ask me.

And if you want to get into a car-to-car-to-car argument, the Clarity is also roomier, faster, better driving, and far more comfortable and quiet than either of the other two.

And again, this is set up for the "average American annual commute". I say that because you absolutely must factor in driving style changes when comparing PHEVs, otherwise there is no point in comparing a PHEV to anything.

Example:

If you're driving 40 miles one way on the highway going 65 miles an hour to get to work every day, you should not own a PHEV. Straight up. It would be stupid. In fact, in that instance there is no better car than something like a Civic, or a similar gas powered smaller car. Even a Prius or Accord hybrid is a bit of a waste because you're not taking advantage of the hybrid systems and are indeed spending more money up front for the hybrid technology.

You see, *for me*, however there is absolutely no comparison. I drive 6,000 miles a year. My average commute is under 10 miles a day. I almost never drive on the highway, and if I do it's for 5 miles at most. Plus, I can charge my car over night each night and literally not use any gasoline at all. So, based on averages, again, it's about 11-13 dollars a month to keep a PHEV charged, and in theory I would never have to use gasoline at all. Maybe the occasional 5 or 10 dollars a month if I needed to take a short trip around the area or happened to use the gas engine for whatever reason.

And if I were to travel a large amount I'd just take our CR-V. Simple.

So you see, in my case, it's almost stupid to *not* own a PHEV, and that's from a raw economic point of view.

And that's why a PHEV works for me--and a lot of other people in urban areas who don't drive much--and why your "PHEV's make no sense" argument isn't true. Just because it doesn't make sense for you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for anyone else.



Now look who's here, the man with the electric Golf cart. Let's check your link

Prius 2011 comes at 22,120 and does 48MPG
Clarity 2018 comes at 33,400 - 36,600 and does 42MPG
Opima 2018 comes at 35,210 and does 40MPG

Now the annual fuel costs of Prius are 850 USD, while of the Clarity are 700 USD. So now let's do the math.

33,400 - 22,120 = 11,280 : 100 = 112.8

So you only have to drive your Clarity Plug-in-Hybrid for just 112.8 years to make up the price difference to the Prius.

You know what, I feel like someone needs to get off from his drugs. We know by know that you in your daily routine nearly don't need a car at all. Still you're desperately searching for points to sugarcoat your purchase of an overprized supermini which is unable to go even 200km. I really hope there won't be aver any power outage or disturbance to the grid from natural disastes in your place - otherwise you'll be in serious trouble.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 19:20
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I've never seen this level of panty-twisting from a guy who likes hybrids but doesn't like hybrids with additional drive modes.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 19:38
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I've never seen this level of panty-twisting from a guy who likes hybrids but doesn't like hybrids with additional drive modes.

He does seem to have himself worked up into a bit of a frenzy!

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 21:11
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I've never seen this level of panty-twisting from a guy who likes hybrids but doesn't like hybrids with additional drive modes.


I lol'd.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 21:45
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KaizenDo wrote:

Which agenda are you following here? If you love technical data so much, how about common sense?

Higher vehicle weigth = higher energy required to accelerate it
Uneven fuel mixture = higher amount of particles produced
Higher combustion temperatures = higher amount of NOx
turbocharging = lower compression ratio = lower efficiency
And especially for Plug-in-Hybrids
lower battery capacity = lower safety buffer when charging = lower charging speeds

You're forgetting one thing. We're not talking about performance here, we're talking about fuel efficiency and emission quality here. And in these two fields, the Germans suck at least just as bad as the Koreans.



How dare you talk to me about common sense after your bodged together comparison in this thread? Seriously particulate-boy, you've got some splainin' to do.

If one wanted common sense and a comparison of actual costs/benefits of plug-in hybrids vs. hybrids, a wise particulate-boy would compare the Prius vs. the Prius Prime. Did that ever occur to you?

If you did make that comparison, you'd find that similarly equipped the plug-in weighs about 300 lbs more, is slightly quicker and gets slightly better EPA economy (Prius-3 vs. Prius Prime Plus). I choose the 3 vs. Plus comparison because they offer virtually the same feature set. And similarly equipped the Plus is only about $700 more. You do get a little less interior space with the plug-in, but in return you can drive up to 25 miles on electric alone.

Now, I wouldn't be caught dead in either of those vehicles, but tell me again how plug-ins are so god awful horrible while regular hybrids are not? Because to me it's looking like, apples to apples, they offer slightly different approaches to the same problem, and which one is more appealing depends pretty much on the driver and their main uses for the vehicle.

Or was this whole thread just another screed on particulate emissions, but you just tried disguising it as something else?

SC

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2018 23:45
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notyper wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:

Which agenda are you following here? If you love technical data so much, how about common sense?

Higher vehicle weigth = higher energy required to accelerate it
Uneven fuel mixture = higher amount of particles produced
Higher combustion temperatures = higher amount of NOx
turbocharging = lower compression ratio = lower efficiency
And especially for Plug-in-Hybrids
lower battery capacity = lower safety buffer when charging = lower charging speeds

You're forgetting one thing. We're not talking about performance here, we're talking about fuel efficiency and emission quality here. And in these two fields, the Germans suck at least just as bad as the Koreans.



How dare you talk to me about common sense after your bodged together comparison in this thread? Seriously particulate-boy, you've got some splainin' to do.

If one wanted common sense and a comparison of actual costs/benefits of plug-in hybrids vs. hybrids, a wise particulate-boy would compare the Prius vs. the Prius Prime. Did that ever occur to you?

If you did make that comparison, you'd find that similarly equipped the plug-in weighs about 300 lbs more, is slightly quicker and gets slightly better EPA economy (Prius-3 vs. Prius Prime Plus). I choose the 3 vs. Plus comparison because they offer virtually the same feature set. And similarly equipped the Plus is only about $700 more. You do get a little less interior space with the plug-in, but in return you can drive up to 25 miles on electric alone.

Now, I wouldn't be caught dead in either of those vehicles, but tell me again how plug-ins are so god awful horrible while regular hybrids are not? Because to me it's looking like, apples to apples, they offer slightly different approaches to the same problem, and which one is more appealing depends pretty much on the driver and their main uses for the vehicle.

Or was this whole thread just another screed on particulate emissions, but you just tried disguising it as something else?

SC



+ 1,000,000!

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 01:43
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It strikes me again, how on TOV sometimes every common sense is thrown over board and members of all color gang together just to troll another member. What a show!

Regardless of your intentional ignorance of the facts, I'll repeat what I've answered to fishchan before:

Nearly all Plug-in-Hybrids use GDI or Turbo-GDI as Hyundai/Kia and their emissions won't pass next tier of Euro-Norm. The only exception is the Prius IV Plug-in



And for you notyper, if you can do anything aside name-calling and insist TOV is your side, here is my point i'm trying to communicate.

1.) Why should anyone spend 10,000 USD or more just to drive up to 25 miles electric, when he can do the same with gasoline? The powerplants put out emissions, just like an ICE. And think about it when government laws change, they can tax electricity used for car charging on the same level as gasoline. No advantage at all, just more expensive.

2.) Hybrids can be operated in various ways. You can do them like Toyota/Honda/Nissan with Atkinson Cycle engine and you get fuel efficiency + clean emisisons. You can also do them like BMW/VW/Daimler/Hyundai/Kia and strap an enlarged rechargable battery to your standard Diesel/GDI/T-GDI engine. Then you get a few km electric range + afterward worse emissions than from a regular Diesel/GDI/T-GDI, as it has to carry around the full weight of a battery. Why should anyone pay so much more money for these vehicles, when in the end they are not clean?

superchg2
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Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 03:28
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KaizenDo wrote:
It strikes me again, how on TOV sometimes every common sense is thrown over board and members of all color gang together just to troll another member. What a show!


What strikes me is that you try to force your particular point of view on to other TOV members and then throw a hissy fit when they may not agree with you. And in all honesty, you seem to be constantly promoting your own agenda's (anti-turbo and anti small engine) with a vengeance.

Since this is just a forum, why don't you go outside and take a walk and enjoy the Spring time weather?

THX17201
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Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 08:11
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superchg2 wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
It strikes me again, how on TOV sometimes every common sense is thrown over board and members of all color gang together just to troll another member. What a show!


What strikes me is that you try to force your particular point of view on to other TOV members and then throw a hissy fit when they may not agree with you. And in all honesty, you seem to be constantly promoting your own agenda's (anti-turbo and anti small engine) with a vengeance.

Since this is just a forum, why don't you go outside and take a walk and enjoy the Spring time weather?



+ another 1,000,000!

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 10:42
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KaizenDo wrote:
It strikes me again, how on TOV sometimes every common sense is thrown over board and members of all color gang together just to troll another member. What a show!

Regardless of your intentional ignorance of the facts, I'll repeat what I've answered to fishchan before:

Nearly all Plug-in-Hybrids use GDI or Turbo-GDI as Hyundai/Kia and their emissions won't pass next tier of Euro-Norm. The only exception is the Prius IV Plug-in



And for you notyper, if you can do anything aside name-calling and insist TOV is your side, here is my point i'm trying to communicate.

1.) Why should anyone spend 10,000 USD or more just to drive up to 25 miles electric, when he can do the same with gasoline? The powerplants put out emissions, just like an ICE. And think about it when government laws change, they can tax electricity used for car charging on the same level as gasoline. No advantage at all, just more expensive.

2.) Hybrids can be operated in various ways. You can do them like Toyota/Honda/Nissan with Atkinson Cycle engine and you get fuel efficiency + clean emisisons. You can also do them like BMW/VW/Daimler/Hyundai/Kia and strap an enlarged rechargable battery to your standard Diesel/GDI/T-GDI engine. Then you get a few km electric range + afterward worse emissions than from a regular Diesel/GDI/T-GDI, as it has to carry around the full weight of a battery. Why should anyone pay so much more money for these vehicles, when in the end they are not clean?



When you say common sense, that term does not mean what you think it means.

I will also note that you completely ignored the direct comparison of plug-in vs. hybrid in the Prius case. Why? Because it completely invalidates your screed against plug-ins. Which means your whole thesis of this thread is bunk. When Toyota can offer plug-in ability on the Prius for about a 5% increase in cost, it becomes a viable option for many people. Maybe they live in a place with cheap electricity. Maybe they have solar power at their home. It's not for you to decide if the value equation works for the consumer - it's for the consumer.

But then again, your point was never really about plug-in hybrids, was it? It was about small displacement, DI turbo engines. I've never seen a person hate a technology so fiercely. I mean, I don't like Facebook and Twitter, but you're at a whole different level when it comes to DI engines.

From an actual pollution standpoint, I really don't care what government entities change the standards too. Most of those agencies are composed of a bunch of charlatans and liars whose decisions are driven as much by politics as they are by science. They've squandered their aura of impartiality and the illusion of seeking the greater good by putting out unreproducible studies, hiding data and actively seeking to obfuscate the results of their work.

We would not have the current engine technology landscape we have today, for better or worse, if it wasn't for government meddling in things they really did not understand. I won't join your crusade against automakers. You strike me as someone who would like to tell people how to live their lives, what they should be able to buy and what they can and can not do. I am very much the opposite.

SC

KaizenDo
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Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 14:13
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superchg2 & notyper> Excuse me, but since when is posting your opinion on TOV considered forcing a point of view on others? This is complete nonsense and we all are long enough on forums to know better.

To begin with, the thread title is "Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are" so it told you in the first place about the subject. Secondly, I didn't chose the title myself, but it was a direct tranlsation of an article on German news magazine and ADAC study.

What I've done here was posting the article, along with my opinion. Nothing more, and nothing less. What you call "forcing one's point of view on others" would be, when I pick a random thread about the new Civic, the new Accord and constantly tell people "you made a wrong buy, because the engine is shit". Can you see the difference?


Then your disagreement based on the Prius IV. The PIV Plug in is 4,000 USD more expensive which is an increase of 15%. According to fueleconomy.gov you can save 200 USD a year, which still makes it 20 years for an PHEV to amortize - and we haven't count in the costs for installing any kind of charging for your car yet. There is a lot of maybe that you throw in, but from an economical standpoint it doesn't make much sense. It's a nice to have add-on for people who want more and unfortunately the standard Prius doesn't look so good with it's asymetric front either.


Finally let me tell you about Europe and the reaons why I'm against Diesels and DI Turbo-engines. I know your american approach of "everything that comes from the state cuts my freedom". You have according laws where anyone may sue anyone. In Europe and especially Germany things are different. We don't have similar laws, you can't sue VW as a normal citizen. There is a close connection between industry and politicians. Neglecting emission laws has lead to the Dieselgate scandal which now has lead to a whole industry getting screwed. Next thing to be affected will be DI turbocharged gasoline engines, as their design doesn't allow them to run clean. Now you may say, I don't care what european politicians decide in regards to "socialist enviroment norms". However, bear in mind that a large amount of cars also get exportet to overseas market. And in markets with stricter emission laws, your product won't sell and you've spent some million bucks of R&D for something you can't use.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 16:37
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Electrical defects cause Priuses to stall; Toyota may be bracing for a legal fight as safety worries grow


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 17:17
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KaizenDo wrote:
... In Europe and especially Germany things are different. We don't have similar laws, you can't sue VW as a normal citizen. There is a close connection between industry and politicians. ...



(1) That's has a clear name: FASCISM. I'm sorry about you guys in the EU. Germany is busy creating a Fourth Reich via the EU and you plain citizens are getting the shaft.

(2) Earlier, you kept writing about why would someone pay more for a plug in that can go 25 miles in a charge.... let's be more realistic, it will usually be 50 miles or so.

Why?

I told you earlier but you failed to register it... so I'll write it again.

Because in California you get a Carpool Access Sticker. That means that while everybody else is stuck on the freeway doing 40 mph, you can sort of average 60 mph on the car pool lane.

THAT MY FRIEND... is why.



KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 18:27
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Jeff> Thanks for the link. Will keep watching it

TonyEx>

1) You know that Volkswagen was originally founded by the Nazi organization "Kraft durch Freude". And still today 20% of VW Inc. is held by the state.

2) In real world test, that rather becomes 25 (heating in winter, AC in summer). Also there are not many countries which have car pool lanes (Wiki)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 18:50
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KaizenDo wrote:
Jeff> Thanks for the link. Will keep watching it

TonyEx>

1) You know that Volkswagen was originally founded by the Nazi organization "Kraft durch Freude". And still today 20% of VW Inc. is held by the state.

2) In real world test, that rather becomes 25 (heating in winter, AC in summer). Also there are not many countries which have car pool lanes (Wiki)




Yeah, at least Benz and Auto Union started as real companies.

In the "real world"... honestly you see... it's not how long the battery lasts, it's the CAR POOL STICKER. My wife and I are currently debating whether to get a Clarity PHEV and we will NEVER plug it in at night. In essence, it will be run as a gas engined car. But, with access to the... CAR.POOL.LANE... see?

You see, you keep making blanket statements that PHEV makes no sense... but I keep telling your not to make blanket statements like that because there are places in the World, where Honda sells many, many cars, where we have car pool lanes and car pool stickers.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 19:28
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TonyEX wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Jeff> Thanks for the link. Will keep watching it

TonyEx>

1) You know that Volkswagen was originally founded by the Nazi organization "Kraft durch Freude". And still today 20% of VW Inc. is held by the state.

2) In real world test, that rather becomes 25 (heating in winter, AC in summer). Also there are not many countries which have car pool lanes (Wiki)




Yeah, at least Benz and Auto Union started as real companies.

In the "real world"... honestly you see... it's not how long the battery lasts, it's the CAR POOL STICKER. My wife and I are currently debating whether to get a Clarity PHEV and we will NEVER plug it in at night. In essence, it will be run as a gas engined car. But, with access to the... CAR.POOL.LANE... see?

You see, you keep making blanket statements that PHEV makes no sense... but I keep telling your not to make blanket statements like that because there are places in the World, where Honda sells many, many cars, where we have car pool lanes and car pool stickers.



So in other words, we could say that Plug-in-Hybrids make sense only in places with car pool lanes where a PHEV enables drivers to use it, yes?

S600=Dream
Profile for S600=Dream
Re: Endurance Test: How bad exhaust emissions from Plug-in-hybrids really are    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2018 20:31
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KaizenDo wrote:So in other words, we could say that Plug-in-Hybrids make sense only in places with car pool lanes where a PHEV enables drivers to use it, yes?


Also, everyone in cities, with short commutes.

Which is a large proportion of people on earth.

But whatever.







 
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