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  TOV News > All-New 10th Generation Honda Accord Launching This Year with Advanced New Powertrain Lineup > > Re: A word about Timing Belts....

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VTEC_Inside
Profile for VTEC_Inside
A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 12:31
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Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 12:59
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i think some folks are quoting the 105k mile service estimates they've received which should also include the spark plug and coolant replacements plus a few checks and what-nots.

Honda and NGK are rather proud of their OEM spec plugs. They do at least put them in cool looking little boxes though.

PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 13:01
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yes the smoothness of a belt and quietness is a huge advantage imo.

ive also know people to do 250,000km on there mdx with no belt change. they say i'll change it when it snaps. lol


as long as you dont do JACK RABBIT starts the belt should go long.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 13:15
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VTEC_Inside wrote:
Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.



The 2nd and 3rd parts are false, particularly once you start discussing tooth spacing, timing belt stretch and lubrication. Timing belts don't "suck", but there are other reasons why it's limiting and why you don't see it on Honda's newest generation engines. I would also like to point out that "quiet" goes out the window as soon as you direct injection to an engine.

One problem people have already specified with the J-series is access, FEAD removal and the removal (and use) of silicone gasket sealant. It's a 5 hour job per dealer listing IIRC, and the labor cost is what makes it expensive if you have someone do it.

The other issue with timing belts are that they don't tolerate high friction. There is a specific reason why this engine never had VTC, never had a DOHC version, and is essentially tapped out from Direct Injection use. It means the inability to use variable cam phasers, which is extremely important for turbocharged engine response. If Honda wanted to turbocharge an engine, they need VTC, and therefore need timing chains.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 14:42
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CarPhreakD wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.



The 2nd and 3rd parts are false, particularly once you start discussing tooth spacing, timing belt stretch and lubrication. Timing belts don't "suck", but there are other reasons why it's limiting and why you don't see it on Honda's newest generation engines. I would also like to point out that "quiet" goes out the window as soon as you direct injection to an engine.

One problem people have already specified with the J-series is access, FEAD removal and the removal (and use) of silicone gasket sealant. It's a 5 hour job per dealer listing IIRC, and the labor cost is what makes it expensive if you have someone do it.

The other issue with timing belts are that they don't tolerate high friction. There is a specific reason why this engine never had VTC, never had a DOHC version, and is essentially tapped out from Direct Injection use. It means the inability to use variable cam phasers, which is extremely important for turbocharged engine response. If Honda wanted to turbocharge an engine, they need VTC, and therefore need timing chains.


I think you explain quite well the advantages of timing chains. Can you also please explain the circumstances where one might choose a timing belt in an engine design over chains? Is it a cost issue alone, perhaps?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 15:46
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Most of the time you wouldn't. If your valvetrain design is simple and low friction, you have a separate oil pump chain/belt and you have are placing a big emphasis on cost I suppose it can make sense. I think the most popular example is the partially lubricated belt systems you find on KaizenDo's much maligned midget engines in Europe (though I have a general sketchiness about using this in extremely cold weather). I think they can get away with it because they have 3 cylinders.
VTEC_Inside
Profile for VTEC_Inside
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-14-2017 16:55
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CarPhreakD wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.



The 2nd and 3rd parts are false, particularly once you start discussing tooth spacing, timing belt stretch and lubrication. Timing belts don't "suck", but there are other reasons why it's limiting and why you don't see it on Honda's newest generation engines. I would also like to point out that "quiet" goes out the window as soon as you direct injection to an engine.

One problem people have already specified with the J-series is access, FEAD removal and the removal (and use) of silicone gasket sealant. It's a 5 hour job per dealer listing IIRC, and the labor cost is what makes it expensive if you have someone do it.

The other issue with timing belts are that they don't tolerate high friction. There is a specific reason why this engine never had VTC, never had a DOHC version, and is essentially tapped out from Direct Injection use. It means the inability to use variable cam phasers, which is extremely important for turbocharged engine response. If Honda wanted to turbocharge an engine, they need VTC, and therefore need timing chains.



2nd point is because the belt doensn't need to be oiled, and thus isn't constantly being dragged through it.

On the 3rd point, I have no personal experience, I was just reiterating what I've read on the topic.

I can see them being ruled out from direct injection as the high pressure mechanical pump would be a big load on it. I can't see why VTC wouldn't work in terms of load, but I suppose it could have something to do with the oil feed to the VTC phaser...

rocky
Profile for rocky
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-15-2017 06:52
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VTEC_Inside wrote:
Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.



On 1: This is an often made claim. Never proven.
on 2: Never heard it before. Prove it.
On 3: Timing belts and chains are both subject to stretching. Belts react badly to seal failures and oil contamination. Belts if there is a defect in alignment or similar, fail spectacularly and prematurely. Belts are guaranteed to cost the owner $$$ in maintenance. Timing chains won't cause that. They are a lifetime fixture unless there is a defect in engine design (Chevy 3.6V6) or failure to maintain the car with oil changes. If the latter you have bigger problems than the timing chain.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2017 07:05
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Honda engines are shit, I can't believe they don't use gears.
ezshift5
Profile for ezshift5
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2017 09:52
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Dren wrote:
Honda engines are shit, I can't believe they don't use gears.


They are interference engines...........

(But I wouldn't describe them as - - - well, you understand........)

ez (looking at the new Civic Hatch.......but that right rear blind spot concerns this sailor big time)

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2017 11:51
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He's talking about timing gears, ala Honda VFR.


Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 11:36
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Most of the time you wouldn't. If your valvetrain design is simple and low friction, you have a separate oil pump chain/belt and you have are placing a big emphasis on cost I suppose it can make sense. I think the most popular example is the partially lubricated belt systems you find on KaizenDo's much maligned midget engines in Europe (though I have a general sketchiness about using this in extremely cold weather). I think they can get away with it because they have 3 cylinders.
Indeed Honda did go with the belt for its ED 1.0T


Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 11:38
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CarPhreakD wrote:
He's talking about timing gears, ala Honda VFR.


BIG-JG
Profile for BIG-JG
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 13:22
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Very interesting, this is the first time i've seen timing belt suberge in engine oil like a timing chain, as petroleum degrades polymer materials such as rubber. This means, unlike the old timing belt engine which has plastic timing belt cover, this new engine's timing belt compartment is sealed and under crankcase pressure like a timing chain. In order to change the timing belt, you have to unseal the engine's front cover, which means messy silicone sealant, again like a timing chain... This also lead me to think this timing belt maybe life time belt just like a timing chain.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 15:23
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VTEC_Inside wrote:
Since the T-Belt has come up in a lot of these threads as a reason the J series sucks, I felt it prudent to remind people of its advantages.

- Quieter than chains
- Less parasitic power loss
- They typically maintain more accurate timing

The proposed cost of changing one seems to go up with every post. I blame the dealers for this. It is most definitely possible to purchase OE belt and water pump for under $170 (hondaautomotiveparts.com), say $350 if you replace the tensioner and idler as well. Add $300 for labor and its a $600 job on the high side, which is a far cry from $1000+...

Sure, a timing chain should cost you nothing, but lets not pretend it doesn't come with its own compromises.



Most shops now charge $60-100 an hour. Times the 5-6 hours for the timing belt change and I would say that "$300" is pretty far out the window. Go get a quote on a timing belt job using all OEM parts and let me know what you come back with...

As for "quieter than chains", I agree with CarPhreakd. DI and all of the other non-sense (including endless plastic "sound" covers) have negated that. However, I will also mention that Honda specifically put a chain on both the F20C and the K series because they were able to equal or beat the sound signature of a timing belt with their timing chain design.

I have never seen anything that says a chain has more parasitic power loss, nor do I see how a fiber reinforced rubber belt is going to be less elastic than a steel chain.

cksi1372
Profile for cksi1372
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 17:07
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Just had timing belt, water pump, tensioner, and belts done on our 11 MDX and it was $756, but I had done at Honda dealer as we have a family connection there. Acura dealer wanted about $1400 for the same service, plus change spark plugs and oil change, I think. I did spark plugs myself and Acura dealer was only going to subtract roughly $150 for me doing that.

As for a preference, I really don't have one and have faith Honda can make the "best" decision re: belt or chain, so I'll leave to people smarter than me to make that decision.

TL_06
Profile for TL_06
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 17:38
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CarPhreakD wrote:
One problem people have already specified with the J-series is access, FEAD removal and the removal (and use) of silicone gasket sealant. It's a 5 hour job per dealer listing IIRC, and the labor cost is what makes it expensive if you have someone do it.


Timing belt replacement is certainly a maintenance cost, but it's a planned maintenance cost like tires and (if you're realistic) front brakes.

KBB and Edmunds do 5-yr cost of ownership and break out maintenance costs. Can anybody point to reputable 10-year calcs and show Honda V-6 compared to competition?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A word about Timing Belts.... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2017 18:12
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TL_06 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
One problem people have already specified with the J-series is access, FEAD removal and the removal (and use) of silicone gasket sealant. It's a 5 hour job per dealer listing IIRC, and the labor cost is what makes it expensive if you have someone do it.


Timing belt replacement is certainly a maintenance cost, but it's a planned maintenance cost like tires and (if you're realistic) front brakes.

KBB and Edmunds do 5-yr cost of ownership and break out maintenance costs. Can anybody point to reputable 10-year calcs and show Honda V-6 compared to competition?



I looked at the TLX and 3 series awhile back (discussion with TonyEX about the "costs" of owning a German car) and the TLX had a significant uptick in MX costs associated with that timing belt service. Ironically, it went a long way toward closing the gap between the TLX and the 3-series, which left the TLX relying on cheaper maintenance elsewhere.

As for the cost itself, even if it is a PLANNED cost, it still has to be done. When you have a significant maintenance cost such as the timing belt on an Accord, and nothing on a Camry, Altima, Fusion, etc it can greatly affect the overall cost of ownership and it only makes a Honda less of a bargain from an ownership standpoint (even though it might be higher in resale, etc).

TrueCar has good comparisons because you can pick and choose various cars and compare them.


 
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