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TOV Forums > ILX > > Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...

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Colin
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Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2014 16:58
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sadlerau wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).



I think we should look at the problem this way - that SH-AWD is a fabulous system for a sports sedan, like what most of us on here would love. BUT Acura don't make a sports sedan...


^^I can absolutely agree with this. AND it doesn't necessarily negate my comments either. If they're not going to do the 'proper' sports sedan, dump SH-AWD since there is little 'consumer' value in the big picture of brand/product/customer benefit.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2014 17:32
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Nick GravesX wrote:

....................... one begins to wonder what's going on with these hacks.



You need to ask? They are caught up in the hype, aura and panache that Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini [are there any others?] have developed over the past sixty years. They are selling a statement, built up over decades, that DELIVERS high performance and cachet, beyond what BMW, Mercedes and Audi can deliver being more main stream focused. The hacks are just human.

Honda had a brief opportunity in the early nineties to hop on the train [NSX v1], but they weren't up to it, let alone had the desire to join.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2014 22:34
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Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).




This is incorrect. Both Audi and to a lesser degree Subaru spent many years advertising the performance benefits of AWD. Subaru's started mainly with all-weather capability, but they started marketing the performance benefits of it as soon as they brought the WRX stateside in a sea of FWD competitors. Mitsubishi also did the same starting back in the early 90's with the AWD Talons and 3000GT.

Audi above all else has ALWAYS marketed the handling and performance benefits of AWD, which is why the perception of Quattro is one of superior PERFORMANCE, be it all weather or maximum traction. The fact that the masses might not know the nuances of why or how it is better than its competitors is beside the point. The average person buying Quattro believes their system is giving them all of the handling of RWD cars with the all weather stability of AWD because that is how Audi has marketed it for 30 years.

Acura on the other hand hasn't really marketed anything, and despite the fact that anyone who truly knows both systems also knows that SH-AWD rewrote the book on AWD, the cold truth of it is that Acura never capitalized on that reality. They STILL haven't. Of course, it is that much harder to capitalize on such things, when your #1 familiarity with consumers is being based on the Accord/Civic or being a value luxury brand.

Again, Honda created its own Acura mess. It did NOT have to be this way, it is this way because Honda didn't know any better. The truth is that Acura could have been on par with the Germans in perception and reality now if they hadn't decided to take the cheap route.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-02-2014 22:37
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Colin wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).



I think we should look at the problem this way - that SH-AWD is a fabulous system for a sports sedan, like what most of us on here would love. BUT Acura don't make a sports sedan...


^^I can absolutely agree with this. AND it doesn't necessarily negate my comments either. If they're not going to do the 'proper' sports sedan, dump SH-AWD since there is little 'consumer' value in the big picture of brand/product/customer benefit.




All that does is further diminish the reputation of the company.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 08:31
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owequitit wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).




This is incorrect. Both Audi and to a lesser degree Subaru spent many years advertising the performance benefits of AWD. Subaru's started mainly with all-weather capability, but they started marketing the performance benefits of it as soon as they brought the WRX stateside in a sea of FWD competitors. Mitsubishi also did the same starting back in the early 90's with the AWD Talons and 3000GT.

Audi above all else has ALWAYS marketed the handling and performance benefits of AWD, which is why the perception of Quattro is one of superior PERFORMANCE, be it all weather or maximum traction. The fact that the masses might not know the nuances of why or how it is better than its competitors is beside the point. The average person buying Quattro believes their system is giving them all of the handling of RWD cars with the all weather stability of AWD because that is how Audi has marketed it for 30 years.

Acura on the other hand hasn't really marketed anything, and despite the fact that anyone who truly knows both systems also knows that SH-AWD rewrote the book on AWD, the cold truth of it is that Acura never capitalized on that reality. They STILL haven't. Of course, it is that much harder to capitalize on such things, when your #1 familiarity with consumers is being based on the Accord/Civic or being a value luxury brand.

Again, Honda created its own Acura mess. It did NOT have to be this way, it is this way because Honda didn't know any better. The truth is that Acura could have been on par with the Germans in perception and reality now if they hadn't decided to take the cheap route.



Again, this is EXACTLY the problem - the SH-AWD badge ought to have appeared on a version of every Acura, until it got Goebbel-ised into buyers' minds. Audi offered Quattro as an option even on the lowliest 80 - since it was a bolt-on from the Ur-Quattro.

That's why I couldn't understand Acura removing SH-AWD from the RDX v2.

It's also why I thought they ought to have stuffed-up the original RDX driveline into a Civic plank & called it a CSX/ILX Type-S SH-AWD a generation back. I do not believe the engineering changes were as insurmountable as some claimed.

And since the TSX and TL were two lengths of the same sausage...

And then marketed the fuck out of SH-AWD. It's only Premium Marketing 101 and not asking for anything that wasn't really readily available at the time.

Sheer dunderheadedness seems to be what got in the way.

I suppose, better late than never. But they've lost a decade of momentum with what was a unique product. Shame on them.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 08:40
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sadlerau wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:

....................... one begins to wonder what's going on with these hacks.



You need to ask? They are caught up in the hype, aura and panache that Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini [are there any others?] have developed over the past sixty years. They are selling a statement, built up over decades, that DELIVERS high performance and cachet, beyond what BMW, Mercedes and Audi can deliver being more main stream focused. The hacks are just human.

Honda had a brief opportunity in the early nineties to hop on the train [NSX v1], but they weren't up to it, let alone had the desire to join.



It was a bit rhetorical, but yes, true.

The thing is, retrospection's an easy thing and belatedly, hacks heaped a lot more praise on NSXs and even S2000s than the faint (biased!) praise they received when new. That's especially noticeable in our press, as they were much more fairly judged in the US media at the time.

Right now, Honda ought to be taking advantage of that - as it seems to be at least with the NSX (the lack of a direct S2000 or 'Teg-R replacement is very questionable) and maybe, just maybe they might wake up in time.

Could a super-ILX at least pick up on the RSX's reputation, if done right? If it's good enough, glueing on Honda Integra badges for RoW might be a prudent move from a marketing perspective. I don't expect it to make as much money as a new Fit, but that's almost beside the point right now.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 09:11
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NSX is still belittled by many "hacks" down here. Just didn't/don't understand it, nor it's involvement in resetting design parameters for exotic cars. First time I drove a Gallardo [2004 edition] I was so disappointed, my favourite looking car drove like a truck in comparison to my '98 NSX! And the Fazza 360 while much closer to the Honda in driving feel, is still more stilted and "kit carish" to my bum. So it took the exotics time to catch and surpass the ole girl. Yet it was this very lightness, suppleness that the hacks saw as inferiority!!

Honda had the opportunity in the mid nineties racing the NSX at Le Mans, but a couple of seasons of part time racing is never going to bridge the gap to Porsche's decades of factory involvement any time soon.

gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 09:56
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one than a few Acura sales told me the SH-AWD is the same system used on CR-V, that was 2009, 2010. long after the SH-AWD debut on RL.
I think the VTEC somewhat ride on the NSX wave, unfortunately there was no such vehicle to carry the SH-AWD torch...
if Subaru can put AWD on the base 2.0 or 2.5 NA engine, why can't Acura do it?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 10:32
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Nick GravesX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).




This is incorrect. Both Audi and to a lesser degree Subaru spent many years advertising the performance benefits of AWD. Subaru's started mainly with all-weather capability, but they started marketing the performance benefits of it as soon as they brought the WRX stateside in a sea of FWD competitors. Mitsubishi also did the same starting back in the early 90's with the AWD Talons and 3000GT.

Audi above all else has ALWAYS marketed the handling and performance benefits of AWD, which is why the perception of Quattro is one of superior PERFORMANCE, be it all weather or maximum traction. The fact that the masses might not know the nuances of why or how it is better than its competitors is beside the point. The average person buying Quattro believes their system is giving them all of the handling of RWD cars with the all weather stability of AWD because that is how Audi has marketed it for 30 years.

Acura on the other hand hasn't really marketed anything, and despite the fact that anyone who truly knows both systems also knows that SH-AWD rewrote the book on AWD, the cold truth of it is that Acura never capitalized on that reality. They STILL haven't. Of course, it is that much harder to capitalize on such things, when your #1 familiarity with consumers is being based on the Accord/Civic or being a value luxury brand.

Again, Honda created its own Acura mess. It did NOT have to be this way, it is this way because Honda didn't know any better. The truth is that Acura could have been on par with the Germans in perception and reality now if they hadn't decided to take the cheap route.



Again, this is EXACTLY the problem - the SH-AWD badge ought to have appeared on a version of every Acura, until it got Goebbel-ised into buyers' minds. Audi offered Quattro as an option even on the lowliest 80 - since it was a bolt-on from the Ur-Quattro.

That's why I couldn't understand Acura removing SH-AWD from the RDX v2.




I think the bean counters won out, because honestly the difference in handling is very likely invisible to 99% of RDX shoppers (negating the changes in spring and damping rates, tires, etc...). Maybe my opinion would have changed in snow/ice conditions, but honestly the first gen RDX's SH-AWD implementation just wasn't all that impressive or evident. Shawn, Hondata, and the suspension guy (I'm forgetting who it was ATM) really improved things dramatically with the Church edition RDX, but even then, it still came up a bit short of what SH-AWD has always promised.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 10:56
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JeffX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).




This is incorrect. Both Audi and to a lesser degree Subaru spent many years advertising the performance benefits of AWD. Subaru's started mainly with all-weather capability, but they started marketing the performance benefits of it as soon as they brought the WRX stateside in a sea of FWD competitors. Mitsubishi also did the same starting back in the early 90's with the AWD Talons and 3000GT.

Audi above all else has ALWAYS marketed the handling and performance benefits of AWD, which is why the perception of Quattro is one of superior PERFORMANCE, be it all weather or maximum traction. The fact that the masses might not know the nuances of why or how it is better than its competitors is beside the point. The average person buying Quattro believes their system is giving them all of the handling of RWD cars with the all weather stability of AWD because that is how Audi has marketed it for 30 years.

Acura on the other hand hasn't really marketed anything, and despite the fact that anyone who truly knows both systems also knows that SH-AWD rewrote the book on AWD, the cold truth of it is that Acura never capitalized on that reality. They STILL haven't. Of course, it is that much harder to capitalize on such things, when your #1 familiarity with consumers is being based on the Accord/Civic or being a value luxury brand.

Again, Honda created its own Acura mess. It did NOT have to be this way, it is this way because Honda didn't know any better. The truth is that Acura could have been on par with the Germans in perception and reality now if they hadn't decided to take the cheap route.



Again, this is EXACTLY the problem - the SH-AWD badge ought to have appeared on a version of every Acura, until it got Goebbel-ised into buyers' minds. Audi offered Quattro as an option even on the lowliest 80 - since it was a bolt-on from the Ur-Quattro.

That's why I couldn't understand Acura removing SH-AWD from the RDX v2.




I think the bean counters won out, because honestly the difference in handling is very likely invisible to 99% of RDX shoppers (negating the changes in spring and damping rates, tires, etc...). Maybe my opinion would have changed in snow/ice conditions, but honestly the first gen RDX's SH-AWD implementation just wasn't all that impressive or evident. Shawn, Hondata, and the suspension guy (I'm forgetting who it was ATM) really improved things dramatically with the Church edition RDX, but even then, it still came up a bit short of what SH-AWD has always promised.



That's probably the reason, but it really does not help the marketing create any cachet/USP. It was only really a sensible decision because they didn't do an SH-AWD version of everything. CF. BMW, where you can buy an M-version of everything, even if it's an M-lite. Would offering an RDX SH-AWD Type-S really not have been an option, above the existing range?

6SPDTL
Profile for 6SPDTL
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 11:11
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Maybe where you live. They would sell like hot cakes in the upper mid west and everywhere else significant snow is a factor. Why do you thing Subaru even exists making fugly slow cars?
Torque
Profile for Torque
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 11:26
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I just was on the Acura website and the marketing team spends so much damn space talking about Jewel Eyes. The focus on SH-AWD is a fraction of that at best. I get it, LED lights are so fresh and exciting to the people at Acura so now all they've done is joined the lighting club with the rest of the automakers.

Part of the reason why the general public outside of this website can't distinguish between AWD and SH-AWD let alone eSH-AWD is because there hasn't been the same type of mass marketing push year after year that Subaru and Audi has done. There is a direct association with those brands and their AWD systems. It even helps Audi's image with their non Quattro systems like in the A3.

What is Acura doing when they put more effort into marketing LED lights over an AWD system they've spent millions and millions on?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 12:25
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Nick GravesX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
I wonder if people just don't understand it?

VERY few understand it. IMO, why SH-AWD has failed to generate any positive buzz in the marketplace for Acura. I don't think it's about marketing, or the sales consultants ability to sell it (generally, I can't speak for others). I think that most customers simply don't see the need beyond the traditional all-weather benefits. And in warm climates, it's actually a negative if there is no choice (not that Acura is saying the FWD goes away).




This is incorrect. Both Audi and to a lesser degree Subaru spent many years advertising the performance benefits of AWD. Subaru's started mainly with all-weather capability, but they started marketing the performance benefits of it as soon as they brought the WRX stateside in a sea of FWD competitors. Mitsubishi also did the same starting back in the early 90's with the AWD Talons and 3000GT.

Audi above all else has ALWAYS marketed the handling and performance benefits of AWD, which is why the perception of Quattro is one of superior PERFORMANCE, be it all weather or maximum traction. The fact that the masses might not know the nuances of why or how it is better than its competitors is beside the point. The average person buying Quattro believes their system is giving them all of the handling of RWD cars with the all weather stability of AWD because that is how Audi has marketed it for 30 years.

Acura on the other hand hasn't really marketed anything, and despite the fact that anyone who truly knows both systems also knows that SH-AWD rewrote the book on AWD, the cold truth of it is that Acura never capitalized on that reality. They STILL haven't. Of course, it is that much harder to capitalize on such things, when your #1 familiarity with consumers is being based on the Accord/Civic or being a value luxury brand.

Again, Honda created its own Acura mess. It did NOT have to be this way, it is this way because Honda didn't know any better. The truth is that Acura could have been on par with the Germans in perception and reality now if they hadn't decided to take the cheap route.



Again, this is EXACTLY the problem - the SH-AWD badge ought to have appeared on a version of every Acura, until it got Goebbel-ised into buyers' minds. Audi offered Quattro as an option even on the lowliest 80 - since it was a bolt-on from the Ur-Quattro.

That's why I couldn't understand Acura removing SH-AWD from the RDX v2.




I think the bean counters won out, because honestly the difference in handling is very likely invisible to 99% of RDX shoppers (negating the changes in spring and damping rates, tires, etc...). Maybe my opinion would have changed in snow/ice conditions, but honestly the first gen RDX's SH-AWD implementation just wasn't all that impressive or evident. Shawn, Hondata, and the suspension guy (I'm forgetting who it was ATM) really improved things dramatically with the Church edition RDX, but even then, it still came up a bit short of what SH-AWD has always promised.



That's probably the reason, but it really does not help the marketing create any cachet/USP. It was only really a sensible decision because they didn't do an SH-AWD version of everything. CF. BMW, where you can buy an M-version of everything, even if it's an M-lite. Would offering an RDX SH-AWD Type-S really not have been an option, above the existing range?



Jeff brings up a good point. It would be that much more important in the CAR line where the dynamic benefits are easiest to extract. But then again, it has to have the chassis development to really make it shine, which means no old people suspenders and crappy, undersized tires and brakes.

Phil17
Profile for Phil17
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 12:49
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do you guys think the benefits of SHAWD is a little overcomplicated given other automakers uses the brakes to achieve torque vectoring?

I think it's technically more "superior" but I'm not sure how much real world benefit it actually has compared to the other make's systems. hard to gauge given the other makers have sports cars that are dynamically stronger I guess. just a though.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 17:38
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Phil17 wrote:
do you guys think the benefits of SHAWD is a little overcomplicated given other automakers uses the brakes to achieve torque vectoring?

I think it's technically more "superior" but I'm not sure how much real world benefit it actually has compared to the other make's systems. hard to gauge given the other makers have sports cars that are dynamically stronger I guess. just a though.



"Brake" vectoring RETARDS the car, SH-AWD ACCELERATES the car. Think about it. Miniscule difference it may be, but they are worlds apart in philosophy.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 20:46
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sadlerau wrote:
Phil17 wrote:
do you guys think the benefits of SHAWD is a little overcomplicated given other automakers uses the brakes to achieve torque vectoring?

I think it's technically more "superior" but I'm not sure how much real world benefit it actually has compared to the other make's systems. hard to gauge given the other makers have sports cars that are dynamically stronger I guess. just a though.



"Brake" vectoring RETARDS the car, SH-AWD ACCELERATES the car. Think about it. Miniscule difference it may be, but they are worlds apart in philosophy.




It also gives that more traditional feeling of powering out of a corner, RWD-style.

I'd like to try the latest version, which can do it on & off power, though!



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-03-2014 21:03
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Phil17 wrote:
do you guys think the benefits of SHAWD is a little overcomplicated given other automakers uses the brakes to achieve torque vectoring?

I think it's technically more "superior" but I'm not sure how much real world benefit it actually has compared to the other make's systems. hard to gauge given the other makers have sports cars that are dynamically stronger I guess. just a though.



SH-AWD is vastly superior to systems that "brake" a wheel to cause drag.

Like sadlereau said, it actually causes acceleration, whereas brake application simply causes yaw by inducing drag. That leads to higher brake temps, faster brake wear, and limits to what can be done. Honda's VSA can drag a brake if it needs to, but it can do it while simultaneously overdriving the outside wheel, which creates a much greater ability to yaw the car.

The whole thing is like VW's attempt to replace an actual helical limited slip differential on the front of the car with active braking. No matter how good they make it, it will never be as good as the actual differential.

Phil17
Profile for Phil17
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-04-2014 13:35
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got it. Thanks for the explanation guys. I guess it's true that it's a great system that's just not on a "car" that can show it off properly :(
ipribadi
Profile for ipribadi
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-04-2014 15:36
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+1 on SHAWD >>>> brake vectoring

Additional reason: when a vehicle goes into a turn the car's weight shifts to the outside wheels while the inside wheels see a reduction in load.

Brake torque vectoring is applied to the inside wheel causing possible traction loss as the tire breaks loose especially in less favorable road conditions.

SHAWD applies acceleration torque vectoring to the outside tire which in a turn has added load and traction.

typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 01:12
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Does SH-AWD work on accel only or does it work in steady state and under braking too?

The brake torque vectoring will work under all three. Not suggesting it's superior, but is very effective in limited durations.

ipribadi wrote:
+1 on SHAWD >>>> brake vectoring

Additional reason: when a vehicle goes into a turn the car's weight shifts to the outside wheels while the inside wheels see a reduction in load.

Brake torque vectoring is applied to the inside wheel causing possible traction loss as the tire breaks loose especially in less favorable road conditions.

SHAWD applies acceleration torque vectoring to the outside tire which in a turn has added load and traction.



sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 01:33
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typer_801 wrote:
Does SH-AWD work on accel only or does it work in steady state and under braking too?

The brake torque vectoring will work under all three. Not suggesting it's superior, but is very effective in limited durations.



VSA takes care of yaw in non accelerative situations. Honda's system works very well, in my CRV allowing quite large yaw angles before intervening.

Nick GravesX
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Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 06:17
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typer_801 wrote:
Does SH-AWD work on accel only or does it work in steady state and under braking too?

The brake torque vectoring will work under all three. Not suggesting it's superior, but is very effective in limited durations.

ipribadi wrote:
+1 on SHAWD >>>> brake vectoring

Additional reason: when a vehicle goes into a turn the car's weight shifts to the outside wheels while the inside wheels see a reduction in load.

Brake torque vectoring is applied to the inside wheel causing possible traction loss as the tire breaks loose especially in less favorable road conditions.

SHAWD applies acceleration torque vectoring to the outside tire which in a turn has added load and traction.





Ref. my earlier post; Honda claims to have a cross-differential effect on the TLX's 'gen 2' system - although I've as yet read no technical stuff on it.

Of course, eSHAWD can do it using regen & power. Which is terribly clever electric management.

Brake-type LSDs are considered by the hairy-ears brigade to be inferior to a proper plate or torsen-type LSD, for pretty similar reasons.

An early form of SH-FWD was called ATTS and the ability to drive the outer front wheel faster than the other three did wonders for Preludes, according to its converts.

I believe it's to do with the self-aligning effect of the tyre sidewall - you'd think that in extremis, applying more power would reach its limits of grip and increase sideslip, yet somehow it 'pulls through'.




Brutus
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Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 08:31
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Torque wrote:
I just was on the Acura website and the marketing team spends so much damn space talking about Jewel Eyes. The focus on SH-AWD is a fraction of that at best. I get it, LED lights are so fresh and exciting to the people at Acura so now all they've done is joined the lighting club with the rest of the automakers.

Part of the reason why the general public outside of this website can't distinguish between AWD and SH-AWD let alone eSH-AWD is because there hasn't been the same type of mass marketing push year after year that Subaru and Audi has done. There is a direct association with those brands and their AWD systems. It even helps Audi's image with their non Quattro systems like in the A3.

What is Acura doing when they put more effort into marketing LED lights over an AWD system they've spent millions and millions on?



Agreed, I think Acura needs to look at Audi, it is synonymous with Quattro, good name, has meaning behind it, and your impression of Audi is about planted cars going through anything, racing like it has cleats in rain, etc. Acura #1 needs to get a better name then SHHHHHHAWD. I bet Acura could do the same tag line idea as Audi and market it to death, use a good catchy name, make it sound like it is all new, show them racing Paris Dakar style all 4 wheels kickin' it. Why Honda is so into acronyms I have no idea, use a word it has more power. Every Single Acura Vehicle Should Have SHAWD Always present the car as AWD just like Audi, but offer the less expensive FWD companion.

Premium buyers are buying a life style, really all products are being sold as a lifestyle, no matter if we/they do not actually take their Subaru Outback through backroad adventure, rafting, discovering swimming holes, finding huge scary animals... but just pick up their two kids from school, grab some groceries, and drop them off at soccer practice.

B.

How many years have we been saying this!

Nick GravesX
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Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 09:28
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Brutus wrote:
Torque wrote:
I just was on the Acura website and the marketing team spends so much damn space talking about Jewel Eyes. The focus on SH-AWD is a fraction of that at best. I get it, LED lights are so fresh and exciting to the people at Acura so now all they've done is joined the lighting club with the rest of the automakers.

Part of the reason why the general public outside of this website can't distinguish between AWD and SH-AWD let alone eSH-AWD is because there hasn't been the same type of mass marketing push year after year that Subaru and Audi has done. There is a direct association with those brands and their AWD systems. It even helps Audi's image with their non Quattro systems like in the A3.

What is Acura doing when they put more effort into marketing LED lights over an AWD system they've spent millions and millions on?



Agreed, I think Acura needs to look at Audi, it is synonymous with Quattro, good name, has meaning behind it, and your impression of Audi is about planted cars going through anything, racing like it has cleats in rain, etc. Acura #1 needs to get a better name then SHHHHHHAWD. I bet Acura could do the same tag line idea as Audi and market it to death, use a good catchy name, make it sound like it is all new, show them racing Paris Dakar style all 4 wheels kickin' it. Why Honda is so into acronyms I have no idea, use a word it has more power. Every Single Acura Vehicle Should Have SHAWD Always present the car as AWD just like Audi, but offer the less expensive FWD companion.

Premium buyers are buying a life style, really all products are being sold as a lifestyle, no matter if we/they do not actually take their Subaru Outback through backroad adventure, rafting, discovering swimming holes, finding huge scary animals... but just pick up their two kids from school, grab some groceries, and drop them off at soccer practice.

B.

How many years have we been saying this!



Decades! And look how well Audi has progressed. Though admittedly like Honda, Subaru really hasn't done as well over here as it has in the USA. In that case, the cars should have been a bit more 'premium' - sort of like Volvo is.

Actually, the acronym is very much a Japanese thing. Remember the '80s cars, which used to have the strangest acronyms boasting all their technology down the back & sides in transfers?

Brutus
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Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 09:50
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I am curious since you are saying the acronym thing is a Japanese thing, how do they say it in normal conversation. How do they market it?

Well with Acura supposed to be their own section of the Honda giant, maybe we will see some changes.

Speaking of AWD, I can tell you if Honda wanted a bigger piece of the pie here in the Northeast, offering AWD Accord, a real Outback competitor, and they would get a large piece of the action Subaru enjoys, simply since they have AWD. I can't tell you how many people I know would buy a Honda but they do not want an SUV and can't afford to pay a premium so get a Subaru, then those that can pay a premium buy an Audi, why because of Quattro, people do not associate Acura sedans with AWD.

So parents buy a Subaru, then the kids buy a Subaru, then move up to an Audi. They must see the demographics in the country what stuff sells where.

Last month Subaru sold over 14,000 outbacks, yeah Subaru, yeah a freakin ugly wagon, they get uglier every new model design, I used to like them but not now. Legacy sold almost 6000 units. Yeah 20,000 potential customers who did not even bother with Honda in 1 month.

B.

BG
Profile for BG
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 10:55
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Brutus wrote:
I am curious since you are saying the acronym thing is a Japanese thing, how do they say it in normal conversation. How do they market it?

Well with Acura supposed to be their own section of the Honda giant, maybe we will see some changes.

Speaking of AWD, I can tell you if Honda wanted a bigger piece of the pie here in the Northeast, offering AWD Accord, a real Outback competitor, and they would get a large piece of the action Subaru enjoys, simply since they have AWD. I can't tell you how many people I know would buy a Honda but they do not want an SUV and can't afford to pay a premium so get a Subaru, then those that can pay a premium buy an Audi, why because of Quattro, people do not associate Acura sedans with AWD.

So parents buy a Subaru, then the kids buy a Subaru, then move up to an Audi. They must see the demographics in the country what stuff sells where.

Last month Subaru sold over 14,000 outbacks, yeah Subaru, yeah a freakin ugly wagon, they get uglier every new model design, I used to like them but not now. Legacy sold almost 6000 units. Yeah 20,000 potential customers who did not even bother with Honda in 1 month.

B.



Tell them to buy the Crosstour then!!

Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: ILX AWD coming sooner than you think...    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2014 12:50
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BG wrote:
Brutus wrote:
I am curious since you are saying the acronym thing is a Japanese thing, how do they say it in normal conversation. How do they market it?

Well with Acura supposed to be their own section of the Honda giant, maybe we will see some changes.

Speaking of AWD, I can tell you if Honda wanted a bigger piece of the pie here in the Northeast, offering AWD Accord, a real Outback competitor, and they would get a large piece of the action Subaru enjoys, simply since they have AWD. I can't tell you how many people I know would buy a Honda but they do not want an SUV and can't afford to pay a premium so get a Subaru, then those that can pay a premium buy an Audi, why because of Quattro, people do not associate Acura sedans with AWD.

So parents buy a Subaru, then the kids buy a Subaru, then move up to an Audi. They must see the demographics in the country what stuff sells where.

Last month Subaru sold over 14,000 outbacks, yeah Subaru, yeah a freakin ugly wagon, they get uglier every new model design, I used to like them but not now. Legacy sold almost 6000 units. Yeah 20,000 potential customers who did not even bother with Honda in 1 month.

B.



Tell them to buy the Crosstour then!!



The crosstour is uglier then the outback.


 
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