Waatdaehell
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I've always wondered why Acura strayed away from the 3rd Gen TL design. The 3rd Generation was such a huge leap forward for Acura, in terms of design and presence. And from what I've read, it was one of Acura's most well-received and liked designs. I don't understand why it had to be so drastically changed when the 4th Gen came around. I'd buy the 3rd Gen TL today if it was still available, but never ever the 4th Gen.
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JeffX
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Waatdaehell wrote:
I've always wondered why Acura strayed away from the 3rd Gen TL design. The 3rd Generation was such a huge leap forward for Acura, in terms of design and presence. And from what I've read, it was one of Acura's most well-received and liked designs. I don't understand why it had to be so drastically changed when the 4th Gen came around. I'd buy the 3rd Gen TL today if it was still available, but never ever the 4th Gen.
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I echoed most of those sentiments to Jon Ikeda yesterday. He sort of danced around the issue. Eventually he said they 4th TL was designed to be bold and excessive, sort of in the vein of the Escalade (a vehicle which I absolutely despise to the very core, which justifies my gag reflex upon first seeing the 4th TL). He pointed out that "in those days" the people were spending the money were looking for "statements" like that. That philosophy is very different from my own personal outlook - I don't have a problem with things that stand out, but the key selling point has to be something with credibility - not just a superficial look.
It's too bad Acura decided to take that path because I think it set them back quite a bit. Now, if the look came along with a world beating vehicle, I probably would have let the styling slide. The TL is a good vehicle but it's not really a standout and the underpinnings just didn't have the bloodline to support that sort of styling effort.
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Waldo
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Jeff wrote:
I echoed most of those sentiments to Jon Ikeda yesterday. He sort of danced around the issue. Eventually he said they 4th TL was designed to be bold and excessive, sort of in the vein of the Escalade (a vehicle which I absolutely despise to the very core, which justifies my gag reflex upon first seeing the 4th TL). He pointed out that "in those days" the people were spending the money were looking for "statements" like that. That philosophy is very different from my own personal outlook - I don't have a problem with things that stand out, but the key selling point has to be something with credibility - not just a superficial look.
It's too bad Acura decided to take that path because I think it set them back quite a bit. Now, if the look came along with a world beating vehicle, I probably would have let the styling slide. The TL is a good vehicle but it's not really a standout and the underpinnings just didn't have the bloodline to support that sort of styling effort.
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Interesting comments, Jeff. I agree with your assessment as to the relationship of the vehicle to the "bold" look.
Acura does have to do something bold to get back in the game. "Smart Luxury" needs to have something to back up the "smart" part. How about giving the customer something to feel smart about purchasing an Acura? Take a tip from Hyundai. Give the customer the luxury, and Acura identity (the toned down new grille is fine), and a bold QUALITY statement. Raise the price a bit and include a 120K mile, 8 year bumper to bumper warranty. That would make Acura a smart purchase. Such a warranty is already offered as an aftermarket item. Why not just include it?
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sugaki
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If the 3rd-gen TL was out now with SH-AWD, would've bought it. The newer design is so much worse... why did they feel the need to scrap one of their best designs ever? So ridiculous.
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Waatdaehell
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Jeff wrote:
Waatdaehell wrote:
I've always wondered why Acura strayed away from the 3rd Gen TL design. The 3rd Generation was such a huge leap forward for Acura, in terms of design and presence. And from what I've read, it was one of Acura's most well-received and liked designs. I don't understand why it had to be so drastically changed when the 4th Gen came around. I'd buy the 3rd Gen TL today if it was still available, but never ever the 4th Gen.
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I echoed most of those sentiments to Jon Ikeda yesterday. He sort of danced around the issue. Eventually he said they 4th TL was designed to be bold and excessive, sort of in the vein of the Escalade (a vehicle which I absolutely despise to the very core, which justifies my gag reflex upon first seeing the 4th TL). He pointed out that "in those days" the people were spending the money were looking for "statements" like that. That philosophy is very different from my own personal outlook - I don't have a problem with things that stand out, but the key selling point has to be something with credibility - not just a superficial look.
It's too bad Acura decided to take that path because I think it set them back quite a bit. Now, if the look came along with a world beating vehicle, I probably would have let the styling slide. The TL is a good vehicle but it's not really a standout and the underpinnings just didn't have the bloodline to support that sort of styling effort.
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Exactly! There are certain cars out there that I don't think are very attractive, but I wouldn't mind purchasing. These vehicles serve their purpose well and are near top of class. The current Civic comes to mind (at least when it first appeared on the market).
I know this vehicle is a totally different type of vehicle, but Acura should have learned from Ford with the Taurus debacle. The Taurus was the best selling vehicle from 1992-1996. Yet, for some unknown reason, Ford decided to change the Taurus entirely for the 1996 model. Ford went with the horrible "oval" design scheme. Everything was oval, including the front windshield and rear window. The styling scheme even went inside to the center console. And suddenly, Taurus sales sank and have never recovered.
Not to say that the TL would have broken any sales record, but the 3rd Gen was so successful and so well received, just imagine the potential it had to elevate the Acura "Smart Performance" brand. Maybe they should have stayed with Precision Crafted Performance.
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aznxthuggie
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To me, the 3rd gen MMC TL Type-S was the BEST looking TL ever made. My neighbor has a white one and we both drool at eachothers cars daily. Yes, he stares at my 4G, not sure whether he's disgusted or he thinks it looks nice, i've never stopped to ask.
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dampfnudel
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aznxthuggie wrote:
To me, the 3rd gen MMC TL Type-S was the BEST looking TL ever made. My neighbor has a white one and we both drool at eachothers cars daily. Yes, he stares at my 4G, not sure whether he's disgusted or he thinks it looks nice, i've never stopped to ask.
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Maybe you should ask him one of these days. Something tells me he likes the styling of his TL better, but wouldn't mind having some of your TL's new features. That's how I feel about my '07 TL when I see a 4G. He would probably change his mind a little if you were to upgrade to the 2012 or 2013 model. There was only so much that could be done with the MMC and Acura did an admirable job, hopefully a preview of a even better looking 5G.
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mac_powah
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I think the 3G TL was a very attractive car, but I don't think it commands the same level of presence as the 4G TL. I don't think the 3G had a very upscale look to it - something to me was off there. I think the new one looks more the part - especially NOW after that incredible update... amazing what a little finagling can do. This car is now IMO the best TL ever.
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Nick GravesX
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Jeff wrote:
Waatdaehell wrote:
I've always wondered why Acura strayed away from the 3rd Gen TL design. The 3rd Generation was such a huge leap forward for Acura, in terms of design and presence. And from what I've read, it was one of Acura's most well-received and liked designs. I don't understand why it had to be so drastically changed when the 4th Gen came around. I'd buy the 3rd Gen TL today if it was still available, but never ever the 4th Gen.
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I echoed most of those sentiments to Jon Ikeda yesterday. He sort of danced around the issue. Eventually he said they 4th TL was designed to be bold and excessive, sort of in the vein of the Escalade (a vehicle which I absolutely despise to the very core, which justifies my gag reflex upon first seeing the 4th TL). He pointed out that "in those days" the people were spending the money were looking for "statements" like that. That philosophy is very different from my own personal outlook - I don't have a problem with things that stand out, but the key selling point has to be something with credibility - not just a superficial look.
It's too bad Acura decided to take that path because I think it set them back quite a bit. Now, if the look came along with a world beating vehicle, I probably would have let the styling slide. The TL is a good vehicle but it's not really a standout and the underpinnings just didn't have the bloodline to support that sort of styling effort.
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Suspicions confirmed dept!
It's why I perversely prefer economic busts to booms; the overheated credit cycle turns normal people into utterly vulgar, tasteless tards.
Maybe we can get back to nice little Hondas now.
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Chris David
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Jeff, thanks for the insight into the madness at Acura. It helps understanding the hideous trend they've taken even if it doesn't excuse it. I always thought the best looking Acuras, 1st gen TSX, Legend, 3rd gen TL, looked quietly aggressive rather than bold and obnoxious.
Is it just me or were both Damon and Jon hinting at their disgust with a lot of the design features on the 4th gen TL?
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Fatebringer
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mac_powah wrote:
I think the 3G TL was a very attractive car, but I don't think it commands the same level of presence as the 4G TL. I don't think the 3G had a very upscale look to it - something to me was off there. I think the new one looks more the part - especially NOW after that incredible update... amazing what a little finagling can do. This car is now IMO the best TL ever.
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I agree, I bought a 2008 TL a few months before the 2009's came out (a few weeks before anyone knew what it looked like). And there was a lot of the new car that I liked much much better than my car. I just thought the prior generation looked dated after the new car came out.
Yes the beak needed to go and the "tramp stamp" rear looked even worse, but I passed a grey one in the dark about a week ago and thought "that car looks good"
Big improvement with the updates.
(though I have a 2011 RDX now so I'm out of the market for a few years).
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Nick GravesX
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Chris David wrote:
Jeff, thanks for the insight into the madness at Acura. It helps understanding the hideous trend they've taken even if it doesn't excuse it. I always thought the best looking Acuras, 1st gen TSX, Legend, 3rd gen TL, looked quietly aggressive rather than bold and obnoxious.
Is it just me or were both Damon and Jon hinting at their disgust with a lot of the design features on the 4th gen TL?
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TBH, I think that might explain what I suspect; Acura's designers didn't 'get' the tasteless era and had a hard time trying to make it work.
Looked at form that perspective, 'smart luxury' must be a lot closer to the corporate integrity.
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DOFE
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Nick Graves wrote:
TBH, I think that might explain what I suspect; Acura's designers didn't 'get' the tasteless era and had a hard time trying to make it work.
Looked at form that perspective, 'smart luxury' must be a lot closer to the corporate integrity.
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Corporate integrity would have been refining the 3G TL's understated design. Instead, what we got seems closer to opportunism saddled by incompetence (perhaps a bit harsh) -- trying to take advantage of a trend but botching it.
I do think you're right and it seems Acura's designers were floundering during that era.
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jbkingjr
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DOFE wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
TBH, I think that might explain what I suspect; Acura's designers didn't 'get' the tasteless era and had a hard time trying to make it work.
Looked at form that perspective, 'smart luxury' must be a lot closer to the corporate integrity.
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Corporate integrity would have been refining the 3G TL's understated design. Instead, what we got seems closer to opportunism saddled by incompetence (perhaps a bit harsh) -- trying to take advantage of a trend but botching it.
I do think you're right and it seems Acura's designers were floundering during that era.
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The interesting thing is I don't think they botched it--I've seen a 4G TL with the license plate "XZIBIT". I'm not making this up.
This revelation of what they were going for kinda pisses me off. Chasing after buyers that go for such things as the Escalade. IMO they deserved all the flack they got and then some. Excess in the sense of bathing in all the luxury, technology, and driving pleasure you can get are one thing (and preferred for true luxury cars IMO) but products in the vein of the Escalade are just overdone and begging for attention for all the wrong reasons. That move speaks of accountants looking to capitalize on an easy to please market (that was also overly so eager to spend inordinant sums of money) rather than investing money in the company and making products that stand out on their merits. I really hope they've learned their lesson and turned the corner this time.
Elegant, understated and competent, Acura. GM should be the LAST company you try to emulate. I thought this was common knowledge.
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JeffX
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jbkingjr wrote:
DOFE wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
TBH, I think that might explain what I suspect; Acura's designers didn't 'get' the tasteless era and had a hard time trying to make it work.
Looked at form that perspective, 'smart luxury' must be a lot closer to the corporate integrity.
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Corporate integrity would have been refining the 3G TL's understated design. Instead, what we got seems closer to opportunism saddled by incompetence (perhaps a bit harsh) -- trying to take advantage of a trend but botching it.
I do think you're right and it seems Acura's designers were floundering during that era.
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The interesting thing is I don't think they botched it--I've seen a 4G TL with the license plate "XZIBIT". I'm not making this up.
This revelation of what they were going for kinda pisses me off. Chasing after buyers that go for such things as the Escalade. IMO they deserved all the flack they got and then some. Excess in the sense of bathing in all the luxury, technology, and driving pleasure you can get are one thing (and preferred for true luxury cars IMO) but products in the vein of the Escalade are just overdone and begging for attention for all the wrong reasons. That move speaks of accountants looking to capitalize on an easy to please market (that was also overly so eager to spend inordinant sums of money) rather than investing money in the company and making products that stand out on their merits. I really hope they've learned their lesson and turned the corner this time.
Elegant, understated and competent, Acura. GM should be the LAST company you try to emulate. I thought this was common knowledge.
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tchk... BINGO! </Cousin Eddie>
seriously, you nailed my exact thoughts on the matter. Acura shouldn't be about a superficial image based upon some cheesy veneer - it should be built upon a solid foundation of engineering, value, performance, and quality. All of those virtues lead directly to credibility in the marketplace and are the very reasons Honda has been such a success in its respective market segments. I really hope this is something that Acura is serious about focusing their efforts upon. Otherwise they will just keep on spinning their wheels and not gaining any real traction.
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Waldo
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jbkingjr wrote:
The interesting thing is I don't think they botched it--I've seen a 4G TL with the license plate "XZIBIT". I'm not making this up.
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Exibitionists seldom would be self-aware enough to have that license plate.
I'm more inclined to believe that the Acura TL's owner was somehow involved with the exhibit industry. I have an acquaintance that does design work for a company that designs and builds trade show exhibits for large corporations. An exhibit such as those at major auto shows can cost in excess of $300,000 just for the design and build.
It is to Acura's credit that they attract successful talented professionals.
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JeffX
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Waldo wrote:
jbkingjr wrote:
The interesting thing is I don't think they botched it--I've seen a 4G TL with the license plate "XZIBIT". I'm not making this up.
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Exibitionists seldom would be self-aware enough to have that license plate.
I'm more inclined to believe that the Acura TL's owner was somehow involved with the exhibit industry. I have an acquaintance that does design work for a company that designs and builds trade show exhibits for large corporations. An exhibit such as those at major auto shows can cost in excess of $300,000 just for the design and build.
It is to Acura's credit that they attract successful talented professionals.
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or maybe it was simpler than that:
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integrator
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The only thing missing on the end of that diamond neck chain is the power plenum.
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4thaccord
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I know these guys aren't public speakers, but geesh Acura, get people who have some personality and are upbeat. You have to sell this stuff. Schell and Ikeda look and sound like they're at a funeral.
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JeffX
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4thaccord wrote:
I know these guys aren't public speakers, but geesh Acura, get people who have some personality and are upbeat. You have to sell this stuff. Schell and Ikeda look and sound like they're at a funeral.
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Dave Marek is really comfortable on camera.
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CB77
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Well, then let him stay in front of the camera...and out of the design studio. His beak design theme has done Acura untold damage...
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jbkingjr
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CB77 wrote:
Well, then let him stay in front of the camera...and out of the design studio. His beak design theme has done Acura untold damage...
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I'm just as upset as anyone about the look of the current TL, but let's be real--Dave Marek wasn't the only one that approved the look of the car. He possibly wasn't even responsible for the genesis of the idea. Jeff said a few posts up what kind of people Acura was targeting. If you were told that as a designer, what would you have created?
I'm not saying he's completely innocent, but he's not the only one that should be held accountable. Namely the accountants and accountant-types that decided it would be better for them to abandon all of Honda's virtues (let the engineering speak for itself) and everything that gave Acura what little cred it had and instead aim at the lowest common denominator. If someone's going to burn at the stake for this, I would rather it be all those responsible so Acura can finally get on the right path.
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