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FiSH-Chan
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I don't know of this is the right place to post, but here's some food for thought.
I'm sure we're all familiar with Honda's IMA.
I've been thinking about it alot lately and I thought they could come up with more clever ways to implement them, and as it is in CR-Z form its about 60kg I bet they could find some way to get it down to 40kg or even lower.
And also, I find the 'Clarkson complaint' about IMA that it has 'two motors' unjustified, because if you think of IMA as an addon, then it is nothing more redundant than say, a turbocharger.
But anyways.
Currently they have Eco, Normal and Sport modes.. why not a "Boost" mode? IMA boost won't activate under normal circumstances, will quietly charge more often, and when pressing a button say somewhere on the steering while the accelerator is held down, will add 'torque on demand' to the engine.
Would this be possible? I imagine it would be. Of course, this should be implemented in the sportiest cars, (no weak engine). Maybe a Type R implementation would be nice.
Also, would the costs eventually be low enough to implement across all models? I hope it would be. Or at least for non-sport models, Eco & Normal only, a simplified IMA system where the engine stops fuel at very low speeds or traffic lights.
Of course, the chief complaints are some jerkiness (I don't know how bad this is but I think it is less of an issue than it is) but maybe Honda will address the issue at some point.
Lastly, I haen't seen on this forum yet, I stumbled across this link on wikipedia that says the Honda Dualnote technology will eventually make its way down to new Honda Legend IMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Motor_Assist
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siegen
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I think incorporating IMA across all vehicles would be very advantageous. It would result in a nice bump in city mileage and would reduce city emissions greatly.
IMA has steadily been reduced in size and price with each generation, so it's only a matter of time before something like this is realistic. Right now the biggest hurdle is probably the battery. NiMH batteries are too big and heavy, and Li-ion batteries are too expensive.
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TonyEX
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I think that eventually an IMA with integral CVT built into each wheel makes the most sense. Dump the motor engine all together.
That way you get SH-AWD and full electric.. you could use a plug in electric, a fuel cell, a series hybrid, or whatever tickled your fancy.
Note too that I think IMA should be move outside of the longitudinal centerline of the crankshaft. it makes much more sense that way for packaging reasons.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=816846
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=812683
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FiSH-Chan
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TonyE wrote:
I think that eventually an IMA with integral CVT built into each wheel makes the most sense. Dump the motor engine all together.
Note too that I think IMA should be move outside of the longitudinal centerline of the crankshaft. it makes much more sense that way for packaging reasons.
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Wow, thanks for the links. Thats a nice thought out. Read it with great interest. I thought about adding to your thread but decided against it since it is basically talking a whole new redesign whereas this thread is more about the current design.
Obviously yours is a more radical approach, but it does seem to take away some of the simplicity of the current IMA approach. Also, I've read that Honda IMA is the only hyrbid system that can run without the battery pack (ie batts or eletric motor die, you just revert to gas engine. not sure about the validity of it but that is definitely something i'd buy for long term reliability).. would your version of the IMA do that? Because I have some idea how it is, just not too clear on it exactly.
A question for the IMA owners (or for those who know) , let's say with the current IMA Civics or Insights, the engine runs out of fuel, or breaks a drive belt or something, disabling the gas engine. Will the car creep on the electric motor in cripple mode to the nearest gas station / repair shop?
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TonyEX
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
TonyE wrote:
I think that eventually an IMA with integral CVT built into each wheel makes the most sense. Dump the motor engine all together.
Note too that I think IMA should be move outside of the longitudinal centerline of the crankshaft. it makes much more sense that way for packaging reasons.
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Wow, thanks for the links. Thats a nice thought out. Read it with great interest. I thought about adding to your thread but decided against it since it is basically talking a whole new redesign whereas this thread is more about the current design.
Obviously yours is a more radical approach, but it does seem to take away some of the simplicity of the current IMA approach. Also, I've read that Honda IMA is the only hyrbid system that can run without the battery pack (ie batts or eletric motor die, you just revert to gas engine. not sure about the validity of it but that is definitely something i'd buy for long term reliability).. would your version of the IMA do that? Because I have some idea how it is, just not too clear on it exactly.
A question for the IMA owners (or for those who know) , let's say with the current IMA Civics or Insights, the engine runs out of fuel, or breaks a drive belt or something, disabling the gas engine. Will the car creep on the electric motor in cripple mode to the nearest gas station / repair shop?
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(1) If the gas engine craps out you need a tow truck. IMA is just an assist.
(2) I think the natural finish line for IMA will be a compact system with a built in CVT to the motor. If that were to be around 60bhp/ 60ft/lbs of torque) it would allow for AWD/RWD/FWD applications right at the wheel.
(3) Yes the current design is simple: replace the flywheel with a motor/generator. But it does have drawbacks if you want to increase the power of the IMA because it adds more mass on line to the motor (heavier flywheel). A solution around this is to add a clutch or a gear set to change the effective mass loading and to allow the motor to be more lively. As it now stands, the engine in the Civic Hybrid is not very "lively". Part of this, of course, is the CVT, but part of that may be limitations from the motor/generator inertia. The engine is very smooth at idle, though.
(4) The IMA system proper can not run without the battery pack. The engine runs by itself though. So, so long as you got gas you'll get there.
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FiSH-Chan
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Okay, still on this topic, a friend just bought a Civic Hybrid and I got the chance to experience in person how it works.
A thought: Was the motor not powerful enough to move the car and then start the engine in unison? e.g. engine is always off until you press the accel, the car will move, simultaneously starting the engine. Currently the engine still idles except in some conditions. Why not a non-idle engine approach.
If everything else was kept as it is, but with this change here, I think it would be more impressive and provide better fuel efficiency especially for people who like to idle a lot.
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TonyEX
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Okay, still on this topic, a friend just bought a Civic Hybrid and I got the chance to experience in person how it works.
A thought: Was the motor not powerful enough to move the car and then start the engine in unison? e.g. engine is always off until you press the accel, the car will move, simultaneously starting the engine. Currently the engine still idles except in some conditions. Why not a non-idle engine approach.
If everything else was kept as it is, but with this change here, I think it would be more impressive and provide better fuel efficiency especially for people who like to idle a lot.
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In stop and go traffic you gain lots of MPG by shutting down the engine. Often times, the engine will shut down as you are driving slowly or just slowing down to a crawl.
You can see the effect of the engine idling on mileage easily. Park the car and let the engine idle. Take a look at the MPG meter. It keeps dropping pretty fast.
Now then, on the engine not shutting down sometimes.... IMA does have some logic in it that often times is hard to figure out from the user's point of view. I've noticed that if the battery pack is low the engine won't shut off, I've also noticed that if you are running a heavy electrical load: AC, fan, headlights, the engine may not shut off as often... perhaps it tries to run the alternator to keep the "other" battery charged.
This affects the Civic Hybrid because it uses electric motors to keep the AC and accessories running even when the engine auto shuts off. The Insight doesn't have this feature which I guess will affect either (a) the mileage or (b) the comfort level in the cabin.
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fladdams2k1
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Current HCH I owner here..not overly impressed with IMA.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Honda should actually only offer two IMA vehicles; Civic Hybrid and possibly a CR-V Hybrid with a Civic getting over 50 mpg and a CR-V getting low 30's. They need to offer something in the mini ute segment and since its built on the Civic platform, the CR-V should be an easy adaptation. They also need to re-vamp the IMA system and figure out a way to squeeze out more MPG. Maybe larger electric motors and affording it the ability to travel small distances on battery alone ala the Prius. Sorry but Li-Ion isn't going to provide a significant boost to MPG in the Civic Hybrid. It will likely amount to nothing more than a higher price, slight reduction in weight and a marginal increase in MPG. The REAL increase in MPG is yet to be determined...
Finally, with Honda offering everything except toilets as a Hybrid lately they really need to start thinking about how to improve the warranties on the battery and IMA systems. Warranties should be 10 years, unlimited mileage and transferrable on the batteries and IMA - PERIOD. If they're intent on flooding the market with electric/battery-dependent autos, the least they could do is stand behind the products responsibly and consistently. There's too much variance out there on how they're addressing battery failures.
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TonyEX
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fladdams2k wrote:
Current HCH I owner here..not overly impressed with IMA.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Honda should actually only offer two IMA vehicles; Civic Hybrid and possibly a CR-V Hybrid with a Civic getting over 50 mpg and a CR-V getting low 30's. They need to offer something in the mini ute segment and since its built on the Civic platform, the CR-V should be an easy adaptation. They also need to re-vamp the IMA system and figure out a way to squeeze out more MPG. Maybe larger electric motors and affording it the ability to travel small distances on battery alone ala the Prius. Sorry but Li-Ion isn't going to provide a significant boost to MPG in the Civic Hybrid. It will likely amount to nothing more than a higher price, slight reduction in weight and a marginal increase in MPG. The REAL increase in MPG is yet to be determined...
Finally, with Honda offering everything except toilets as a Hybrid lately they really need to start thinking about how to improve the warranties on the battery and IMA systems. Warranties should be 10 years, unlimited mileage and transferrable on the batteries and IMA - PERIOD. If they're intent on flooding the market with electric/battery-dependent autos, the least they could do is stand behind the products responsibly and consistently. There's too much variance out there on how they're addressing battery failures.
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I dunno.... IMA doesn't react quickly so the car does feel lethargic. I think that moving the electric motor off the main crankshaft and connecting it via it's own CVT would make sense because it would allow the electric motor to run at its most efficient (ie: torque). So, I think the powertrain should be:
1) computer controlled AT5 in line with crankshaft
2) CVT connecting the AT5 to the electric motor/generator.
3) The CVT should be connected after the torque converter in the transmission. (or at least a clutch should be inserted between the engine and the torque converter).
This CVT would not have to be as large because it would be designed to only carry the torque/power of the electric motor.
I would too like to see a larger electric motor... something in the order of 30bhp with 50ft/lbs. With it's CVT this would give a LOT of ooomph to the engine which could be kept to 1.3L.
Connecting the CVT after the torque converter will allow all electric running.
The problem I see is that when the engine is shut down and disconnected from the transmission (electric running) it won't have a flywheel....
Battery wise. I think the warranty in California is pretty long already and AHM has released new firmware for IMA to address battery discharging and longevity.
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