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Stream K20A
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Fellow Honda Freaks,
Although I have posted this post in the "strictly technical" section, I wanted to see if Honda fans outside the US can Help.
I live in Hong Kong and I own a Honda Stream (a small 7 seater based on the Cvic / DC5 chassis) It came equipped with a K20A but its rated at 156 HP and the the compression ratio is 9.8 versus 220 HP and 11+ compression ratio on the K20A on the DC5 (AKA Intergra type R).
I am trying to upgrade my Stream's K20A to "near" DC5's K20A Spec. Does anyone know where I can get a detailed comparison of the Two K20As (including part numbers)?
I have only found limited information on the net (In english) on my Car. Its as follows:
2004 Stream 2.0L 2WD (RN3)
Five speed Auto with selectspeed
Engine: K20A I-vtec, Chain Driven DOHC
Bore x Stroke =86.0 X 86.0
Displacement 1998cc
Compression Ratio 9.7
Output: 158ps@6500rpm, 19.2kg*m@4000rpm
Please see if any one can help! Thanks!
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98ek9
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To be honest with you if you are going to spend the money on upgrading your K20A to DC5 spec its not worth it. You may as well just drop in a K20A DC5 engine in instead. Probably what I said doesnt help you in anyway but thats just my opinion. By the way I was born and raised in Hong Kong. I moved to Canada for about 13 years. I'm planning on going back there in Dec. 2004.
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notyper
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98ek9 is correct.
The 220 ps K20A is substantially different. For starters, the bottom end of the engine is substantially more robust. The rods are bigger and stronger and the crank is more stout as well.
Moving to the top end, the cylinder head of the DC5 K20A is substantially better as well (in terms of flow). Furthermore, the K20A uses 3-rocker VTEC on both cams, while the Stream motor only uses it on the intake side. Finally, little things like the intake manifold, throttle body, etc. are all improved on the DC5 engine. To upgrade your engine, you'd need to throw away pretty much everything outside of the block. It would be cheaper to just buy the DC5 engine outright.
SC
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gila
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You could find a buyer for your current engine and save a bit there. Since you're not in any rush, there's got to be someone who wants to dump a 150+ ps K20 engine into a jazz/fit or even the City. Just an idea.
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AccordR
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As fellow members has stated, quite a lot of changes to the engine is needed. Its less of a headache to source for a type r engine.
Increasing the power is one thing. The chassis of the stream, at least from the manufacturer, is not meant to take that much horses. The stream is a people mover, not a sports car.
You will need to upgrade your brakes, suspension and strengthen the chassis, ecu etc.
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JMU R1
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AccordR wrote:
As fellow members has stated, quite a lot of changes to the engine is needed. Its less of a headache to source for a type r engine.
Increasing the power is one thing. The chassis of the stream, at least from the manufacturer, is not meant to take that much horses. The stream is a people mover, not a sports car.
You will need to upgrade your brakes, suspension and strengthen the chassis, ecu etc.
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Eh.... If you put substantially more power in something like a Stream it would be a good idea to probably get some higher performance brake pads and tires but I wouldn't say you need to upgrade the chassis, ecu, and suspension.
It totally depends on your goals. If your goal is to have a faster daily driver then you probably don't need to worry much about suspension unless you feel the stock suspension is inadequate. If you want to put together a competent upgraded vehicle then it would be a good idea to get upgraded suspension.
As for the chassis not being able to handle the power, I don't buy it. The Stream is basically a Civic minivan and the Civic has no problems handling 220 hp. If he were talking 300 hp that might be different.
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Stream K20A
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Thanks for the comments guys.
Well, getting a used K20A is not that expensive in HK but My Stream comes with a 5 speed auto and I do not think that it can take that much added power without seriously affecting its lifespan. Changing to a 6 speed is too involved for me.
Most importantly, My stream is a 2004 model and it wouldn't make sense to swap an old transmission and engine into the car.
To a certain extent, I would have to agree with JMU R1, The stream is based on the civic chassis and 220hp should not be too much. Further, I am looking to reach only 190-200hp from various upgrades to my "sissy" K20A. How can a engine with the same code (K20A) have so different specs? Can anyone give me some pointers as to where to begin the upgrade?
Thanks for your help
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Stream K20A
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Dear Notyper and other honda Fans,
How do you guys know so much about the Stream's K20A? Can you point me to a place (or places) with more detailed specs?
Thanks a million.
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AccordR
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Hi, JMU R1, thanks for making your point.
Let me clarify my points.
The Civic and Stream may be based on the same platform, but plonking a Type R engine into a Stream is not going to convert it into a Stream Type R.
The chassis of the Civic Type R is different from normal Civics. It has been stiffened with heavier, higher grade steel at its critical points. Honda did it for good reasons, to increase rigidity and reduce body roll.
I take your point that not changing the chassis will not cause the Stream to break apart.
The point I am bringing across is that with the increase in power comes the need to be able to handle/control that increased power.
Anyone making an effort to put a type r engine into his car is not going to drive his car a ?little bit harder?. Correct me if I am wrong, the intended Stream is going to be a sleeper, springing surprises on other more covertly sporty cars.
Most of us are not rally drivers. We need some buffer to help us in driving, especially near the limit of the cars.
So changes to the car, be it in the suspension to adding anti-roll bar etc, enhance its driveability and control, making it safer for both driver and other road users.
I am sure ?Stream K20A? brother has already considered these factors even though he did not mention in his email.
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WongKN
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Sorry for being late into the 'party'. Been having a good chinese new year holiday.
Anyway, I think the others have already explained the main difference between the Stream's K20A and the DC5R's K20A. Basically, the more significant differences are :
1. Stream K20A has VTEC on only the intake. DC5R has it on both. The camshafts, valve size, etc are of course different too.
2. Stream K20A intake mainfold is dual runner design. DC5R intake manifold is short length runners, intended for maximum airflow at high rpms (contrast this with the regular Accord's K20A which is also single runners but longer lengths, for better midrange power).
3. The ECU will be different as well, obviously. Another important factor is while I am not sure about the HongKong editions, the ones here (Malaysia) have ECU based immoboliser systems which prevents the swap of ECU without re-programming with the ignition key.
The above are very rough generalisations of course. There are a lot more detailed differences which either I do not know the detail (as in the exact difference) or are too involved to mention.
If you want to squeeze a bit more power out of the Stream's K20A, from 155ps to maybe say 170-180ps, I would say the best bet would be to modify the Stream K20A as the base. From what I read about Hondata's effort into the 160ps Civic Si (which uses a K20A as well), the Hondata reprogrammed K20A ECU can liberate as much as 10-15ps AT THE WHEELS from the engine. So you might want to consider a Hondata ECU upgrade (which involves sending you ECU over to the US for re-programming due to the complexities with the immoboliser system - assuming it's there) or you might want to install an aftermarket piggy back computer like e-Manage or HKS FCON-5 and then MUST Dyno-tune it for best results. I think if you can retuned the engine's fuel and ignition timing and move the redline a bit further up (6800rpm for a Honda DOHC iVTEC engine is to be honest quite embarassing ! :) 7300-7500rpm should be quite good enough) I think quite a bit more power can be liberated. Of course air-filter, exhaust, headers are assumed to be a given.
One thing to bear in mind is that the Stream's K20A is tuned to run with RON91 petrol (gas, fuel, whatever people calls it in their part of the world). This means the engine is way de-tuned and also the ignition timing is very conservative. I think HongKong in general should have pretty good petrol, given that even Malaysia has RON97 petrol. So I think you can go quite 'wild' with fuel/ignition tuning with pretty good results.
While I will not condone it, the controversial mod of removing the cat should also recover quite a bit of power too. I think the Stream should have 2 cats so if you do want to remove the cat, I really hope you will remove only 1. Alternatively, swap a high-flow cat in, getting the ones used by the DC5R which is spec'ed to flow enough for 220ps should give you both good emissions and good power capability.
I also fully agree that you should focus on the other areas of the car (van) too. To me, the area I focus most on is the braking system. For my own Integra, I gladly sacrifice increased wear (of the brake rotors), noise, horrendous brake dust that can't be removed even by scraping or with petrol, and other things just for the sake of fantastic braking (I use a racing compound brake pad by HKS). So my opinion is you should upgrade the brakes first before touching the engine. Brake hoses, high-spec DOT4 brake fluid (assuming your Stream has ABS), upgraded rotors and very grippy brake pads should be the first to be done in my opinion.
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Stream K20A
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Thanks Accord , JMU R1, Wong KN, and others for your help and comments.
Yes its intended to be a sleeper and I would just like to have one of the fastest Streams on the block...short of swapping my new engine and tranny of course. Accord R is also right in that I have the chassis/braking/suspension/exhaust all considered and planned, the only thing I don't have a clue is the engine itself.
I was an old school VW GTI fan and back then when there were no computers (or less comprensive units) on cars, things were much simplier. Exhaust, headers, aggressive cams, and a bigger carb (or a new chip) will do it. Now, variable timing, reflashing the ECU (e.g.hondata) are all new to me....
Wong KN, thanks for the tip and I will now seriously consider a piggyback computer (can't afford the downtime for a reflash by Hondata) How does apexi V-AFC sound? (the HKS unit you mentioned does not have Vtec Control)
Guys How does increasing the compression ratio with a thinner gasket sound (3mm vs stock 5mm)? how will it affect the ECU? Will the V-AFC alone accomodate the increased compression ratio? Will it seriously affect (e.g.1/2) the life of the engine without changing the pistons/head/crank/rods?
Thanks a million
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big_civic
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Hello there.I'm a Brit living in Japan with the same car as you,a Stream RN3 iS. It's a small world. My first 2 cars before coming to Japan were also both MK1 Golf GTI's. Trying to tune the Honda is very different compared to the old VW but I've learnt a lot. My Stream is quite heavily modded but mostly interior,audio,wheels,suspension and a little body and engine work. I think that without changing the actual engine the furthest you can go with the engine is a turbo-intercooler kit,exhaust,i-VTEC/fuel controller,bigger-polished throttle intake etc. With all this done you should have about 220PS but this is about the same as the TYPE-R engine and is quite costly. I'm still thinking about what to do to my car. So far I have a Blitz Power air-intake,Fujitsubo CAT-back muffler and the i-VTEC/fuel controller. I have had it rolling roaded but estimate it to have about 170PS. If you're interested you can drop by my homepage and check out all the work I've done. www.cardomain.com/ride/439565/1 Good luck with your Stream.
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blackstripe77
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Damn. Love the way the car sits on those rims.
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Ultraman
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Hi,
To squeeze more power out of your Stream K20A3 you can try the following;
1.) DC5R stock header 4-2-1 (inclusive of the down-pipe)
2.) DC5R mid-pipe
2.) DC5R stock muffler
3.) High flow CAT
3.) AEM V2 open pod intake
4.) Skunk2 Stage 1 camshaft
5.) Unichip Q or E-manage Ultimate
6.) Increase the bore of the throttle body
7.) Light weight crank pulley
Should be able to get 180hp.
For better handling and safety, you should also consider the following;
1.) 18" light weight wheels
2.) 6-pot big brake kit
3.) Stainless steel braided brake hose
3.) Camber nut to adjust the camber angle of front wheels and
rear camber kit to adjust the rear wheels.
4.) Front strut bar
5.) Front under brace
6.) Coilover to lower the overall ride height
7.) High performance tires
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bien
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Wouldnt slapping on a K20AR head on to the K20A, getting some high comp pistins and the K20R ancillaries yield similar results?
No need to swap cams and stuff.
just need VTEC on both intake and exhaust right.
A K20AR head on top of a K24a4 block yielded more than 200PS.
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blackstripe77
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Hey Stream K20A
I was wondering if you actually got around to modifying your Stream? What did you do and how was it? And what kind of fuel economy are you getting?
I drive a stock Stream D17A RN1. Does a pathetic 8km/l, but I drive a lot of hilly areas on Hong Kong Island. Feels powerless to start with, even worse with passengers. It'd be nice to get more power but its been perfectly reliable so far (I'm the first owner, never had any problems), and I'm not sure if I want to put money into this 7 year old car.
Anyways, hope you're still enjoying your Stream!
Blackstripe77
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Big_Civic
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This is my car http://www.cardomain.com/ride/439565
I have seen a Honda Stream iS here in Japan with an Integra DC5 TypeR engine/6 speed transmission/drive shafts/brakes/engine computer using a Civic EP3 TypeR shift linkage.
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