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TonyEX
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Good read
http://www.newsweek.com//frameset.aspx/?url=http%3A%2F%2Finhofe.senate.gov%2Fpressreleases%2Fclimateupdate.htm
" the issue of catastrophic global warming is not just a favored fundraising tool. In truth, it's more fundamental than that. Put simply, man-induced global warming is an article of religious faith. "
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Nick GravesX
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2005?
Bit old-hat.
Interestingly, all those challenges/doubts are dismissed by the GW lobby as "already answered" or "not correct" and the repudiations are never actually given.
It will be interesting to see whether the great unwashed are so religiously indoctrinated, that hybrids and eco-stuff really DO drive the next K-wave cycle, or whether it all implodes as another great swindle.
I suspect that due to environmental pressures from Chinese/Indian competition for resources, it will continue alongside the other superstitions which beleaguere society.
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gofast182
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It's almost unbelievable to see all of this "science" collapsing on global warming after so much has been invested in it from squiggly lightbulbs to hybrids and new gov't regulations, etc. Granted I think it's good we try and reduce energy usage regardless, but I hope it means that there will be fewer regulations/restrictions on our freedoms in the future since there's nothing really concrete to base them on at this point.
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danielgr
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Nick Graves wrote:
2005?
Bit old-hat.
Interestingly, all those challenges/doubts are dismissed by the GW lobby as "already answered" or "not correct" and the repudiations are never actually given.
It will be interesting to see whether the great unwashed are so religiously indoctrinated, that hybrids and eco-stuff really DO drive the next K-wave cycle, or whether it all implodes as another great swindle.
I suspect that due to environmental pressures from Chinese/Indian competition for resources, it will continue alongside the other superstitions which beleaguere society.
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Most Credible Climate Skeptic Not So Credible After All
Ah... Americans... (not talking to you Nick) you should be carefull, the day you may acknowledge it you may be awfully lagging behind the Japanese, the Europeans, and even the Chinese. That day you may end up buying their technology, the one that was developped fueled by their people's earlier believe ... And even if it doesn't come, with resources being more and more scarce as the 6billion people in this planet improve their living conditions little by little, most efficient societies will end up ahead, like it or not. The race of the future won't be about the rapidity of exploiting unlimited resources, but about the efficiency at which limited ones are handled.
Don't you see that you are being deceived by the economic interests of a few guys... You should definitelly wake up and stop listening to those "skeptics", with or without climate change, it could only help you in the future...
Good luck !
PS: The good thing is that I'm still young enough to be here watching when that day finally comes...
Last edited by danielgr on 02-26-2010 14:15
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Nick GravesX
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gofast182 wrote:
It's almost unbelievable to see all of this "science" collapsing on global warming after so much has been invested in it from squiggly lightbulbs to hybrids and new gov't regulations, etc. Granted I think it's good we try and reduce energy usage regardless, but I hope it means that there will be fewer regulations/restrictions on our freedoms in the future since there's nothing really concrete to base them on at this point.
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Well, that's sort of the point, in reverse;
Because there's absolutely nothing concrete either way (cf Dr Patrick Moore, Greenspirit) there's nothing not to base the most draconian freedom controls on!
Governments need a hooded claw to save us all from, otherwise we'd not fall for them. A very convenient truth indeed.
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CR-V9
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I know I am making a mistake getting into this.
Thing to me is this. It always sepsrate into 2 groups. If I happen to believe the Mother Earth is warming and it is caused by CO2, I am one of -environmental extremists and their elitist organizations- or blindly believing the faith.
I happen to believe that the Mother Earth is warming and it is caused by CO2. No, I didn't study nor research extensively. I looked at both sides like everybody else, casualy. I've found one side sounds more reasonable than the other. I am not here or anywhere else to convince or convert anyone. I just believe it myself, nothing more, nothing less.
- blindly ignoring the so-called "scientific consensus." -
I think scientists are one of most logical thinking groups of peoople. There is a built-in safeguard system called 'peer review'. I am not saying I believe everything they say but I do admire their minds. I am not a rocket scientist.
- exploit the issue for fundraising purposes, raking in millions of dollars, -
That I agree. However it is a different issue. Even if we agreed on the climate change, we'd do still differ how to deal with it.
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owequitit
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This has been known for a LONG time.
Every ACTUAL scientist I have talked to, that actually specializes in this stuff, has given me the same exact opinion. That man-made global warming is a fallacy.
They won't deny global warming in general, and there isn't disagreement that in the "community." They simply disagree on man's role in the process.
There are too many smoking guns to just dismiss those against man-made global warming as people who refuse to change. Everything from natural contribution to the total, to atmospheric concentrations.
The fact is that it is a lucrative racket. The lobbyists convince the governments that we need research monies to find out for sure, and they accomplish this by striking fear into the public, which provides the political pressure to do so. Then, they live extremely comfortably off the tax money, and manage to not prove anything, or disprove themselves, so then they sidetrack into more research grants. People like to complain about the money that big "evil" companies screw them out of, but they seem to have no problem pumping billions of dollars through groups like the Sierra Club, who can't deny that they, and their constituents, benefit from those billions of dollars. Then after 10-20 years of squandering the money, and running out of "proof," they drop the topic completely, and move onto the next tragedy. Remember the "global cooling" scare of the 70's?
They also tend to specifically target the younger age groups because they are easier to indoctrinate into the belief that it is necessary. The young people tend to be more naive, more impressionable and are less likely to remember the scams of yore. If you try to convince someone from the 70's, then are more apt to say "yeah right. That is what you said about global cooling." A young person has no such frame of reference.
And of course, it is always presented under the benevolent agenda of "the common good." That is frequently how tyrannies are sold, by the way.
As of yet, I have seen more legitimate questions AGAINST man-made global warming than support for it. As the days go by, it gets weaker and weaker. They have even gone so far as to claim it as "climate change" now, because the term "global warming" was running out of steam.
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notyper
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Oh Daniel, you poor misguided fool.
I can't believe that you believe what you just wrote.
Phil Jones, Michael Mann and James Hansen aren't to be criticized or deplored because of who pays them. Rather, its because of what they've done. They've lied, dissembled, cheated and obfuscated. They manipulated data to fit preconceived conclusions. Fake but accurate is not science.
What you just posted as a supporting link is what is called an Ad Homenim argument. If you can't attack the argument, attack the person (or in this case, his relationships).
If the case for AGW was so airtight, why would those leading lights of AGW science need to make things up and block opposing viewpoints from seeing the light of day?
Furthermore, you build the strawman argument that those who disagree with the theory of AGW also must not see value in conservation and energy efficiency. Of course, this is not true. I'm all for saving energy, but not being forced to do it by ignorant, hypocritical and self-serving government bureaucrats who get to decide how to spend my money and how to restrict my life while living high on the hog themselves.
SC
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atomiclightbulb
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(Score: 1, Normal)
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02-26-2010 23:38 |
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The title of this thread is ridiculous.
The link does not refer to a Newsweek article. It is a speech given by a politician, pasted into a press release.
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Bollocks
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I so agree with you Shawn. But I'm starting to think this is a losing battle. So, rather than taking our lumps as humble taxpayers, perhaps we should consider some timely investment in tangible carbon offsets that industry will be scrambling to acquire down the road. And maybe we can get in tight with somebody in government to get our greedy hands on some carbon credits that we can sell for a profit.
notyper wrote:
Oh Daniel, you poor misguided fool.
I can't believe that you believe what you just wrote.
Phil Jones, Michael Mann and James Hansen aren't to be criticized or deplored because of who pays them. Rather, its because of what they've done. They've lied, dissembled, cheated and obfuscated. They manipulated data to fit preconceived conclusions. Fake but accurate is not science.
What you just posted as a supporting link is what is called an Ad Homenim argument. If you can't attack the argument, attack the person (or in this case, his relationships).
If the case for AGW was so airtight, why would those leading lights of AGW science need to make things up and block opposing viewpoints from seeing the light of day?
Furthermore, you build the strawman argument that those who disagree with the theory of AGW also must not see value in conservation and energy efficiency. Of course, this is not true. I'm all for saving energy, but not being forced to do it by ignorant, hypocritical and self-serving government bureaucrats who get to decide how to spend my money and how to restrict my life while living high on the hog themselves.
SC
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Nick GravesX
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It probably IS a losing battle, Bollocks; the extremists will shriek that you are a racist, planet-killing, child-raping, Honda-driving, Nazi fascist pig if you slightly question the validity of the consensus.
Like Owe say, there is genuine consensus that GW was a phenomenon at least up to around 2000. MMGW is somewhat of a different thing altogether. The actual scientific POV is "f ucked if we know, missus".
As Bjorn Lomborg was vilified for pointing out, despite all the peer review of scientists, they are actually only human and frequently get misled by political or financial gain - especially since the meeja tends to ignore the "within the margin of error" preferring "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHH!!!!!" as a resonable paraphrasing thereof.
There have been examples of bad science eveywhere - read Stuart Sutherland's book "irrationality" to see how intelligent, logical people (like Medical Doctors) CAN be made to think like idiots, quite easily.
So ironically, I think there IS real evidence of the Religion of MMGW (cf Honda Motor Co Ltd), whereas on MMGW itself, the jury's out looking for Nurofen...
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P54
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EggLaNd'S BeSt wrote:
Sender,as I remember it,fuel injection first was used on sports/performance oriented models before trickling down to other more mainstream models.Chevy Corvette,Datsun Z,and various D/K-Jetronic autos automatically come to mind.
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2010/02/10/global-warming-slows/
All this C02 talk is great if you buy that C02 is actually a cause of global warming.Would you agree mindlessly to a tax on breathing and flatulence also?All the while the government allows and even encourages the cutting down of forests and the destruction of the ecosystem.The next new tax will be on urinating,spitting,boiling water,taking a shower,and the emissions of FC vehicles.Crazy?Just wait and see.The water bill is already getting hard to pay here in the US due to foreign/corporate entities taking over all the public water systems.
http://www.alternet.org/water/144203/bailed-out_aig_forcing_poor_to_choose_between_running_water_and_food/?page=2
At the rate we're going,it won't be long before were back to walking and building Adobe huts to stay warm,because it will too expensive to afford anything else for the masses.
Yes, you are right, Co2 is the cause of global warming. Blame it on the Amish as every horse they have emits more Co2 than every "horse" from a car. And all those cattle farmers and dairy farmers. Anybody come up with an idea how to make those animals more environmentally friendly? Is that why they have war, to get rid of Co2 emitting humans? Governments tax Co2 from cars and France wanted to Co2 tax airplanes. While the world gathered in Denmark in Dec. for the global warming climate conference, and spent millions doing so, 120 people froze to death in Europe. Shortly after came the Haiti quake, among the poorest of the poor. Seems like money spent on global warming talks could be better spent on improving life for the poor. After all God is in charge of His creation, and He might not be pleased the way wealth is distributed. Been pretty cold and lots of snow all over the world after that global warming conference. Some 15000 years ago they say all of Scandinavia was covered in ice. (Like Greenland). Funny how it all melted, could it be all the Reindeer or Musk Ox? Maybe it was overpopulation in Africa, and the use of firewood to cook their meals? Somehow to much Co2 must have been released. Or could it just be part of the plan of creation? As more people populate the earth more space will be available? And then we have the Volcano eruptions that pollute more than humans can do anyway.
Co2 balances itself over time, plant more trees, don't just cut them down. It is all about finding a way for new taxes, in fact one country that like to be the "GREENEST" have a heavy tax penalty on cars. Since we talk about CR-Z with 117 g/km Co2, and if the engine released 180 g/km (like a K20?) the special Co2 tax would increase US $7,500.
Maybe Honda got it right, for more than 30 years they have been engaged in planting trees and improving the Eco system in various parts of the world. Hundred of thousands, if not millions of trees have been planted. I guess that helps more than spending millions on conferences, listening to some self appointed climate experts presenting data that is incorrect.
To protect their highly paid jobs?
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CR-V9
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I am not defending or trying to respond. I am thinking out loud for myself. Is it right ? How can I think out loud. Can I hear it ? Hear it inside of me loud ?
I think that people use a fear to control. I've seen countries use the U.S. or UK as an enemy and put the fear in their people's minds to control. That may not be a good example but I can see.
I can see that if it's a college, a city, a country...but all around the world ? They all conspire together ? Is it possible ? A biggest question on this one to me is that something like 15 out of top 20 oil companies are state owned. Is MMGW a good idea for them ? I don't know. I am not politician nor economist. I am I-only-can-think-one-thing-at-a-time kind of a guy.
I think the scientific communities have been wrong so many times, too. I don't believe in logic nor rational. I think logic is logically flawed. Still I do admire their logical thinking. Unlike the religions, scientific findings are ready to be disproved or challenged at any time if they can swallow their pride. And they do that among themselves. I don't know, again. I know I am not that smart.
On this case of MMGW, I think that it is so complicated. It is not like a case of 'cold fusion' wheres you can easily test it or try to recreate it ?
How can you take a temprature of the mother Earth ? Where is her arse to put a thermometer ?
The system of geo thermo dynamics ? I don't even know if it's a right word. The sun heats up the water in the equator, the currents bring warm water up to the north and give out heat along the way, and cool down, sink down deep and flow back to the equator. Something like that ? And winds going west to east, east to west ? They meet and create storms, rain, snow, whatever..It is too complex to me to understand this natural system of mixing up the heat all around the Earth.
But I can see raising temprature causing disruptions to today's system. I shouldn't have used the word 'disruptions'. I meant 'changes'. Of course these changes are not exordinaly to the planet Earth. But are we quick enough to adapt to this ? I don't know.
Recent snow storms in the U.S., a record sonw in the northen Japan last year, this to me is that raising temprature is making more water to evaporate into the air and warmer air hold more moisture thus we got more snow and more rain, I think. I am just worried that because we got so much rain and sonw, the sea levels will raise too much.
How many times did I use "I don't know". See I don't know what heck I am talking about. I am a shallow man with no principals. You can't believe the message by such a man bears.
Thanks, my rant is off.
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TonyEX
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CR-V9 wrote:
...
I happen to believe that the Mother Earth is warming and it is caused by CO2. No, I didn't study nor research extensively. I looked at both sides like everybody else, casualy. I've found one side sounds more reasonable than the other. I am not here or anywhere else to convince or convert anyone. I just believe it myself, nothing more, nothing less.
- blindly ignoring the so-called "scientific consensus." -
I think scientists are one of most logical thinking groups of peoople. There is a built-in safeguard system called 'peer review'. I am not saying I believe everything they say but I do admire their minds. I am not a rocket scientist.
- exploit the issue for fundraising purposes, raking in millions of dollars, -
That I agree. However it is a different issue. Even if we agreed on the climate change, we'd do still differ how to deal with it.
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As I matter of fact, I did work at JPL and I have worked in Spacecraft, with a degree in Physics.... so, you could say I AM a rocket scientist.
You are not.
You are being sold by slick marketing. You are listening to people who are NOT scientists.
From a logical perspective, you are basing your conclusions on fallacious logic. You are using appeal to authority, in itself dangerous, but on top of that the authorities you are using are not authorities on the field. Only they LOOK and SOUND like they are.. They are ACTORS and MARKETING experts.
They could sell you the idea that the moon is made out of Cheese (Wallace and Gromit).
Now then, scientists proper are honest. They will never tell you that something IS... because that IS is based on a model, a theory, a worldview, a gestalt.. (see The Philosophy of Science by Kuhn and Wiggestein). Because we use models, we know that in the future our models will change. That's inevitable.
In the meantime we use the scientific process... in which theories are tested by examining their predictions and the empirical facts on which they are based. There is also a strict process.
(a) If empirical data is discovered than disproves the prediction of a theory, then the theory is disproven and discarded.
(b) If new empirical data is discovered that changes or modifies the basis on which a theory is based, then the theory must be modified and it can be disproven if the new predictions are not borne.
(c) If data is ignored and the process above are ignored, then the scientific process has been violated and from a scientfic view point the theory is no longer valid.
The theories that postulate causal relationships (a) between CO2 and Global Warming and (b) human civilazation and Global Warming being and (c) Global Warming proper have been debunked because all failed the previous three steps.
However, a political movement has been created behind these theories. A movement wherein certain nations stand to profit (not us) and certain politico-industrial global consortiums stand to profit (not me).... so they are pushing this crap.
And people like you are buying into it because you are being sold a very slick ball of wax.
Many people, particularly in this country, who never even passed High School physics, who have no clue about science except what they see in ABC-TV or the main newsmedia.
I would ask to step back and think:
Who is telling you that CO2 is warming the planet? The News Media and the Political Machine... (forget public school teachers)... or the scientific community. Do these people have a doubt? Do they use the scientific method themselves or do the quote _some_ scientists?
(this is btw religion)...
Is the scientific community united behind this or are there strong camps on either side?
If there's a doubt in the scientific community, are we willing to spend ourselves to oblivion on something like that?
Mind you, I'm all for conservation and energy efficiency. But I find it awful that the "green movement" is being coopted by the Global Warming machine.
Go read Crichton's State of Fear..
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Nick GravesX
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Well put, Tony.
There can be no economy where there is no efficiency - B. Disraeli.
The simplest way to cut man's impact on the environment would be to introduce a one-child per family policy worldwide.
Since that would offend other religions and might lead to economic recession, it's never ever stated as an option, even for mere discussion.
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TonyEX
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Daniel... I will reply at the risk of sounding redundant
The American Left engages in Ad Homenim attacks when they are attacked. The American Left engages in smear campaigns ALL THE TIME. It's the way they do business.
While the American Right provides facts.
It's the state of the politics in the USA. The Left is very good at PR but is basically dishonest. With dishonesty you can get away with lies and innuendo. You can put up a very convincing front -as if you know what you're taking about... it's called ACTING. Lawyers, actors, politicians and businessmen are great at lying and acting. They are convincing.
The Right lies too but is far more honest about things (*). When you're honest you don't do so well in PR because you come through as ambivalent. This is the reason why scientists and engineers (and honest people) are not good in front of people. We don't act, we come through equivocal because we acknowledge that there are many sides to a story.
(*) Ignore the Religious Moral Majority.... they are buffoons ann not really core to the GOP: which is Classical American Liberalism.
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TonyEX
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You sound rational and honest.. that's why you doubt.
The people who are TELLING you that Global Warming (*) is caused by CO2 are CONVINCED... or so they tell you.
They're also making money and achieving political control over your freedoms.
Scientists are not convinced that Global Warming and CO2 have anything to do with each other... particularly C02 created by human civilization.
Hell, WE ARE A WORLD OF CARBON BASED ORGANISMS.... the whole carbon control is preposterous.
If you want to control carbon organisms then the easiest thing to do is to deploy a few hundred thermonuclear weapons on heavily populated countries... Adios Eastern China, adios India, Banglash, Western Europe, NE US, SoCal, Eastern Brazil, Mexico City... and WHAM! You're just cut down like 2BIL humans from the planet.
The rest go back to 4000BC, a bit of famine and voila! no more carbon released into the atmosphere... And, a bit of radioative dust on the stratosphere will cool down the earth too.
But, before we pull that, I want Al Gore and every God Damnned politiican and yuppie who wants to control CO2 to take a 45 slug in the base of their brain.
Jeez.... that's my Modest Proposal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
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Nick GravesX
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Thing is, the reason Dr Moore abandoned Greenpeace, is was that it became taken over post cold-war by the sort of looney lefties who hate the modern world & would like us to go back to an ideallised stone-age existence just like Tony suggests!
Part of the problem in EU is that mostly moderate, sensible, social-democrat style slightly-lefties tend to get lumped in with the nihilist-looneys & one gets a distorted balance.
The upside is, we don't really have that sort of super-scary retarded right of which Tony also speaks!
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owequitit
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CR-V9 wrote:
I am not defending or trying to respond. I am thinking out loud for myself. Is it right ? How can I think out loud. Can I hear it ? Hear it inside of me loud ?
I think that people use a fear to control. I've seen countries use the U.S. or UK as an enemy and put the fear in their people's minds to control. That may not be a good example but I can see.
I can see that if it's a college, a city, a country...but all around the world ? They all conspire together ? Is it possible ? A biggest question on this one to me is that something like 15 out of top 20 oil companies are state owned. Is MMGW a good idea for them ? I don't know. I am not politician nor economist. I am I-only-can-think-one-thing-at-a-time kind of a guy.
I think the scientific communities have been wrong so many times, too. I don't believe in logic nor rational. I think logic is logically flawed. Still I do admire their logical thinking. Unlike the religions, scientific findings are ready to be disproved or challenged at any time if they can swallow their pride. And they do that among themselves. I don't know, again. I know I am not that smart.
On this case of MMGW, I think that it is so complicated. It is not like a case of 'cold fusion' wheres you can easily test it or try to recreate it ?
How can you take a temprature of the mother Earth ? Where is her arse to put a thermometer ?
The system of geo thermo dynamics ? I don't even know if it's a right word. The sun heats up the water in the equator, the currents bring warm water up to the north and give out heat along the way, and cool down, sink down deep and flow back to the equator. Something like that ? And winds going west to east, east to west ? They meet and create storms, rain, snow, whatever..It is too complex to me to understand this natural system of mixing up the heat all around the Earth.
But I can see raising temprature causing disruptions to today's system. I shouldn't have used the word 'disruptions'. I meant 'changes'. Of course these changes are not exordinaly to the planet Earth. But are we quick enough to adapt to this ? I don't know.
Recent snow storms in the U.S., a record sonw in the northen Japan last year, this to me is that raising temprature is making more water to evaporate into the air and warmer air hold more moisture thus we got more snow and more rain, I think. I am just worried that because we got so much rain and sonw, the sea levels will raise too much.
How many times did I use "I don't know". See I don't know what heck I am talking about. I am a shallow man with no principals. You can't believe the message by such a man bears.
Thanks, my rant is off.
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The problem though CR-V9, is that when they DON'T swallow their pride, you get nothing better than a religious belief that APPEARS to be back up by facts. It doesn't make it any more valid or real, if the facts are distorted to fit the idea.
Science is NOT based on an idea supported by hand picked facts. It is about a theory either supported or denied by facts. Where the global warming issue completely seperates from real science is that they hand pick and choose the facts that support their position, while denying those that don't. When someone holds up the facts that DO disagree with their position, they are dismissed by the "truthseekers" as weak minded, conservative, corrupt, incapable, or any number of other personal things because they can't logically attack the questions, so they attack the presenter in an attempt to discredit them and steal people's willingness to listen to him.
To someone such as yourself, and myself, all of the storms occurring DO appear to be based on some higher order problem. Which is why, rather than assuming, I used the vast meteorological resources at my University, and Geology resources from other Universities to seek answers.
Right now, we are in the midst of El Nino, which wholly changes the weather patterns around the hemisphere. You will also notice that while the media is reporting all of these horrendous storms, they are mostly leaving out the fact (by making a little note at the end, that most people won't bother to read), that they are not the worst storms historically. Many of these have been the worst in 50-60 years, but we are over 100 years into industrialization, we have only been recording weather for a short time, and we can still trace the temperature trend back many hundreds of years, when it was STILL rising.
To top it off, scientists recently discovered that there are actually 2 distinct forms of El Nino, one weaker than the other. We go between El Nino and La Nina roughly every 10 years, but sometimes the El Nino that forms is stronger than others. Currently, it is the stronger one that has developed, resulting in a more pronounced and drastic shift in the storm patterns.
Even the hurricanes and tsunamis have not been the historically largest. If there were creedence to GW being the cause of all of these storms, would it not be logical to also expect them to be historical maximums, based on the fact that the conditions that are supposedly creating them are also at historical maximums?
It just doesn't hold water when you look at the bigger picture, and actually start talking to qualified professionals. The more you look, the more the story sinks.
The whole basis of the propaganda of GW is that is SEEMS plausible to the layman, when in reality, to the experts who know the subject matter, it is not plausible, substantiated, or even likely. But the green movement doesn't want you to hear that, because they want you to give them your billions of dollars in tax money, so that they can PUSH their agenda. They are trying to wrest vast sums of money and control from you, just like the oil companies. They are no different, they are simply selling a different product.
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TonyEX
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You can't handle the truth.....
Go read the rest of the thread, assuming you have the attention span.
So, I'll give the sound bite.
Global Warming in NOT caused by CO2 nor the effects of Human Kinds.
Global Warming in NOT true. 20 years ago we had Global Cooling.
The Global Warming Myth is a political power grab and a money making scheme by large global corporations.
There. News at 5:00.
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owequitit
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TonyE wrote:
You can't handle the truth.....
Go read the rest of the thread, assuming you have the attention span.
So, I'll give the sound bite.
Global Warming in NOT caused by CO2 nor the effects of Human Kinds.
Global Warming in NOT true. 20 years ago we had Global Cooling.
The Global Warming Myth is a political power grab and a money making scheme by large global corporations.
There. News at 5:00.
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Who the hell are you talking to?
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superchg
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owequitit wrote:
TonyE wrote:
You can't handle the truth.....
Go read the rest of the thread, assuming you have the attention span.
So, I'll give the sound bite.
Global Warming in NOT caused by CO2 nor the effects of Human Kinds.
Global Warming in NOT true. 20 years ago we had Global Cooling.
The Global Warming Myth is a political power grab and a money making scheme by large global corporations.
There. News at 5:00.
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Who the hell are you talking to?
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Okay, time out!I don't know if some of us are getting cabin fever, depending on our locality, but all this bickering needs to stop! This Forum is for discussing Honda's primarily. Please leave the political stuff out. Also, name calling and personal attacks really get old! I've also noticed that the same people (usual suspects if you will) are always getting into arguments on TOV and I think a lot of us are getting tired of it.
Please, let's tolerate other people's opinions
and don't be hatin'.
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pjlk
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atomiclighbulb,
There is something un-wholesome about this forum.
Too many of the longtime key player-posters on vtec.net feel free to post anything that suits their emotions and political preferences!
Rather than feeling constrained by objectivity, neutrality and fairness, they demonstrate about as much objectivity as that shown by Rush, Sean of Glenn.
At least two, perhaps three of the long time posters have forever presented a regressive (the word "conservative" is too reputable to use for them) agenda. In fact, their agenda is contrary to what I think Honda/Acura stands for. (A good corporate citizen (which they are not) and fuel-economy leadership (which they have never advocated in my communications) .
I think that with all their considerable postings, it is fair to ask "who pays their salaries?" Does Honda/Acura subsidize them? Lobbiests, I can understand. But what type of job subsidizes this continued posting; let-alone biased posting?
Based on what I'm observing, at least 2-3 of them (M......R, T...y & n....r) have such an agenda, that they are incapable of posting objective, balanced articles. Their misinformation, cherry-picking & use of right-wing hate names are irrefutable, unproductive, embarrassments to themselves. Perhaps they are just unconscious participants in today's dysfunctional US government. In any case, I think Honda/Acura should shut them down! Free speech is fine, but a corporation tarnishing its image by supporting bias in US politics is not a good public relations approach.
pjlk
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owequitit
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superchg wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyE wrote:
You can't handle the truth.....
Go read the rest of the thread, assuming you have the attention span.
So, I'll give the sound bite.
Global Warming in NOT caused by CO2 nor the effects of Human Kinds.
Global Warming in NOT true. 20 years ago we had Global Cooling.
The Global Warming Myth is a political power grab and a money making scheme by large global corporations.
There. News at 5:00.
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Who the hell are you talking to?
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Okay, time out!I don't know if some of us are getting cabin fever, depending on our locality, but all this bickering needs to stop! This Forum is for discussing Honda's primarily. Please leave the political stuff out. Also, name calling and personal attacks really get old! I've also noticed that the same people (usual suspects if you will) are always getting into arguments on TOV and I think a lot of us are getting tired of it.
Please, let's tolerate other people's opinions
and don't be hatin'.
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OK. Daddy.
1) I was asking him who he was talking to. His post was unclear, but was obviously geared toward someone.
2) You can't preach being tolerant of other people's opinions and then try to quell those voicing their opinions.
3) There is a difference between a vigorous debate/discussion, and an arguement. I haven't seen any name calling or personal attacks in this thread yet. That was why I was asking TonyE who he was talking to...
4) If you don't like the thread, you are more than welcome to not click on it. It isn't like the thread title wasn't obviously about a controversial and heated topic.
Further along those lines, there was NOTHING confrontational, argumentative, or hateful about this thread until you came in and tried to be the World Police. Oddly, there was also no name calling, until you came in and started labeling people "the usual suspects."
We are capable of controlling ourselves, and if we aren't, it is up to the mods to put us in place. Not you.
Now, do you want to participate in the conversation, or do you want to cause confrontation?
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TonyEX
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owequitit wrote:
Who the hell are you talking to?
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Atomiclightbulb.
Follow the thread....
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TonyEX
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pjlk wrote:
atomiclighbulb,
There is something un-wholesome about this forum.
Too many of the longtime key player-posters on vtec.net feel free to post anything that suits their emotions and political preferences!
Rather than feeling constrained by objectivity, neutrality and fairness, they demonstrate about as much objectivity as that shown by Rush, Sean of Glenn.
At least two, perhaps three of the long time posters have forever presented a regressive (the word "conservative" is too reputable to use for them) agenda. In fact, their agenda is contrary to what I think Honda/Acura stands for. (A good corporate citizen (which they are not) and fuel-economy leadership (which they have never advocated in my communications) .
I think that with all their considerable postings, it is fair to ask "who pays their salaries?" Does Honda/Acura subsidize them? Lobbiests, I can understand. But what type of job subsidizes this continued posting; let-alone biased posting?
Based on what I'm observing, at least 2-3 of them (M......R, T...y & n....r) have such an agenda, that they are incapable of posting objective, balanced articles. Their misinformation, cherry-picking & use of right-wing hate names are irrefutable, unproductive, embarrassments to themselves. Perhaps they are just unconscious participants in today's dysfunctional US government. In any case, I think Honda/Acura should shut them down! Free speech is fine, but a corporation tarnishing its image by supporting bias in US politics is not a good public relations approach.
pjlk
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QED.
You just proved the point.
When American Progressives are challenged they engage in ad hominem attacks instead of keeping to the facts.
You can not disrefute the points that have been made so you try to say that can not be trusted.
Well, two can play the same game.. except that I will do so from a valid logical perspective.
Your points are invalid since you provide no proof whatsoever.
Again.. QED.
Go back to college and take a course in formal logic.
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owequitit
|
|
pjlk wrote:
atomiclighbulb,
There is something un-wholesome about this forum.
Too many of the longtime key player-posters on vtec.net feel free to post anything that suits their emotions and political preferences!
Rather than feeling constrained by objectivity, neutrality and fairness, they demonstrate about as much objectivity as that shown by Rush, Sean of Glenn.
At least two, perhaps three of the long time posters have forever presented a regressive (the word "conservative" is too reputable to use for them) agenda. In fact, their agenda is contrary to what I think Honda/Acura stands for. (A good corporate citizen (which they are not) and fuel-economy leadership (which they have never advocated in my communications) .
I think that with all their considerable postings, it is fair to ask "who pays their salaries?" Does Honda/Acura subsidize them? Lobbiests, I can understand. But what type of job subsidizes this continued posting; let-alone biased posting?
Based on what I'm observing, at least 2-3 of them (M......R, T...y & n....r) have such an agenda, that they are incapable of posting objective, balanced articles. Their misinformation, cherry-picking & use of right-wing hate names are irrefutable, unproductive, embarrassments to themselves. Perhaps they are just unconscious participants in today's dysfunctional US government. In any case, I think Honda/Acura should shut them down! Free speech is fine, but a corporation tarnishing its image by supporting bias in US politics is not a good public relations approach.
pjlk
|
And this folks, is the very definition of an ad hominem attack.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
You don't like what some people are saying, but being unable to counter with a substantiated response of your own, you attack the individual making the claim in an attempt to undermine their credibility.
The problem is that your position has no more credibility, and thus the fact that you are unable to counter and must instead resort to personal attack, not only shoots YOUR position in the foot, but also goes to prove the ad hominem claims that were made very early in the thread.
To be truthful, the ONLY facts I have seen yet on this matter are from people like Shawn (Not that I take what Shawn says as gospel).
What he and other actually qualified experts, who actually know something about the topic and hold an education, experience, and position to be versed on the matter, raise VERY substantial questions that apparently can't be answered. These questions are large enough to sink the entire theory, thus the resort to personal attacks on credibility.
None of MY sources are affiliated with the special interest groups pushing the agenda and thus that qualify as a neutral party. They have nothing to gain nor lose from their opinions. Unlike the special interest groups.
Objectivity does not label anyone in disgreement as "regressive," nor does it automatically attempt to lump them with the likes of Rush, Glenn, or Sean.
Objective people are actually neutral and decide based on the relative merits of the idea, problem, or potential solutions, not some rigid ideology or set of beliefs.
Objective people disagree at length, but they provide data to counter data, not personal attacks, assertions, generalizations, or smear campaigns.
In short, you haven't proven any sort of objectivity in this thread.
In regard to what Honda stands for, in many ways they stand for what they always have. Efficiency, quality, and value to the customer. However, as they push further down the greenie ideology route based on obviously flawed GW logic, they stand in danger of alienating a large and objective part of their customer base. I am all about doing more with less, as long as the technology makes sense. Hydrogen makes sense. Plug-ins and hybrids do not. That does not make me conservative or liberal, it makes me objective.
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CR-V9
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Wow. What happened ? Was it me ? Did I say something to upset you so much ?
You say think for myself. I thought that was what I was doing. Now, I am trying to think for myself and you shoot me down with a machine gun ? Feels like it.
TonyE wrote:
As I matter of fact, I did work at JPL and I have worked in Spacecraft, with a degree in Physics.... so, you could say I AM a rocket scientist.
You are not.
Who is telling you that CO2 is warming the planet? The News Media and the Political Machine... (forget public school teachers)... or the scientific community. Do these people have a doubt? Do they use the scientific method themselves or do the quote _some_ scientists?
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Yes, TonyE, you are a scientist and I am not. I am a man with less educations. Do you have to shoot me down ?
You proudly said you worked at JPL. I presume you refer to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory of NASA where briliant honest scientists like you work.
Their website was one of sites I visited to look at this MMBW issue. These are what they say...
Water vapor actually has more heat-trapping power than carbon dioxide. It is also more abundant. But carbon dioxide and water vapor interact in crucial ways - more carbon dioxide means the atmosphere gets warmer, which then creates more water vapor, which traps heat and warms up the atmosphere even more.
The amount of carbon in the oceans, land and air is naturally very finely tuned, but human activity is upsetting that balance, with effects all over the globe. NASA�s Soil Moisture Active Passive (SMAP) mission, to be launched in 2010-2013, will use soil moisture measurements to improve our understanding of the water, energy and carbon cycles.
Even if we stopped all carbon emissions right now, the hundreds of billions of tons of carbon dioxide that have been pumped into the atmosphere and absorbed by the oceans since the Industrial Revolution would continue to warm the planet. For how long? No-one knows for sure, but estimates range from hundreds of years to thousands of years into the future.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
i am trying in my own layman kind of way. There are too much to absorb but enough for me to jump into my conclusion, and that is fine with me.
signing off.
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Power Of Dreams
|
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TonyE wrote:
pjlk wrote:
atomiclighbulb,
There is something un-wholesome about this forum.
Too many of the longtime key player-posters on vtec.net feel free to post anything that suits their emotions and political preferences!
Rather than feeling constrained by objectivity, neutrality and fairness, they demonstrate about as much objectivity as that shown by Rush, Sean of Glenn.
At least two, perhaps three of the long time posters have forever presented a regressive (the word "conservative" is too reputable to use for them) agenda. In fact, their agenda is contrary to what I think Honda/Acura stands for. (A good corporate citizen (which they are not) and fuel-economy leadership (which they have never advocated in my communications) .
I think that with all their considerable postings, it is fair to ask "who pays their salaries?" Does Honda/Acura subsidize them? Lobbiests, I can understand. But what type of job subsidizes this continued posting; let-alone biased posting?
Based on what I'm observing, at least 2-3 of them (M......R, T...y & n....r) have such an agenda, that they are incapable of posting objective, balanced articles. Their misinformation, cherry-picking & use of right-wing hate names are irrefutable, unproductive, embarrassments to themselves. Perhaps they are just unconscious participants in today's dysfunctional US government. In any case, I think Honda/Acura should shut them down! Free speech is fine, but a corporation tarnishing its image by supporting bias in US politics is not a good public relations approach.
pjlk
|
QED.
You just proved the point.
When American Progressives are challenged they engage in ad hominem attacks instead of keeping to the facts.
You can not disrefute the points that have been made so you try to say that can not be trusted.
Well, two can play the same game.. except that I will do so from a valid logical perspective.
Your points are invalid since you provide no proof whatsoever.
Again.. QED.
Go back to college and take a course in formal logic.
|
You never post facts here.
All you do is go around bitching about how you think Obama is a socialist and calling Nancy Pelosi "Pelousy"
To you, the Republicans are heaven's little angels and everything the Democrats do is terrible. There's no use trying to talk sense into you because you don't have any!
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Power Of Dreams
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I'm a member of three other car forums and what this comes down to is a failure to moderate things and keep the forums under control.
Everywhere else has a policy that if you post political things outside of the political forum or try to inject politics into a car discussion, you get timed out.
Tony, Andrew and a few other posters here have too much time on their hands and are either too ignorant or too proud to admit any fault on their side, they think the Republicans defecate gold and jewels while they're blaming Obama for what happened during the Bush administration. I know a lot of conservatives, but I haven't seen any this short-sighted that seriously think that the Republicans don't do anything wrong and that the Democrats are to blame for everything wrong in the world.
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