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danielgr
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Well, I just came back from Japan where I had the opportunity to get my first relatively consequent experience with a CVT Honda (a 1.3L 2nd gen Fit in this case). Indeed, in Europe ATs aren't very popular, and CVTs nearly inexistent.
Main Previous AT experiences are:
- the 7th gen Accord/TSX with the k24 + 5AT (short)
- previous gen CR-V with K20 + 4AT (long)
- 7th gen Civic hatch with 1.6L + 4AT (long)
- Prius 2nd gen (very short)
- Miata 1.8L 6AT (very short)
- 2nd gen Euro Jazz/Fit 1.3L 6AT (very short)
I have also had a relatively long driving experience with the European version of that Fit/Jazz using a 5MT on the same engine.
So, after about 1000km (600 miles) on nearly any condition (highway, roads, city, mountain-roads, etc.) all I can say it's I'm truly amazed by Honda's latest CVT on the Fit.
To be honest my first encounter with a CVT was on the 2nd gen Prius, and I'll always remind that drive as my worst ever feeling at the wheel of any car... I don't know, maybe it was not so much the trany but the overall Prius package, maybe it's simply that at the time I had not driven any AT car... I have also read reports of reliability problems coming from Asia, just as well as some jerkinesses and sluggish throttle response on other cars that I have never driven.
Right now though, I simply can't understand why would anyone want any other type of AT. A few impressions of my Fit drive while constantly observing/studying the CVT operation (I was really curious about it):
- SMOOTH, this might be the best word to describe it. That thing is simply as smooth as anything can get, and specially when coming from the 4ATs and European's Fit 6AT (automated AT) it's like day and night...
- "Grade Logic Control"? "Gear hunting"? Simply forget about it, this thing revs up and down according to as many factors as one could think of (throttle position, slope, etc.) without even giving you the opportunity to notice it. On the highway, on any slope, it simply keeps on smoothly variating the gear ratio to get the best out of the engine...
- Fast. Well, first of all if you go WOT on the normal position ("D") you get an acceleration ramp that is pretty similar to what you'd get on a regular tranny (and not the typical rev first -> accelerate later approach on other CVTs). Second, if you take the lever to "S" and accelerate the car simply jumps forward faster than anything I've ever seen (and thankfully it's a pretty easy maneuver that doesn't require any special trick on the lever). Sure if you are used to an MT it may not be pleasant to get the "CVT constant moaning", but it can't get faster to react and accelerate than this... Now, it's also very far from the sluggish rev->slip timing I remember from the Prius, this thing really "jumps" as soon as you smash the throttle.
- Impressive FE. Well, I'd always thought MTs still had the edge on the FE department. It might be if given all the proper ratios and driving it properly but... I simply achieved my best ever FE on the CVT Fit. How is it possible? I guess that always having "the right gear" engaged and enjoying the highest "gearing span" I've ever seen (this thing cruises at 1500rpm for 90kmph/56mph on a 1.3L engine !; vs. 2500-3000 on the 5MT) makes up for the additional loses. On my father's Euro 1.3L 5MT it's quite hard to get bellow 5.5L/100km (over 43mpg) whereas going bellow 5.0L/100km (over 47mpg) is a piece of cake on the CVT one. Sure the MT I'm talking about is the heavier top of the line version (with 16" alloys), but still:
- we averaged 4.2L/100km (55mpg) over a 300km round trip to Narita
- ended up the first tank (mixed city/road/highway) at 5.2L/100km (45mpg)
- were about 4.6L/100km (51mpg) when I left Japan past the half of the second tank (mixed city/mountain road/road/highway).
And those figures were achieved on winter time at near freezing temps. Now, probably if pushing the engine the MT would still get better FE on any condition, but most of the time you aren't pushing it anyway... Also, I wish I could try on a MT with a 6th gear as long as the longest available CVT one, but it seems Honda won't provide it...
Now, I wonder why Honda doesn't bring those cars outside Japan anymore (cost?, manufacturing incapacity?, market perception?), but it's truly a pity. I'd still rather have an MT myself, but if you want an AT... (Honda) CVTs all the way !!! (specially if you consider that you can get them with simulated gears for the "spirited driving times"; still have to try that on my mother's Insight though...)
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TonyEX
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My only complain with the CVT is that it "feels" slow to downshift. I can usually downshift much faster, and sometimes, like when changing lanes or moving over to pass, you _need_ to downshift _now_.
Otherwise the CVT is indeed amazing. I was thinking just what you posted the other day, early morning, when I was cruising at 60 in my city's main arterials (posted at 55). The engine was loafing at 1700 rpm!
Indeed, under most cruise situations, the CVT makes the engine noise non existent.
Acceleration wise, the CVT _feels_ slow, but it really isn't. There is no feeling of acceleration as in a "normal" car. In fact, just when you feel like you're going slow, you glance at the digital speedometer and realize you're going 20 mph faster than you thought!.
I think Honda should make the CVT available in more engines. Imagine a 140bhp Civic R18 Civic or 190bhp Accord 2.4L with CVT. Those would be a nice cruisers.
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Potenza
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TonyE wrote:
Otherwise the CVT is indeed amazing. I was thinking just what you posted the other day, early morning, when I was cruising at 60 in my city's main arterials (posted at 55). The engine was loafing at 1700 rpm!
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TonyEX
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Potenza wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Otherwise the CVT is indeed amazing. I was thinking just what you posted the other day, early morning, when I was cruising at 60 in my city's main arterials (posted at 55). The engine was loafing at 1700 rpm!
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The CVT keeps the powertrain pumping only as much power as it needs.
CALCULUS: The CVT powertrain reminds me of calculus. Remember the area under the integral is the amount of energy/work? In that sense, the CVT has a theoretically infinite number of gear graphs to apply acceleration. It can keep the throttle wide open and make the engine run at its most efficient rpm via selection of a gear ratio. In this way, the CVT powertrain is the integral -it's a "work" pump.
By way of contrast, the fixed gear transmission (even multi gears are still limited) has to select a given gear and the engine rpm is -primarily- then a function of speed. In this powertrain the power if controlled by the throttle -which makes the engine run inefficiently most of the time. In this way, the fixed gear transmssion is the derivative because you're always aware of the change of power
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danielgr
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TonyE wrote:
My only complain with the CVT is that it "feels" slow to downshift. I can usually downshift much faster, and sometimes, like when changing lanes or moving over to pass, you _need_ to downshift _now_.[...]
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a) You don't have the paddles on your HCH Tony.
b) You don't use the "S" position of the gear lever. Btw, I wonder how do you access it in the HCH. In the Fit it's as quick as it gets (a simple and fast touch of the lever does it), whereas on the Insight I got the impression yesterday that you had to press the lever button to get it (as for going "P" or "R"). I'll double check this week.
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Jovian8
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This is why I dont want CVT:
Looks pretty simple doesn't it?
Looks can be deceiving.
A reader writes to me this week to tell a tale about a MINI with a Constant Velocity Transmission:
"Did you see the news item on CTV National News re the lady in Toronto with a warranty expired Mini?
Apparently her automatic transmission failed and BMW told her they do not import parts to fix transmissions.
They replace the whole Unit .
Cost is $10,000 and they are firm.
She has parked it on their lot until a more reasonable arrangement can be found.
Amazed they let her put it on national television".
So, as predicted here a couple of years ago, the downside of CVTs (apart from the dreadful driving experience),
is the downstream costs and you should be aware dear reader, because CVTs require much careful thought before
purchase! Certainly, CVTs become another item that I would not go near in buying a second hand vehicle, right alongside
turbo engines. Except, of-course for diesels where you have no choice.
First, CVTs absolutely cannot be used to tow ANYTHING. I see Nissan Muranos, which come with CVTs as standard,
like most Nissans these days equipped with huge square trailer hitches and I think
"There goes an owner that's about to be caught in the warranty trap".
Irony of ironies, Nissan dealers will sell you a trailer hitch for a Murano if you ask.
It remains to be seen if they then use abusive towing as an excuse to void the warranty when the tranny fails!
Or if the vehicle is traded in, the second owner is going to rue the day he bought a CVT.
Which means no second hand hybrids, because they are not only equipped with this expensive transmission,
but also with an equally expensive set of batteries.
Repeat after me:
When buying a new hybrid or any other new vehicle equipped with a CVT, make SURE you are always fully covered
by a comprehensive manufacturers warranty, no matter what that costs.
The internet is starting to fill up with complaints from CVT owners who now find that a "new" transmission is going to cost
US$6000 or more.
Not BMW MINI pricing, exactly, but bad enough.
The MINI that has a CVT has it as an option!
First, who on earth would buy a neatly agile little go-kart like the MINI and then weight it down with a CVT?
And secondly, the towing restriction is even worse. MINI says 1000 pounds and but I doubt that there is much out
there of the follow - along - kind that weighs that little.
MINI, of-course has neatly built in a get-out clause to void their warranty.
"Sir, this transmission has seriously abused, looks like you've been pulling a 40 foot sail boat with it"
You'll notice that the Saturn Vue came with a CVT - for about six months and then GM discontinued it.
I don't know the inside story, but some transmission engineers at head office found something they really
didn't like about CVTs and the alarm bells went off.
My transmission supplier was at a seminar in the USA recently and was told that CVTs CANNOT be repaired,
they have to be replaced with a new unit.
On a related topic. the new six and seven speed automatic transmissions being installed in a lot of high priced
cars are going to cost as much as $12000 to repair (not replace), REPAIR.
Maybe Bill Gates and The Donald don't care much, ( the Donald probably pays more than that for a new hairpiece),
but you should care.
A decision to buy some of this "green" technology can cost you lots and lots of pesos!
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danielgr
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Good call on "towing", although I believe many more than 90% of cars in the world have never tow anything... So, I honestly don't know if there is something inherent to CVT that prevents you to tow, but in any case that's not a problem with most people out there.
As for the reliability issues... I'd say if you want something reliable, or if you want to get the most out of your money, simply don't buy a BMW (or Mini for that matter). Those cars are for people that don't mind using lots of pesos for the sake of it, and I'm not surprised that :
a) they are pretty expensive to repair
b) they break down pretty easilly (when compared with other cars).
It has always been like that with BMWs, and I can't see how it would be different with the CVTs on their cars.
Now, it's not like Honda hasn't had their tall of problems with their 5AT units, and it's not like they haven't been able to solve them. Right now Honda uses more and more CVTs on their cars in Japan, and their Japanese customers are for sure the most demanding ones in terms of reliability. I'll tell you how our Fit goes, but I'll bet you that we will get rid of the car way before the tranny fails, and that most likely the tranny will outlast the car in any case.
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chavv
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danielgr wrote:
Good call on "towing", although I believe many more than 90% of cars in the world have never tow anything... So, I honestly don't know if there is something inherent to CVT that prevents you to tow, but in any case that's not a problem with most people out there.
As for the reliability issues... I'd say if you want something reliable, or if you want to get the most out of your money, simply don't buy a BMW (or Mini for that matter). Those cars are for people that don't mind using lots of pesos for the sake of it, and I'm not surprised that :
a) they are pretty expensive to repair
b) they break down pretty easilly (when compared with other cars).
It has always been like that with BMWs, and I can't see how it would be different with the CVTs on their cars.
Now, it's not like Honda hasn't had their tall of problems with their 5AT units, and it's not like they haven't been able to solve them. Right now Honda uses more and more CVTs on their cars in Japan, and their Japanese customers are for sure the most demanding ones in terms of reliability. I'll tell you how our Fit goes, but I'll bet you that we will get rid of the car way before the tranny fails, and that most likely the tranny will outlast the car in any case.
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daniel, 2y ago Autobild made 100K km test of Jazz with CVT.
The car got excellent result for reliability, but very shortly after 100K mark its CVT failed. They also claimed many mails with CVT-related problems.
Also I've read many complains from 2nd hand buyers of HR-V which was sold in Europe either with MT or CVT. (I was thinking about buying one).
It seems that 200K km is the most one can hope to have with CVT equipped HR-V before facing very expensive repairs - chain change & etc worth 4-5000 $
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danielgr
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chavv wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Good call on "towing", although I believe many more than 90% of cars in the world have never tow anything... So, I honestly don't know if there is something inherent to CVT that prevents you to tow, but in any case that's not a problem with most people out there.
As for the reliability issues... I'd say if you want something reliable, or if you want to get the most out of your money, simply don't buy a BMW (or Mini for that matter). Those cars are for people that don't mind using lots of pesos for the sake of it, and I'm not surprised that :
a) they are pretty expensive to repair
b) they break down pretty easilly (when compared with other cars).
It has always been like that with BMWs, and I can't see how it would be different with the CVTs on their cars.
Now, it's not like Honda hasn't had their tall of problems with their 5AT units, and it's not like they haven't been able to solve them. Right now Honda uses more and more CVTs on their cars in Japan, and their Japanese customers are for sure the most demanding ones in terms of reliability. I'll tell you how our Fit goes, but I'll bet you that we will get rid of the car way before the tranny fails, and that most likely the tranny will outlast the car in any case.
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daniel, 2y ago Autobild made 100K km test of Jazz with CVT.
The car got excellent result for reliability, but very shortly after 100K mark its CVT failed. They also claimed many mails with CVT-related problems.
Also I've read many complains from 2nd hand buyers of HR-V which was sold in Europe either with MT or CVT. (I was thinking about buying one).
It seems that 200K km is the most one can hope to have with CVT equipped HR-V before facing very expensive repairs - chain change & etc worth 4-5000 $
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Sure there is nothing as reliable as a Honda MT, yet we aren't talking about that now..., this is about "ATs". That said, 200K of European/Japanese conditions (with typically lots of city driving and short distances) is quite a decent life for a car before needing repairs. I've never had such an old car in the family (maximum was our 6h gen Accord that we sold after 190.000 km).
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chavv
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totally offtopic:
is there way to send in-forum PMs?
2 danielgr
well, when I looked for 2nd hand HR-V (mainly in Germany), almost all 4-5y old had already north of 100K km on them :(, or were too expensive...
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danielgr
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chavv wrote:
totally offtopic:
is there way to send in-forum PMs?
[...]
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PGH
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Jovian8 wrote:
This is why I dont want CVT:
Looks pretty simple doesn't it?
Looks can be deceiving.
A reader writes to me this week to tell a tale about a MINI with a Constant Velocity Transmission:
"Did you see the news item on CTV National News re the lady in Toronto with a warranty expired Mini?
Apparently her automatic transmission failed and BMW told her they do not import parts to fix transmissions.
They replace the whole Unit .
Cost is $10,000 and they are firm.
She has parked it on their lot until a more reasonable arrangement can be found.
Amazed they let her put it on national television".
So, as predicted here a couple of years ago, the downside of CVTs (apart from the dreadful driving experience),
is the downstream costs and you should be aware dear reader, because CVTs require much careful thought before
purchase! Certainly, CVTs become another item that I would not go near in buying a second hand vehicle, right alongside
turbo engines. Except, of-course for diesels where you have no choice.
First, CVTs absolutely cannot be used to tow ANYTHING. I see Nissan Muranos, which come with CVTs as standard,
like most Nissans these days equipped with huge square trailer hitches and I think
"There goes an owner that's about to be caught in the warranty trap".
Irony of ironies, Nissan dealers will sell you a trailer hitch for a Murano if you ask.
It remains to be seen if they then use abusive towing as an excuse to void the warranty when the tranny fails!
Or if the vehicle is traded in, the second owner is going to rue the day he bought a CVT.
Which means no second hand hybrids, because they are not only equipped with this expensive transmission,
but also with an equally expensive set of batteries.
Repeat after me:
When buying a new hybrid or any other new vehicle equipped with a CVT, make SURE you are always fully covered
by a comprehensive manufacturers warranty, no matter what that costs.
The internet is starting to fill up with complaints from CVT owners who now find that a "new" transmission is going to cost
US$6000 or more.
Not BMW MINI pricing, exactly, but bad enough.
The MINI that has a CVT has it as an option!
First, who on earth would buy a neatly agile little go-kart like the MINI and then weight it down with a CVT?
And secondly, the towing restriction is even worse. MINI says 1000 pounds and but I doubt that there is much out
there of the follow - along - kind that weighs that little.
MINI, of-course has neatly built in a get-out clause to void their warranty.
"Sir, this transmission has seriously abused, looks like you've been pulling a 40 foot sail boat with it"
You'll notice that the Saturn Vue came with a CVT - for about six months and then GM discontinued it.
I don't know the inside story, but some transmission engineers at head office found something they really
didn't like about CVTs and the alarm bells went off.
My transmission supplier was at a seminar in the USA recently and was told that CVTs CANNOT be repaired,
they have to be replaced with a new unit.
On a related topic. the new six and seven speed automatic transmissions being installed in a lot of high priced
cars are going to cost as much as $12000 to repair (not replace), REPAIR.
Maybe Bill Gates and The Donald don't care much, ( the Donald probably pays more than that for a new hairpiece),
but you should care.
A decision to buy some of this "green" technology can cost you lots and lots of pesos!
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The new Subaru OB(with CVT) can tow a 3,500 pounds.
Is this new CVT from Honda the same unit or design that was in the 1996 Civic HX?
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danielgr
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PGH wrote:
Is this new CVT from Honda the same unit or design that was in the 1996 Civic HX?
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The current one I tested debuted with the current gen JDM Fit.
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6SPDTL
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I haven't tried Honda's "new" CVT. I tried the civic hybrid. I HATED it. It felt like an auto tranny that was slipping. The engine races to accelerate without any real evident acceleration. I haven't tried a non hybrid application of a honda CVT, however I did rent a nissan Rogue with a CVT. In the rogue the CVT was actually quite good, it provided strong acceleration and was otherwise very similar in opertion to a normal auto except without gear changes.
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PGH
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danielgr wrote:
PGH wrote:
Is this new CVT from Honda the same unit or design that was in the 1996 Civic HX?
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The current one I tested debuted with the current gen JDM Fit.
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Thanks D - I know Honda worked with a Dutch -Van Doorn Transmissie on the metal belt for the 96 HX and Honda was working on a CVT since 1981.
Why has the US market not seen any CVT equipped cars since 96 and do you see mainstream products like the CRV and Accord using this application in the future?
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danielgr
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6SPDTL wrote:
I haven't tried Honda's "new" CVT. I tried the civic hybrid. I HATED it. It felt like an auto tranny that was slipping. The engine races to accelerate without any real evident acceleration. I haven't tried a non hybrid application of a honda CVT, however I did rent a nissan Rogue with a CVT. In the rogue the CVT was actually quite good, it provided strong acceleration and was otherwise very similar in opertion to a normal auto except without gear changes.
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6SPDTL
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Could be true but the rogue CVT was actually very good and provided excellent acceleration and economy. For example the rogue has only about 15 HP more than the CRV however its almost 3 sec faster to 60 and offers the same fuel economy. That said, renault and nissan have a pretty big lead in mainstreaming CVT's, they even have CVT on powerful 6 cylinder engines. Honda has always been behind on automatics. However they have always made the best manuals, which they have been squeezing out of the US market to my great chagrin. They put a manual on the TL, however, they deleted it from the Fit and the CRV which are by all measures the cars that most benefit from a manual to begin with! Silly. but its the US market, few things make sense anymore.
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danielgr
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6SPDTL wrote:
Could be true but the rogue CVT was actually very good and provided excellent acceleration and economy.[...]
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danielgr
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PGH wrote:
danielgr wrote:
PGH wrote:
Is this new CVT from Honda the same unit or design that was in the 1996 Civic HX?
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The current one I tested debuted with the current gen JDM Fit.
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Thanks D - I know Honda worked with a Dutch -Van Doorn Transmissie on the metal belt for the 96 HX and Honda was working on a CVT since 1981.
Why has the US market not seen any CVT equipped cars since 96 and do you see mainstream products like the CRV and Accord using this application in the future?
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- Honda produces CVTs in house and currently only in Japan.
- CVTs are certainly more expensive to produce, and you have to be pretty sure customers are going to value their advantages (mainly smoothness and FE) if you are going to make them pay for it.
- Reliability may be more delicate, and Honda may not want to risk it in very high mileage countries (US) or rougher ones (ASEAN).
- Something else ?
The fact is I don't think you'll see any non-hybrid Honda CVT car in the US anytime soon. If you look at the current trend, JDM line-up is being progressively CVTized (right now CVTs are offered in all of their main selling vehicles : Fit, Insight, Freed, StepWGN, Stream, Odyssey...) while the rest of the world is moving away from it (Europe and ASEAN being the most recent examples). I guess that Japanese "practical" approach to cars, together with their high FE conscience and nearly 100% AT penetration in mainly small engined cars makes it the perfect playground for Honda. Maybe there is no other market like it around...
The only thing I could see pushing CVTs in the US for Honda is people getting more interested in FE and Honda failing to compete on that field without it (it's what happened in Japan with the StepWGN for example, which was trailing the CVT equipped competition until its recent restyling; now it's leading again).
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Potenza
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6SPDTL wrote:
They put a manual on the TL, however, they deleted it from the Fit and the CRV which are by all measures the cars that most benefit from a manual to begin with!
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TonyEX
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6SPDTL wrote:
I haven't tried Honda's "new" CVT. I tried the civic hybrid. I HATED it. It felt like an auto tranny that was slipping. The engine races to accelerate without any real evident acceleration. I haven't tried a non hybrid application of a honda CVT, however I did rent a nissan Rogue with a CVT. In the rogue the CVT was actually quite good, it provided strong acceleration and was otherwise very similar in opertion to a normal auto except without gear changes.
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Dude.... it's a completely different way of driving. It "feels" slow indeed, but it really isn't so. The feeling of speed that we correlate with engine RPM is just not there.
Go with the flow man....
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TonyEX
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Potenza wrote:
6SPDTL wrote:
They put a manual on the TL, however, they deleted it from the Fit and the CRV which are by all measures the cars that most benefit from a manual to begin with!
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Not with the Navi... >:-P
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RayChuang
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I for one would love to see Honda offer their CVT on the Honda Fit models for the US market soon--after all, JDM Fits are all CVT, including the RS ("Road Soaring") model with the L15A i-VTEC engine. If Honda does that I'm replacing my trusty, but starting to get long-in-the-tooth 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT coupe.
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RayChuang
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As an owner of a 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT coupe, I can say the acceleration is a "different" experience--you see the engine "hold" at around 3200 rpm as the pulleys on the CVT adjust their widths during hard acceleration.
But it is incredibly smooth, and after being so used to my car driving a 5AT Honda Civic feels a big clunky and rough in comparison.
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Nick GravesX
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Part of the problem with CVT sales is the witch-burning attitudes of car buyers - the design is so efficient & seamless, the unwashed interpret it as slip & prefer their old jerk-o-matics from the 1930s.
There IS a wear problem and a friction problem with CVTs - imagine a watch bracelet stretched over two conical pulleys and it's only the molecular stick of the oil which keeps them apart, cools them and transmits the power. You can see why the long-chain polymers get chewed up and muppets who think a service is a religious ritual are gonna be disppointed.
Also, due to that British bugger Isaac Newton and his peculiar motions, however high you overdrive the watch strap, you are always gonna lose energy as friction compared to a straight through shaft you can simply lock out. Thus for freeway cruising, a CVT is always at a disadvantage over a DSG or converter-coupling epicyclic (so long as you lock up that coupling and release all those brakes).
So that's why CVTs are great in polite, traffic-clogged Japan and not in Death-Race 2000 Europe or 18-wheeler wannabe US...
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RayChuang
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I'd almost agree, but Fallbrook Technologies' NuVinci CVP overcomes the problems you mentioned and that's why the within the next few years we may start seeing automobiles using CVT gearboxes designed around this new technology.
I do know that Nissan has done pretty well with their JATCO CVT's found on most of their US product line.
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Nick GravesX
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It's a while since I looked at that.
It will be interesting to see if what is in effect a clever and practical development of the toroidal transmission actually does overcome the problems, beyond a bicycle level of torque. Or the Rotrex charger on an S2000!
I can see similar problems of wear and heat dissipation in automotive applications. Especially for those who neglect the correct fluid changes.
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Longhorn
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Nissan has gone full bore on the CVT and they seem to have no problems. The Altima is eerily smooth in the shift department with the CVT. Why doesn't Honda follow suit? I believe they are working on a different technology,the DSG.
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WongKN
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Good for you Daniel. And I think now you fully understand why I think so highly of the CVT and MMT (what CVT is usually called in Japan) and also why I thought so lowly of Honda's decision to drop the CVT and resort to the standard 5AT in the latest City and Jazz for Asia.
My family car/daily driver has been using the MMT/CVT ever since 1998, meaning I have been driving such a gearbox for 12 years now and I continue to think that a standard AT, no matter how many gears, will never match an MMT or CVT, for normal daily drivers and for not so large engines.
A few points:
1. The superior FE of an MMT/CVT vs AT or even a manual is simply that it can run at extremely low gear ratios at light throttle cruising. Regular gearboxes with fixed number of gears simply run into problems with the gear ratio spacing and other considerations. But not with the MMT/CVT. The standard 90-100kph cruising rpm for my Jazz VTEC is 1,900rpm, which even the 5MT option does not offer. The only way the 5MT could return better FE is that is is more efficient (less power loss).
2. When the first Honda MMT came out, Honda stated that the power handling limit for the gearbox was around 130ps (which is the max power of the D15B 3-stage VTEC which came with the car). That was with the start-up clutch. Later versions which replaced the start-up clutch with a torque converter (i.e. most of the current MMT/CVTs) can handle much higher power. The JDM Odyssey uses an MMT with the 160ps K24A.
3. The start-up clutch is the weakness component of the gearbox. In the absolute term, it is still reliable but compared to what is normally expected from Honda, occurrences of start-up clutch failure was a bit higher than normal. This has led to malicious rumours being circulated amongst a number of ASEAN countries especially with regards to the previous generation City and Jazz. This was one of the factors which lead Honda to abandon the CVT and resort to the (IMHO) inferior 5AT for the new City/Jazz. This is especially ironic since the latest CVT for these models has done away with the start-up clutch and now uses a torque-converter.
If you have a chance, you should try to 'play' with the MMT/CVT more. The more you drive it, the more you will like it. At least that was how it is with me. Due to the superior ability to optimize drive (matching best possible gear ratio to best possible engine rpm for a given condition), an MMT/CVT equipped Honda can often take on cars with larger and more powerful engine in a 'grudge' match, meaning we can 'look after ourselves' in many events on the road which might require a sudden burst of speed and handling. For e.g. I have taken on a 155ps 2.0l V6 Nissan Eternia equivalent in my previous JDM EK3 Civic Ferio Vi. The guy got so frustrated he just gave up (trying to overtake me) after a number of tries because while I couldn't pull away from him, he too couldn't overtake me.
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danielgr
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WongKN wrote:
[...]If you have a chance, you should try to 'play' with the MMT/CVT more. The more you drive it, the more you will like it. At least that was how it is with me. Due to the superior ability to optimize drive (matching best possible gear ratio to best possible engine rpm for a given condition), an MMT/CVT equipped Honda can often take on cars with larger and more powerful engine in a 'grudge' match, meaning we can 'look after ourselves' in many events on the road which might require a sudden burst of speed and handling. For e.g. I have taken on a 155ps 2.0l V6 Nissan Eternia equivalent in my previous JDM EK3 Civic Ferio Vi. The guy got so frustrated he just gave up (trying to overtake me) after a number of tries because while I couldn't pull away from him, he too couldn't overtake me. |
As you said, for daily drivers and relatively small engines I don't think there is anything as good as CVT, and for hybrids it's even better. I'm also relieved to hear that most reliability concerns had to do with the start-up clutch, and that therefore both of our cars shouldn't have those problems (since both have the torque-converter instead).
I'm still looking forward to get my own car though, and it'll have to be a manual. I hope I won't regret it when having to change my gears with the left hand in the middle of Japanese traffic. I'm sure I'll going to have a hard time when I finally decide to sell it anyway :) :) :)
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