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TR
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Here's the main reason IMO...
Yesterday I was getting a coffee in our company's cafe and overheard conversation our product manager had with QA manager.
Product mgr. is looking to replace his high mileage E46 BMW and he wants a good commuter car with great fuel economy. He was saying that since it's a commuter car, it must have nice interior, leather etc. (basically to feel good commuting).
So he went to see Prius first. He was amazed how expansive it gets once you start adding things. Not sure what he added, but he said it was over $30K. He also wasn't crazy about the exterior design.
Then he went to see Insight... He almost sounded angry and said: "it's a piece of shit!... rear drum brakes, worse MPGs than Prius... outdated technology".
In the end he said that he will most likely go with diesel A3.
What I got out of all of this is that people with money (main Prius customers) are willing to pay for better package. I'm sure that if Insight offered a nicely loaded model that undercut Prius, he'd go for it (because A3 diesel would have similar MPG as Insight).
I don't understand why Honda doesn't offer it yet.
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80honda
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I hope you explained to him that rear drums on a hybrid would rarely be used and should last the lifetime of the car. and the 3-4mpg difference he would see in the real world between a Prius and an Insight would take a couple of decades to recoup if he went with the expensive Prius.
If something as mundane as rear drums are bothering him, he should not be looking at a hybrid. Clearly he autocrosses and needed the superior heat dissipation provided by rear disk, so a hybrid isn't a good choice for him.
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TR
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80honda wrote:
I hope you explained to him that rear drums on a hybrid would rarely be used and should last the lifetime of the car. and the 3-4mpg difference he would see in the real world between a Prius and an Insight would take a couple of decades to recoup if he went with the expensive Prius.
If something as mundane as rear drums are bothering him, he should not be looking at a hybrid. Clearly he autocrosses and needed the superior heat dissipation provided by rear disk, so a hybrid isn't a good choice for him.
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I'd appreciate it if you never responded to my posts anymore.
You clearly are either mentally ill or so biased that can't see past H. All your posts are empty.
You also clearly don't understand marketing and sales. I don't have to explain anything to him.
He (and apparently 10s of 1000s of other people) pick more expansive/luxurious/economical Prius because it's "better" as THEY see it. Everything else absolutely does NOT matter.
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80honda
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If Rear disk are so important to him, along with spending more money, why didn't he look at the more expensive Civic Hybrid?
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CivicB18
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To try to add something more substantial vs "others" TR, you have to consider that even though the Insight and Prius are somewhat direct competitors, the Insight was designed from the start to lure in consumers who wanted a dedicated hybrid yet didn't want to or didn't have the extra funds required to purchase/own a Prius. Unfortunately for Honda, that plan didn't do well for sales volumes but it did make Toyota take notice and release a cheaper Prius.
You also have to consider that the Prius already was firmly established in the market, has many more available options and features, its larger inside, and its has a more substantial feel vs the Insight. All those things add up its success.
~Patrick
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TR
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CivicB18 wrote:
To try to add something more substantial vs "others" TR, you have to consider that even though the Insight and Prius are somewhat direct competitors, the Insight was designed from the start to lure in consumers who wanted a dedicated hybrid yet didn't want to or didn't have the extra funds required to purchase/own a Prius. Unfortunately for Honda, that plan didn't do well for sales volumes but it did make Toyota take notice and release a cheaper Prius.
You also have to consider that the Prius already was firmly established in the market, has many more available options and features, its larger inside, and its has a more substantial feel vs the Insight. All those things add up its success.
~Patrick
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That's precisely my point. I think that now (after the initial idea hasn't work) it would beneficial for Honda to have an optional package to bring Insight closer, if not the same level, to Prius "luxury".
People will pay for it and Insight will still be profitable.
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davejazz
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Seems like it's all personal taste and hard to say if "he's right" or "he's wrong".
Personally, I live in a small town in upstate NY (pop. 14,000 or so) and only have a 10 minute "commute" to work each day. In fact, it's more like 5 minutes in the morning and 10 on the way home.
What I like about the Insight is getting something like 35 mpg in my city driving instead of the 15 mpg in my last SUV. What worries me about it is its closeness to the ground (we get a LOT of winter snow) and how well the heater will work once it turns cold.
What I didn't like was the fact that I had to take it or leave it at the dealer's because Honda (Japan) refused to build the car (color, navi) I really wanted. The dealer only had just so many Insights alotted. None of the dealers within 500 miles had the car I wanted!
Was it Henry Ford who said you can have any color you want as long as it's black?
More options and a better distribution system appears to be the Insight's weakness but overall, I'm very pleased with the car and its quality.
P.S.
It's nice to only gas up once a month whether I need to or not! I'm usually at 1/2 tank when I do!
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ciwai08
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TR wrote:
Here's the main reason IMO...
Yesterday I was getting a coffee in our company's cafe and overheard conversation our product manager had with QA manager.
Product mgr. is looking to replace his high mileage E46 BMW and he wants a good commuter car with great fuel economy. He was saying that since it's a commuter car, it must have nice interior, leather etc. (basically to feel good commuting).
So he went to see Prius first. He was amazed how expansive it gets once you start adding things. Not sure what he added, but he said it was over $30K. He also wasn't crazy about the exterior design.
Then he went to see Insight... He almost sounded angry and said: "it's a piece of shit!... rear drum brakes, worse MPGs than Prius... outdated technology".
In the end he said that he will most likely go with diesel A3.
What I got out of all of this is that people with money (main Prius customers) are willing to pay for better package. I'm sure that if Insight offered a nicely loaded model that undercut Prius, he'd go for it (because A3 diesel would have similar MPG as Insight).
I don't understand why Honda doesn't offer it yet.
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Interesting thoughts. I read some posts on another forum that suggested honda really blew it by changing it too much from the concept. At first it made me laugh, since the concept was just a moderately disguised production version--the major body panels look virtually the same--but maybe they are on to something. The concept looked clean and progressive, but somehow in the translation to production it screams econobox. The door handles in particular, but also the stance is really hurting it. The dash is a disaster of parts bin engineering. It gives the opposite impression of being a high tech, sophisticated hybrid technology--or in the words of the conversation you overheard, "its a piece of shit!" I don't think loading it up with features will change that perception, but making it a virtual clone of the Insight concept on the exterior, and throwing out the dash and putting in a cleaner, more sophisticated interior for the MMC might save it. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt if gas went up to $5/gallon.
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lexusgs
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TR wrote:
80honda wrote:
I hope you explained to him that rear drums on a hybrid would rarely be used and should last the lifetime of the car. and the 3-4mpg difference he would see in the real world between a Prius and an Insight would take a couple of decades to recoup if he went with the expensive Prius.
If something as mundane as rear drums are bothering him, he should not be looking at a hybrid. Clearly he autocrosses and needed the superior heat dissipation provided by rear disk, so a hybrid isn't a good choice for him.
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I'd appreciate it if you never responded to my posts anymore.
You clearly are either mentally ill or so biased that can't see past H. All your posts are empty.
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Unfortunately every time anyone here is the least bit critical of a Honda or Acura or the brands he always has to chime in with his snide pointless comments blindly defending honda and acura and tries to insult anyone that has anything critical to say. He contributes nothing to the conversation or debate other then to irritate people with his blind love for Honda and Acura. Just try to ignore him.
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Potenza
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I don't understand. Your product manager doesn't want to pay $30k for a Prius, because that's too expensive. But he doesn't want the Insight because it doesn't have leather, and its 40/43 EPA rating is worse than the Prius. So his conclusion is to buy the A3 diesel, which starts at $30k and is rated 30/42? And you're using this single example to explain why the Insight doesn't sell well?
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Potenza
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80honda wrote:
If Rear disk are so important to him, along with spending more money, why didn't he look at the more expensive Civic Hybrid?
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TR
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Potenza wrote:
I don't understand. Your product manager doesn't want to pay $30k for a Prius, because that's too expensive. But he doesn't want the Insight because it doesn't have leather, and its 40/43 EPA rating is worse than the Prius. So his conclusion is to buy the A3 diesel, which starts at $30k and is rated 30/42? And you're using this single example to explain why the Insight doesn't sell well?
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I'll try to repeat my main point again.
His first (and final) impression of Insight was negative. It was negative because Insight looks low tech to people who don't know much about cars. And it felt cheap inside.
So why do I, or anyone else have to explain to him that his reasoning is wrong? The bottom line is that this is how people see it. I'm sure that many people see it that way - sales and general comments from other people show this.
Regarding his choice... if Insight offered more "luxury" and features, it would/could still be cheaper than $30K Prius. And that's what he was looking for.
Anyway, as I said, his opinion of Insight was negative for reasons Honda could easily fix. This is the bottom line and this is how many people see it. Stupid or smart?... doesn't matter at the end of the day.
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80honda
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Potenza wrote:
I don't understand. Your product manager doesn't want to pay $30k for a Prius, because that's too expensive. But he doesn't want the Insight because it doesn't have leather, and its 40/43 EPA rating is worse than the Prius. So his conclusion is to buy the A3 diesel, which starts at $30k and is rated 30/42? And you're using this single example to explain why the Insight doesn't sell well?
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Good points, his product manager sounds like an idiot.
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Kn1ves
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Product manager might be stupid, but so is the general population; TR's point has a lot of validity.
Perception is everything, and when something is perceived as low class and 2nd grade in quality, it hardly commands a second look from the people that want the best.
*ehem*
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Potenza
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TR wrote:
Regarding his choice... if Insight offered more "luxury" and features, it would/could still be cheaper than $30K Prius. And that's what he was looking for.
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The Insight was built from the start to be the world's least expensive hybrid. That was the goal, to allow people who previously couldn't afford a hybrid the chance to purchase one. Your product manager drove an E46 BMW and is now considering an Audi A3. Let's face it, the Insight is not his type of car, and this single anecdote is not the slightest bit relevant to the Insight.
If anything, this topic could be about making the 9th gen Civic Hybrid (Honda's larger, more powerful, more fuel efficient, more luxurious hybrid) a true Prius competitor for those that find the Insight not enough for their needs.
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Doc Dave
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TR's Production Manager clearly needs a vehicle that is more upscale, being a Manager in the company, and so the Insight's lack of quality & performance appears to be unsuitable for maintaining his image/status.
His choice of the Audi A3 Diesel seems to confirm this as the Audi is a different class of vehicle and cannot be compared to the Insight or the Prius.
I have test driven both the Insight and the 2010 Prius and must say I prefer the Prius over the Insight as the Prius has a more powerful engine.
BTW, why did he not test drive the Ford Fusion Hybrid as it is a much more upscale vehicle with all the options he can get and it not as expensive as the A3. It is also the most powerful of the three Hybrids. I have driven the Fusion and must say if I were to go Hybrid that would be my choice.
For city commute the Hybrid rules but for long commutes with Hwys a Diesel will be more suitable.
Has he also considered the VW Jetta TDI or the BMW 335d?
The 335d with 265HP + 425 lb-ft torque will certainly be the right car for his status/image?
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Grace141
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Potenza wrote:
TR wrote:
Regarding his choice... if Insight offered more "luxury" and features, it would/could still be cheaper than $30K Prius. And that's what he was looking for.
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The Insight was built from the start to be the world's least expensive hybrid. That was the goal, to allow people who previously couldn't afford a hybrid the chance to purchase one. Your product manager drove an E46 BMW and is now considering an Audi A3. Let's face it, the Insight is not his type of car, and this single anecdote is not the slightest bit relevant to the Insight.
If anything, this topic could be about making the 9th gen Civic Hybrid (Honda's larger, more powerful, more fuel efficient, more luxurious hybrid) a true Prius competitor for those that find the Insight not enough for their needs.
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I'll second this. I wonder how many of the folks here in the US who are currently looking at the Insight and walking away disappointed are simply the "latest cool car" people who a few years ago bought Hummers and then complained about the gas mileage. There are a bunch of former PT Cruiser owners out there.
All of this brings me back to the Smart car. In my area, the typical Smart car is being driven by older suburbanites who for some reason purchased a car clearly marketed as a city car and then they take them out on the Interstates.
Once or twice a year, someone at work will walk up to me and say they just bought their first Honda and they really like the car but they wish it were bigger with a bigger engine with more power and it had more luxury features. When I ask if they drove cars of other brands that met their desires they usually say something like no because they wanted a Honda. Go figure.
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intune
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Potenza wrote:
TR wrote:
Regarding his choice... if Insight offered more "luxury" and features, it would/could still be cheaper than $30K Prius. And that's what he was looking for.
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The Insight was built from the start to be the world's least expensive hybrid. That was the goal, to allow people who previously couldn't afford a hybrid the chance to purchase one. Your product manager drove an E46 BMW and is now considering an Audi A3. Let's face it, the Insight is not his type of car, and this single anecdote is not the slightest bit relevant to the Insight.
If anything, this topic could be about making the 9th gen Civic Hybrid (Honda's larger, more powerful, more fuel efficient, more luxurious hybrid) a true Prius competitor for those that find the Insight not enough for their needs. |
You are correct in your conclusion that the Insight is not what he was looking for. The problem is that Honda priced the Insight in such a way that people do end up comparing it to the Prius, and thus end up disappointed. Instead of looking at the car based on it's own merits, it is continually compared to the Prius, where it comes up short (no pun intended) in several areas. Had the Insight come in $2k cheaper, it would be much less likely to be cross-shopped, and people considering plunking $30k+ down on a car would not even give it a glance. Notice that in the markets where the Insight is doing well, it is priced significantly below the competition from Toyota.
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aznstuart
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"Had the Insight come $2,000 cheaper," Honda would be losing money on each Insight they sold like the previous generation HCH and Insight. "Had the Insight come $2,000 cheaper," you would be looking at a base Insight with 13" wheels, no AC, no side/curtain airbags, and no brakes at all.
You're asking too much of Honda. The Insight is clearly based off the Fit. It's a cross between a Civic Hybrid and a Fit, basically. The difference between a Fit Base and an Insight LX is about $5,000, which is the same cost difference from a Civic LX to a Civic Hybrid.
Right now, the Hybrid heirarchy puts the Insight below the Civic Hybrid. The new Civic Hybrid coming out next year should impress with more features and power that would rival the Prius.
Personally, I think Honda should convert the FCX into a hybrid. That kinda body design and size and presence would make the perfect Prius competitor.
The reason why people compare the Insight to the Prius (even though Honda doesn't want them to) is because that's the only comparable thing to the Prius in the Honda lineup. The Civic Hybrid isn't comparable because it's a different body style. If Honda offered a more upscale hybrid hatchback, then the Insight would be off the hook in terms of build quality and design.
Until then, people will continue to call the Insight an "entry level car"...like it is, but in a negative way. People will begin to accept the fact that the Insight is an entry level car once Honda produces a big brother to it.
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TR
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aznstuart wrote:
"Had the Insight come $2,000 cheaper," Honda would be losing money on each Insight they sold like the previous generation HCH and Insight. "Had the Insight come $2,000 cheaper," you would be looking at a base Insight with 13" wheels, no AC, no side/curtain airbags, and no brakes at all.
You're asking too much of Honda. The Insight is clearly based off the Fit. It's a cross between a Civic Hybrid and a Fit, basically. The difference between a Fit Base and an Insight LX is about $5,000, which is the same cost difference from a Civic LX to a Civic Hybrid.
Right now, the Hybrid heirarchy puts the Insight below the Civic Hybrid. The new Civic Hybrid coming out next year should impress with more features and power that would rival the Prius.
Personally, I think Honda should convert the FCX into a hybrid. That kinda body design and size and presence would make the perfect Prius competitor.
The reason why people compare the Insight to the Prius (even though Honda doesn't want them to) is because that's the only comparable thing to the Prius in the Honda lineup. The Civic Hybrid isn't comparable because it's a different body style. If Honda offered a more upscale hybrid hatchback, then the Insight would be off the hook in terms of build quality and design.
Until then, people will continue to call the Insight an "entry level car"...like it is, but in a negative way. People will begin to accept the fact that the Insight is an entry level car once Honda produces a big brother to it.
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Nice to see someone else get it...
You can call this product manager any names you want and dream up excuses, but I'll say it again - perception and initial opinion is what matters the most when you are trying to sell something.
Honda can do nothing and consider 10s of 1000s people stupid and idiots for not buying Insight... or Honda can do something about it.
When someone's (especially people who know little about cars) shopping for Hybrid, 2 cars come in mind - Prius and Insight. It's just a natural comparison and Civic Hybrid is not part of it. Again, that's just the way it is... call it stupid or idiotic, but it's not going to do any good for Honda.
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MugenLee
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I was in the market for a car just this past month. After many test drives, research and some feedback from TOV, I ended up with 3 cars on the list: Civic Si, Element SC and Insight.
I eliminated the Si because I was coming from a Accord, and the whole sedan body style was getting old while the premium gas and higher insurance rates didn't justify the bump in sportiness. I also didn't need the extra power.
I liked the higher MPG and hatchback/wagon body style of the Insight. I wasn't sold on paying that much for a car that felt less substantial than either of the other two cars. Interior and ride quality were ok, but nothing to cheer about. Interior space was lacking behind the front seats, and the cargo area was too shallow to carry much other than groceries.
I ended up with a 2007 Element SC. One month in and I love almost everything about it; the only gripe is that the 24-25 MPG is a little low.
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Potenza
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intune wrote:
The problem is that Honda priced the Insight in such a way that people do end up comparing it to the Prius, and thus end up disappointed. Instead of looking at the car based on its own merits, it is continually compared to the Prius, where it comes up short (no pun intended) in several areas. Had the Insight come in $2k cheaper, it would be much less likely to be cross-shopped, and people considering plunking $30k+ down on a car would not even give it a glance. Notice that in the markets where the Insight is doing well, it is priced significantly below the competition from Toyota.
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Anyway, I don't think we'll be getting the Fit Hybrid in the U.S., but it will be interesting to see a price comparison between that, the regular Fit, and the Insight. I'm interested to see where the costs are in the Insight - be it the platform or the IMA. Or maybe it's a yen/dollar value problem for the U.S.
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Potenza
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TR wrote:
Nice to see someone else get it...
You can call this product manager any names you want and dream up excuses, but I'll say it again - perception and initial opinion is what matters the most when you are trying to sell something.
Honda can do nothing and consider 10s of 1000s people stupid and idiots for not buying Insight... or Honda can do something about it.
When someone's (especially people who know little about cars) shopping for Hybrid, 2 cars come in mind - Prius and Insight. It's just a natural comparison and Civic Hybrid is not part of it. Again, that's just the way it is... call it stupid or idiotic, but it's not going to do any good for Honda.
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My point is that your one anecdote about this guy you know does not dictate why the Insight isn't selling well. This one guy's opinion has nothing to do with anything. The Prius didn't please him, the Insight didn't please him... he's going to buy an Audi instead... so what? Are you trying to make the point that the $20k Insight should be competitive to a $30k Audi to please that one guy?
Did the guy even drive the Insight? Because, coming from an E46 BMW, I highly doubt he would think it powerful enough. I highly doubt he would like the handling. So on top of the fact that it doesn't have the brakes he wants, the interior he wants, the options and features he wants, or the "technology" (aka EPA rating) he wants, let's also assume that it doesn't have the suspension/steering he wants, or the power he wants. So if we just change all that about the Insight, this guy you know might be interested?
I get it. We hear you. That guy wants more luxury/features than the Insight has to offer. But at some point you're asking for a car that is no longer the Insight. If we took an Insight and changed everything about it, is it even an Insight? Do you see what I'm saying?
Just call this thread "I wish Honda made a hybrid that fit these needs:" and then list them, and I won't disagree one bit. But to act like this one guy's wants are everyone's wants and that is why the Insight isn't selling well... that is stupid. The end.
(I'm sorry, but these types of threads just drive me nuts, where people use ONE example to try to make a complete conclusion. Like the thread a while back where one guy said "My local Acura dealer closed... what does that say about Acura?" and tries to conclude that this ONE dealership closing means that Acura is a failing company and it's because of the Power Plenum. Give us a break with this stuff.)
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Waldo
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TR wrote:
Potenza wrote:
I don't understand. Your product manager doesn't want to pay $30k for a Prius, because that's too expensive. But he doesn't want the Insight because it doesn't have leather, and its 40/43 EPA rating is worse than the Prius. So his conclusion is to buy the A3 diesel, which starts at $30k and is rated 30/42? And you're using this single example to explain why the Insight doesn't sell well?
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I'll try to repeat my main point again.
His first (and final) impression of Insight was negative. It was negative because Insight looks low tech to people who don't know much about cars. And it felt cheap inside.
So why do I, or anyone else have to explain to him that his reasoning is wrong? The bottom line is that this is how people see it. I'm sure that many people see it that way - sales and general comments from other people show this.
Regarding his choice... if Insight offered more "luxury" and features, it would/could still be cheaper than $30K Prius. And that's what he was looking for.
Anyway, as I said, his opinion of Insight was negative for reasons Honda could easily fix. This is the bottom line and this is how many people see it. Stupid or smart?... doesn't matter at the end of the day.
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TR
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I'm just trying to have a civil discussion and trying to see what people think the reasons are.
The reason I posted is just one example (and my opinion, so why is it stupid?), but I have heard similar gripes about Insight multiple times.
And I'm not asking for a different car. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have an optional package to satisfy people who are shopping in Prius price range.
How's Civic EX-L no longer a Civic when compared to DX? If the car as it stands doesn't sell, why not consider something to improve it?
Most importantly, if you see a winning formula (Prius), and your formula ("hybrid for everyone") failed, why not copy winning formula? Please don't tell me it's better not to do anything.
This thread isn't going anywhere... so whatever.
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Potenza
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TR wrote:
I'm just trying to have a civil discussion and trying to see what people think the reasons are.
The reason I posted is just one example (and my opinion, so why is it stupid?), but I have heard similar gripes about Insight multiple times.
And I'm not asking for a different car. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have an optional package to satisfy people who are shopping in Prius price range.
How's Civic EX-L no longer a Civic when compared to DX? If the car as it stands doesn't sell, why not consider something to improve it?
Most importantly, if you see a winning formula (Prius), and your formula ("hybrid for everyone") failed, why not copy winning formula? Please don't tell me it's better not to do anything.
This thread isn't going anywhere... so whatever.
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It's just that, if the Prius formula is a winner, why didn't your guy buy it? With that knowledge, I figure that the Insight, being the lesser car (which admittedly it is), even if it had additional options, would not be bought by your guy either. That's all I'm saying.
If Honda offered an Insight with rear disc brakes and leather, for $24k, would your friend have definitely bought it?
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ipribadi
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Interesting post.
I agree with others that it seems the Prod Mgr was not even close to the target market of the Insight at all.
What's interesting is how the Insight caught the Prod Mgr interest enough to visit a Honde dealer and check it out.
This might be an oversight by Honda.
The Insight hybrid catches attention of a wide market: those lured in by the promise of a low cost hybrid, and those with cash looking for the latest cool hip thing.
The Prod Mgr was the latter, but was left disappointed.
The reason the Prod Mgr didn't even consider the Civic .. was because it has the "Civic" image.
Believe it or not the Insight's image is still in the process of being defined .. mysterious enough to lure in the Prod Mgr in what he/she thought was perhaps a super high tech, nice & smooth, green, "young" imaged, hip machine.
If the Insight's image turns out to be the "el cheapo" hybrid which is then synonymous to "compromise" hybrid, then Honda has their work cut out for them.
I know there may be a technical limitation to improve the Insight's mpg over the Prius, but if a Insight Touring was offered with "what it would take" to give the Insight a premium feel and image, it may have caught such a market.
-- or -- Honda needs to offer another hybrid product squarely designed to catch this market. Toyota/Lexus is already trying to with the HS250h.
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TR
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I agree that it's hard to understand his rational, but I got an impression that he'd get Insight that you described in the last sentence. I think he didn't want to pay $30K for nicely optioned hybrid and did not want to get cheap looking Insight even though it's less $$$. He probably said to himself: "F it, I'll get a diesel A3 and have the best of all worlds". I don't think money is what he's concerned about. It's what he's getting for the money. And he wants a nice commute car with little compromises.
Insight has a huge advantage over Prius, and that is cheaper hybrid powertrain. This means that Honda can still undercut Prius while providing similar options.
I'm not interested in hybrids myself, but if I had to buy one, I would like to have basic "luxury" features available. I actually feel that way about any entry level car. One of the reasons I got Si was because it has relatively high quality interior and no cost cutting on brakes, powertrain, etc.
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jcn02acc
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The Insight does not sell well because the typical hybrid buyer does not have low price high on their priority list. People who are on a budget do the math, and see that hybrids taker forever to recoup the cost difference in fuel savings. The true hybrid buyer is someone who can afford to pay more to "protect the enviroment". These people want a nicely equipped car, and will pay for it.
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6SPDTL
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How about because its a crappy car????
Why try to cover it up, the fact that it has a hybrid drivetrain doesn't make up for the fact that its otherwise at best mediocre in all respects. Total and utter waste of company resources. They might have simply made a Fit hybrid, at least other than bad acceleration, it would retain all of the many Fit's virtues.
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