Carzzz
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TSX V6 just spanked accord v6 auto!
TSX rated at 280 on premium
accord v6 rated 271 on regular
The difference is almost 30 whp!
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80honda
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It would be interesting to see the
Accord automatic 3.5
Accord manual 3.5
TSX V6
graphs overlaid on each other.
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JeffX
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80honda wrote:
It would be interesting to see the
Accord automatic 3.5
Accord manual 3.5
TSX V6
graphs overlaid on each other.
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I just added it to the article. here's the plot
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99SI
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Man VCM really ruins that engine....
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HappaSaiyan
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Jeff wrote:
80honda wrote:
It would be interesting to see the
Accord automatic 3.5
Accord manual 3.5
TSX V6
graphs overlaid on each other.
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I just added it to the article. here's the plot
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assuming all of these runs are run in similar conditions, same dyno, etc...
...the accord coupe v6 6mt makes more power from idle to redline than the tsx v6? impressive.
that accord v6 5at plot is pathetic.
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80honda
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Jeff wrote:
80honda wrote:
It would be interesting to see the
Accord automatic 3.5
Accord manual 3.5
TSX V6
graphs overlaid on each other.
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I just added it to the article. here's the plot
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Wow, the VCM version is dramatically different.
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RyanDL
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HappaSaiyan wrote:
Jeff wrote:
80honda wrote:
It would be interesting to see the
Accord automatic 3.5
Accord manual 3.5
TSX V6
graphs overlaid on each other.
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I just added it to the article. here's the plot
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assuming all of these runs are run in similar conditions, same dyno, etc...
...the accord coupe v6 6mt makes more power from idle to redline than the tsx v6? impressive.
that accord v6 5at plot is pathetic.
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You have to consider that the Auto saps power compared to the Manual. Really hard to compare the 3 cars since you have 2 variables between them instead of 1.
Ryan
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owequitit
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While the TSX certainly made more power, one thing that must be highlighted about the Accord is that below 4200 the graphs are not comparable. Jeff had no way to prevent the Accord from downshifting below that RPM, so he couldn't start the full throttle dyno run until that RPM. With the TSX, he had Sportshift and was able to choose and lock a gear.
However, I still maintain that some variation of this engine with a 6AT would probably have gotten equal or better MPG versus the Accord V6.
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JeffX
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owequitit wrote:
While the TSX certainly made more power, one thing that must be highlighted about the Accord is that below 4200 the graphs are not comparable. Jeff had no way to prevent the Accord from downshifting below that RPM, so he couldn't start the full throttle dyno run until that RPM. With the TSX, he had Sportshift and was able to choose and lock a gear.
However, I still maintain that some variation of this engine with a 6AT would probably have gotten equal or better MPG versus the Accord V6.
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It doesn't even need a 6AT. I just completed a round trip of a little over 400 miles (and we were loaded down - 3 adults and a FULL trunk). I cruised in the 80+mph range and I had no trouble averaging 29mpg. By no trouble I mean I just drove it without worrying about feathering the throttle - i actually made fairly frequent use of the throttle. That's a few mpg better than the Accord got with the cruise locked on 75mph. I am now basically 100% convinced that the Accord's VCM offers zero real-world benefit to anybody apart from hypermilers.
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99SI
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Too bad people are still showing up to showrooms buying into this technology. I for one was in the market to replace my wife's 04 EXL with a 08 EXV6, but after inital press about the VCM and the lack of fuel economy we marched down to the acura store and bought one of the last few 2008 TL's for a steal. I just don't for the life of me understand why Honda would not just go with the Non-VCM engine an some more economical gearing on the non 6spd accords.
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atomiclightbulb
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Jeff wrote:
It doesn't even need a 6AT. I just completed a round trip of a little over 400 miles (and we were loaded down - 3 adults and a FULL trunk). I cruised in the 80+mph range and I had no trouble averaging 29mpg. By no trouble I mean I just drove it without worrying about feathering the throttle - i actually made fairly frequent use of the throttle. That's a few mpg better than the Accord got with the cruise locked on 75mph. I am now basically 100% convinced that the Accord's VCM offers zero real-world benefit to anybody apart from hypermilers.
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Drag coefficient for the 8G Accord is 0.31. Source: http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4109
The 1G TSX had a drag coefficient of 0.27 from almost every source I could find on google. I assume that the 2G is probably similar.
The 2G TSX is slightly narrower and shorter than the 8G Accord. It's frontal area is almost certainly less than that of the Accord. I am not surprised that with a more aerodynamic front profile and lower cd, the TSX can meet or exceed the real world MPG of the larger Accord.
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ipribadi
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How bout compared to the standard TL 3.5l ?
Can we assume it'll be near identical?
At a price point that's within TL price range, the TSX V6 will need some convincing arguments over the base TL (with all TL front grill remarks aside please).
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owequitit
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Jeff wrote:
owequitit wrote:
While the TSX certainly made more power, one thing that must be highlighted about the Accord is that below 4200 the graphs are not comparable. Jeff had no way to prevent the Accord from downshifting below that RPM, so he couldn't start the full throttle dyno run until that RPM. With the TSX, he had Sportshift and was able to choose and lock a gear.
However, I still maintain that some variation of this engine with a 6AT would probably have gotten equal or better MPG versus the Accord V6.
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It doesn't even need a 6AT. I just completed a round trip of a little over 400 miles (and we were loaded down - 3 adults and a FULL trunk). I cruised in the 80+mph range and I had no trouble averaging 29mpg. By no trouble I mean I just drove it without worrying about feathering the throttle - i actually made fairly frequent use of the throttle. That's a few mpg better than the Accord got with the cruise locked on 75mph. I am now basically 100% convinced that the Accord's VCM offers zero real-world benefit to anybody apart from hypermilers.
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That is interesting to know. One thing I have noticed with VCM is that due to the weight/drag of the car, it obviously can't stay in VCM mode during a lot of high load conditions, especially when loaded, at higher altitudes or during elevation changes. That coupled with the lower gearing to allow it to run with cylinders off as much seems to have an adverse impact on MPG. We are still getting our 09 Accord mileage to stabilize, but really I can already tell it isn't doing quite what our 2006 was capable of, and it really isn't much more powerful given the displacement increase.
I am personally unhappy with Honda for not just using a version of the engine in the coupe, even if it was coupled with a 5AT.
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JeffX
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ipribadi wrote:
How bout compared to the standard TL 3.5l ?
Can we assume it'll be near identical?
At a price point that's within TL price range, the TSX V6 will need some convincing arguments over the base TL (with all TL front grill remarks aside please).
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as far as i know they are essentially identical engines. the difference on the dyno would come down to the difference between the 17" and 18" wheels (base TL vs TSX), and we're probably talking about 2-3 hp tops.
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owequitit
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Jeff,
What are you getting for city MPG on this car so far?
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DCR
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I test drove a V6 AT Accord coupe before I got my 6MT. I just wanted to see how the car felt, interior and size wise, and I knew the AT would be slower going in.
Slower?
This car was terrible. I swear it felt like it was 6000 pounds with 160hp. I was pleasantly surprised by the 6MT, which I bought without driving. My test drive was the same as the drive home from the dealership.
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
I test drove a V6 AT Accord coupe before I got my 6MT. I just wanted to see how the car felt, interior and size wise, and I knew the AT would be slower going in.
Slower?
This car was terrible. I swear it felt like it was 6000 pounds with 160hp. I was pleasantly surprised by the 6MT, which I bought without driving. My test drive was the same as the drive home from the dealership.
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That is a pretty gross exaggeration. It is certainly less powerful than the 6MT, but it certainly isn't any kind of pig.
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JeffX
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80honda wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DCR wrote:
I test drove a V6 AT Accord coupe before I got my 6MT. I just wanted to see how the car felt, interior and size wise, and I knew the AT would be slower going in.
Slower?
This car was terrible. I swear it felt like it was 6000 pounds with 160hp. I was pleasantly surprised by the 6MT, which I bought without driving. My test drive was the same as the drive home from the dealership.
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That is a pretty gross exaggeration. It is certainly less powerful than the 6MT, but it certainly isn't any kind of pig.
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Yeah, you just have to sit back and laugh at most of the post on TOV.
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let's see.
0-60 TSX v6 AT: 6.1 seconds.
0-60 Accord V6 6MT: 5.9 seconds.
0-60 Accord V6 5AT: 7.2 seconds.
these are our test figures and believe me, a difference of more than 1 second is very noticeable when you drive the car. The Accord V6 sedan feels like a dog compared to the Coupe or the TSX V6. Seriously, the driving experience is not even close.
Last edited by JeffX on 10-06-2009 10:16
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owequitit
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Jeff wrote:
80honda wrote:
owequitit wrote:
DCR wrote:
I test drove a V6 AT Accord coupe before I got my 6MT. I just wanted to see how the car felt, interior and size wise, and I knew the AT would be slower going in.
Slower?
This car was terrible. I swear it felt like it was 6000 pounds with 160hp. I was pleasantly surprised by the 6MT, which I bought without driving. My test drive was the same as the drive home from the dealership.
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That is a pretty gross exaggeration. It is certainly less powerful than the 6MT, but it certainly isn't any kind of pig.
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Yeah, you just have to sit back and laugh at most of the post on TOV.
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let's see.
0-60 TSX v6 AT: 6.1 seconds.
0-60 Accord V6 6MT: 5.9 seconds.
0-60 Accord V6 5AT: 7.2 seconds.
these are our test figures and believe me, a difference of more than 1 second is very noticeable when you drive the car. The Accord V6 sedan feels like a dog compared to the Coupe or the TSX V6. Seriously, the driving experience is not even close.
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Yes, that is true. However, it is a far cry from a 160HP 6,000lb vehicle which would do 0-60 in the 20 second range. I understand his point, but it is a little bit of an exaggeration. If the Accord sedan V6 is a turd, then Honda may as well pack up and go home because nearly everything it makes is slower. For the mission it serves, it is plenty powerful, we have just been spoiled by HP in recent years.
However, I DO agree that the Accord sedan would be better with a 6MT engine and auto tranny.
Preliminarily, our ~09 is averaging 23 mixed, and it is OK on the highway, which means it is disgusting in the city.
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atomiclightbulb
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80honda wrote:
And as we all know, people buying automatic equipped Accords are all running out and drag racing them, making 7.2 seconds seem like and eternity.
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80honda has a point. The vast majority of people I see driving 8G Accords are either older people or people with children. These people are generally not driving fast or coming even close to flooring it.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
80honda wrote:
And as we all know, people buying automatic equipped Accords are all running out and drag racing them, making 7.2 seconds seem like and eternity.
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80honda has a point. The vast majority of people I see driving 8G Accords are either older people or people with children. These people are generally not driving fast or coming even close to flooring it.
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There are 2 sides to the coin though.
On the one hand, it has enough power in most cases to be more than adequate for the job. It is plenty fast to get you arrested, it is plenty fast to outspeed the flow of traffic, and it can pass and merge adequately (more than adequately actually).
However, the additional power is nice when passing, as it always adds a bigger safety margin, the better powerband is a plus in ALL driving conditions, and since you apprently don't lose MPG, and might actually gain it, why not? I know for a fact the J35 without VCM feels a lot less flat footed than the VCM equipped ones, and it works better around town, is more responsive, more linear etc etc. It is all the advantages you want, without the biggest disadvantage you don't which is MPG.
I am sorry, but 17-18MPG in a V6 Accord is not only eye opening, it is unacceptable.
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ipribadi
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I think the 5AT also further exagerates the non responsiveness of the sedan V6 w/VCM.
In my 7G accord, the 5AT is slow to down kick when punched and the 2nd to 3rd gear ratio is too far apart causing a huge power gap when punched anywhere around 60-70mph
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owequitit
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ipribadi wrote:
I think the 5AT also further exagerates the non responsiveness of the sedan V6 w/VCM.
In my 7G accord, the 5AT is slow to down kick when punched and the 2nd to 3rd gear ratio is too far apart causing a huge power gap when punched anywhere around 60-70mph
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The 09 seems to have slightly better spacing though, and overall the gearing is lower, which is one reason I think the MPG takes a hit. In order to get the car to be able to run in 3 or 4 cylinder mode as often as possible, they lowered the gearing, which adversely affects MPG when the engine has to shift back to 6 cylinder mode.
Also, there are different AT gearings in the 7G. Our 04 has a tall 1st gear with the gap between 1st and 2nd, while the 06 lowered the 1st gear and 2nd gear, but has the gap you mention between 2nd and 3rd. Also, in the grand scheme of things, the auto tranny in the 7th gen is actually pretty responsive compared to the competition and the 8th gen seems a little more eager to kick down still.
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Carzzz
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owequitit wrote:
Also, there are different AT gearings in the 7G. Our 04 has a tall 1st gear with the gap between 1st and 2nd, while the 06 lowered the 1st gear and 2nd gear, but has the gap you mention between 2nd and 3rd. Also, in the grand scheme of things, the auto tranny in the 7th gen is actually pretty responsive compared to the competition and the 8th gen seems a little more eager to kick down still.
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where you get your info about honda changed the gear ratio? The gear ratio is identical for 5AT V6 for gen7... (check honda accord specification)
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80honda
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ipribadi wrote:
I think the 5AT also further exagerates the non responsiveness of the sedan V6 w/VCM.
In my 7G accord, the 5AT is slow to down kick when punched and the 2nd to 3rd gear ratio is too far apart causing a huge power gap when punched anywhere around 60-70mph
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Will the Accord drop down to 2nd gear and run 60-70 mph?
Plus, doesn't the shift level on the console allow you to select the gear you want?
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ipribadi
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In the 7G AV6 5AT, 2nd gear tops around 67mph, so romping on the throttle a bit above 60mph, typically kicks the tranny down to 3rd (from cruising in 5th).
3rd gear at say 64mph is a low 3,900rpm which is way out of VTEC (4,500 rpm) range.
3rd gear is too tall and tops out at 105mph .. that's the huge gap, from 64-105mph all in 3rd gear.
4th and 5th are fine, just 3rd gear should have been 10% lower.
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