The Temple of VTEC - Honda and Acura Enthusiasts Online Forums > Mag-X brings some 2012 Civic and 2011 CR-Z info to light >

dadliboi wrote:
CR-V9 wrote:

As for an engine, I believe that a physically bigger engine will not fit in CR-Z platform, Fit Platform.

Actually, I wasn't aware that the K20 would be too big for the CR-Z platform. I always thought it would fit. Aren't K20's regularly swapped into Fits? Does it require too much radical modification or something?

I was wrong.

Somehow I had always assumed Insight was based on Fit platform. It is not. It is on it's own platform.
Since many parts from Fit parts bin are used there are many similarilities to Fit one but it is not the same.
I would think CR-Z and Insight share the same platform.

WongKN

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-15-2009 22:59

STJ wrote:
I realy hope they don't name it the CRX because it doen't deserve that name. Its gonna be slower than a 1990 CRX V-tec why even bother getting a new car when its worse than a 20 year old one.

Atleast toyota's gets it with the toyobaru.

No, it is not. I have stated often in the past how the Honda R&D engineers assured me it (the CR-Z) will have handling -better- than the EF8 CRX (160ps B16A with 5MT and optional viscous coupling LSD). In fact, the general impression is that it will handle somewhere in the league of the original DC2 Integra Type-R (JDM version). Power-wise, Honda has never said it will be a super-duper 200+ps (sorry it is a fact that Honda feels 200ps to be 'a lot of power') super car. It IS designed to be a spiritual successor to the CR-X. And it will adopt the original CR-X's approach, which is that it handles well, is a lot of fun to drive but is never a super-car. The original EF8 CR-X was designed to compete at the level of the S13s and FCs (RX-7s).

WongKN

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-15-2009 23:38

dadliboi wrote:
...Actually, I wasn't aware that the K20 would be too big for the CR-Z platform. I always thought it would fit. Aren't K20's regularly swapped into Fits? Does it require too much radical modification or something?

Not sure about the CR-Z of course but K20s into Fits are some sort of a myth. I remember years ago when Honda Malaysia contracted the development of their MME Civic to M-TEC (Mugen) I was excited to learn that one of the engineers that came down to Malaysia was involved in the Mugen Fit-Dynamite. When I started talking about the Fit Dynamite, I was surprised to see that they tried to avoid it. Eventually I found out that as far as Mugen was concerned, it (the Fit Dynamite) was nothing more than just an interesting exercise. It was considered quite a failure, only good for running in a straight-line and was a beast in the corners. Spoon tried to create a kit for this swap but decided to give up after a while. The kit had involved deleting the radiator and replacing it with some tiny item stuffed into one corner. The mod would need an extra engine mount welded deep into the front overhang of the car, almost into the front bumper space. The engine would have to be tilted and almost entirely in front of the front wheels. The weight distribution was said to be around 70+:20+.

Due to the 'romance' of this idea (K20 into 1G Fit) at its heydays, a local owner tried to do his own project (son of a rich man, no need to say more). Local shops shoe-horned a DC5 K20AR into his car but it handles so badly, he convinced daddy to fly Tanabe R&D engineers from Japan down to Malaysia to try to design a customized suspension for his car, to avoid it flying off the roads into a corner. The engineers came but actually gave up because they can't get it to work well. Eventually the car was stripped and sold as a drag-car for the local drag-crowd.

dadliboi

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-16-2009 00:17

WongKN wrote:
dadliboi wrote:
...Actually, I wasn't aware that the K20 would be too big for the CR-Z platform. I always thought it would fit. Aren't K20's regularly swapped into Fits? Does it require too much radical modification or something?

Not sure about the CR-Z of course but K20s into Fits are some sort of a myth. I remember years ago when Honda Malaysia contracted the development of their MME Civic to M-TEC (Mugen) I was excited to learn that one of the engineers that came down to Malaysia was involved in the Mugen Fit-Dynamite. When I started talking about the Fit Dynamite, I was surprised to see that they tried to avoid it. Eventually I found out that as far as Mugen was concerned, it (the Fit Dynamite) was nothing more than just an interesting exercise. It was considered quite a failure, only good for running in a straight-line and was a beast in the corners. Spoon tried to create a kit for this swap but decided to give up after a while. The kit had involved deleting the radiator and replacing it with some tiny item stuffed into one corner. The mod would need an extra engine mount welded deep into the front overhang of the car, almost into the front bumper space. The engine would have to be tilted and almost entirely in front of the front wheels. The weight distribution was said to be around 70+:20+.

Due to the 'romance' of this idea (K20 into 1G Fit) at its heydays, a local owner tried to do his own project (son of a rich man, no need to say more). Local shops shoe-horned a DC5 K20AR into his car but it handles so badly, he convinced daddy to fly Tanabe R&D engineers from Japan down to Malaysia to try to design a customized suspension for his car, to avoid it flying off the roads into a corner. The engineers came but actually gave up because they can't get it to work well. Eventually the car was stripped and sold as a drag-car for the local drag-crowd.

lol...Interesting story there. Thanks Wong. Very Informative.

Did a little digging myself. K20's into Fits are indeed hairy business.
http://www.modified.com/tech/0709_sccp_k20_powered_2007_honda_fit/index.html
http://www.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/130_0704_honda_fit_b_spec_sema_fiddle/photo_03.html

danielgr

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-20-2009 10:36

dadliboi wrote:
Ah yes...The classic retort to any criticism of Honda: "Go buy a car from another manufacturer."...because Honda is God and can do no wrong.*rolls eyes*

My invitation to explain to me why Honda cannot put the K20 engine in the CR-Z still stands, by the way.

Well, before entering any arguing:
- Nobody knows if there is going to be a non-hybrid CR-Z.
- Who knows what platform will the CR-Z be based on (new one, Fit, Civic, mixed Fit-Civic?)

That said, here are a few reasons why Honda may not put it inside:
1) Who would buy it? Japanese or Europeans? We already have (Japanese will do at the end of this year) the Euro Civic 3 door. Americans have never really loved hot-hatches and if anything, it would get cross-sold with the Si Coupe.
2) It has been proved again and again that nowadays "dedicated hybrid" sells better than "hybrid".
3) Asuming it's developped under the Fit platform, K20 or not, not many US enthusiast would concede on the rear torsion beam setup.

So, I really can't see many reasons why Honda should put a K20 on it. If it's all about having a K20-powered hot hatch in the US, simply start shipping Euro 3-doors with an Si badge. Oh wait, they did that once and learned the lesson...

roninsi02

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-20-2009 12:27

danielgr wrote:
dadliboi wrote:
Ah yes...The classic retort to any criticism of Honda: "Go buy a car from another manufacturer."...because Honda is God and can do no wrong.*rolls eyes*

My invitation to explain to me why Honda cannot put the K20 engine in the CR-Z still stands, by the way.
Well, before entering any arguing:
- Nobody knows if there is going to be a non-hybrid CR-Z.
- Who knows what platform will the CR-Z be based on (new one, Fit, Civic, mixed Fit-Civic?)

That said, here are a few reasons why Honda may not put it inside:
1) Who would buy it? Japanese or Europeans? We already have (Japanese will do at the end of this year) the Euro Civic 3 door. Americans have never really loved hot-hatches and if anything, it would get cross-sold with the Si Coupe.
2) It has been proved again and again that nowadays "dedicated hybrid" sells better than "hybrid".
3) Asuming it's developped under the Fit platform, K20 or not, not many US enthusiast would concede on the rear torsion beam setup.

So, I really can't see many reasons why Honda should put a K20 on it. If it's all about having a K20-powered hot hatch in the US, simply start shipping Euro 3-doors with an Si badge. Oh wait, they did that once and learned the lesson...

If you mean the EP3 then it was completly Hondas fault the car did not sell. The car didnt perform any better than the previous gen and had a very lack luster engine that didnt like to rev either. The Hnadling wasnt particularly anything special and it typically came in behind most hot hatches in its segment. Had they brought over a decontented CTR (minus aero package recaros wheels etc) but slightly detune the engine and transmission then i believe the story would be different.

Imagine if VW sold the anemic 2.5 and called it a GTI, i really doubt they would sell the numbers they do. Thats pretty much what Honda tried to do.

wyy183

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

05-26-2009 18:02

Jeff wrote:
80honda wrote:
Varmint wrote:
80honda wrote:
It appears you guys are expecting some two seater sports car.

Until Honda releases one, ALL cars are expected to be 2-seater sports cars. I think it's somewhere in the user agreement on this site.

Where are the buyers for two seaters with manual transmissions. Honda only sold 103 two seaters in April. I can't imagine Honda would spend tons of money designing, building and marketing yet another.

how illuminating. Honda "only" sold 103 2-seaters in one of the worst automotive market environments in decades. This being a $35000 4-cylinder 2-seater that is by and large the same vehicle that went on sale in September of 1999. A 2-seater whose competitors have had several generational updates to its zero. Thus, the logical conclusion is that people don't buy 2-seaters. That's brilliant. Not to mention, missing the entire point.

Since it was announced, Honda has always pitched the CR-Z as a next-generation sportscar. While it will undoubtedly be very fuel efficient, it's certainly not intended to set fuel efficiency records. Though given the Insight's poor showing on the EPA sticker, I wonder how the CR-Z will perform. It's going to be an even tougher sell than the Insight if it suffers a similar outcome from the EPA tests (though it will likely deliver superb real world figures).

Honda has a chance to kill two birds with one stone with the CR-Z. They can build their eco-wonder "sportscar", and then they can build an ACTUAL sportscar with a powerful (yet still efficient) standard non-hybrid powertrain.

Jeff, I like what you are saying here, and recall back... many years ago when Honda introduced this car called the CRX.

Seems like I recall there being three distinct "flavors" of the car:
- HF, which got ~50 mpg;
- DX, which got ~40mpg (I bought one new in '89, and its still running strong at 310,000+ miles;)
- Si, which got ~30 mpg (had one of those, too!)
Each of these had its own distinct "personality" and target audience. Kinda makes me wonder what the possibilities are for the CR-Z!

Maybe we'll be treated to the same offerings as in the past?!?

Koukir32

Re: no MT on CR-Z? Say it ain't so... [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal)

06-12-2009 19:39

You are not entirely correct Jero, yes it shows 240hp in 2000-03 trim. And yes it shows 237hp in 04up trim. But don't forget that SAE had changed the hp messuring standard in 05. So hence u see a decrease in hp figures for most cars in 05 model year. which also, means that the 2.2L actually makes close to 260hp with the old messuring standard back in 2000.