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chavv
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there is no Honda.
I saw someone already posted that Honda is becoming Toyota-light and face it - that's true. :(
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330R
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Save that for when Honda pulls out of MotoGP, ALMS, IRL (although they're not competing against anyone else for a few more years), Super GT, SCCA World Challenge, BTCC, FIA Group N,
etc.
Was Honda a "Toyota-light" in the years they weren't racing in F1? You know, when the first Civic, Accord, and Prelude debuted? They pulled out of racing in the late 60s to focus on road cars. Yes, certainly some of my favorite Hondas were produced during times Honda was supplying engines in F1.
Maybe Toyota is pleased to bleed money into F1 as the series drives head on into a spec racing future, achieving the odd 3rd place finish. It does nothing for their image.
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80honda
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chavv wrote:
there is no Honda.
I saw someone already posted that Honda is becoming Toyota-light and face it - that's true. :(
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Toyota races, WTF are you babbling about?
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chavv
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Was Honda a "Toyota-light" in the years they weren't racing in F1? You know, when the first Civic, Accord, and Prelude debuted? They pulled out of racing in the late 60s to focus on road cars. Yes, certainly some of my favorite Hondas were produced during times Honda was supplying engines in F1.
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201hp Civic? Or accord which is underpowered and heavy?
Honda are no longer aiming for technological superiority.
Their hybrids are cheap but thats it, the Prius scheme is better for mileage and mindshare (running with engine off - everybody knows that Prius can do that, but Honda doesn't)
So, whats your choice - a car thats 1k cheaper or car thats technologically superior?
1k cheaper with old-style hydro-automatic or more expensive 6speed DSG with dry clutch?
2k cheaper with 200hp 2.4l inline4 or 200hp 1.4l i4 TFSI which even needs less gasoline?
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roninsi02
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It use to be Honda did more with less. Ya know? Less weight equal to or better power and fuel economy. Small engines that delivered equal power to engines 2x their size.
Now they offer less for less. You get old/updated transmissions and engines. Fuel economy and power is average or trailing rivals. But to supplement the lack of innovation we get a cool stereo and "advance" styling.
Anyone remember the old Prelude Si Vtec ads? "turbo smurbo". The S2000 set a awesome benchmark almost 10 years ago. Since then Honda has actually gone backwards. I use to dream that by now Honda would be at 150 hp per liter like a sport bike! That would have been fun a 2.0 liter s2000 that revs to 10k developing 300 hp using some super vtec.
Anyways.
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owequitit
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chavv wrote:
Was Honda a "Toyota-light" in the years they weren't racing in F1? You know, when the first Civic, Accord, and Prelude debuted? They pulled out of racing in the late 60s to focus on road cars. Yes, certainly some of my favorite Hondas were produced during times Honda was supplying engines in F1.
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201hp Civic? Or accord which is underpowered and heavy?
Honda are no longer aiming for technological superiority.
Their hybrids are cheap but thats it, the Prius scheme is better for mileage and mindshare (running with engine off - everybody knows that Prius can do that, but Honda doesn't)
So, whats your choice - a car thats 1k cheaper or car thats technologically superior?
1k cheaper with old-style hydro-automatic or more expensive 6speed DSG with dry clutch?
2k cheaper with 200hp 2.4l inline4 or 200hp 1.4l i4 TFSI which even needs less gasoline?
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I have asked this question about 10x now, and still none of the complainers have been able to answer it, so I will ask it again.
What sporty cars are you referring to?
Is it the 91 HP CRX Si, the 106 HP version, or is it the 160HP Si, the 140HP Prelude, or the 98 HP Accord?
I am curious. Because the Civic Si will still blow the doors off any previous version. The S2K is the fastest car under the Honda nameplate, in the US, and if you think the Accord is "underpowered" you have never driven one. It too will blow the doors off of any previous Accord, ESPECIALLY the older ones. The coupe runs 14.0 flat stock. Let me see that from your other not underpowered "sporty" Hondas. It also pulls around .85G on the skidpad, whereas the awesome Accords from before would manage what, an astonishing .68-.70 G?
As for the weight, you can thank retarded drivers that want airbags to save them from an earthquake and the governments who think the easiest way to protect pedestrians is to make the car idiot proof as opposed to teaching people to LOOK before they cross the road.
For their size, they are still generally the lightest or among them in every category.
What previous cars are you referring to?
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chavv
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they were sporty compared to competition.
Don't know for USA, but in Europe Honda are underpowered.
Here best-powered Accord is 4cyl 2.4 :P
Opel, VW, Fiat, Nissan, Mazda, Toyota ... all have cars in same class which are more powerful and with better tech (like DSG or turbo-gasoline)
And also they have practical small-sized diesels. Just now Honda are going to go ahead an create small-sized diesel...
Maybe I'm overeacting, but I do believe they want to become some sort of Toyota or Volvo.
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80honda
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chavv wrote:
they were sporty compared to competition.
Don't know for USA, but in Europe Honda are underpowered.
Here best-powered Accord is 4cyl 2.4 :P
Opel, VW, Fiat, Nissan, Mazda, Toyota ... all have cars in same class which are more powerful and with better tech (like DSG or turbo-gasoline)
And also they have practical small-sized diesels. Just now Honda are going to go ahead an create small-sized diesel...
Maybe I'm overeacting, but I do believe they want to become some sort of Toyota or Volvo.
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I suggest you go do some research about Honda Diesels before you come to this forum and post your drivel.
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roninsi02
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You really do grasp at straws when you point out that the CURRENT 2008 CIVIC SI can outperform the same car from 1991. Every single manufactuer has improved their respective models. I beleive our complaint is instead of improving to meet the competiton Honda barely updates the cars or kills them outright citing poor sells. Of course they are selling poorly, they cant/dont want to compete in sports department.
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Dren
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roninsi02 wrote:
You really do grasp at straws when you point out that the CURRENT 2008 CIVIC SI can outperform the same car from 1991. Every single manufactuer has improved their respective models. I beleive our complaint is instead of improving to meet the competiton Honda barely updates the cars or kills them outright citing poor sells. Of course they are selling poorly, they cant/dont want to compete in sports department.
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Hondas never blew away the competition in the past. There were always more powerful cars, even back in the 108hp CRX Si days. Those cars were fun, as are many of the Hondas now. The NSX did well when it first came out and set a benchmark.
Honda still makes small displacement, efficient, sporty cars today when compared to the competition. The Fit is like the old Civics, and the Civic now is like the old Accord. The S2000 is still a lot of fun. The Prelude was fun, but pricey. I'm not surprised Honda dropped it.
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chavv
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80honda wrote:
I suggest you go do some research about Honda Diesels before you come to this forum and post your drivel.
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Only a 2.2 CDTI. Thats 1 (one) engine. Europe only.
Diesel for Jazz? non existant.
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owequitit
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roninsi02 wrote:
You really do grasp at straws when you point out that the CURRENT 2008 CIVIC SI can outperform the same car from 1991. Every single manufactuer has improved their respective models. I beleive our complaint is instead of improving to meet the competiton Honda barely updates the cars or kills them outright citing poor sells. Of course they are selling poorly, they cant/dont want to compete in sports department.
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No, I really don't grasp at straws.
Honda wasn't the fastest back then either. My comment is in response to the constant cry for more power, when any true Honda enthusiasts that puts things into perspective and actually remembers "the good ole days" knows that Honda was NEVER the pantheon of power and acceleration. When the CRX Si was popular, Mitsubishi had the little hatchback turbo. GM had the V6 Cavalier. etc.
They offered supreme balance, and a decent dose of fun with a lot of reliability, refinement, and value.
The Si is very much in the same position. It has fallen behind slightly in the last year, but then again, it is almost due for replacement. Everyone here just assumes that Honda will just introduce a new car with the same HP, even though they have NEVER failed to provide a competitive car (especially at new product introduction time) in this segment.
Frankly, they don't need boost to do it. The competition is barely running low 14's (with the exception of the heavier and more expensive AWD models) which with the K series could be achieved with a limit on the weight increase, some revised tuning on the engine, and perhaps a little more displacement. I know this, because bolt on Civics are doing quite well with owner developed light mod programs.
This would allow them to keep balance in a FWD car, and not have to compromise their values. Something like a revised 2.2L would go a long way.
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roninsi02
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The competition might be "only" running low 14s" but The Si's can barely scratch 15.0 and the Honda traps 5-9 mph lower. Sure straightline isnt all that either but yet again the competition takes the Si at the track. When the ITR came out there might have been faster cars but none that handled better or offered the character of the Type-R.
What makes us think that the next Civic wont be much better than the current platform? Because the current platform was based on the RSX and Hondas recent track record of making micro improvements and getting leap frogged. They are not the only manufacter on the block that sells reliable fun to drive cars. Hence for the first time in 10 years i no longer drive a Honda. I DO vote with my wallet.
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