|
|
|
|
 |
CarPhreakD
 |
|
I'm really crossing my fingers on this new Accord. This (along with the Civic), are the real blockbusters for Honda, and I think depending on the performance of the new Accord, whether Honda will have what it takes to beat the competition in the future. The styling part has already been lain down (especially compared to the Camry...), now I'm hoping the driving experience and the specs sheet will be just as good... if not better!
I'm disappointed in the Civic though. I'm not so sure myself anymore that it is supply that's limiting sales, because I read a report up here in the North in the Toronto Star that the Mazda3 might supplant the Civic as the best selling compact in Canada, because M3 sales are up in the double digits while the Civics are falling at a similar rate. The only reason that the M3 hasn't already outsold the Civic yet is because, as Mazda claims (I'm not sure how valid those claims are) that the M3 is also limited by supply.
I entirely agree on the ex model. While the R18 is very powerful for a engine of it's size, the competition is still (albeit barely) ahead by offering engines with 10-20 more HP. An EX model would definitely be a good way to get rid of this deficit, and may become a requirement once the Mazda3 and Corolla are redesigned. Options that would be cool could be a 6 speed manual or firmer suspension, although I'm just daydreaming.
|
Accordfan 54701
|
|
|
I think that you will have to wait till the next full model change for the 150-160 hp engine to make its way into the civic. I would rather see a diesel option on the civic to maximize fuel economy.
|
JeffX
|
|
Accordfan 54701 wrote:
I think that you will have to wait till the next full model change for the 150-160 hp engine to make its way into the civic. I would rather see a diesel option on the civic to maximize fuel economy.
|
diesel isn't the holy grail, particularly in small cars in the US. How much better do you expect to get than the 30 in the city and 40 on the hwy that the R18 Civics get (particularly since the only 4-cyl diesel is currently a 2.2L)? And I don't know about where you live, but here diesel costs more than premium unleaded, so much (if not all) of the fuel economy benefit would be offset by that.
Diesels are fine for trucks but I don't care for them in cars. And yes, I have driven the very latest, best of the breed direct injection turbocharged diesels that are offered in Europe (including Honda's)
|
iceman6
|
|
You're kidding, right? Diesels provide higher gas mileage and higher torque at lower rpm's. What's not to like? I love my TSX, but the 2008 Jetta will run rings around it, and give me 40 mpg to boot.
http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12424/first-drive-2008-volkswagen-jetta-tdi.html
|
RyanDL
|
|
Each time I see a VW diesel (even the newer ones), it sounds like it's got a broken rod. It's the noisiest, most clickety-clack diesel I've heard on a new production vehicle. I could never bring myself to drive one. Top it off with the soot that coats the bumper around the tailpipe, high cost of diesel (in Dallas it is at least as expensive as premium), weight, and increased maintenance and I'll stick with petrol.
Ryan
Last edited by RyanDL on 04-12-2007 15:34
|
EggLaNd'S BeSt
|
|
|
The R20 would be a immediate drop-in to boost the Civic EX HP to the 150-160 range.Even though I love the K20a3 in my lowly EP3 and would rather see that engine dropped in.The R20 would most likely make more fiscal sense for Honda though.
|
JeffX
|
|
EggLaNd'S BeSt wrote:
The R20 would be a immediate drop-in to boost the Civic EX HP to the 150-160 range.Even though I love the K20a3 in my lowly EP3 and would rather see that engine dropped in.The R20 would most likely make more fiscal sense for Honda though.
|
they've already got the hardware for the k20z3 to drop right in so a k20a3 should be cake.
|
JeffX
|
|
iceman6 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Diesels provide higher gas mileage and higher torque at lower rpm's. What's not to like? I love my TSX, but the 2008 Jetta will run rings around it, and give me 40 mpg to boot.
http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12424/first-drive-2008-volkswagen-jetta-tdi.html
|
I'm not kidding in the least. I base my opinions on real world experience and not on hype.
Diesels are currently way overhyped. You're delusional if you think the Jetta TDI will "run rings" around a TSX. I know exactly what diesels do and do not provide. I couldn't care less about having 236 lb-ft of torque if it means I'm saddled with a measly 140hp. The TSX doesn't suffer from a lack of torque - it's so focused on torque it's a little boring to drive, but not nearly as boring as these highly boosted diesels that suffer from immense turbo lag and then hit hard for maybe 1500rpms and then wheeze through the rest of the rev range, maybe topping out at a dizzying 4500rpm redline. All this while blackening the rear of your vehicle and clattering like tin lizzies. No thanks. People love them in Europe because they cost half as much to operate as petrol cars. We don't have that motivation here.
I will say that diesels are improving dramatically. Currently the best of the breed seems to be BMW's engines (these are the only ones I've driven that begin to approximate the experience of a decent petrol motor). But their motors are very expensive and what's fitted in more mundane cars like VWs, Fords, and even Hondas are nowhere near the levels of BMW's diesels. At least for now. Don't buy into the hype.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
Actually yeah, I forgot about the base Acura CSX... which already has a K20 dropped in for 155 hp. I guess then that Honda won't offer an EX trim in Canada that produces 155 HP, since that would encroach on CSX turf? hmm...
And Diesel's aren't entirely overrated. I know that fuel is more expensive in the US than regular unleaded, but where I live in Toronto it's cheaper for Diesel. And, with the added fuel economy that diesel engines enjoy, that price difference should be wiped out in the US.
Performance wise, I recall watching a Top Gear episode where a diesel Hyundai beat a Mini. And did we already forget about Audi's Diesel R10 LM winners? It's true that Diesel engines are slow revving, but for something like a Civic, for which the baser models aren't meant to be THAT sporty, it's a viable option. Especially with Honda's new catalytic converter to avoid the stupid black tailpipes. And as you said Jeff, with new advances in Diesel engines continuing, the gap between diesel and gas engines have closed somewhat. I would still rather have a HCCI engine over a Diesel... if only Honda could create one that works all the time.
|
Nick GravesX
|
|
Jeff wrote:
iceman6 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Diesels provide higher gas mileage and higher torque at lower rpm's. What's not to like? I love my TSX, but the 2008 Jetta will run rings around it, and give me 40 mpg to boot.
http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12424/first-drive-2008-volkswagen-jetta-tdi.html
|
I'm not kidding in the least. I base my opinions on real world experience and not on hype.
Diesels are currently way overhyped. You're delusional if you think the Jetta TDI will "run rings" around a TSX. I know exactly what diesels do and do not provide. I couldn't care less about having 236 lb-ft of torque if it means I'm saddled with a measly 140hp. The TSX doesn't suffer from a lack of torque - it's so focused on torque it's a little boring to drive, but not nearly as boring as these highly boosted diesels that suffer from immense turbo lag and then hit hard for maybe 1500rpms and then wheeze through the rest of the rev range, maybe topping out at a dizzying 4500rpm redline. All this while blackening the rear of your vehicle and clattering like tin lizzies. No thanks. People love them in Europe because they cost half as much to operate as petrol cars. We don't have that motivation here.
I will say that diesels are improving dramatically. Currently the best of the breed seems to be BMW's engines (these are the only ones I've driven that begin to approximate the experience of a decent petrol motor). But their motors are very expensive and what's fitted in more mundane cars like VWs, Fords, and even Hondas are nowhere near the levels of BMW's diesels. At least for now. Don't buy into the hype.
|
I found the R18 engined FK2 to be much nicer to drive than the 2.2 FK3.
Yes, the 3 does nearly 50mpg easily 130 but it still suffers from a narrow powerband and nose heaviness and poor throttle response. And that's despite the bonkers DBW throttle on the R18.
Diesel is no cheaper here in UK - there's this perception that it's trendy to own a diesel (Huuuge torque & shave the whales), & you get sales reps in their pathetic cancer wagons trying to race you in your S2000 because they believe the hype.
Yes, at present they're far more sensible than the petrol-electrics you are forced to endure, but they're no panacea.
Emperor's New Clothes, more like.
|
CarPhreakD
|
|
|
Shave the whales eh? lol
|
|
|
| |
|
| Thread Page - [1] |
| |
|
![[home]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[dealer network]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/dealernet.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](http://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
