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RyanDL
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Caffeinated21 wrote:
Unless you live on a racetrack, actual performance numbers really aren't nearly as important as driving dynamics are. The Rl has terrible balance and vague steering;more grip won't change that.
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After hustling the RL through the mountain roads yesterday during our current comparo test, I can say that the RL's dynamics are actually pretty good. Sure, it's not the ultimate sports sedan, but to call the balance terrible and steering vague is just wrong. The tires are certainly a weak spot on the car, but the chassis is very capable and the SH-AWD system is really a blast on the right roads. In tight corners, the car does show it's weight, but only when you're really hustling, and even then you can almost correct for it if you are familiar with how to "use" the SH-AWD system properly.
We'll have more on this when we publish our full reviews.
Ryan
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tonycd
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All I, and probably many others, were looking for was TL with awd and real wood/leather.
Great comment. In fact, I'd go even farther. I adore the TL, and I have no problem with FWD. My only real hangup about it is that embarrassing fake wood, especially on the doors.
I have a real problem with paying $35,000 (yes, I'm not embarrassed to say it -- to me, that's big money) for a car with fake wood. Especially when the Lexus ES, albeit inferior in many other ways, delivers an acre of the kind of wood that grows on trees. This is such a big deal to me, I even took a second look at the "see my lights burn out in 3 months" Passat. The piano-quality stuff in the RL is a real turn-on to me... just not an extra $10,000 worth.
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papapoly
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tonycd wrote:
I have a real problem with paying $35,000 (yes, I'm not embarrassed to say it -- to me, that's big money) for a car with fake wood.
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Why are you embarrassed? $35,000 USD is alot of money. I would rather sink $35 grand as a down payment on a house or something. That's the troubling part of increasing car prices. Back in the day a 36 month car loan was considered normal. Now the lenders are extending car loans beyond 5 years. Americans are way too extended credit wise.
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TonyEX
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That's right.. cheapskates for real.. In the case of MB the issue is the incredible cheapening of the brand. Like who needs the C class anyhow? Now, why should someone going for one of the 6 liter S cars have to sit on the same bench as someone haggling over the lease payments on a C240?
I suppose they can always leave the Fletcher Jones MB dealership and go up Bristol Blvd to the Brabus showroom accross the street from John Wayne. Surely there will be no stragglers in that haven of performance and high prices.
If your customers have to ask for the price, then you're not exclusive enough.
Time for the Opulance Brand to come into being.
tksung wrote:
TonyE wrote:
There aren't that many value shoppers in the $50K and above market.
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Depending on what you mean by "value shoppers". Plenty of BMW dealers are complaining about 5/7 series buyers haggling over few bucks. Money matters to everyone, including BMW/MB buyers.
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tksung
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TonyE wrote:
Now, why should someone going for one of the 6 liter S cars have to sit on the same bench as someone haggling over the lease payments on a C240?
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If you think people who buy S class throw their money around, you are wrong. They didn't get rich by not asking the price. I once had a guy in S class come to buy my car for his secretary. He knew exactly what he was looking for and what he was willing to pay. They usually get the best deal around with the least amount work, incidentally.
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papapoly
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tksung wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Now, why should someone going for one of the 6 liter S cars have to sit on the same bench as someone haggling over the lease payments on a C240?
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If you think people who buy S class throw their money around, you are wrong. They didn't get rich by not asking the price. I once had a guy in S class come to buy my car for his secretary. He knew exactly what he was looking for and what he was willing to pay. They usually get the best deal around with the least amount work, incidentally.
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I agree with TK. The majority of wealthy folks didn't get to where they are by paying sticker. It doesn't matter if its 10K or 100K, always neogotiate (especially these days when invoice prices are published all over the web)
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AccordinglyJay
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Absolutely concur...can think of specific examples of affluent price hagglers.
Furthermore, I think Acura losing it's value focus to aim upscale (Lexus LS territory) would spell sudden death. What works for others doesn't always work for all...it's all about filling empty niches/segments. Many buy Acura because of value equation...and display that prudence proudly while others must show off status symbols.
The RL just needs a bit more sizzle to round that equation out...given the competition. Think TL...
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hondamore
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The car buyers I know fall into one of two categories. The first, like myself, enjoy the "sport" of negotiation and try to get the best deal they can and they broadcast to the world how little they paid for their vehicle. This method allows a person to purchase even an expensive car like the RL without seeming ostentatious. The second group is the exact opposite. They walk in and get little or no discount off MSRP because they feel that it is beneath them to haggle to save a few bucks or they feel that they have enough money that they don't have to haggle. They then broadcast to the world how much they paid for their vehicle as a way of informing the world of their financial position. This method is common to the "nouveau riche" who love to tell the world that they have arrived financially (even if they borrowed the down payment on their leased vehicle). Don't confuse this group with the true automotive enthusiast who just can't wait to buy an exciting new car (like the new RL) and is forced to pay MSRP because absolutely no discounts are available. These people are often group 1 people who allow emotion and love for a particular vehicle supercede their innate love for a bargain.
My two cents on the RL sales figures is this: the RL is a great car with two flaws. The first is the OEM tires which is easy enough to remedy for anyone choosing the 18 inch wheel option. The second and most glaring flaw is the high MSRP. However, how can one blame Honda/Acura for setting the MSRP a little high to maximize profits in the early sales generated by the new model excitement and to try to elevate the Acura brand name. They planned to wait 6 months and then unleash the dealers to make deals on the RL to assure that they move the volume that they have built. Now that discounts are to be had off MSRP, no one can argue that the RL is one hell of a car for the price and as word of the discounts spreads, the sales volume may become sustainable for years to come (with a few electronic goodies thrown in from year to year). Add to this the addition of the A-spec suspension release for those who want a sportier ride and suddenly Honda seems like they knew what they were doing all along.
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TC1
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hondamore wrote:
However, how can one blame Honda/Acura for setting the MSRP a little high to maximize profits in the early sales generated by the new model excitement and to try to elevate the Acura brand name. They planned to wait 6 months and then unleash the dealers to make deals on the RL to assure that they move the volume that they have built. Now that discounts are to be had off MSRP, no one can argue that the RL is one hell of a car for the price and as word of the discounts spreads, the sales volume may become sustainable for years to come (with a few electronic goodies thrown in from year to year). Add to this the addition of the A-spec suspension release for those who want a sportier ride and suddenly Honda seems like they knew what they were doing all along.
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I think you're being a bit generous when you say that Honda "...knew what they were doing all along..." I can't imagine that they planned to slash the price of the RL by 10% when the car has been in the market for only 8 or 9 months. This is something that car companies plan to do after a model has been in the market for a 2-3 years and prior to a major refresh. Simultaneously, Honda has raised the residual value on an RL lease to 60% - which flies in the face of discounting the car. How could they believe the car's value is going to hold up better when they have to discount the car to sell it in the first place? Slightly used RL's (at least out here in California) are selling for under $40k. 04 RL's are selling for under $25k. If Honda was really planning to take advantage of its early buyers (as you suggest, by elevating the MSRP at introduction with planned discounts after a few months) then they probably just lost a bunch of repeat customers for the next generation RL. If anything, they should have introduced the car with a lower MSRP and then inched it up over time. This is the strategy that got Lexus to where it is. Short-term profiteering isn't a way to win in the luxury segment where customer loyalty takes a long time to build (and an instant to damage), especially given the number of quality alternatives on the market.
As always, JMO.
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hondamore
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I agree entirely (and am on record as saying) that the RL should have been priced much lower for the exact reasons you mentioned. The point I was making was that Honda may be trying to have their cake and eat it too by having the MSRP high to act as a flagship, make large profit from early sales, and later discount the price to sustain volume levels. Had they released the RL at $45,000 US, they would still have people looking for a deal and wanting to pay $42,000. They now have people thrilled to pieces to pay $45,000 for an RL which is about where the price of the car should be. I'm just guessing at their strategy here. It is possible that they knew that without developing a V8 for the car, that the $49,000 price was unsustainable but they chose to release it there anyway. If the RL turned into an instant sales hit, they would maintain the no discount off MSRP policy, wereas if sales began to plateau, they planned to allow dealers to discount to what many believe is the correct price for the car. I agree that the Lexus model would have been preferable and if I was running Honda, I would have released the car at $44,000, sold all 20,000 of them at MSRP and had people lined up next year to pay $46,000 for the entire production run of 2006 RL's. Then by slowly adding features (even a V8?) they could raise the MSRP to over $50,000. This would allow the RL to better retain its resale value which would further elevate the prestige of the Acura brand.
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revvin
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Alright boys, I'm going to give you the key to the RL's much needed sales booster, no it's not repositioning the brand, or going global (it would be nice, but it would take time to revamp the lineup).
you ready for it?
EXTEND THE WHEELBASE.
That's it, if anything else, while you're at it, throw in a chunky piece of IMA.
Noone wants a TL+, when they can get the real one the otherside of the same lot.
Until the Acura brand has something exclusive and special, other than the TL, it's not worth going global with. The brand itself could use that money, and put it into marketing and better service for now.
It's about time for a new halo car in the Acura lineup to come along. And as for brand image, I'd like for Acura to become more distinctly american.
Like American Luxury, the Honda way.
All this, and I'm a Canuck.
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AccordinglyJay
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Just saw my first RL A-Spec at the Acura dealer in Queens yesterday. Black with black...looked pretty nice, though I couldn't notice much of a drop (specs only call for 3/4" drop).
One problem: the dealer had the A-Spec price right next to the window sticker listed as about $9K installed!!! I told them that's retail, plus, plus, and when they asked how much I'd want to pay, I said $6K. They also had a nice TL 6 speed A-spec in black/black with tint. Very menacing, but, again, they wanted $8,500 for the package (with wing spoiler).
Sounds like dealer gouging on an already overpriced package! If I ever consider either car, I might have to find a dealer on E-Bay selling separate components, cause the prices above are a rip!! PS - They did admit to having plenty of RLs in stock. Hmmm...wondering if an A-Spec can be had for $51K total??
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tonycd
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With all due respect to the kindly webmaster, why was McA's post rated as a zero? I found it inoffensive and very informative. Was it just because it was in all-caps?
Thanks in advance for explaining.
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RyanDL
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tonycd wrote:
With all due respect to the kindly webmaster, why was McA's post rated as a zero? I found it inoffensive and very informative. Was it just because it was in all-caps?
Thanks in advance for explaining.
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It would appear that all of his posts are in all caps, which we downgrade due to netiquette fouls. This has caused his initial post score to drop to 0.
Ryan
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TC1
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hondamore wrote:
I agree entirely (and am on record as saying) that the RL should have been priced much lower for the exact reasons you mentioned. The point I was making was that Honda may be trying to have their cake and eat it too by having the MSRP high to act as a flagship, make large profit from early sales, and later discount the price to sustain volume levels.
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I agree, they overpriced the MSRP when they launched the car. Perhaps they were looking at what a comparable BMW 5 series would cost (or E Class) and thought that they could command $50k for the car. I think the miscalculation was that they didn't consider resale value, which was/is dismal for the previous generation RL. That was my biggest concern about purchasing an 05 RL. However, my wife really liked the car, so here we are. And I'm not disappointed in the car, it is a great car, but not worth $50k.
It will be interesting to see what Acura does with the car in terms of year-over-year improvements and variations. As an owner of the only othe Acura that sells even worst than the RL - the NSX - Honda's biggest failing has been to not improve its so-called flagship cars for years at a stretch (and in the case of the NSX, the improvements were so minor). It's counter productive - Acura loses its hard won customers high-end customers by letting the product get stale. Many of my NSX buddies have long gone to Ferrari (and some to Porsche) where they are assured that the cars will be continually varied (a sub-model) and upgraded. Consider all of the variations of the 5 series (including the awesome M5) and E-Class (including the awesome E55) - there is something new almost every year to refresh the product and generate new buyers. And give current owners something to upgrade to. I've been wanting to upgrade my NSX for years - but after 7+ years of empty promises by Honda, I feel like Sally who waited for the Great Pumpkin while everyone else got lots of candy. If Honda isn't going to keep its flagship products at (or near) the front of the pack, then why have them in the first place? As great as the NSX was in 1991, it's an embarrassment today. And if Acura isn't going to sell anything that isn't a rebadged Honda, then why have Acura? Lexus cars a fundamentally different than Toyota cars - V8's, rear-wheel drive, larger platforms, etc. Even Cadillac cars (the newer models such as SRX, CTS, and STS) are fundamentally different than other GM cars.
Perhaps Honda is too practical-minded to understand the luxury market, which is why all of their high-end products (NSX and the past two generations of the RL) are market failures.
BTW, I'd like to say that I've enjoyed these discussions. Some message boards have a high idiot-to-intelligence factor - but not here.
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JeffreynLA
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TC1, I could not have said it better.
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