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TOV Forums > ILX > > Re: More ILX impressions

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CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-02-2013 22:58
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Let's not get carried away. Volkswagens do not hold their value better than Acuras. That's simply nonsense.

The ILX is a failed product and yet it"s still a Honda, with all that that entails. Volkswagen, meanwhile, has one of the worst track records in the industry in terms of reliability.

Flawed though it may be, the ILX is likely to make for a desirable used purchase on account of it appears to be a typically solid Honda product. Long-term reliability affects resale value far more than how popular the car was when new.

The ILX is a disappointment, clearly, but let's not simply pile it on for effect. It's an OK product that should have been more. Consumers' expectations were much higher than the goals set by Honda. I would guess even Honda management has figured that out by now.

I'm sure that thousands will buy the ILX and not end up with a horrible product or deep regrets at the end of it all. In that sense, the ILX will not do any long-term harm. Yet it should have been so much more.

jshaw
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 00:26
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Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla? Doesn't that start failing to hold true in the luxury car segment... the one Acura supposedly competes in? The one where reliability is rapidly starting to take a back seat, so long as it can last through the lease period without too many flaws?
Nick GravesX
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 05:37
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jshaw wrote:
Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla? Doesn't that start failing to hold true in the luxury car segment... the one Acura supposedly competes in? The one where reliability is rapidly starting to take a back seat, so long as it can last through the lease period without too many flaws?


Interesting point and one that is so often overlooked.

So are manipulated leasing rates.

I think those explain the German hegemony of the premium market, as much as the perceived desirability of the product.

That's possibly where the advantage of 'Smart Luxury' comes in, but that's a near-impossible sell!
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 07:57
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jshaw wrote:
Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla? Doesn't that start failing to hold true in the luxury car segment... the one Acura supposedly competes in? The one where reliability is rapidly starting to take a back seat, so long as it can last through the lease period without too many flaws?


Cars that fall apart soon after the lease period end up with terrible resale value over the long haul. This would be disastrous all around. If a five-year-old Acura is a piece of junk, over the long haul the cost of ownership dramatically increases even for those who are leasing. After all, if the price of a used Acura suffers, dealerships are going to charge more for leases to compensate.

As such, it is utter nonsense that build quality beyond the lease period is meaningless. It matters big time, even if you lease, picking up a new car every three years.

No question that Honda needs to up its Acura game, in terms on non-SUV offerings, but to do so at the expense of long-term reliability would likely prove fatal.
DCR
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 09:58
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jshaw wrote:
Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla?


My mother just put down her 1998 Corolla with over 300,000 miles.

Having about a 140 mile commute per day will do that to a car. Outside of normal maintenance items, the car was rock solid, and the body panels didn't last as long as the rest of it.
Nick GravesX
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 11:38
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CarmB wrote:
jshaw wrote:
Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla? Doesn't that start failing to hold true in the luxury car segment... the one Acura supposedly competes in? The one where reliability is rapidly starting to take a back seat, so long as it can last through the lease period without too many flaws?


Cars that fall apart soon after the lease period end up with terrible resale value over the long haul. This would be disastrous all around. If a five-year-old Acura is a piece of junk, over the long haul the cost of ownership dramatically increases even for those who are leasing. After all, if the price of a used Acura suffers, dealerships are going to charge more for leases to compensate.

As such, it is utter nonsense that build quality beyond the lease period is meaningless. It matters big time, even if you lease, picking up a new car every three years.

No question that Honda needs to up its Acura game, in terms on non-SUV offerings, but to do so at the expense of long-term reliability would likely prove fatal.






That's undoubtably true, except:

I still wonder how Mercedes-Benz got away with it for so many years - actually, even when they were still under warranty, they were utter shit. I'd still not trust one now.

Goebbels would have been proud.
sadlerau
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 12:10
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DCR wrote:
jshaw wrote:
Isn't that the excuse Toyota practically uses to justify the Corolla?


My mother just put down her 1998 Corolla with over 300,000 miles.

Having about a 140 mile commute per day will do that to a car. Outside of normal maintenance items, the car was rock solid, and the body panels didn't last as long as the rest of it.



I still have my 1998 Landcruiser V8 with 250,000 miles coming up. Used as my daily from new till 2006, it still does duty as my tow vehicle and the office's spare car for everyone. Now spends most days just sitting in the shed, waiting to be used - but still fires up first turn of the key, like when it was new.
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 12:56
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I can tell you with certainty that Honda would lose me as a customer if they started making cars that seemed initially impressive but were basically garbage over the long haul. I can't be the only one who feels that way.
CivicB18
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 13:44
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This is what the ILX needs:
- ILX 210hp 2.4 7/DCT or 6MT
- ILX 270hp 2.0t SH-AWD 7/DCT or 6MT

The hybrid and the current 2.0l should be dropped!
RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 14:06
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CivicB18 wrote:
This is what the ILX needs:
- ILX 210hp 2.4 7/DCT or 6MT
- ILX 270hp 2.0t SH-AWD 7/DCT or 6MT

The hybrid and the current 2.0l should be dropped!



IMO it desperately needs the Accord's 2.4 ED with 180ish HP on regular fuel.
jshaw
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 14:35
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CarmB wrote:
I can tell you with certainty that Honda would lose me as a customer if they started making cars that seemed initially impressive but were basically garbage over the long haul. I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Honda would. Acura wouldn't. But that's only if they can play at that level.
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 16:44
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jshaw wrote:
CarmB wrote:
I can tell you with certainty that Honda would lose me as a customer if they started making cars that seemed initially impressive but were basically garbage over the long haul. I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Honda would. Acura wouldn't. But that's only if they can play at that level.



Where did this notion that someone buying an upscale brand only looks for a three- or four-year car come from? Fact is, somebody buys an older luxury-brand product, even if the original owner swaps out cars every three or four years. As such, what said product is like four, five, six years in and well beyond, still matters. It matters to the person buying the car used and it matters to the person trading it in, because it's value as an older car affects both parties.

It would be rather odd to build quality into a Honda and not do the same for an Acura. I would certainly be turned off enough to switch brands if I thought Honda was cynically making cars look good on the surface by making them worse at their core.

Acura is already having a hard time making a case for itself. Making better Hondas than Acuras on yet another level would only make it worse.
Mikeydred
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 17:16
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Well said and many do argue used is the way to go as you take less of a hit on depreciation. Who would want to be stuck with a used POC in the used market? Every brand must take reliability into consideration and would love to have the reputation of Honda or Toyota, but the fact of the matter is they just canít do it. The Germans problem is they sell so many cars that they donít have the time to worry about quality and they know that most will only drive it for a few years and look to take advantage of the next lease deal, I guess for the most part thatís why their resale value is poor and also why you hear so many horror stories of ownership because itís the second hand guy thatís stuck with the problems.
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 18:51
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I love buying new and I'm willing to pay a little extra to do it. Certainly the financial argument for buying a slightly used car is a valid one but what can I say. It's just something that I prefer and I willingly pay the extra to do it. The only used car I've owned was my first, a '74 Valiant. It almost doesn't count in that I bought it off my dad and drove it from the day it was purchased new. I could sum up that one with rattles, leaks and bulletproof. Ah, the memories.

Inspire97
Profile for Inspire97
Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 18:55
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JeffX wrote:
A77X wrote:
I have a top spec ILX 2.0 auto as a loaner today. It's not a bad car by any means - but some things you notice. It feels more cramped than a Civic, let alone a TSX. Its also kind of claustrophobic - the windows are small, and that compounds this crampedness. I find it quiet enough and adequate performing. Its steering is way overboosted and totally feel-less. Civic is better. The leather wheel is of the smoothest stuff I have ever seen....that's not good either. It rides...no better than a Civic. And the Civic may be slightly quieter too - there's not much in it.

The only aspect of it that is better than Honda is the stereo. It still sounds crap on FM and XM (but less crappy than the woe-ful Accord), but on CD or even Bluetooth audio the ELS system is very nice. Gets a bit strained at high levels compared to a really good system, and its subwoofer is nothing to write home about, (curiously I think my base TSX may be better in this respect) but other than that...it's impressive - very detailed indeed.

I don't like the dash design in front of the passenger - just a giant blocky swathe of dash. No lumbar adjustment. I got the same mileage on the journey from the dealer to work as I would have got in the TSX. according to the trip computer. Its black and shiney, and looks at its best in this colour.

i wouldnt dream of buying one over an Accord, and the money saved could be put to sorting the Accord's stereo out a bit. My 98 Accord has way better FM quality. I am not sure that even can be fixed - as its inherent int he head amp.

Totally off topic but I noticed today that Canadian Accord Sports have puddle lights. and 2014 CRVs have sensorless TPMS. Like the Accord. An unpublicised change. me thinks.



with respect to your FM/XM comments, I cannot for the life of me understand how/why Honda has managed to bugger this up so badly. Well, as far as source material goes, XM largely sucks anyhow. But FM (on '13 Accord too) just sounds really thin, flat, lifeless, and just wrong. Bluetooth, CD, USB, iPod sources sound MUCH better. I'm sure FM tuner ICs are a dime a dozen these days - I can't imagine cost considerations being any sort of driving factor which would drive Honda to spec an inferior part, particularly not in an Acura at any level or an Accord. Something tells me there's a design issue in the head unit itself.



Hi Jeff, similar experience here. Recently purchased a '13 EX-L Navi. My wife has a '12 CR-Z with the 360 watt system. In both cases, FM sounds muffled and weak. MP3's and CD's sound dramatically better. In previous Hondas and Acuras we've owned, the difference was nowhere near as pronounced.
jshaw
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 20:11
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CarmB wrote:
jshaw wrote:
CarmB wrote:
I can tell you with certainty that Honda would lose me as a customer if they started making cars that seemed initially impressive but were basically garbage over the long haul. I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Honda would. Acura wouldn't. But that's only if they can play at that level.



Where did this notion that someone buying an upscale brand only looks for a three- or four-year car come from? Fact is, somebody buys an older luxury-brand product, even if the original owner swaps out cars every three or four years. As such, what said product is like four, five, six years in and well beyond, still matters. It matters to the person buying the car used and it matters to the person trading it in, because it's value as an older car affects both parties.

It would be rather odd to build quality into a Honda and not do the same for an Acura. I would certainly be turned off enough to switch brands if I thought Honda was cynically making cars look good on the surface by making them worse at their core.

Acura is already having a hard time making a case for itself. Making better Hondas than Acuras on yet another level would only make it worse.


Don't get hung up on it, however it is a subtle intent from the automakers. It keeps the end-to-end life of each automobile tightly within the 3 German's control. Fewer old BMWs, Audis, and Mercedes (to a lesser extent) polluting the streets.

However, the real deal is, when even Lexus, easily one of the most reliable brands out there, is seeing 40%+ of their unit volume being moved by leases, then the writing is already on the wall. The luxury market is increasingly catering to those who lease their cars (or their company leases it for them [with only 20%-50% of the lease cost being paid by the person]). On the other end, the BMW 7 series sees an ~80% lease rate (2012). It's obvious "owners" are dumping the cars after the bundled maintenance and warranty run out, but were impressed enough to consider part-ownership of the vehicle for the next 3-4 years.


Sourced from RL Polk, the same people who claim Honda has the lowest fleet sales...

BTW, if the target market wanted a reliable (second or third) vehicle, it would purchase a normal car.*

Am I saying Acura *must* compromise their reliability in order to beat the market? Acura has to be aware few others in this club play by the same rules - and the expectation for cars in this group are much different.

Of course, there will always be the Honda+ market that Acura currently caters to. However, given how compelling other choices are growing to be (a Lexus that is no longer dull to drive? A more refined Infiniti!? The Germans sending new products to compete in the lower reaches of the market!!?), Acura's position is no longer as strong as it once was (and it's mostly in a SUV-void where the RX is too expensive, and the Germans are in a different world). Perhaps a multi-vehicle strategy like Lexus' IS/ES/GS lineup will help shore up the sedans, for those who want Honda+, and those who want an Acura (it's vaguely definable). Though that's incredibly unlikely from Honda.


*This isn't the best set of information to prove a point, however, it's close enough.



Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 20:40
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CarmB wrote:
I love buying new and I'm willing to pay a little extra to do it. Certainly the financial argument for buying a slightly used car is a valid one but what can I say. It's just something that I prefer and I willingly pay the extra to do it. The only used car I've owned was my first, a '74 Valiant. It almost doesn't count in that I bought it off my dad and drove it from the day it was purchased new. I could sum up that one with rattles, leaks and bulletproof. Ah, the memories.


Same here I want to be the first to fart in my seat lol, but I'm arguing on the other side of the fence.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 21:49
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CarmB wrote:
Let's not get carried away. Volkswagens do not hold their value better than Acuras. That's simply nonsense.

The ILX is a failed product and yet it"s still a Honda, with all that that entails. Volkswagen, meanwhile, has one of the worst track records in the industry in terms of reliability.

Flawed though it may be, the ILX is likely to make for a desirable used purchase on account of it appears to be a typically solid Honda product. Long-term reliability affects resale value far more than how popular the car was when new.

The ILX is a disappointment, clearly, but let's not simply pile it on for effect. It's an OK product that should have been more. Consumers' expectations were much higher than the goals set by Honda. I would guess even Honda management has figured that out by now.

I'm sure that thousands will buy the ILX and not end up with a horrible product or deep regrets at the end of it all. In that sense, the ILX will not do any long-term harm. Yet it should have been so much more.




*sigh*

Please re-read for comprehension.

I did NOT claim VW held their value better than Acura. Anywhere. The fact that you even managed to come up with that shows how far off your comprehension was.

1) The rest of the point is still completely valid.

2) The value of the ILX is diminished by incentives. Since initial value is diminished, and resale is a % of initial value, it isn't rocket science to extrapolate the math. Again, see 2012 Civic.

3) This illusion that every Honda holds its value the same is just that. There is no intrinsic value to a Honda product other than the steel it is built with. The reason MOST Hondas tend to hold their values is because of the execution, which the ILX lacks in many areas. There are quite a few other Acuras that haven't done a stellar job of holding value, and there are also several Hondas.

4) Nothing I said was "piled on for effect." However, everything I said was just as valid today as it was at launch. No amount of "boosting" on Honda's part is going to change that.

5) Given the price and the circumstance, the VW is still a better choice IMO. They don't hold their value well, but I bet in 5 years they won't be as much different as the initial retail value would suggest...

Relative to its competition, it really isn't even an "OK" product. It easily trails the class. I get this B.S. "we don't want to tell anyone they are a failure" crap that is being pushed in our society, but it is just that. B.S. The ILX is an unquestionably failure in every way measurable.
owequitit
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 22:02
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CarmB wrote:
jshaw wrote:
CarmB wrote:
I can tell you with certainty that Honda would lose me as a customer if they started making cars that seemed initially impressive but were basically garbage over the long haul. I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Honda would. Acura wouldn't. But that's only if they can play at that level.



Where did this notion that someone buying an upscale brand only looks for a three- or four-year car come from? Fact is, somebody buys an older luxury-brand product, even if the original owner swaps out cars every three or four years. As such, what said product is like four, five, six years in and well beyond, still matters. It matters to the person buying the car used and it matters to the person trading it in, because it's value as an older car affects both parties.

It would be rather odd to build quality into a Honda and not do the same for an Acura. I would certainly be turned off enough to switch brands if I thought Honda was cynically making cars look good on the surface by making them worse at their core.

Acura is already having a hard time making a case for itself. Making better Hondas than Acuras on yet another level would only make it worse.



Your logic in this thread is so flawed, it would really be easier for you to just quit now.

1) You are completely misinterpreting nearly every point to make your case look valid.

2) Reliability and desirability are not mutually exclusive. Honda has plenty of history and proof of that.

3) The lessee doesn't take the hit on depreciation when BMW is subsidizing it. Take a look at the textbook definition of "subsidize" or "subsidy" and then come back. Because BMW is subsidizing the loan, partly by including maintenance, and partly by absorbing the depreciation hit, there is no downside for the consumer. When BMW offers a lease rate of $XXX.XX per month based on a transaction price, the lessee isn't affected as long as they turn the car in, and the price is a reasonable one.

Ultimately, BMW got smart and stopped the Japanese invasion by making the total monthly cost competitive with the Japanese cars. That completely eliminated the chasm that existed with Japanese companies being able to claim resale, because it no longer mattered to the consumer. So for a nominal increase in monthly outlay, the buyer got a better car for the term of the lease. Throw in free maintenance, and BMW completely eliminated any perceived advantage the Japanese had. It didn't take long for Merc and Audi to see the benefit and follow the lead. The combination of initial production margin, financing margin, service margin (long term) and resale value cover the initial investment of BMW.

The other side to that coin, is that now it puts the ball back in the Japanese courts, because they have to either follow suit to gain market share, or they have to deliver their traditional values with increased performance and perception, for the same price.
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 00:17
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It's simple, really. Cars that have excessive problems as they age, depreciate faster. This is not rocket science. The resale value of ILXs when they're on the market in a few years will be dictated mainly by their track record in regards to reliability.

Word gets out that Model X or Y is a solid ride and those are the cars consumers seek out in the used market.

Is the ILX a disappointment? Utterly. Is it such a horrible car that no one would dream of buying one? Clearly that's not the case. Thousands of them have been bought as new and if those same cars hit the used market, they'll be bought then, too. I predict they'll sell just fine as used cars, holding their value reasonably well. Solid, dependable, well equiped compact sedans are popular as used cars and that's what the ILX is, despite being a disappointing effort.





DCR
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 00:27
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It is plain as day.

The ILX is a steaming shit pile. It is...and there is no way around it. There is no wand to wave around that makes it any different, and who are they trying to fool?

I finally saw one. One. In the lot at work, and I laughed...I couldn't believe I was seeing one, but someone actually paid the premium on this car.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 01:35
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CarmB wrote:
It's simple, really. Cars that have excessive problems as they age, depreciate faster. This is not rocket science. The resale value of ILXs when they're on the market in a few years will be dictated mainly by their track record in regards to reliability.

Word gets out that Model X or Y is a solid ride and those are the cars consumers seek out in the used market.

Is the ILX a disappointment? Utterly. Is it such a horrible car that no one would dream of buying one? Clearly that's not the case. Thousands of them have been bought as new and if those same cars hit the used market, they'll be bought then, too. I predict they'll sell just fine as used cars, holding their value reasonably well. Solid, dependable, well equiped compact sedans are popular as used cars and that's what the ILX is, despite being a disappointing effort.








Carm, you have already been caught with your pants down, and you are doing what you always do. You construct the same argument over and over in slightly different ways, and then try to pretend you aren't saying what you are by attempting to turn around and say the ILX is rubbish (after you have spent a whole post defending its virtues).

In order to retain value, a car needs 2 things. Desirability AND dependability. A luxury car without both isn't going to do well in the used market, because it has to fight the same battle it is fighting new. It has to compete with cars costing less, but effectively offering the same thing, or it has to compete with cars that offer more, but cost more. But don't you worry, you can mark my words (just like you could take my words on the 2012 Civic to the bank). In 5 years, the ILX isn't going to be a screaming hit on the used car market, just like the Del Sol, the 1st gen TL, the Vigor, etc. It simply isn't a car people are going to WANT to buy in 5 years, which leaves the same fundamental problem of over-supply. It is brand new now and they don't want to buy it. It is barely competitive now, and yet, I am supposed to believe it is going to be some gold mine in 5 years? Unlikely. You attempt to pretend you are applying huge mental math here, but the reality is that even if the VW depreciates a larger %, it may still likely be worth as much as an ILX because a larger % of a smaller number is still a smaller number (don't forget that MSRP of a fully loaded GLI is about $3-4K less than a fully loaded ILX). Of course, that assumes that both cars are selling for retail, which the ILX isn't. Chop the $2500-3K off they are putting on the hood, add in the high % of unwanted 5AT models, and then put a few years on the inventory, and they aren't going to be blowing off lots. Most people are going to opt into a used Accord or 2013+ Civic (just like they are doing now, but new) because they get Honda virtue with none of the product failure. If they want something more "luxurious" and/or "sporty," then they are more likely to go get a good deal on a CPO Bimmer, Benz, Audi, or VW. Hell, I bet even a lot of Honda fans fore go the ILX in favor of a slightly older TSX or TL for the same price. I know I would.

Either way, as a potential new car consumer, the value 5 years from now means a lot less because other than a potential hit of residual value, it makes no difference to me. Ironically, the lease cost of a Jetta GLI probably isn't any higher than an ILX. So at the end of the lease, I turn it in and get a new car, just like I would with the ILX. There is no such thing as negative equity on a closed end lease, because worst case scenario is turning the car in and walking away. There isn't a negative equity position on a lease, which is one reason they make so much sense for the buyer. I can just about guarantee the ILX isn't going to have enough extra value left at the end of the lease to justify trading in any equity, so it would probably wash to a zero value, just like the Jetta (assuming I have to walk away). Even the Accords have had a hard time breaking even at the end of a 36 month lease lately. Considering the Accord is about the gold standard of residual values, if the Accord can't do it, the ILX sure can't.
owequitit
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 02:10
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http://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=200471909|sedan&veh2=200484711|sedan&show=0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9&comparatorId=8322103

Here the prices are actually closer than I thought. About $1000 difference. For all intents and purposes, the features are even. The Acura has a few here and there, while the VW is larger, more powerful and has a higher true market value (further support that Acura is eroding value with incentives, since the opposite is true of MSRP values).

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tsx/2013/tco.html?style=200437330

I had to use the TSX because there simply isn't enough data on the ILX. But, the TSX is forecast to experience a 50% depreciation after 5 years, and frankly, I believe that will outperform the ILX simply based on incentives and market perception. But, for the sake of argument, we will assume that the ILX will also depreciate 50% over 5 years.

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta-gli/2013/tco.html?style=200435071

Edmunds forecasts that the GLI will run about a 53% percent depreciation charge. Based on average retail prices, that runs about an extra $600 over the course of a 5 year term.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/acura/ilx/2013/gas%20l4

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/gli

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33147&id=32614

MPG is probably slightly in favor of the ILX (by about 3MPG fleet average). Assuming 15,000 miles per year, and $4 a gallon for premium unleaded, you are looking at about $2,000 for the ILX and $2150 for the Jetta. First, $150 a year isn't much, and second, that is about $700 over the course of a 5 year loan.

However, don't forget that the Jetta also includes the first 3 maintenances for free, which should take you to the end of the warranty. Considering $50-100 for the average ILX service, and one about every 8K miles (about right for what I have seen from Maintenance Minder equipped Hondas) and you are looking at $250-400 in maintenance fees that wouldn't be there on the VW. That pretty much levels the field because the difference is less than 1 or two car payments over a 5 year term (minus gas expenses). It isn't quite the financial catastrophe you paint it as, and given the superior nature of the VW's build quality, the sportier setup, the additional power and torque, and the even or better real world mileage, I would STILL take the VW, even though I wish I could prefer the Honda. You also get a lot more space in a car that isn't hugely bigger with the Jetta.
CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 09:12
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The Volkswagen's superior build quality?

From what I can tell, Volkswagen has major build-quality issues.

Are we talking build quality as in something that works well for a long time or something that looks like it could work well for a long time. There is a difference.

In my sixth year with the CSX, I would say that Acura has build quality of the sort I and others value. Couldn't be happier with the car in terms of how it is holding up. In contrast, my sister's Jetta was a piece of junk. Eventually she got smart, went Honda instead, and hasn't looked back since.

Besides, to be fair, if you're really talking bang for the buck, you can stay within the Honda family and do considerably better than anything Volkswagen has to offer. The Civic, for instance, has configurations that make a lot of sense and a decent enough Accord can be had for substantially less than $30,000, even in Canada where we pay way too much compared to US customers.

Like it or not, while the ILX is understandably disappointing for many, Honda is moving more than a thousand ILXs a month, so somebody is buying them. You'd rather have a Volkswagen and all I can say to that is every automaker has its customers. Myself, I prefer Honda and would consider Mazda but would, under no circumstances, contemplate going Volkswagen.

I would consider declaring Volkswagen to possess superior build quality to be on a par with insisting the ILX has been a success. Both are equally true.
DCR
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 11:51
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Anyone else find it funny that the ILX is seamlessly compared to a Jetta?
Brutus
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 14:19
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DCR wrote:
Anyone else find it funny that the ILX is seamlessly compared to a Jetta?

LOL.

B.
linty
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 17:23
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CarmB wrote:
The Volkswagen's superior build quality?

From what I can tell, Volkswagen has major build-quality issues.

Are we talking build quality as in something that works well for a long time or something that looks like it could work well for a long time. There is a difference.

In my sixth year with the CSX, I would say that Acura has build quality of the sort I and others value. Couldn't be happier with the car in terms of how it is holding up. In contrast, my sister's Jetta was a piece of junk. Eventually she got smart, went Honda instead, and hasn't looked back since.

Besides, to be fair, if you're really talking bang for the buck, you can stay within the Honda family and do considerably better than anything Volkswagen has to offer. The Civic, for instance, has configurations that make a lot of sense and a decent enough Accord can be had for substantially less than $30,000, even in Canada where we pay way too much compared to US customers.

Like it or not, while the ILX is understandably disappointing for many, Honda is moving more than a thousand ILXs a month, so somebody is buying them. You'd rather have a Volkswagen and all I can say to that is every automaker has its customers. Myself, I prefer Honda and would consider Mazda but would, under no circumstances, contemplate going Volkswagen.

I would consider declaring Volkswagen to possess superior build quality to be on a par with insisting the ILX has been a success. Both are equally true.



What are these "Major build-quality issues" that you are referring too?

In 2006 I purchased a Jetta 2.0T / GLI and cross shopped it with a 2006 TSX. The Jetta was a couple grand less and had a slightly better overall package than the TSX. We are now looking at selling the Jetta as we need a larger vehicle and when I compare the similar vehicles and mileage in todays used car market the Jetta and the TSX are equal in resale (Don't forget I paid less for the Jetta). Out of curiosity I checked comparing cars like the Touareg vs MDX and CC vs TL, etc etc and the same was happening there also.

To be honest, comparing the GLI to the ILX is an insult to the actual value you get in the Jetta, as the GLI is an overkill compared to the ILX. The GLI is much more comparable to the TSX especially in Canada.

I am just starting my 9th year of ownership with our Jetta and its been more reliable than any Toyota, Honda or Nissan that we have ever owned. Things like material quality, paint and especially things like build quality (IE: squeaks/Rattles ) are much better IMO with the Jetta.

I am curious as to what part of Canada you live in as out here in western Canada it appears to be much different.


CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 19:09
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DCR wrote:
Anyone else find it funny that the ILX is seamlessly compared to a Jetta?


Everybody makes a well-equiped compact sedan coming in at around the price point of the ILX. Clearly these are the models the ILX will and should be compared to. Makes more sense than comparing it to a Porsche 911 turbo.

CarmB
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 19:47
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Southern ontario.

I don't doubt that there are Volkswagens that give excellent service just as there are, no doubt, some unfortunate Honda products out there. Yet looking at the overall trend, you're more likely to have issues with an older Volkswagen than an older Honda. This is what the data indicates.

Consumer Reports, for instance, has the Jetta's expected reliability rated at worse than average and the TSX better than average. Looking at the breakdown for a 2006 Jetta vs. a 2006 TSX, the TSX's worst score is above average and much better than average is listed for five of eight categories. In comparison, the 2006 Jetta scores much worse than average in two categories, worse than average in three, average in two, and above average in one.

JD Power has Volkswagen ranked last in its' dependability study of three-year-old cars. I suspect it would look even worse if JD went further back.

This isn't a simple matter of me deciding that since my sister had a bad Jetta followed by a good Civic, Honda's cars are more reliable. There is more than isolated anecdotal evidence to go by.

I will say that Volkswagen gets a lot of things right, especially under the Audi banner, in particular interior design. Yet there are issues with their products, considering the big picture, that cause me to not be interested in going there. That's my bias. To each his own.

330R
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Re: More ILX impressions    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 23:14
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I had to drive an ILX hybrid today. No takeoff response. I mean, no takeoff response. The damn thing sits there and thinks about it, and then rolls off with your foot on the accelerator like most cars roll off with just your foot off the brake.

What a maniacally depressing little shit of a car.
 
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