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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????

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Bullwinkle
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Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-01-2013 18:20
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Did not believe this when I heard it, but now I have heard it twice. THe idea being that Ganassi would move to Chevy in Sports Cars (now with BMW) and Indcar (Now with Honda) in order to be an all-Chevy organization.

Comments?
Colin
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-01-2013 18:51
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That would be interesting for sure. If it came to pass, who would gain the focus of Honda next year? Schmitt? Fisher-Hartman? Maybe Dale Coyne?
CafeDelMar90
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-01-2013 18:54
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WOW! did not see that coming, is this confirmed or just pure speculation at this point? damn that will be a massive kick in the balls.
If this is just Chip Ganassi squirming around for more improvements from Honda, then i simply dont understand. The car has been competitive in the second half of this year, just ill luck has gotten in the way of Scotty being in the lead.
If they do switch, does that mean Penske will return to Honda? i dont know how else Honda can be viable in the series with no major teams (penkse or Ganassi)
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-02-2013 17:45
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CafeDelMar90 wrote:
WOW! did not see that coming, is this confirmed or just pure speculation at this point? damn that will be a massive kick in the balls.
If this is just Chip Ganassi squirming around for more improvements from Honda, then i simply dont understand. The car has been competitive in the second half of this year, just ill luck has gotten in the way of Scotty being in the lead.
If they do switch, does that mean Penske will return to Honda? i dont know how else Honda can be viable in the series with no major teams (penkse or Ganassi)



Penske will not return to Honda. The Chevy engines are made by Ilmor, which is owned by Penske. Last time when Penske switched to Honda Ilmor had been making engines branded Mercedes, and Mercedes backed out of the program.

My understanding is that Chevy is proposing that Ganassi be an All-Chevy team. Ganassi is already Chevy in NASCAR. And Chevy is proposing that Ganassi switch to Chevy in USCR (now is BMW) and Indycar (now Honda).

Chevy would pay for all Ganassi costs of switching from BMW to Chevy in USCR and pay all costs associated with switching from Honda to Chevy in Indycar.

As I understand it, Ganassi will stay with Honda in Indycar if HPD gives Ganassi TWO LMP2 cars to race in USCR.

As to HPD in Indycar, losing Ganassi would hurt. Honda's lead team would be Schmidt (which won last year's race with Simon Pagenaud). HPD would also likely get KV (Simona DeSilvestro and Tony Kanann) and Panther. This is because HPD and Ilmor want to manage to each have half the field so that neither has to expand Indycar engine capacity.

sadlerau
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-02-2013 19:29
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Loosing Ganassi would be a disaster. Much as I respect the lesser teams, it would be a BIG ask for any of them to step up and be championship contenders. Any team Honda expects to move up to that level would require a very big, regular, cash injection from Honda till the smaller team could attract the sponsorship to cover the cost of being a championship contender.

It might be more cost effective for Honda to subsidize Ganassi in USCR rather than subsidize a smaller team in Indycar? Getting the benefit of 2 championship front runners instead of just 1?
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-02-2013 20:55
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sadlerau wrote:
Losing Ganassi would be a disaster. Much as I respect the lesser teams, it would be a BIG ask for any of them to step up and be championship contenders. Any team Honda expects to move up to that level would require a very big, regular, cash injection from Honda till the smaller team could attract the sponsorship to cover the cost of being a championship contender.

It might be more cost effective for Honda to subsidize Ganassi in USCR rather than subsidize a smaller team in Indycar? Getting the benefit of 2 championship front runners instead of just 1?



I am sure Chevy's reason for all of this is to lock up all the best teams, both in USCR and Indycar.

But I would not panic if this comes to pass for two reasons:

1) Honda has less power now and has won a five of the last six races. Honda has a significant drivability and fuel mileage edge while Chevy has a total power edge. The power edge is largely due to Chevy's twin turbos versus Honda's single turbo. next Season, Honda will have twin turbos so Honda should have more power, better drivability and better mileage. So Honda should be tough to beat.

2) We've seen this movie before, and it turned out alright. Honda was late switching to the IRL from CART and Toyota had the big teams lined up (Penske, Ganassi). Honda essentially helped start and expand what was then Andretti-Green racing and made it the factory Honda team.

I think it would be bad in the short term. But you have to remember that Foyt, Coyne and Schmidt have won as many races with Honda as Ganassi has this season.
sadlerau
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-02-2013 21:19
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Bullwinkle wrote:
1) Honda has less power now and has won a five of the last six races. Honda has a significant drivability and fuel mileage edge while Chevy has a total power edge. The power edge is largely due to Chevy's twin turbos versus Honda's single turbo. next Season, Honda will have twin turbos so Honda should have more power, better drivability and better mileage. So Honda should be tough to beat.

2) We've seen this movie before, and it turned out alright. Honda was late switching to the IRL from CART and Toyota had the big teams lined up (Penske, Ganassi). Honda essentially helped start and expand what was then Andretti-Green racing and made it the factory Honda team.

I think it would be bad in the short term. But you have to remember that Foyt, Coyne and Schmidt have won as many races with Honda as Ganassi has this season.



Honda may have a driveability advantage this year, but there is no reason to assume they will enjoy the same advantage next year.

Andretti-Green were already a top team, before they became the defacto Honda works team.

Sharing wins amongst multiple smaller teams is not going to win you a driver's championship, and regardless of what the manufacturers would have you believe, the PR clout goes with the driver's championship, not the manufacturer's championship.
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 13:39
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sadlerau wrote:

Honda may have a driveability advantage this year, but there is no reason to assume they will enjoy the same advantage next year.


Why not? It clearly has nothing to do with the turbo configuration, and Chevy has had two engine steps to catch up and has not done so. The drivability and mileage balls are clearly in their court. And Magneti Marelli is not going to help Ilmor. Neither will HPD slow down anytime soon.

Sharing wins amongst multiple smaller teams is not going to win you a driver's championship, and regardless of what the manufacturers would have you believe, the PR clout goes with the driver's championship, not the manufacturer's championship.



One or two strong drivers with strong engineers and a strong engine package could win you the championship. Jorge Lorenzo in MotoGP is Clearly on the inferior Yamaha bike in MotoGP this season, and because he has the only strong Yamaha, he has a very good chance to win the title.

The same thing could work out for Pagenaud or, say, Bourdais. Also, if Ganassi leaves I would predict that HPD would put on a full-court press to steal Bourdais for one of their teams and maybe Briscoe. HPD might have to put some more money into their team development programs.

Don't get me wrong. Ganassi leaving would be bad. Bad enough to consider giving Ganassi two LMP2 cars (worth a total of about $1 million), I don't know.

Memo60
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 14:44
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I send a email to Robin Miller from NBC sports and Racer today and he anserwed me that he will to his Honda guy, I think he doesnt know that rumor.
longhorn
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 15:33
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Funny, I had a HPD official at SEMA tell me they stopped giving money to teams. Its only technical support. The good ole CART days of Honda paying driver's salaries were over..........supposively.
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-03-2013 16:21
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longhorn wrote:
Funny, I had a HPD official at SEMA tell me they stopped giving money to teams. Its only technical support. The good ole CART days of Honda paying driver's salaries were over..........supposively.


It's not like the CART days, that's for sure. But deals are cut.

For one thing, HPD can only charge teams $750,000 per car per year for the engines. But they cost more than that and the difference comes from American Honda Marketing.

And Honda brings sponsors, drivers and investors to teams it favors. The Magneti-Marelli sponsorship on Pagenaud's car is direct support from HPD. There are other examples.

Then there are "special" relationships with teams. Honda gets to choose which teams run in its engine tests. And the teams and drivers get paid for that.

Also, drivers get paid for promotional appearances for Honda by Honda.

This Ganassi thing is a classic example of outside the box thinking. Honda would not be giving Ganassi's Indycar program anything. What they would be doing is giving them two HPD LMP2 cars to run in USCR. There's no USCR rule against that. And it's beyond the scope of Indycar's rules. Still, it is a $1 million benefit to Ganassi.
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 13:14
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UPDATE: Mike Hull was on Trackside Radio last night and he indicated that the team was close to deciding on an engine partner for next year and then talked about how consistency in partnerships was important. And that starting over would be hard.

So, we'll see.
CafeDelMar90
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-04-2013 19:20
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Bullwinkle wrote:
UPDATE: Mike Hull was on Trackside Radio last night and he indicated that the team was close to deciding on an engine partner for next year and then talked about how consistency in partnerships was important. And that starting over would be hard.

So, we'll see.



well then i guess itll be ganassi Honda next year, unless they drop a complete bombshell..
Memo60
Profile for Memo60
Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-10-2013 05:50
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This is what Robin Miller answered me:

"I don't think so but it's too early and if Chip's lips are moving he's usually lying (smile)"

So I don't think there moving to Chevy anytime soon.
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-10-2013 10:34
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Also Scott Pruett just instagram a picture that state "in the works"
of a Ganassi Target HPD P2.
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi to Chevy in Indycar?    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-10-2013 17:34
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Also Scott Pruett just instagram a picture that state "in the works"
of a Ganassi Target HPD P2.



That picture is more than a little sketchy. My guess is it was photoshopped. But coming from Pruett, who knows? Perhaps that's why Enzo Potolicchio can't get one?
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2013 13:22
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Thursday there was a Chip Ganassi Racing teams twitter Q&A with team president Steve Lauletta:

One of the Questions:"Which way are you leaning for USCR? DP? LMP2?"

Answer: "Not done yet but doubt we are going to buy new cars".

Analysis: Ganassi is talking to Honda and Chevy for Indycar next year. Chevy is pitching the idea that Ganassi could be an All Chevy team by switching from BMW to Corvette in USCR DP and switching from Honda to Chevy in Indycar. This option would not require the team to buy new DP cars.

Honda, on the other hand, would like Ganassi to switch from BMW DP to Honda LMP2 in USCR. But that would require acquiring new cars.

Since Ganassi is not likely to buy new cars for USCR, that could indicate the team is close to defecting from Honda in Indycar.


Discuss.
longhorn
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2013 14:20
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Ganassi lets Juan go from Nascar and he signs with Penske in Indycar and now Ganassi defecting from Honda? I guess anything is possible. Its definately not like the grand ole CART days.
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2013 14:38
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The people in the 'know' in racing know that anything out of Ganassi's mouth is BS until the official press release!

The talk in USCR is that your going to need a DP(Daytona 24hr) and a P2(most other tracks) next year to win the championship because at some tracks the DP will be better and at others the P2 will be better.

Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2013 16:25
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Not so sure about needing a DP at Daytona. The DPs are going to have to change their steel brake discs at least once and maybe twice in 24 hours. WHile the LMPs can go most of the season without changing.

I think very few people are going to campaign both types of cars. Why would you spend $150k on upgrades to each DP and not use it everywhere. Am Sure Chevy/Ford would frown on using a Honda or Nissan at places like Sebring and Petite.
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2013 18:35
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DP will have about 100-150 horsepower more than the P2 with less drag.

So at the oval-courses(Daytona,Indy) with long straits the DP is the car to have.

P2 with more downforce and being lighter will be better at the street courses and tight road courses.

That is why DP teams are looking to buy a P2 so they can switch to the better chassis for each track!

They can buy a Oreca and put a Ford or Chevy engine in it....
The engine in the P2 is not a stress member.
Memo60
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-21-2013 07:00
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All they news of teams and engines will be at the end of the season, so we have to wait to see. Personally I don't think they they will move to Chevy.
Memo60
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-21-2013 11:08
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What you think Rolled?
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-21-2013 11:48
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Ganassi just wants a free HPD P2.

HPD still has a few ARX-01 at the shop.

And there is some other funny news this weekend at COTA that some DP teams are looking at PC(stable rules) next year over DP/P2!

But here is the funny thing...The PC uses the same tub as a P2.
Bullwinkle
Profile for Bullwinkle
Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-22-2013 21:34
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RolledaNsx wrote:
DP will have about 100-150 horsepower more than the P2 with less drag.

So at the oval-courses(Daytona,Indy) with long straits the DP is the car to have.

P2 with more downforce and being lighter will be better at the street courses and tight road courses.

That is why DP teams are looking to buy a P2 so they can switch to the better chassis for each track!

They can buy a Oreca and put a Ford or Chevy engine in it....
The engine in the P2 is not a stress member.



There is a flaw in your logic. The track where ther is biggest lap difference between LMP 2 and DP is road America. Which has the longest and fastest straights of any road course in North America.

So even though the the DP top speed is 11mph higher, the P2s are six seconds a lap faster.
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2013 00:27
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With the new aero that the DP is getting(tunnel floor with diffuser and two or three element rear wing....about 500lbs less DF than P2 but with less drag)and another 100 horsepower added next year(P2-500HP,DP-650HP) when the Dp hits the oval part of the track behind the P2,it will draft by the P2 and game is over!

Next year on the same tires the P2 will be about 1-2 sec faster than the DP but in the race at Daytona the P2 will lose that advantage because of low top speed and dealing with traffic.The P2 can not knock people out of the way like the DP can(bump run NASCAR style).

But that would only be a problem at the Rovals!!!!!

The P2 will rule every where else but the Rolex 24 is to USCC as Indy 500 is to Indycar!
RolledaNsx
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2013 00:50
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WEC and USCC schedule was announced this weekend and there is a problem if you have P2 and is racing in the USCC.

The Detroit race in USCC is the same weekend as the Le Mans 24hr test day!

That will keep most P2's out of USCC or it pretty much means that a DP will win the USCC championship because the P2 will miss a race.
gofast182
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2013 11:14
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RolledaNsx wrote:
WEC and USCC schedule was announced this weekend and there is a problem if you have P2 and is racing in the USCC.

The Detroit race in USCC is the same weekend as the Le Mans 24hr test day!

That will keep most P2's out of USCC or it pretty much means that a DP will win the USCC championship because the P2 will miss a race.


I noticed that, too. Jackasses. Le Mans is the pinnacle and it should be the goal of a series to have its cars/drivers there and represent it well and not be penalized for it. Any dumbing down of P2 as a class or known conflicts being brought into the schedule are sad statements and indications of a poor series.

What happens with tires at Le Mans? Do they get to run Michelin or do they have to run shitty Continental?
Bullwinkle
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Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2013 11:43
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RolledaNsx wrote:
With the new aero that the DP is getting(tunnel floor with diffuser and two or three element rear wing....about 500lbs less DF than P2 but with less drag)and another 100 horsepower added next year(P2-500HP,DP-650HP) when the Dp hits the oval part of the track behind the P2,it will draft by the P2 and game is over!

Next year on the same tires the P2 will be about 1-2 sec faster than the DP but in the race at Daytona the P2 will lose that advantage because of low top speed and dealing with traffic.The P2 can not knock people out of the way like the DP can(bump run NASCAR style).

But that would only be a problem at the Rovals!!!!!

The P2 will rule every where else but the Rolex 24 is to USCC as Indy 500 is to Indycar!



I don't argue with your logic on P2s being faster everywhere but Daytona.

HOWEVER, I have some pretty interesting data from Road America what may also apply to Daytona, and the upshot is this:

Not only are P2s Faster through corners than DPs (because of downforce, etc.), but the P2s are also faster down long straights because they accelerate so much faster (lighter weight). One of the segments at Road America was basically a turn and a very long straight. At the end of that straight was a speed trap.

In the speed trap, the DPs were doing 11+ MPH more than the P2.

However, for the segment, the P2s were MORE THAN A SECOND faster. This was due to slightly higher speed in the corner but mostly due to a brutal acceleration advantage. The DPs were just hitting their top speed at the speed trap. The P2s hit their top speed Hundreds of yards before the speed trap and were essentially at their terminal velocity long before they hit the speed trap.

Now, remember that this also was with the P2s running in high downforce configuration.

One more thing from the Road America qualifying data: The PCs were three seconds a lap faster than the DPs. And the PCs were also faster than the DPs in the speed trap segment above.

If this were a race, and a P2 was trying to pass a DP, I could envision the following scenario: The P2 pulls up to the DP in the corner because of the higher corner speed. The P2 pulls even and maybe slightly ahead on the straight.

Then the P2 takes the position in the corner due to more efficient braking (due to lower weight and less unsprung mass).

In short, I am not sure that Daytona with have the DP dominance you seem to think it will have.


gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Ganassi staying DP bad news for Honda in Indycar????    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-23-2013 11:50
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Bullwinkle wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
With the new aero that the DP is getting(tunnel floor with diffuser and two or three element rear wing....about 500lbs less DF than P2 but with less drag)and another 100 horsepower added next year(P2-500HP,DP-650HP) when the Dp hits the oval part of the track behind the P2,it will draft by the P2 and game is over!

Next year on the same tires the P2 will be about 1-2 sec faster than the DP but in the race at Daytona the P2 will lose that advantage because of low top speed and dealing with traffic.The P2 can not knock people out of the way like the DP can(bump run NASCAR style).

But that would only be a problem at the Rovals!!!!!

The P2 will rule every where else but the Rolex 24 is to USCC as Indy 500 is to Indycar!



I don't argue with your logic on P2s being faster everywhere but Daytona.

HOWEVER, I have some pretty interesting data from Road America what may also apply to Daytona, and the upshot is this:

Not only are P2s Faster through corners than DPs (because of downforce, etc.), but the P2s are also faster down long straights because they accelerate so much faster (lighter weight). One of the segments at Road America was basically a turn and a very long straight. At the end of that straight was a speed trap.

In the speed trap, the DPs were doing 11+ MPH more than the P2.

However, for the segment, the P2s were MORE THAN A SECOND faster. This was due to slightly higher speed in the corner but mostly due to a brutal acceleration advantage. The DPs were just hitting their top speed at the speed trap. The P2s hit their top speed Hundreds of yards before the speed trap and were essentially at their terminal velocity long before they hit the speed trap.

Now, remember that this also was with the P2s running in high downforce configuration.

One more thing from the Road America qualifying data: The PCs were three seconds a lap faster than the DPs. And the PCs were also faster than the DPs in the speed trap segment above.

If this were a race, and a P2 was trying to pass a DP, I could envision the following scenario: The P2 pulls up to the DP in the corner because of the higher corner speed. The P2 pulls even and maybe slightly ahead on the straight.

Then the P2 takes the position in the corner due to more efficient braking (due to lower weight and less unsprung mass).

In short, I am not sure that Daytona with have the DP dominance you seem to think it will have.




Interesting stuff, now if it plays out that way we'll be in good shape. Hopefully after a year teams will abandon their old DPs in favor of more P2s. DPs are old tech and it's not like there's a higher level for them to aspire to like Le Mans for the P2s.

 
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