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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?

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Fan Koni
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Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 05:34
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OTOH what if ZF wants to keep it low for now??

2009 IIRC ZF too got into trouble, they had to focus and ditched their CVT development for smaller cars.

What if they now plan a JV or something with Honda?
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 08:28
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.

Please enlighten me about this one though, how does any third party transmission connects to an engine? Does the connecting part is specific to a particular engine, or is there a converter or something so the third party factory produce the transmission and the converter.



You don't just "order" one from ZF and it shows up in a shiny box. The customer and supplier has to perform the calibration software and the interfacing together. You also need to consider ancillaries like transmission heater/coolers, hydraulics and power. Chrysler actually makes theirs under license (soon the Kokomo plant will be coming up)

xBeastx wrote:
I understand 9, 10, or even up to 18 speed transmissions in trucks, but how much is too much for a car? Doesn't adding more gears make the gearbox significantly larger? I feel as though a 9 speed or above would be shifting too often to have fun.


Not just skipshift, but the idea is larger gear ratio spreads. Once a gear is locked the losses are quite minimal. Don't be fooled- just like actual engine size vs. displacement, more gears does not technically mean larger or heavier gearboxes. With the use of several nested planetary gearsets as well as dog clutches to simplify the layout, ZF managed to reduce the size of their 9 speed in relation to their previous transmissions. However, ZF themselves said that 9 or 10 speeds is probably the limit, as it's smaller rate of return at that point.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to expect from Honda at this point. The ZF 9-speed is very versatile and modular in the sense that it is a transverse trans with option for AWD and hybridization (similar to their 9 speed)... but it would not likely allow usage for Honda's own proprietary hybrid tech and SH-AWD. I think Honda might try to utilize CVTs with their V6s at some point (or maybe the 6s will slowly start to disappear).


The magic of SH-AWD happens in the rear so as long as they can get a drive shaft back there, I don't see any reason SH-AWD couldn't work with a ZF unit, particularly one that's built with AWD in mind.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 08:54
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True.

Mechanically, incorporating SH-AWD is a piece of piss; the ZF unit will have a transfer box option for 4WD.

The difficulty will be in the electronics; programming it all to talk together nicely and that's what takes the time.

If you look at the ZF website, it explains how the 8HP & 9HP work. They're like an old 4/5-speed auto, with a few extra brakes & clutches.

I warn you though, it will make your brain hurt! It's not as simple as the 2x Derailleur sets on your 21-speed ATB.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 14:25
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Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.
I would imagine that the 6AT will continue in other cars and finish it's production cycle? Honda drivetrain bits usually run 10-15 year lifespans and the 6AT started around 2009ish on the RL. They just started the MDX with it so it's going to run for another 6 years there not to mention the Odyssey and Pilot.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 16:11
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You should know better dealer, the MDX had 6AT since 2010, unless you’re saying it is a carryover onto the 3rd generation. The MDX would be another great candidate for the 9 speed to increase its lead over the competition in the MPG war; the 9 speed would probably help it match the JX hybrid combine mpg. With that being said the 6AT and VCM seems to be very competitive at the moment so unless Honda is worried about long term durability affecting their reputation, I see the 6 AT lasting for many years to come (many still use 6 AT). I will say though they should have just built an 8 speed and be done instead of spending all the time and money to just add 1 more cog, we wouldn’t be having this debate today.
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 17:41
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Mikeydred wrote:
You should know better dealer, the MDX had 6AT since 2010, unless you’re saying it is a carryover onto the 3rd generation.

Huh? Perhaps I phrased it wrong? I know they put the 6AT in the MDX in 2010. I also know that it started earlier than that in the RL. The new 2014 MDX debuted with a 6AT and that this MDX will probably run for 5-6 years. What exactly are you correcting me on?
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-30-2013 18:11
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Colin wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
You should know better dealer, the MDX had 6AT since 2010, unless you’re saying it is a carryover onto the 3rd generation.

Huh? Perhaps I phrased it wrong? I know they put the 6AT in the MDX in 2010. I also know that it started earlier than that in the RL. The new 2014 MDX debuted with a 6AT and that this MDX will probably run for 5-6 years. What exactly are you correcting me on?


They just started the mdx with it, guess it was a poor choice of words.
Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 02:14
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MarkR wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.



This is why Honda is lagging behind so much, because they try to build their own instead of sourcing from the best. 'Everyone' in the top are doing it.



For Honda making their own automatic transmissions in house, they are no more fuel-efficient, no more responsive and certainly no more reliable than the rest. I also say the same about Toyota with their POS Aisin boxes.

The only reliable Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer in my opinion is JATCO. Too bad the Nissans built around them are pretty crappy.
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 12:11
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the ATF-Z1 shall share some of the blame that give Honda AT bad name. there are also discussion about how Honda program their unit to shift overly smooth and cause issue and weak Z1 is not helping.
in fact, I suspect AT unit are all not that reliable in the industry... engine seems to be able to take some abuse and carry on, but not so for transmission.
many car late have AT unit that is not DIY friendly, for me the end cost of maintain the unit by dealership is likely the same as to replace the unit after 6-7 years.. (ie, $3-400 to service the tranny every 2 year = $2000 at 5-6 years.so what is the differences?? of replace the unit at cost of $2000) i somewhat prefer Honda to continue their tradition on mass produced models.
RTypezCivic
Profile for RTypezCivic
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 13:02
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Being a Honda Tech I only see one problem here. To my knowledge Honda does not use any type of planetary gear set in their transmissions. And my understanding is that the ZF uses planetary gears. Every Honda trans I have ever had apart is basically a manual trans with clutch packs in place of MT synchronizers. And It is very unusual for Honda to go to an outside supplier for major mechanical components. It would be the complete opposite of what Honda does.
MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 13:50
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RTypezCivic wrote:
Being a Honda Tech I only see one problem here. To my knowledge Honda does not use any type of planetary gear set in their transmissions. And my understanding is that the ZF uses planetary gears. Every Honda trans I have ever had apart is basically a manual trans with clutch packs in place of MT synchronizers. And It is very unusual for Honda to go to an outside supplier for major mechanical components. It would be the complete opposite of what Honda does.


But Honda is really lagging behind now, they seriously have cr*p products to sell, maybe durable but very old fashioned.

I believe everything you say, but also business papers and others claim that ZF will supply Honda. Do you think Honda rather keep old inhouse tech and get laughed at in every country except Africa and some developing nations... No, I think Honda wants to be perceived as a up-there-with-the best.

bluntly put... sorry.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 14:07
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Power Of Dreams wrote:
MarkR wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.



This is why Honda is lagging behind so much, because they try to build their own instead of sourcing from the best. 'Everyone' in the top are doing it.



For Honda making their own automatic transmissions in house, they are no more fuel-efficient, no more responsive and certainly no more reliable than the rest. I also say the same about Toyota with their POS Aisin boxes.

The only reliable Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer in my opinion is JATCO. Too bad the Nissans built around them are pretty crappy.



I don't think I agree with your first statement. First of all, I don't know if it's because Honda is underrating their engines but for whatever reason, Hondas with ATs tend to have much less power loss to the wheels than competing cars, and if you look at real world fuel economy, somehow Honda manages to outperform most of their competitors with ATs. Also, Honda ATs in my experience operate with better logic and far better responsiveness than any of the so-called "superior" offerings from competitors (dating back to '09 Pilot which was "stuck" with a 5AT while GM and Toyota CUVs had 6ATs. Those 6ATs SUCKED compared to Honda's ancient 5AT).

We all know there were some major challenges with some Honda 4AT and 5ATs in years' past but the problem was essentially down to a 20 cent part getting clogged and not some inherent mechanical design flaw. And Honda stepped up and covered the affected parts even well out of warranty.
RTypezCivic
Profile for RTypezCivic
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 14:14
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MarkR wrote:
RTypezCivic wrote:
Being a Honda Tech I only see one problem here. To my knowledge Honda does not use any type of planetary gear set in their transmissions. And my understanding is that the ZF uses planetary gears. Every Honda trans I have ever had apart is basically a manual trans with clutch packs in place of MT synchronizers. And It is very unusual for Honda to go to an outside supplier for major mechanical components. It would be the complete opposite of what Honda does.


But Honda is really lagging behind now, they seriously have cr*p products to sell, maybe durable but very old fashioned.

I believe everything you say, but also business papers and others claim that ZF will supply Honda. Do you think Honda rather keep old inhouse tech and get laughed at in every country except Africa and some developing nations... No, I think Honda wants to be perceived as a up-there-with-the best.

bluntly put... sorry.



I am not saying its not possible for Honda to use an outside supplier. I'm just saying it would be very unusual for them to do that. And I would never use the word crap to describe any Honda product. (except for maybe the passport but that wasn't really a Honda product) Bland absolutely, but not crap. Who knows this could be a good thing if they do but in the past Honda has not had good luck with partnerships. ie Isuzu and GM. Although I guess the GM thing wasn't too bad
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 14:42
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JeffX wrote:
Power Of Dreams wrote:
MarkR wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.



This is why Honda is lagging behind so much, because they try to build their own instead of sourcing from the best. 'Everyone' in the top are doing it.



For Honda making their own automatic transmissions in house, they are no more fuel-efficient, no more responsive and certainly no more reliable than the rest. I also say the same about Toyota with their POS Aisin boxes.

The only reliable Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer in my opinion is JATCO. Too bad the Nissans built around them are pretty crappy.



I don't think I agree with your first statement. First of all, I don't know if it's because Honda is underrating their engines but for whatever reason, Hondas with ATs tend to have much less power loss to the wheels than competing cars, and if you look at real world fuel economy, somehow Honda manages to outperform most of their competitors with ATs. Also, Honda ATs in my experience operate with better logic and far better responsiveness than any of the so-called "superior" offerings from competitors (dating back to '09 Pilot which was "stuck" with a 5AT while GM and Toyota CUVs had 6ATs. Those 6ATs SUCKED compared to Honda's ancient 5AT).

We all know there were some major challenges with some Honda 4AT and 5ATs in years' past but the problem was essentially down to a 20 cent part getting clogged and not some inherent mechanical design flaw. And Honda stepped up and covered the affected parts even well out of warranty.


My TSX is the first AT car I've had in 12 years and I have to say I don't mind the "ancient" 5AT. It shifts fairly quickly, is always willing to grab a lower gear the moment I want it, and I like the grade logic control (I know it's been around for a while but it's worthwhile). The 6AT in my wife's MDX, I'm not so sure of, it has a weird 1st-2nd shift and seems to slip when downshifting under load.
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 16:42
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the AT that mated with V6 has more problem then these with i4. the 5AT in my 2004 shift better then 09 MDX, but it would just due to weight. the ATF-Z1 that came out of my 09 MDX way before before recommended change interval looks terrible.
I was pampered by the old school Honda AT on i4, so it was hard for me to accept unreliable Honda AT at first. then I learn about AT issue from other manufacture and it seems no one is immune to this AT death. everyone i know own an Audi has AT failure right out of warranty period, or sleepy cvt. Toyota seems to be fine on this. and it's not cheap getting transmission fluid change at dealership here in Toronto either. and is 7 or 8 speed really that great? i doubt.... in fact, i am sure someone can install 2 or 3 even 4 gear as cosmetic purpose, that never got touch, or drive, still claim it as 10 gear, and will driver ever know?
A77X
Profile for A77X
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 19:46
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
xBeastx wrote:
I understand 9, 10, or even up to 18 speed transmissions in trucks, but how much is too much for a car? Doesn't adding more gears make the gearbox significantly larger? I feel as though a 9 speed or above would be shifting too often to have fun.


I can never understand it too. Anything above 7-8 speed auto might as well get a peroperly made CVT.

I don't understand 7MT even.. a properly made 6MT is just perfect imo...



I'd like a 7MT in my TSX. I like the close ratios but a 7th would enable a true highway gear. They could just stretch the 6th but that would make it less useful in suburbia and would probably hurt mpg. I made do with 4 speeds in KL in the 70s - probably 3 is enough now from what I have heard about traffic...
A77X
Profile for A77X
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 20:00
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JeffX wrote:
Power Of Dreams wrote:
MarkR wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.



This is why Honda is lagging behind so much, because they try to build their own instead of sourcing from the best. 'Everyone' in the top are doing it.



For Honda making their own automatic transmissions in house, they are no more fuel-efficient, no more responsive and certainly no more reliable than the rest. I also say the same about Toyota with their POS Aisin boxes.

The only reliable Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer in my opinion is JATCO. Too bad the Nissans built around them are pretty crappy.



I don't think I agree with your first statement. First of all, I don't know if it's because Honda is underrating their engines but for whatever reason, Hondas with ATs tend to have much less power loss to the wheels than competing cars, and if you look at real world fuel economy, somehow Honda manages to outperform most of their competitors with ATs. Also, Honda ATs in my experience operate with better logic and far better responsiveness than any of the so-called "superior" offerings from competitors (dating back to '09 Pilot which was "stuck" with a 5AT while GM and Toyota CUVs had 6ATs. Those 6ATs SUCKED compared to Honda's ancient 5AT).

We all know there were some major challenges with some Honda 4AT and 5ATs in years' past but the problem was essentially down to a 20 cent part getting clogged and not some inherent mechanical design flaw. And Honda stepped up and covered the affected parts even well out of warranty.



That Aisin AT was also in the Mazda CX9. I drove an Acadia in 09 with it - just appalling. Slowest AT ever...apparently it got fixed subsequently. Hondas autos are usually the most responsive of all the mainstream autos, and least annoying. Toyota's 4 speed in the Corolla is terrible too.
FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-01-2013 22:20
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A77X wrote:

I'd like a 7MT in my TSX. I like the close ratios but a 7th would enable a true highway gear. They could just stretch the 6th but that would make it less useful in suburbia and would probably hurt mpg. I made do with 4 speeds in KL in the 70s - probably 3 is enough now from what I have heard about traffic...



What is the normal highway speed there? 80mph?

In KL they just need one gear only now. I just search "KL traffic" image and this is the first pic that comes out :)

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2013 01:17
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The new Sept issue of Mag-X states the Acura TLX will have its debut at the 2014 NY Auto Show.

If thats true...we will not see the TLX until Summer or Fall 2014!!!!

I still think the delay is for the ZF HD9 Trans.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2013 02:07
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And if Acura does use that Trans here is some specs,

V6 size Weight 86kg with oil

Size 521mm wide x 367mm long x 429mm high

16% better mpg over 6 speed AT

Improve 0-60 time up to 2 seconds over 6 speed AT

Torque-converter can be replace with an electric motor

Stop-start

Single-double-multi gear shifting

FWD or AWD
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2013 02:37
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FiSH-Chan wrote:

What is the normal highway speed there? 80mph?

In KL they just need one gear only now. I just search "KL traffic" image and this is the first pic that comes out :)




WOW! I want to be on the road to the left of the picture. :) Won't ever complain about my peak hour traffic again.
DrWhiner
Profile for DrWhiner
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-02-2013 16:40
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A77X wrote:
JeffX wrote:
Power Of Dreams wrote:
MarkR wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
After spending a lot of resource designing the 6AT, I don't think Honda will just go using another brand of automatic transmission anytime soon.



This is why Honda is lagging behind so much, because they try to build their own instead of sourcing from the best. 'Everyone' in the top are doing it.



For Honda making their own automatic transmissions in house, they are no more fuel-efficient, no more responsive and certainly no more reliable than the rest. I also say the same about Toyota with their POS Aisin boxes.

The only reliable Japanese automatic transmission manufacturer in my opinion is JATCO. Too bad the Nissans built around them are pretty crappy.



I don't think I agree with your first statement. First of all, I don't know if it's because Honda is underrating their engines but for whatever reason, Hondas with ATs tend to have much less power loss to the wheels than competing cars, and if you look at real world fuel economy, somehow Honda manages to outperform most of their competitors with ATs. Also, Honda ATs in my experience operate with better logic and far better responsiveness than any of the so-called "superior" offerings from competitors (dating back to '09 Pilot which was "stuck" with a 5AT while GM and Toyota CUVs had 6ATs. Those 6ATs SUCKED compared to Honda's ancient 5AT).

We all know there were some major challenges with some Honda 4AT and 5ATs in years' past but the problem was essentially down to a 20 cent part getting clogged and not some inherent mechanical design flaw. And Honda stepped up and covered the affected parts even well out of warranty.



That Aisin AT was also in the Mazda CX9. I drove an Acadia in 09 with it - just appalling. Slowest AT ever...apparently it got fixed subsequently. Hondas autos are usually the most responsive of all the mainstream autos, and least annoying. Toyota's 4 speed in the Corolla is terrible too.


You mean it's an Aisin AT in the GM truck???
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-04-2013 21:19
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
xBeastx wrote:
I understand 9, 10, or even up to 18 speed transmissions in trucks, but how much is too much for a car? Doesn't adding more gears make the gearbox significantly larger? I feel as though a 9 speed or above would be shifting too often to have fun.


I can never understand it too. Anything above 7-8 speed auto might as well get a peroperly made CVT.

I don't understand 7MT even.. a properly made 6MT is just perfect imo...



I will say it one more time: LARGER GEAR RATIO SPREAD.
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: 2015 Acura TL with ZF 9HD Transmission?    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2013 11:02
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I've had minor issues with the 5AT in my 08 TL. Around 40k it started shuddering on the 3rd to 4th gear change in light throttle situations. Had the dealer take a look at it and they stated that the fluid wasn't burnt but it was old even though the recommendations for tranny fluid changes are at 60k. I changed the fluid at 43k and the shudder immediately went away and the trannys overall operation seemed better. However, it still does weird things every now and then. In low speed downhill situations while accelerating it will sometimes hold 3rd gear for a long time the decides to shift to 4th with a jerk. I hate the 5AT! The gear spread is also way too long for the J32 as in some situations I have to wait for the power to come. The 5AT was a pain in many ways!

The 6AT in my wife's Odyssey and in the RDX loaner I had are much smoother in terms of shift quality. The Odyssey's programming is different as it likes to find the highest gear quicker vs the RDX and its not as responsive. The RDX's setup is ideal as it always seemed like it was in the right gear and would kick down a gear or two right now.

The best automatic transmission I've ever experienced was the 7/DCT in my cousins former 2011 135i convertible M Sport (he now has a 2014 328i xDrive). That transmission was FLAWLESS in any and all situations. It would cruise in town in 7th gear with no gear hunting as the turbo 6 had enough torque. Press the Sport button and it would make it even more responsive and make gear changes even faster.

In terms of the 9 speed, I'd like to see Acura step up their drivetrain game but not for the sake of just being able to say they have 9 gears. If the 9AT can offer more refinement, more performance, better response and more real world efficiency I say go for it.
 
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