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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: 6-speed-manual

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MarkR
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6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 12:26
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I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?

Doesn't that belong to the 90s?

Just because your ITR and my ATR,S2K had a 6-speed-manual I don't want Honda to become a dinosaur and be the most old-tech car manufacturer on planet earth.

The industry moved on the double-clutch/fast autos with 7-9gears years ago...do you want Honda to be stuck behind.

I loved the tight 6-spd box in m S2K, but to be honest I cannot shift as quickly as my ZF8 does with paddles.

BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Sorry to say...
A77
Profile for A77
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 12:54
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I don't think there's a single real enthusiast who prefers a DSG type auto to a true manual with a clutch. Even if all acknowledge double clutch autos get better times and are more efficient. Its just more involving and a little bit of a challenge to drive a manual well. Porsche now have a seven speed manual and that's probably as far as this technology will ever go or need to go - a close ratio 6 plus overdrive 7 is ideal.

Manuals are also super reliable - driven right - they will never give any trouble and cost next to nothing to maintain. The same can't be said of autos.

If you have a dead battery, with a manual you ca always get it rolling, pop the clutch and away you go...

The other factor I would argue is that Honda make the finest manuals out there, and the nicest clutches. We might not be able to afford a Rolls but nice to know you have the world's best of something!
bigblue
Profile for bigblue
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 12:54
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MarkR wrote:
I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?
[...]
BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Because some people find it fun/enjoyable to shift by hand, and maybe double de-clutch on downshifts themselves (there's even now a manual that blips on a downshift for you, saw a video that mentioned it on some car the other other day, think it's the Porsche Cayman ?).

F1 is 7-speed seamless-shift (paddles).

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 13:09
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MarkR wrote:
I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?

Doesn't that belong to the 90s?

Just because your ITR and my ATR,S2K had a 6-speed-manual I don't want Honda to become a dinosaur and be the most old-tech car manufacturer on planet earth.

The industry moved on the double-clutch/fast autos with 7-9gears years ago...do you want Honda to be stuck behind.

I loved the tight 6-spd box in m S2K, but to be honest I cannot shift as quickly as my ZF8 does with paddles.

BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Sorry to say...




It's hard to burn rubber with an AT.

Besides, with an MT and clutch, driving the car feels like riding a bicycle... I have lots of control and I like that.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 13:15
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But Porsche is saying that seven speed manual will be their last manual.Every year less people are buying the manuel option so Porsche don't see spending the money on that option when they design the next gen 911/boxster.
Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 13:26
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I have been struggling with this as well. Everyone loves to row their own 6 speeds, and everyone loves a easy to drive-in the city car.

Problem with rowing your own is that your not as fast as these new DCT's, and you have to do more work in the city. Problem with these automatics is that they give you little or no control over what you do with the gears. But they do well for easy, comfortable driving.

So what can we do? Honda and some other manufactures have made a nice automatic that gave you decent control over the gears with a shift gate, but it was only in a 5 speed. After that Honda switched straight over to paddles ON THE WHEEL and to me that's not ideal at all.

Could we invent a Automatic shifting, Manual biased DCT/ DSG? "What the hell did you just say?"

No really.. it would work like a regular Auto, but the control is all on you for the most part. The only thing you wont have is a clutch to press. Just row the gears like you would in a manual. It can have a full Auto mode where it will do all the shifting for you, or it could be fully manual-mated(Manual Automatic). All while shifting as fast as a DCT/ DSG.

It's like TipTronic, but with actual gates for each gear and multiple neutral points.

Basically is a DCT/DSG with a shift gate mimicking a Manual transmissions with a extra gate off of 6th gear, labeled 'A'/ 'D' for Auto/ Drive mode. That mode is designed/ programmed to work the best at keeping the MPG up and to have a relaxing, comfortable drive. I'm sure there could be more to be said here but I don't build design transmissions. I have thought about it but being that Honda is switching over to ZF's Auto's by 2015-2016 I see no big deal in it, let someone else do it.



The red lines show the path in which you can slid the lever through. You can also just follow the black lines but the red path is there for quicker throws.

It's all just an idea.. don't hate too much. lol

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 13:33
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I keep thinking that if true logic ruled the day with automobiles we'd all be driving Camrys.

Maybe this is just another of those generational things and someday soon Honda will say "thank goodness the last of those manual shift guys has moved to the rest home! Now we can finally offer HRX SmartDrive on the Civics. Our customers are going to love sliding the steering wheel forward to go faster!"
MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 14:55
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Grace141 wrote:
I keep thinking that if true logic ruled the day with automobiles we'd all be driving Camrys.

Maybe this is just another of those generational things and someday soon Honda will say "thank goodness the last of those manual shift guys has moved to the rest home! Now we can finally offer HRX SmartDrive on the Civics. Our customers are going to love sliding the steering wheel forward to go faster!"



Hahha HRX Smartdrive... I love it :)
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 15:58
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MarkR wrote:
I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?

Doesn't that belong to the 90s?

Just because your ITR and my ATR,S2K had a 6-speed-manual I don't want Honda to become a dinosaur and be the most old-tech car manufacturer on planet earth.

The industry moved on the double-clutch/fast autos with 7-9gears years ago...do you want Honda to be stuck behind.

I loved the tight 6-spd box in m S2K, but to be honest I cannot shift as quickly as my ZF8 does with paddles.

BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Sorry to say...



They are just more fun. Faster they may not be, but they sure are a hell of a lot more engaging. I would argue that they are even more fun because of all of the electronic protections going on cars these days. "FREDS" as Nick Graves would call them. Some won't let you bounce off the limiter, some change up early, some won't downshift when commanded under certain conditions, some are clunky, unreliable or both.

There is just nothing quite like rowing your own. And yes, while I will admit that the average person is "faster" with a DSG, the reality is that in an environment where outright elapsed time isn't the end all goal (as it is in racing) the extra speed doesn't make much of a difference. It isn't like there are miles and miles of difference here.

Honestly, it is a lot like airplanes. The super-automated airplanes are nice for cruising, but sometimes you just want to fly the thing and have nothing but you and the airplane. My favorite airplanes barely has any avionics on it, and the G-meter to radio ratio is 2:1. No autopilot, no glass cockpit, etc. But it makes me smile like you wouldn't believe.

IMO, cars are the same way. I can get out of something like a bone stock Miata and have a much larger grin on my face than say some high powered RWD car that requires tons of electronics to keep itself on the road. I would be more inclined to buy a BRZ than a GTR for that reason. But it is a personal preference.

Besides, in 10 to 20 years MT's will become vintage and nostalgic and people will want them because they are more fun and add an element of control that their super-auto electron mobile won't have. Some MT models are already seeing an uptick in sales.

xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 16:07
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Hondatalover wrote:
I have been struggling with this as well. Everyone loves to row their own 6 speeds, and everyone loves a easy to drive-in the city car.

Problem with rowing your own is that your not as fast as these new DCT's, and you have to do more work in the city. Problem with these automatics is that they give you little or no control over what you do with the gears. But they do well for easy, comfortable driving.

So what can we do? Honda and some other manufactures have made a nice automatic that gave you decent control over the gears with a shift gate, but it was only in a 5 speed. After that Honda switched straight over to paddles ON THE WHEEL and to me that's not ideal at all.

Could we invent a Automatic shifting, Manual biased DCT/ DSG? "What the hell did you just say?"

No really.. it would work like a regular Auto, but the control is all on you for the most part. The only thing you wont have is a clutch to press. Just row the gears like you would in a manual. It can have a full Auto mode where it will do all the shifting for you, or it could be fully manual-mated(Manual Automatic). All while shifting as fast as a DCT/ DSG.

It's like TipTronic, but with actual gates for each gear and multiple neutral points.

Basically is a DCT/DSG with a shift gate mimicking a Manual transmissions with a extra gate off of 6th gear, labeled 'A'/ 'D' for Auto/ Drive mode. That mode is designed/ programmed to work the best at keeping the MPG up and to have a relaxing, comfortable drive. I'm sure there could be more to be said here but I don't build design transmissions. I have thought about it but being that Honda is switching over to ZF's Auto's by 2015-2016 I see no big deal in it, let someone else do it.



The red lines show the path in which you can slid the lever through. You can also just follow the black lines but the red path is there for quicker throws.

It's all just an idea.. don't hate too much. lol



I was thinking of something like this once...but I think it would be a mess for enthusiasts who love their true manual transmission. Interesting concept nevertheless!
wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 20:59
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I own fortunate to own a few Hondas and Acuras, many of them with five or six speed manuals. I'm sure there are automobiles out there that can shift quicker with new technology - auto/manual clutches but I doubt those vehicles are more enjoyable to drive. I have never had any of my cars on a race track and shaving off tenths of a second with an automatic transmission does not concern me in any way.
wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 21:18
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sorry for the typo - beer....
Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 21:26
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It not that big of a mess, they can still get the pleasure of rowing their gears and having full control over the quick shifts. They just don't have to use the extra peddle. I kept the overall design of the gates like a manual transmission so they can use it more like one. Its just something new. I'd rather have this over the buttons on the shifter (ford) and the paddles on the wheel (everyone). Till then, shift gates and manuals are fine with me.
s2ktaxi
Profile for s2ktaxi
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 21:39
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I think people like the sense of accomplishment when mastering something that is not inherently easy and especially if not everyone can do it. Going back in time, would we find joy in:
1) manually cranking an engine to start?
2) shifting without a clutch and using non-synchromeshed gears?
3) turning the steering wheel without power steering?
4) manually pumping the brake pedal for anti-lock braking?
5) manually resetting the turn signals
6) manually cranking the windshield wiper or even the windows for that matter

Imagine needing to manually brake each wheel or apply power to individual driven wheels for stability control at the limit (or beyond).

I know of Porsche 911 fans who enjoy having the skill to drive the older 911 at the limit and taming that rear end. Imagine where Porsche would be if the modern day 911 had the same handling traits that required a lot of skill to drive...

I think as much as we'd like to hang on to being able to practice or repeat some of the skills we've strived to learn and master, technology moves on...

That said, while most of my cars have been Honda 5 or 6 speed manuals, I wouldn't mind having a Honda DSG for my next car (while keeping at least the S2000 :))
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 01:24
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Wow, and here I thought people were bitching about the new 911 GT3 not offering a manual. I don't see an issue for a proper 6MT being offered particularly in cars under $50K, as long as the automatic continually evolves. Honda is already doing this to an extent with the manual/CVT option in the new Accords... and with the Accord Plugin Hybrid, there's technically no transmission at all.

@Hondatalover: I think that was the best trolling on the forums in recent days!
BLK
Profile for BLK
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 01:42
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I think it's getting common knowledge that many modern semi-automatic transmissions are faster than manuals and even more fuel efficient. Even then, downshifting with your finger will never match the satisfaction of getting the perfect heel-and-toe, regardless of how much time you lose with the manual. With that sensation lingering with enthusiasts, it's difficult to completely do away with it.

The F1 manual existed until about 2 decades ago (if I recall correctly). Recent F1 transmissions have always been sequential semi-automatics.
Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 01:45
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CarPhreakD wrote:


@Hondatalover: I think that was the best trolling on the forums in recent days!



Explain? I don't even realize I do.. what ever it is. I'm the only teen in my generation that doesn't know about trolling. haha.
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 04:33
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The so called advantages in shift times of DCTs are nothing but a mask to sell customers something to brag and feel good about!

Manufacturers market this to sell at a better profit level as it allows customers to hide the not so pleasant truth.
This always has a greater perceived value.

Fact is new car buyers are getting older.
They are fatter, less agile, have joint illnesses... and thanks to electron-nannys (smart phones, computer games...) and restricting traffic rules; generally less skilled at driving.

How do you make money traditionally as a luxury car manufacturer?
By adding more power/speed, more features and then selling by allowing buyers to feel as having something better than others.

Its always been like this.

Today Porsche is a SUV company, no need to really cater for drivers, race versions like GT3 are halo cars for the brand, marketing exercises to support making huge profits on upgraded VWs/Audis.

Why do VW, Ford etc jump in with shitty cheap versions of DCT?

To sell them to the many GTI drivers, allowing them to get some of that feeling.

Like cheap botox people will feel better even if they have egg on their face.
It doesn't matter that mainstream DCTs can't launch a car comfortably or ultra aggressively. Or that most have such a sensor overloaded computer brain which randomly adds hiccups to not destroy some cheap parts; Performance race track parts which have been reverse engineered and made cheap to allow cheaper mainstream applications.

So yeah DCT in NSX and hardcore CTR - but not in SI, TSX etc.

Good MT or a smooth auto transmission only - consequent design no pussy crap. Something I give Honda credit for.

DCT with hybrid may change my point of view, but till then DCT in performance cars only.
The Legend
Profile for The Legend
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 05:08
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MarkR wrote:


BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Sorry to say...



Formula 1 cars have moved on to paddles... single clutch only.

Dual clutch is illegal.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 06:08
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RolledaNsx wrote:
But Porsche is saying that seven speed manual will be their last manual.Every year less people are buying the manuel option so Porsche don't see spending the money on that option when they design the next gen 911/boxster.

It sounds like future manual's may be an endangered species over at Porsche.
bigblue
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Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 16:37
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bigblue wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?
[...]
BTW, are F1 racing cars still doing 6-spd manuals?(or paddles?)

Because some people find it fun/enjoyable to shift by hand, and maybe double de-clutch on downshifts themselves (there's even now a manual that blips on a downshift for you, saw a video that mentioned it on some car the other other day, think it's the Porsche Cayman ?).

F1 is 7-speed seamless-shift (paddles).



Here's the video showing automatic blip on a downshift manual gearbox, it was evo's look at the Porsche Cayman S. Pretty weird idea to me, if you want a manual I would have thought you'd want to do it all yourself. Forward to about 1:56 if you just want to see the bit about the gearbox.



By the way, the 7-speed Porsche manual in the 911 seems to be a manual-ised version of the dual clutch 'box and doesn't seem to be liked much in reviews as the 6-speed in the Cayman. Here's a quote from autocar that raises some interesting points :
The seven-speed manual is more of a technical than practical success. Perhaps the clue is in the fact that Porsche has seen fit to display the gear you are in at the centre of the instrument console; with seven gears to choose from you can both find yourself struggling to be confident with shifts and losing track of what gear you are in. Whisper it, but on a fast twisting road the slick shifting PDK is actually more fun, as its easier to snatch a gear on the corner exit or change down at the last moment, as well as delivering better fuel economy and emissions whatever the conditions.
Hawkstrike
Profile for Hawkstrike
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 17:49
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Saw a stat the other day -- wish I could remember where -- that a significant majority of Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ sales in the US were equipped with the manual transmission.
jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 18:14
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Hawkstrike wrote:
Saw a stat the other day -- wish I could remember where -- that a significant majority of Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ sales in the US were equipped with the manual transmission.

This gives a closer hint on take rates, at the time
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/shifting-trends-is-the-manual-transmission-doomed.html

Interesting to note: the CR-Z has a 40% take rate.
The FR-S, out the gate, was a more average 50% (for a sporty car), though the lower volume BRZ is closer to 70%.


For another fun fact, one not in that article, the BMW 5 series of this generation (F10), suffers a 6% manual take rate. Yet, BMW still offers the V8 with a 6 speed manual. Guts all other automakers do not have, in any sense, whatsoever.
Fan Koni
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Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 18:48
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Another rant why autos degenerate ;-)

It's for your own good, I assure you. You simply must give up automatic transmissions. Look at it this way. Tell a ballerina to dance on one foot. Try to operate a bicycle using only one peddle. Do your morning exercises without using your left leg. What will be the result? Inelegance, inefficiency and incapacity, not to mention eventual indolence and creeping meatballism. I am perfectly serious.

Operating the accelerator and brake with your right foot while engaging the clutch with your left is in keeping with the harmonies of nature. It provides your body with balanced physical activity. People with automatic transmissions risk spinal disorders, hip degeneration, joint disease and other serious maladies. Let's face it we spend a lot of time in our cars. A good left foot is a terrible thing to waste!

Some folks believe that they lack the physical coordination to operate three peddles in their automobiles. This is balderdash. If you can walk, run, dance or climb stairs, you can drive a manual transmission car. If you crawl around on all fours; sit out the Blue Danube waltz and only use escalators, perhaps you shouldn't be driving at all. Every physical activity requires some practice to master, but operating the clutch peddle with your left foot can become second nature after two weeks of practice. Wouldn't it be worth it to improve your own health; to be free from the tyranny of the torque converter; to be able to consider purchasing some genuinely interesting automobiles?

When you drive amanual transmission automobile you develop a unity with the machine you are operating. You find yourself aware of the engine's torque curve as you unconsciously match optimum rpm with road conditions. Your car is operating more efficiently and economically. More sporting performance is completely under your control. By the way, while the process of selecting the proper gear becomes almost unconscious, it is a very important subliminal mental exercise. By shifting for yourself youare actually fighting the onslaught of Alzheimer's.

Some poor benighted folks have told me that they need to have automatic transmission because they drive alot in stop and go traffic. This is asad misconception. If you travel in heavy traffic you need manual transmission all the more. This is not merely because the inherent inefficiencies of the torque converter are multiplied under bumper-to-bumper conditions.It is precisely in a traffic jam that you need to exercise both your left and right legmuscles so as not to develop cramps resulting in irritability and consequent road rage. Furthermore, have you ever thought that when a manual transmission driver is stopped in traffic on a level road she can rest both legs, while the automatic transmission driver must keep his right foot on the brake to avoid creep!

Why have car manufacturers been pushing automatics for decades? Believe me it isn't for your good, Mr. or Ms. Consumer. First of all the automatic is either an option or an "included extra" which allows the manufacturer to bump up the sales price and the profit margin. With economies of scale it does not now cost a car builder more to make an automatic than a quality manual transmission. Furthermore, the automatic transmission is the weakest link in the automotive drive train. The automatic will invariable fail long before the engine, suspension or bodywork of a contemporary vehicle are fully used up. Thus the automatic drives the customer back to the dealer either for costly service or for a new vehicle. In either event when you look down on your automatic shift gate and see P,think "profit" not yours... theirs.

Some manufacturers contend that their well-engineered automatics are capable of delivering more brisk acceleration that the average driver is capable of exacting from a manual transmission unit. If this represents an accurate statistic, the answer is to educate the average driver on the relationship between power and torque and on the means to be used to optimize both. If "little Johnny" has trouble with his arithmetic, the remedy is not togive him a calculator.

By the way, even if someday in the distant future the engineering udepartment of a mighty car manufacturer will succeed in building an automatic transmission that will be able to walk away from my 5-speed Cosworth-head Mercedes 16-Valve at the stop light grand prix, I will still opt for the manual. The reason has something todo with a beautiful concept; a fleeting, indefinable quality; a gift from God to man ... I call it FREEDOM. I want to choose my own cog. Iwant to snick that lever into secondjust before the hairpin and hear the engine growl. I want to upshift as I crest the rise and see the ribbon of tarmac stretching tothe distant horizon. I want to knowthe complex sensations that make life worth living. I want to shift for myself!

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?741738-An-interesting-case-against-manual-transmission

FiSH-Chan
Profile for FiSH-Chan
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 21:12
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Fan Koni wrote:
Some poor benighted folks have told me that they need to have automatic transmission because they drive alot in stop and go traffic. This is asad misconception. If you travel in heavy traffic you need manual transmission all the more. This is not merely because the inherent inefficiencies of the torque converter are multiplied under bumper-to-bumper conditions.It is precisely in a traffic jam that you need to exercise both your left and right legmuscles so as not to develop cramps resulting in irritability and consequent road rage. Furthermore, have you ever thought that when a manual transmission driver is stopped in traffic on a level road she can rest both legs, while the automatic transmission driver must keep his right foot on the brake to avoid creep!


While I mostly agree with the positives of a manual, I don't really agree above. When you're going to be mostly stuck in heavy traffic everyday for 365 days, and I don't know what your 'heavy traffic' means but what I mean it's pretty bad, with people constantly cutting into your lane and stop-go uphill, then automatic is a lot better experience. It is no surprise why most people get automatics for this reason?

And even though my wife is fine with choosing and driving a manual car, she gets bad cramps in her legs in extra long jams, such as during roadblocks or accidents, never gets a cramp with the automatic. If you're the one who could drive a manual for 365 days in such conditions, then good for you. I could do that, but the drive would not be as relaxing as needed in such conditions, exactly what could cause road rage.

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 21:29
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MarkR wrote:
I know, high risk of making people irritated but what is this craze with '6-speed-manual'?

Doesn't that belong to the 90s?


Two main reasons for me:
+ I think it is fun to physically row my own gears and choose the ratio I want for the situation at hand. Paddles may be faster, but they don't offer a mechanical connection to the gearbox.

+ Manual transmissions are generally mechanically more simple and reliable than their automatic counterparts.

In recent years, I've only owned the '5-speed-manual' found in pedestrian Honda Accords. I have driven the 6MT in the new Accord Sport though, and it is much better than the 5MT I have now. There is just a real feeling of mechanical strength, precision, and directness in the 6MT that is difficult to express with words. I appreciate those subjective qualities very much... much more so than a couple tenths of a second advantage that a DCT might provide.
FiSH-Chan
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Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 21:44
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Fan Koni wrote:Some folks believe that they lack the physical coordination to operate three peddles in their automobiles. This is balderdash.


Btw, I believe that some people really do lack this type of coordination. I know of people who took driving lessons and fail it more than 10x. (Until recently learning to drive a manual is required). Then there is this schoolteacher who start her car to warm it up while standing outside but because she left it in 1st gear and crush herself in between the pillar of their house and the car door. RIP. Although to be fair that was freak accident and she came back from a long holiday probably forgot she left it in 1st. But then again don't you check for neutral first before starting? I once saw a car right next to me roll back into the behind it because it stalled on the uphill.

Some of you might hate this statement but from how some people I see they are better off driving autoamtics.. there is always some things are probably better for others.

I am not advocating automatics, but I just writing about the other side of the story....


jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 22:14
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FiSH-Chan wrote:
Fan Koni wrote:
Some poor benighted folks have told me that they need to have automatic transmission because they drive alot in stop and go traffic. This is asad misconception. If you travel in heavy traffic you need manual transmission all the more. This is not merely because the inherent inefficiencies of the torque converter are multiplied under bumper-to-bumper conditions.It is precisely in a traffic jam that you need to exercise both your left and right legmuscles so as not to develop cramps resulting in irritability and consequent road rage. Furthermore, have you ever thought that when a manual transmission driver is stopped in traffic on a level road she can rest both legs, while the automatic transmission driver must keep his right foot on the brake to avoid creep!


While I mostly agree with the positives of a manual, I don't really agree above. When you're going to be mostly stuck in heavy traffic everyday for 365 days, and I don't know what your 'heavy traffic' means but what I mean it's pretty bad, with people constantly cutting into your lane and stop-go uphill, then automatic is a lot better experience. It is no surprise why most people get automatics for this reason?

And even though my wife is fine with choosing and driving a manual car, she gets bad cramps in her legs in extra long jams, such as during roadblocks or accidents, never gets a cramp with the automatic. If you're the one who could drive a manual for 365 days in such conditions, then good for you. I could do that, but the drive would not be as relaxing as needed in such conditions, exactly what could cause road rage.



Not to mention, some features showing up in cars at lower and lower pricepoints:

Auto hold brakes: tap on the brakes for a second, let off, and the car will apply brake pressure until the accelerator is pressed.

Full speed auto cruise control: I think the cheapest car with this is the Subaru Legacy, so the system cost is moving downward.

Both of these generally are geared towards automatics, and either one makes stop-and-go traffic nicer to deal with.
DCR
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Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 23:16
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I don't understand the issue with a manual in "heavy traffic".

My hybrid, in heavy traffic, is me mashing the brake, gas, brake, gas, brake, gas.

I actually had a smoother experience in my Si, because I could use gearing to offset the brakes.

Total bullshit excuse...the truth of the matter is that people are lazy and throwing it into "D" and mashing a middle pedal is easier.
FiSH-Chan
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Re: 6-speed-manual    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 23:30
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DCR wrote:
Total bullshit excuse...the truth of the matter is that people are lazy and throwing it into "D" and mashing a middle pedal is easier.


That is exactly it. If you need to be going 1st, brake, neutral, wait, 1st, 2nd, brake neutral, wait, 1st, 2nd, then brake, because someone cut in front, then as you are going back to 1st, someone cut into front again, all in just over 15-20meters distance, it might be fine to you but most people will be irritated. It's like talking and other people talking interrupting every few seconds.

In this case, the automatic is when you are just sitting and watching someone interuppting someone else talk and you are finding it funny. Well not a very good example..but what i can come up with.
 
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