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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring

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SAR305
Profile for SAR305
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 09:34
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superchg2 wrote:
computernerd wrote:

The Accord V6 is a dinosaur anyway. Itís clear that Americans will go kicking and screaming into a more fuel efficient future, but go they will.


With the newly available 6 speed automatic and VCM allowing 3 cylinder operation, calling the Accord V6 a dinosaur seems a little bit much. 3 and 4 cylinders may be the engines of the future for sedans, but for right now the more powerful V-6 Accord seems to be a pretty efficient option.




Hey, weren't you the guy who (hilariously!)zinged me for double posting?

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1128720&page_number=3&
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 11:35
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Clearly you don't have much gas left in the tank there SAR305. The gist of your post, as you root about for a retort, is, "are all manuals created equal?"

The short answer is, that when it comes to power transmission, they are exceptionally close.

Just because you don't comprehend how gears transmit power doesn't mean that they don't do so in a predictable and understandable way.

The source of power loss in a manual transmission is very, very small. Each gear you transmit through will lose up to about 1% power (at any given time most transmissions are routing power through the chosen gear and the final drive gear). You've got some bearing drag and hydrodynamic losses which are also in the 2-3% range. There isn't much room for improvement in losses. Even if you invented a completely lossless transmission, you'd only increase the power reaching the wheels by about 4-5%. And no one has done so. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a loss reduction of 1% of transmitted power between any modern manual. Which, of course, is far less than the difference in power output suggested by the 6MT to 6MT trap speed comparison we've already done.

And furthermore, the trap speed comparison is insensitive to gearing choices. That's why we use it! Otherwise, I'd point you back to our first drive review of the Accord Sport 6MT where I stated that the gearing on that transmission is poorly chosen with overly big gaps between 2nd and 3rd gear. Not that I really need any more support for my position....

SC

SAR305 wrote:


Are you suggesting that all manuals, with regards to extracting usable power from an engine, are created equal? Anyone?

"There's no place to be "that good".":

"The driver moves the lever from gear to gear"

"Outside of choosing the specific gear and final drive ratios"

"Once the clutch engages"

Get it straight.



SAR305
Profile for SAR305
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 12:58
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notyper wrote:
Clearly you don't have much gas left in the tank there SAR305. The gist of your post, as you root about for a retort, is, "are all manuals created equal?"

The short answer is, that when it comes to power transmission, they are exceptionally close.

Just because you don't comprehend how gears transmit power doesn't mean that they don't do so in a predictable and understandable way.

The source of power loss in a manual transmission is very, very small. Each gear you transmit through will lose up to about 1% power (at any given time most transmissions are routing power through the chosen gear and the final drive gear). You've got some bearing drag and hydrodynamic losses which are also in the 2-3% range. There isn't much room for improvement in losses. Even if you invented a completely lossless transmission, you'd only increase the power reaching the wheels by about 4-5%. And no one has done so. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a loss reduction of 1% of transmitted power between any modern manual. Which, of course, is far less than the difference in power output suggested by the 6MT to 6MT trap speed comparison we've already done.

And furthermore, the trap speed comparison is insensitive to gearing choices. That's why we use it! Otherwise, I'd point you back to our first drive review of the Accord Sport 6MT where I stated that the gearing on that transmission is poorly chosen with overly big gaps between 2nd and 3rd gear. Not that I really need any more support for my position....

SC

SAR305 wrote:


Are you suggesting that all manuals, with regards to extracting usable power from an engine, are created equal? Anyone?

"There's no place to be "that good".":

"The driver moves the lever from gear to gear"

"Outside of choosing the specific gear and final drive ratios"

"Once the clutch engages"

Get it straight.






Comprehension? Understanding and predictability? Silly person, mine wasn't supposed to be a tutorial on how transmissions function. Rather, an assertion that different transmissions(including their differing degrees of USER-friendliness) can and do make differences in these HUMAN-conducted tests. Speaking of tutorials, spare us. It impresses no one. The internet...we're on it. Anyone, anywhere, and on any topic, can offer up a tutorial at any time. Wit, on the other hand...

"far less than the difference in power output suggested by the 6MT to 6MT trap speed comparison we've already done"-

Surely you're not referring to the Mazda 6MT vs. Accord 6MT, are you? Did you read my posts, specifically my comments regarding Honda's 4 cylinder? We're NOW talking about the SAME ENGINE, but compared with different manual transmissions; one good(the unit currently in the accord), and one hypothetical not-so-good MT. And not whether the Accord's triumphs over the 6 are attributable to its transmission as opposed to the power of its engine. Phew. You're becoming quite the burden.

"There isn't much room for improvement in losses."- Inspiring. With engineers like you...well...let's just be thankful for the Japanese.

The gist: Better transmissions(paired with the SAME ENGINE) will bring better times(by the drivers who DRIVE them). Start rooting.











Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 13:27
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SAR305 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:

What I'd like to see, and what some other posters here want to see, is the actual score card of each vehicle tested.

For instance, they complained about the fabric seats. Well, talk a bit more about the cloth/fabric seats on the Mazda 6 then. My enquiring mind would like to know too.

Another example, yes, the Mazda 6 is very enjoyable to drive. Now, please explain about the objective numbers. Why is the Accord the best in the skidpad? Why does the Accord stop the quickest? Why is the Accord the fastest in the figure 8 test? The article simply says, "the Mazdaís objective results placed at or near the top." Yea, true, but that same sentence can be said about the Accord too. All the article says is that the Accord numbers "give it the at-the-limit edge."

Nobody here is saying the Accord better than the Mazda 6. We simply just want the article to be more detailed.


1) The "score card" is already another magazine's gig.

2) First, it was too much information("the accord seats..."). Now, it's too little information(the mazda seats?)...make up your mind. MT has.

3) Really, is this an editorial gripe? Or is it, which is what I fully suspect, that your car "lost". And now you're demanding, to a level of detail that MT found totally unnecessary(though I would've welcomed their thoughts on Mazda's cloth seats), that said folks explain(justify) their preference for the 6 over the Accord?...just so you(and others) may deconstruct their methodology into irrelevancy. Well, MT wasn't having it. And neither am I.

4) No, instead they're saying the 6 ISN'T "better" than the Accord. Tomato. Toe-ma-toe...






1.) C/D uses one. C/R uses one. R/T uses a very detailed comparison chart too.

2.) I didn't say it was too much info. I want MORE info.

3.) MT can have whatever preference they want. But as I and others have pointed out repeatedly, if you were to praise one car in certain objective areas, why not dot he same for the other competitor(s)?

4.) Some think the 6 isn't better than the Accord. Some others think the 6 IS better than the Accord. Simple as that. Let's face it, both are top family sedans in the market. If you want a better driver's car, go with the 6. I have no problem with that. Again, it's the way the article written that has raised questions. Nothing against the 6. I repeat, the Accord, Mazda 6, and Fusion IMO are the top dogs in the segment. You pretty much won't go wrong with any of them.
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 13:31
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Huh? This is pretty clear, no?


0-30 2.9 2.5
0-40 4.2 3.9
0-50 5.7 5.5
0-60 7.6 7.4
0-70 9.8 9.9
0-80 12.6 12.7
0-90 15.9 16.3
0-100 19.9 - ó
PASSING, 45-65 MPH 3.7 3.9
1/4 MILE 15.9s@89.8 mph 15.7s@88.6mph

One car wins 5 of the above, the other wins the other 5.



SAR305
Profile for SAR305
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 13:52
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Hondarulez wrote:
SAR305 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:

What I'd like to see, and what some other posters here want to see, is the actual score card of each vehicle tested.

For instance, they complained about the fabric seats. Well, talk a bit more about the cloth/fabric seats on the Mazda 6 then. My enquiring mind would like to know too.

Another example, yes, the Mazda 6 is very enjoyable to drive. Now, please explain about the objective numbers. Why is the Accord the best in the skidpad? Why does the Accord stop the quickest? Why is the Accord the fastest in the figure 8 test? The article simply says, "the Mazdaís objective results placed at or near the top." Yea, true, but that same sentence can be said about the Accord too. All the article says is that the Accord numbers "give it the at-the-limit edge."

Nobody here is saying the Accord better than the Mazda 6. We simply just want the article to be more detailed.


1) The "score card" is already another magazine's gig.

2) First, it was too much information("the accord seats..."). Now, it's too little information(the mazda seats?)...make up your mind. MT has.

3) Really, is this an editorial gripe? Or is it, which is what I fully suspect, that your car "lost". And now you're demanding, to a level of detail that MT found totally unnecessary(though I would've welcomed their thoughts on Mazda's cloth seats), that said folks explain(justify) their preference for the 6 over the Accord?...just so you(and others) may deconstruct their methodology into irrelevancy. Well, MT wasn't having it. And neither am I.

4) No, instead they're saying the 6 ISN'T "better" than the Accord. Tomato. Toe-ma-toe...






1.) C/D uses one. C/R uses one. R/T uses a very detailed comparison chart too.

2.) I didn't say it was too much info. I want MORE info.

3.) MT can have whatever preference they want. But as I and others have pointed out repeatedly, if you were to praise one car in certain objective areas, why not dot he same for the other competitor(s)?

4.) Some think the 6 isn't better than the Accord. Some others think the 6 IS better than the Accord. Simple as that. Let's face it, both are top family sedans in the market. If you want a better driver's car, go with the 6. I have no problem with that. Again, it's the way the article written that has raised questions. Nothing against the 6. I repeat, the Accord, Mazda 6, and Fusion IMO are the top dogs in the segment. You pretty much won't go wrong with any of them.



1) And MT doesn't. Why? Maybe they don't wish to place too much emphasis on numbers that are dependent on fallible humans. Instead, they choose language. Works for me.

2) "then why talk about the fabric seats of the Accord, as well as the overall layout of the Accord?" -That's you, talking "too much information".

3) Narrative...heard of it? If it's pure Honda praise you are craving, then read THAT review. I'm sure MT has one, conspiracy be damned.

4) Agreed. Can't go wrong with either. And those 0-whatever comparisons will have zero influence on my purchase decision.



notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 14:09
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You're hopeless SAR305. Power transmission through mesh gears is not some black art. There is no specialness in Honda transmissions that allows them to put more power to road (and specialness is in how they _feel_ which is irrelevant to me). A difference in shift throw of mere millimeters does not create enormous differences in trap speed. Conversely, neither is the Honda CVT particularly poor at putting power to the road. The engineers simply don't allow the driver to maximize off-the-line performance by limiting throttle, brake torquing and commanded engine torque. This is what I'm talking about here. OEM control of transmission performance characteristics, not mystical differences in power transmission losses hypothesized by someone who knows nothing of the mechanics or physics in play. (Hint - if you're only losing 5% through a transmission, there isn't much room for improvement because you're only a few % away from perfection in the first place - unless you think it is possible to output more power than you input....)

Now, I'm done with you and you're done here. Darken my door again at your own risk.

SC
BachelorFrog
Profile for BachelorFrog
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 14:21
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IIRC, Nissan's CVT doesn't let you go WOT under 40mph.
SAR305
Profile for SAR305
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 15:02
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notyper wrote:
You're hopeless SAR305. Power transmission through mesh gears is not some black art. There is no specialness in Honda transmissions that allows them to put more power to road (and specialness is in how they _feel_ which is irrelevant to me). A difference in shift throw of mere millimeters does not create enormous differences in trap speed. Conversely, neither is the Honda CVT particularly poor at putting power to the road. The engineers simply don't allow the driver to maximize off-the-line performance by limiting throttle, brake torquing and commanded engine torque. This is what I'm talking about here. OEM control of transmission performance characteristics, not mystical differences in power transmission losses hypothesized by someone who knows nothing of the mechanics or physics in play. (Hint - if you're only losing 5% through a transmission, there isn't much room for improvement because you're only a few % away from perfection in the first place - unless you think it is possible to output more power than you input....)

Now, I'm done with you and you're done here. Darken my door again at your own risk.

SC




Read again. The only one hypothesizing about mystical differences in transmission power losses, purely, is you.

Pay attention: INTERFACE efficiency of MAN to machine affects performance. Period. Whether we're talking about how fast one can extract a bottle of Dr. Pepper from a soda machine by way of a dollar bill, changing the radio station, or yes, rowing through 5 gears, interface matters. How seamlessly man meets machine affects performance, speed, especially when the deltas are measured in tenths of a second or less. "Feel". That's what I'M talking about here. You know, that which is "irrelevant". Again, INTERFACE...learn it.

BA, Mathematics and Physics. Not "nothing".

Darken your door? Heavy. And also kind of embarrassing.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 16:17
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OMG! The SAR is toast!




DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 16:45
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SAR305 wrote:
Read again. The only one hypothesizing about mystical differences in transmission power losses, purely, is you.

Pay attention: INTERFACE efficiency of MAN to machine affects performance. Period. Whether we're talking about how fast one can extract a bottle of Dr. Pepper from a soda machine by way of a dollar bill, changing the radio station, or yes, rowing through 5 gears, interface matters. How seamlessly man meets machine affects performance, speed, especially when the deltas are measured in tenths of a second or less. "Feel". That's what I'M talking about here. You know, that which is "irrelevant". Again, INTERFACE...learn it.

BA, Mathematics and Physics. Not "nothing".

Darken your door? Heavy. And also kind of embarrassing.



We aren't designing software interfaces here, and you cannot equate feel to increased performance in the manner you are attempting to.

Mechanical characteristics of a manual transmission is what you feel when rowing, and what feels better to you may not feel better to me, and I may be able to destroy your shifting ability on a transmission that "feels" worse.

You are not using the correct term, as you can clearly see how subjective it is.


NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 17:39
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I'm always amazed how quickly some like to step to the front of the queue.
superchg2 wrote:
OMG! The SAR is toast!

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 18:17
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SAR305 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:
SAR305 wrote:
Hondarulez wrote:

What I'd like to see, and what some other posters here want to see, is the actual score card of each vehicle tested.

For instance, they complained about the fabric seats. Well, talk a bit more about the cloth/fabric seats on the Mazda 6 then. My enquiring mind would like to know too.

Another example, yes, the Mazda 6 is very enjoyable to drive. Now, please explain about the objective numbers. Why is the Accord the best in the skidpad? Why does the Accord stop the quickest? Why is the Accord the fastest in the figure 8 test? The article simply says, "the Mazdaís objective results placed at or near the top." Yea, true, but that same sentence can be said about the Accord too. All the article says is that the Accord numbers "give it the at-the-limit edge."

Nobody here is saying the Accord better than the Mazda 6. We simply just want the article to be more detailed.


1) The "score card" is already another magazine's gig.

2) First, it was too much information("the accord seats..."). Now, it's too little information(the mazda seats?)...make up your mind. MT has.

3) Really, is this an editorial gripe? Or is it, which is what I fully suspect, that your car "lost". And now you're demanding, to a level of detail that MT found totally unnecessary(though I would've welcomed their thoughts on Mazda's cloth seats), that said folks explain(justify) their preference for the 6 over the Accord?...just so you(and others) may deconstruct their methodology into irrelevancy. Well, MT wasn't having it. And neither am I.

4) No, instead they're saying the 6 ISN'T "better" than the Accord. Tomato. Toe-ma-toe...






1.) C/D uses one. C/R uses one. R/T uses a very detailed comparison chart too.

2.) I didn't say it was too much info. I want MORE info.

3.) MT can have whatever preference they want. But as I and others have pointed out repeatedly, if you were to praise one car in certain objective areas, why not dot he same for the other competitor(s)?

4.) Some think the 6 isn't better than the Accord. Some others think the 6 IS better than the Accord. Simple as that. Let's face it, both are top family sedans in the market. If you want a better driver's car, go with the 6. I have no problem with that. Again, it's the way the article written that has raised questions. Nothing against the 6. I repeat, the Accord, Mazda 6, and Fusion IMO are the top dogs in the segment. You pretty much won't go wrong with any of them.



1) And MT doesn't. Why? Maybe they don't wish to place too much emphasis on numbers that are dependent on fallible humans. Instead, they choose language. Works for me.

2) "then why talk about the fabric seats of the Accord, as well as the overall layout of the Accord?" -That's you, talking "too much information".

3) Narrative...heard of it? If it's pure Honda praise you are craving, then read THAT review. I'm sure MT has one, conspiracy be damned.

4) Agreed. Can't go wrong with either. And those 0-whatever comparisons will have zero influence on my purchase decision.






1.) Yet, in the article, MT cleared talked about their so called "score card" when they start talking about the Mazda 6. Why talk about score card when their focus is language?

2.) Hmm, I didn't say that was too much info buddy. It's the opposite. If they talk about the fabric seats in the Accord, well, talk about the fabric seats in the Mazda6 too. Simple as that. Oh my bad, they can't. The Mazda6 has leather seats.

3.) I'd just like more consistency in their writing.

Looking at the numbers, the 6 gets off the line quicker, but the Accord is as strong, if not stronger for passing. Still, we aren't talking about big differences here. Also the objective handling numbers, yea, the Accord can stop faster, it can pull more g's, it can lap the figure 8 faster, but again, not big differences. The main advantage seems to be driving feel. The 6 is particularly good at it. The Accord isn't far behind though according to the article. Since the main focus of MT is driving feel, the 6 is the obvious winner. IMO, since we are talking about daily mid-size FWD family sedans, things such as roominess, features, safety, braking distance, reliability, these factors are all important. That's why some of us are questioning the MT article. That's not to say the Mazda 6 is a poor family sedan, far from it.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 19:20
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:


computernerd wrote:
I
The Accord V6 is a dinosaur anyway.



Is the Accord V6 a dinosaur? Every single evaluation of the engine has shown it being extremely powerful (low 14's and mid 5's in the Accord), the DYNO has proven it be significantly powerful, and outside of the BMW N20 engine, it has destroyed every competitor turbocharged 4-cylinder engine in both performance AND real world fuel economy.


The J block is nearing 20 years of production now, although where the the J engines as a whole are concerned, I think it's unlikely that the heads of the current J-engines look much like the ones from the mid-90's. I also doubt that pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, and other parts have stayed the same.

Even if the J is a "dinosaur", I don't think it matters. It delivers excellent performance, good fuel economy, and a nice sound. No need to throw it out if it still works well.



The engine certainly has changed a lot since then, particularly when it comes to cylinder head design (which matters the most when it comes to power production and characteristics). Still, it would be nice if we could have a proper DOHC design, but as you said, it's a hell of an engine.
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 19:24
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
SAR305 wrote:
notyper wrote:
Clearly you don't have much gas left in the tank there SAR305. The gist of your post, as you root about for a retort, is, "are all manuals created equal?"

The short answer is, that when it comes to power transmission, they are exceptionally close.

Just because you don't comprehend how gears transmit power doesn't mean that they don't do so in a predictable and understandable way.

The source of power loss in a manual transmission is very, very small. Each gear you transmit through will lose up to about 1% power (at any given time most transmissions are routing power through the chosen gear and the final drive gear). You've got some bearing drag and hydrodynamic losses which are also in the 2-3% range. There isn't much room for improvement in losses. Even if you invented a completely lossless transmission, you'd only increase the power reaching the wheels by about 4-5%. And no one has done so. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a loss reduction of 1% of transmitted power between any modern manual. Which, of course, is far less than the difference in power output suggested by the 6MT to 6MT trap speed comparison we've already done.

And furthermore, the trap speed comparison is insensitive to gearing choices. That's why we use it! Otherwise, I'd point you back to our first drive review of the Accord Sport 6MT where I stated that the gearing on that transmission is poorly chosen with overly big gaps between 2nd and 3rd gear. Not that I really need any more support for my position....

SC

SAR305 wrote:


Are you suggesting that all manuals, with regards to extracting usable power from an engine, are created equal? Anyone?

"There's no place to be "that good".":

"The driver moves the lever from gear to gear"

"Outside of choosing the specific gear and final drive ratios"

"Once the clutch engages"

Get it straight.






Speaking of tutorials, spare us. It impresses no one.




Shawn's tutorials always impress me.

I think you're getting two things confused here. A sloppy shifter and clutch may hinder a 0-60 test but just because of that doesn't mean the transmission itself is any less efficient or putting any less power to the wheels. If you were to somehow mate a Honda shifter and clutch to most any other manufacturer's engine and transmission it would probably improve the driving feel but wouldn't let any more or less power ultimately make it to the wheels.
TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 20:52
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CarPhreakD wrote:
atomiclightbulb wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:


computernerd wrote:
I
The Accord V6 is a dinosaur anyway.



Is the Accord V6 a dinosaur? Every single evaluation of the engine has shown it being extremely powerful (low 14's and mid 5's in the Accord), the DYNO has proven it be significantly powerful, and outside of the BMW N20 engine, it has destroyed every competitor turbocharged 4-cylinder engine in both performance AND real world fuel economy.


The J block is nearing 20 years of production now, although where the the J engines as a whole are concerned, I think it's unlikely that the heads of the current J-engines look much like the ones from the mid-90's. I also doubt that pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, and other parts have stayed the same.

Even if the J is a "dinosaur", I don't think it matters. It delivers excellent performance, good fuel economy, and a nice sound. No need to throw it out if it still works well.



The engine certainly has changed a lot since then, particularly when it comes to cylinder head design (which matters the most when it comes to power production and characteristics). Still, it would be nice if we could have a proper DOHC design, but as you said, it's a hell of an engine.



The J is awesome! But computernerd is correct...don't y'all know the next Accord will have an electric turbo four?!?! :-)
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 21:53
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computernerd wrote:
It was nice to see Motor Trends comparo this morning. In my opinion Motor Trend (MT) is the least objective of the major magazines out there. I think they are the most influenced by whoever buys advertising in their magazine and some of their reviews are just strange. I think Car and Driver (C&D) is far more objective and a much better magazine overall. Iím looking forward to reading C&Ds comparo in the June issue. In the meantime, I do think that MT got this one right. I did my own comparo a little while ago http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1128720 and MTís conclusion pretty much matched up with mine. I do want to address two things that have formed the bulk of the on-topic discussion in this thread: (1) engine power (2) the Accord V6.

With regard to engine power, the result is as expected and I donít think the CVT in the Accord is responsible for it being whooped off the line, the Mazdaís superior low-end torque is. The comparison comes down to this: the Mazda has more displacement and a significantly higher compression ratio which should translate into superior low end torque; the Honda has variable valve lift (VTEC) which should translate into better breathing at higher RPM. I would expect the Mazda to be stronger off the line and then get run down by the Honda. This was the result and it was expected. The fact that the Mazda is faster at all legal speeds also explains why, in my test, I felt that the Mazda engine was just a smidgen more powerful than the Honda even though the Honda has higher peak horsepower. Far from being a liability, I actually think the CVT is responsible for the Hondaís victory in the 45-65 passing test. The CVT shifts (adjust ratios) faster and does a better job of keeping the engine in its optimum power band.

With regard to the Accord V6, the Mazda is a 4-cylinder car and as such it only makes sense to compare it to another 4 cylinder. MT made it clear that the Mazda 6 Touring, whose price is in line with the other cars in the test, would have scored the same and there is no reason to doubt them. The Mazda won because of its dynamic prowess and looks and the Grand Touring has no real advantage in these areas over the Touring. Also, the price of the Mazda 6 Grand Touring is not significantly more than the top-of-the line Honda I4.

The Accord V6 is a dinosaur anyway. Itís clear that Americans will go kicking and screaming into a more fuel efficient future, but go they will. If you understand the new CAFE rules, then you know that the days of a mainstream sedan that gets less than 30 MPG combined on the EPA cycle are numbered. Despite all the nonsense I have read on this site about the V6 being more fuel efficient than the I4, the simple fact is itís not. The V6 gets 25 MPG combined on the EPA cycle and the I4 gets 30 (use these numbers for comparison, your mileage may vary). That sweet V6 exhaust note might as well be the roar of a T-Rex, because it will suffer the same fate. By the 2018 model year, a car the size of the Accord will have to get 30 MPG combined or it will be a liability to the manufacturers CAFE. Most manufacturers will be loath to let a low-margin, mainstream car be a liability to their CAFE, they will save that for expensive, high-margin products. Notice that almost all of the other manufacturers ditched V6ís on their mainstream sedans with their last round of updates. I guarantee you that Honda will dump theirs with the 10th generation. By the end of that modelís run in 2022, a car of that size will need to average about 34 MPG combined. Youíll never make that with anything other than a 4 cylinder (or perhaps even a 3). So flame away, the future of the mainstream family sedan is a 4 cylinder engine (or smaller) and you might as well get used to it. Your children and grandchildren will thank you. Cars like the Mazda 6 and the Accord I4 give me hope that a fuel efficient future doesnít have to be one that is devoid of driving fun.







Outside of biased and politically driven, distorted realities, your claims are completely dubious.

1) I am not sure you are familiar with how CAFE works. It is based on unadjusted MPG results, whereas the window sticker is not. This is important because a small gain in window sticker MPG typically equals a much larger gain in CAFE MPG.

2) It is pretty interesting that you note how much of a "dinosaur" the J series is when it out powers the competitor's turbo fours AND gets better MPG in the real world versus those same engines (and not by an insignificant margin in most cases). It will also prove to be more reliable because it is based on a proven design, and is not under as much mechanical stress. Of course this doesn't even address the increased refinement, improved NVH, etc that the V6 offers over its competitors.

And therein lies the problem with Obama's CAFE mandate. It really does nothing to improve real world MPG (which is why everyone is having to switch to engines that game the EPA test, such as turbo fours), and it is pretty questionable to claim "real world" environmental effects on the back of technology that really doesn't produce.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 22:34
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Shit, I didn't even get to wield the ban-stick. Jeff got to it first. Interesting IP history on that fellow. Very interesting.

SC


Last edited by notyper on 03-13-2013 22:38
DCR
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-13-2013 23:58
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notyper wrote:
Shit, I didn't even get to wield the ban-stick. Jeff got to it first. Interesting IP history on that fellow. Very interesting.

SC



I bet.

Those of us who spend inordinate amounts of time here can sense these things even when they aren't this blatant.

I would place a bet on ping-pong posts in this very thread from the same person, if I was a betting man.
MasterOfDaDomain
Profile for MasterOfDaDomain
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-14-2013 18:22
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It's annoying to have trolls derail the conversations.

Anyhow, all the reviews (including overseas) of Mazda6 has been quite positive. One can't go wrong with either.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-14-2013 18:39
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MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
It's annoying to have trolls derail the conversations.

Anyhow, all the reviews (including overseas) of Mazda6 has been quite positive. One can't go wrong with either.




I dunno, sometimes the trolls are far more entertaining... I mean, the Mazda 6 vs. Accord.... seriously... yawn.

OTOH, this was fun to read... Shawn is no shrinking violet and this guy... I mean, it had "Cruising for a Bruising" written all over it.
bluefz22
Profile for bluefz22
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-15-2013 11:43
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Hondarulez wrote:
Huh? This is pretty clear, no?


0-30 2.9 2.5
0-40 4.2 3.9
0-50 5.7 5.5
0-60 7.6 7.4
0-70 9.8 9.9
0-80 12.6 12.7
0-90 15.9 16.3
0-100 19.9 - ó
PASSING, 45-65 MPH 3.7 3.9
1/4 MILE 15.9s@89.8 mph 15.7s@88.6mph

One car wins 5 of the above, the other wins the other 5.





Gimmee the Accord,$6000,and higher resale value. The Accord is down on CCs,up on weight,faster on the track,other than the launch,and runs a faster trap speed. Impressed with this new Accord ED 2.4.
superchg2
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-15-2013 21:49
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DCR wrote:
notyper wrote:
Shit, I didn't even get to wield the ban-stick. Jeff got to it first. Interesting IP history on that fellow. Very interesting.

SC



I bet.

Those of us who spend inordinate amounts of time here can sense these things even when they aren't this blatant.

I would place a bet on ping-pong posts in this very thread from the same person, if I was a betting man.


You may be on to something there DCR, since
computernerd seems to have taken a powder, as well.

A77
Profile for A77
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 12:26
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just a thought - couldn't the Accord better high speed performance be influenced by aerodynamic factors...the Mazda nose looks more draggy than the rounded smaller Accord face. manufacturers don't usually quote CDs or CDa's these days as its so contentious.
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-16-2013 16:03
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Well that's possible, but the data suggest otherwise.

First, the Accord CVT is clawing back time even at lower speeds, so it wouldn't just be aero.

Second, the 6MT is so much faster that the Mazda would have to have about 20-25% higher drag numbers, which is highly unlikely in this day and age.

Third, you probably already know, but looks can be deceiving on aero.

SC
Power Of Dreams
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 00:03
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0.2 seconds won't make a world of difference to me, and I'd like to see the numbers from the Mazda6 dyno as well. I guess it would come down to personal preference assuming one isn't interested in resale value and such.

Though 179 horsepower is an amazing number from the Accord and definitely nothing to scoff at.
dj
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 07:13
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I do agree with you and the various comment expressed before you....I'm in the market for a mid-sized sedan as a addition to the household and after looking @ Accord,Altima,Camry,Fusion,Legacy,Mazda6.Optima,
Passat and Sonata...I set a purchase cap of about 26k or less to see how they compared..IMHO

The Accord Sport is a great car and indeed drives different from the other 4cyl members of the Accord family and offers real value..CVT makes it feel quicker than most of the competion..Also it is the 1st yr for this CVT offering and I am still a bit hesitant of it. My 1st choice is a 6sp manual but is only offered in 2 color choices neither I would buy. (Honda if you are listening please add some more color choices/equiptment to make it truly a stand-out).

After driving a few new Mazda 6's Touring/GT I find it to fit my preferences a bit better..19in wheels standard..I had already planned a wheel/tire upgrade..now only need to change by choice. It has great upscale stying and excellent fit/finish and is built in Japan..
It also Handles and rides great even with 19's..You can get a 6sp manual in both Sport/Touring models with 6 different color choices and 2 interior color choices/textures. As for price the Touring model is about $300.00 more than the Accord Sport but with blind-spot monitoring on both sides..and better fuel economy as tested.

About the Altima...I drove both 4/6 and was considering a 3.5 S model..list price about 26k but with current incentives 4-5000.00 off..This is the true performance bargain..It is as fast as a Accord V6 sedan..handles slightly better and is over 5000.00 less to start with. Indeed cheap speed.

The Toyota Camry SE 4/6..that V6 is quick but that interior just lets You down wishing for something a bit nicer. The 4cyl SE is a Bargain and with current incentives can be had for less than 20k.

VW Passat 5cyl/TDI/V6..good content for the price. I found the conservative styling and rear seat room appealing. 5cyl seemed slow to respond..TDI quicker than expected and great fuel economy and very strong resale value..That V6 is very quick but pricey.

Subaru Legacy..AWD! Kinda..slow unless you get a 3.6 model.and just ok economy..

The Koreans..Hyundai Sonata/Kia Optima..great cars stuffed with value and more standard equiptment for a lower price...I found that 2.4/2.0T both are decent powertrains but the 2.0T just shines. There are deals to be had on both cars 3-4000+discounts..But I already own 1 ('11 Sonata 2.0T Ltd):) and as of now have no desire to replace it.:)

Ford Fusion..what a let down Excellent,classy design on exterior but the interior sub-par unless you step-up to Titanium trim over 31k. The 1.6T seems a bit slow but the 2.0T is far more responsive..but those pesky recalls

Good Luck with your shopping everyone..
superchg2
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-17-2013 07:52
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Good run down of the usual suspects, dj!
Hondarulez
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2013 13:03
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How come the Altima has such crazy incentives?
JDMImport
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Re: 2013 Honda Accord Sport vs. Toyota Camry SE vs. 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-18-2013 13:46
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Hondarulez wrote:
How come the Altima has such crazy incentives?


Maybe on left-over 2012's, but there is only a $500 rebate or $1,000 from what I was able to find. Most are paying in the $22K-$23K range for the Altima S in my area.
 
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