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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos

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P54
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Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 15:46
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Honda Adds High Performance, Low Emission, Small Diesel Engine to the Civic line-up

"The key focus of our Earth Dreams Technology philosophy is to balance environmental efficiency with the dynamic performance expected of a Honda," says Suehiro Hasshi, Large Project Leader for all Civic models in Europe including the 1.6-litre i-DTEC."It is important that our cars are fun to drive."

"This is a new approach from the ground up," Tetsuya Miyake, Project Leader for the 1.6-litre i-DTEC engine. "There were no benchmarks for us because those targets would have been too low. We were determined to establish a benchmark of our own that our competitors would have to follow."

"Developing this engine has been all about smart, pure engineering," says Suehiro Hasshi. "Our motivation has been to make many small detail improvements that, together, make a major difference. That is the challenge and the beauty of the Earth Dreams Technology philosophy."


http://www.hondanews.eu/en/news/index.pmode/modul,detail,0,2552-DEFAULT,21,text,1/index.pmode


Honda1
Profile for Honda1
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 16:44
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If the engine is so clever, is there a chance we will see it in the US?
xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 17:50
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I would love to see this in the US Civic and CR-V.
BachelorFrog
Profile for BachelorFrog
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 18:05
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Honda1 wrote:
If the engine is so clever, is there a chance we will see it in the US?

Probably not. American Honda is run by tree-suckers..
P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 18:40
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BachelorFrog wrote:
Honda1 wrote:
If the engine is so clever, is there a chance we will see it in the US?

Probably not. American Honda is run by tree-suckers..




Now, there is a remedy for tree-suckers....:

1: Tree sucker control:
It is better to try to prevent a tree sucker rather than having to deal with tree sucker removal.

2: Tree sucker remove or let grow?
While you might be tempted to leave a tree sucker, remove them as quickly as possible.

3:Tree sucker removal
Tree sucker removal is easy to do. Using a sharp...



Shamrock89
Profile for Shamrock89
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2012 19:51
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Please let there be a way to bring the Diesel to the U.S. They teases us years ago with a diesel Accord. A diesel Civic and CRV would be great, imagine a CRV that gets 38-40 mpg. it's what so many people want
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 13:28
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Shamrock89 wrote:
Please let there be a way to bring the Diesel to the U.S. They teases us years ago with a diesel Accord. A diesel Civic and CRV would be great, imagine a CRV that gets 38-40 mpg. it's what so many people want


No, it's not, and that's why it's probably not coming here. Don't forget that diesels carry a premium over regular petrol engines; on top of that, the Europeans are more concerned with CO2 than actual smog emissions so many diesels don't even meet NA emissions requirements.
Restless
Profile for Restless
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 14:58
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Shamrock89 wrote:
Please let there be a way to bring the Diesel to the U.S. They teases us years ago with a diesel Accord. A diesel Civic and CRV would be great, imagine a CRV that gets 38-40 mpg. it's what so many people want


No, it's not, and that's why it's probably not coming here. Don't forget that diesels carry a premium over regular petrol engines; on top of that, the Europeans are more concerned with CO2 than actual smog emissions so many diesels don't even meet NA emissions requirements.

Are you saying that VW, BMW, MB can make diesels which meet NA emissions requirements, but Honda cannot?
P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 15:37
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Restless wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Shamrock89 wrote:
Please let there be a way to bring the Diesel to the U.S. They teases us years ago with a diesel Accord. A diesel Civic and CRV would be great, imagine a CRV that gets 38-40 mpg. it's what so many people want


No, it's not, and that's why it's probably not coming here. Don't forget that diesels carry a premium over regular petrol engines; on top of that, the Europeans are more concerned with CO2 than actual smog emissions so many diesels don't even meet NA emissions requirements.

Are you saying that VW, BMW, MB can make diesels which meet NA emissions requirements, but Honda cannot?



^
Bold + Urea

Are people buying Honda willing to pay the extra?


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 20:31
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Restless wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Shamrock89 wrote:
Please let there be a way to bring the Diesel to the U.S. They teases us years ago with a diesel Accord. A diesel Civic and CRV would be great, imagine a CRV that gets 38-40 mpg. it's what so many people want


No, it's not, and that's why it's probably not coming here. Don't forget that diesels carry a premium over regular petrol engines; on top of that, the Europeans are more concerned with CO2 than actual smog emissions so many diesels don't even meet NA emissions requirements.

Are you saying that VW, BMW, MB can make diesels which meet NA emissions requirements, but Honda cannot?



Honda's 1.6L might be able to simply on virtue of it being a small displacement engine, but their 2.2 liter certainly cannot, and when 2016 emissions regulations come into play, you can bet that even the bankrupt European 2.0 I4s and 3.0 V6s will have trouble without urea injection and a host of other emissions control equipment (by the way, urea injection adds almost $700 to the cost of every vehicle).

And if Honda brings the 1.6L here, what's the point? The marketshare of diesel engines in NA is 1/4 that of diesel engines, and Honda is making a concerted push for hybrid tech in every region except the EU.
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 20:42
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Not enough HP for a CR-V. Only 120 would get you killed trying to merge into highway traffic.

Probably adequate for a Civic, and fine for a Fit.

xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
I would love to see this in the US Civic and CR-V.

P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 21:47
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typer_801 wrote:
Not enough HP for a CR-V. Only 120 would get you killed trying to merge into highway traffic.

Probably adequate for a Civic, and fine for a Fit.

xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
I would love to see this in the US Civic and CR-V.




The diesel will be fitted in the European CR-V 2 WD.
typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2012 22:34
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Let me clarify....for the United States. Europe gets the teeny, tiny engines with no HP, many of which are NEVER offered here in the states, because NO ONE would buy them.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 11:04
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78.5 mpg (imp) combined? In a what? Implies over 85mpg highway which seems unlikely...
shingles
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Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 18:51
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HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...
Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 19:54
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If Honda paired the 1.6 with the I-DCD hybrid system and put it into a CR-V and Accord that could be a game changer.

Extreme HWY mileage, smooth city drives and still loads of torque for "merging".


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-20-2012 00:03
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shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...



Nope, this is incorrect. This is oversimplifying, but horsepower is responsible for actual acceleration and movement of the car, it's a multiple of engine torque X rpm.

Diesels have really high torque ratings but very low power ratings, which should tell you that at low RPMs, diesels produce a lot of average power, but at some point in the rev range a petrol engine will match and then exceed the diesel's power output. Complicating this is the torque multiplication through gearing: because petrol engines are designed to rev higher and faster, they can take advantage of shorter gearing to be much faster in acceleration. Diesels actually need taller gearing because they have such small powerbands and don't really rev very much.

My point is that the horsepower rating is still very important in a car.

If we are talking about a car with 150hp+, then I would normally say the diesel has the advantage in day to day driving. But at 120ps, I would say that the Europeans can keep it to themselves. The K24 in the current CR-V might be a bit weaker in the lower bit of the rev band (probably the first 1-2K rpm past idle), but 120 ps won't be enough to get the CR-V to merge onto a freeway..
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-20-2012 00:34
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shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.
JP
Profile for JP
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-20-2012 01:10
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owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...
Restless
Profile for Restless
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-20-2012 02:47
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JP wrote:
owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...

True.
yet for a normal car (say Passat, Accord), the air darg force at 180km/h is ~ 90-100hp.
And it rises faster above 120-130km/h. So 40hp drag force is near the normal speed limit.
at lower speed, drag force is very small.
A FWD CR-V with this engine should be able to make 0-100 in 10-11sec
JP
Profile for JP
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 13:52
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Restless wrote:
JP wrote:
owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...

True.
yet for a normal car (say Passat, Accord), the air darg force at 180km/h is ~ 90-100hp.
And it rises faster above 120-130km/h. So 40hp drag force is near the normal speed limit.
at lower speed, drag force is very small.
A FWD CR-V with this engine should be able to make 0-100 in 10-11sec





Power to beat dragforce is in function of Speed^3. That is why it makes it difficult over 120k/h...

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 22:43
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JP wrote:
owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...



Torque is "how fast that power can be delivered"? In what part of the torque/moment equation and unit is there a time variable? In other words, how is "lb. ft." or "Nm" related in any way to time, and therefore how "fast" power can be delivered? It has nothing to do with it! Horsepower is how much work you can do over time, in other words how "fast you can deliver torque"!

Your other statement is also weird. The torque is not "how fast" the engine delivers engine rpm. The engine's horsepower curve is a derivative of its torque curve, not the other way around. Multiply the torque curve X engine rpm / [550 lb.ft. / (2pi/60)].

An engine's torque curve is what defines the engine's horsepower- a lot of torque early in the rev band would also mean more power at low rpms; but engines of this design usually have rapidly falling torque at higher rpms, meaning they actually have less power at high rpms (hence peak power happens at lower torque). That's how diesels work, and that's why petrol engines usually produce more power even while having less peak torque and why they have faster acceleration times.
JP
Profile for JP
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 00:26
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CarPhreakD wrote:
JP wrote:
owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...



Torque is "how fast that power can be delivered"? In what part of the torque/moment equation and unit is there a time variable? In other words, how is "lb. ft." or "Nm" related in any way to time, and therefore how "fast" power can be delivered? It has nothing to do with it! Horsepower is how much work you can do over time, in other words how "fast you can deliver torque"!

Your other statement is also weird. The torque is not "how fast" the engine delivers engine rpm. The engine's horsepower curve is a derivative of its torque curve, not the other way around. Multiply the torque curve X engine rpm / [550 lb.ft. / (2pi/60)].

An engine's torque curve is what defines the engine's horsepower- a lot of torque early in the rev band would also mean more power at low rpms; but engines of this design usually have rapidly falling torque at higher rpms, meaning they actually have less power at high rpms (hence peak power happens at lower torque). That's how diesels work, and that's why petrol engines usually produce more power even while having less peak torque and why they have faster acceleration times.



Torque is just that, how fast the angular speed changes against time or angular acceleration X moment of Inertia.

Power is defined by torque, I know, but also by angular speed (or angular velocity, if we are using vectors).

Torque is how fast that energy is delivered, no matter if it is just a few or a lot.

In the top end rpms of an engine, even with low torque, dragforce is beaten by power (which not only depends upon torque, but rotational speed as well), but it is just that, depends on HP (not torque only, but torque X rotational speed).
Restless
Profile for Restless
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 03:12
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I'm not an engine expert, but I thought "big torque at low rpm" is due to turbo?
An SDI engine has 100-120Nm top torque at ~2000RPM, many NA gasoline engines have similar torque.

On topic - many claim "big torque at low rpm" makes accelerating "easier", no need for downshifting.
And if we compare diesel&gasoline engines with same HP... take in account weight, usually diesels are 50-100kg heavier, hence a bit slower 0-100, but they are way faster when doing 60-100 or 80-120 on high gear. Due to plenty torque available immediately, which translates into more POWER available earlier.
mobis21
Profile for mobis21
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 09:08
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Interesting how in India, Honda will de-stroke it to 1.5 liters. And in the tiny BRIO, it should be good performance and incredible mileage.

I'd like to see the 1.6 in a CR-Z.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 20:29
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Restless wrote:
I'm not an engine expert, but I thought "big torque at low rpm" is due to turbo?
An SDI engine has 100-120Nm top torque at ~2000RPM, many NA gasoline engines have similar torque.

On topic - many claim "big torque at low rpm" makes accelerating "easier", no need for downshifting.
And if we compare diesel&gasoline engines with same HP... take in account weight, usually diesels are 50-100kg heavier, hence a bit slower 0-100, but they are way faster when doing 60-100 or 80-120 on high gear. Due to plenty torque available immediately, which translates into more POWER available earlier.



Your second point is correct, but that is still dependent on gearing. On your first point, high compression diesel engines are all like that- they have large amount of low end torque but it falls off rapidly... very rarely would you see a diesel engine with anything higher than 4.5K redline. High compression turbo engines are often similar, but keep in mind it's dependent on turbo "sizing"... some turbos don't produce enough boost until later in the rev range, whereas others are sized for low end RPM (usually what the Germans do).

Right now we're actually seeing a convergence in turbocharged diesel and petrol engines, with similar engine block designs and other components; on top of that, turbopetrol engines are increasing in compression ratio while turbodiesels are decreasing, so they're increasingly similar in character.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda 1.6L Diesel: info, pictures and videos    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 20:30
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JP wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
JP wrote:
owequitit wrote:
shingles wrote:
HP this, HP that... that doesn't matter... it's the torque that matters.

You are right, most in the US wouldn't buy it because there's "not enough rated HP". But let's not confuse HP and torque. at 221lb-ft @2000rpm, that's way more torque than the 2.4 in the CRV today. Torque is what moves the car...


You obviously know nothing about how HP and torque relate to each other, the effects of gearing, the importance of gearing vs powerband, power to weight ratio, or any of the other variables that go into performance.



hp is the power, power can do a work over the time, and work can do a force over a distance...

torque is how fast that power can be delivered.

CR-V has a lot more of drag force from air (than a civic), so to move the CR-V across the air that acts like a fluid, you need to have power and 120 ps (118.36 hp) are not quite the best combination you want to have to reach 80mph in a blink entering a ramp in a interstate...

so, those 221 lb-ft are how fast those "Whatever HP" that engine delivers at 2000 rpm are delivered, which might be around 40 hp... aren't that much good in a freeway...

that is why the 140 hp passat in the highway passing times are not that good... even with the torque it has... and is a passat, not CR-V (talking about the drag force from air)...



Torque is "how fast that power can be delivered"? In what part of the torque/moment equation and unit is there a time variable? In other words, how is "lb. ft." or "Nm" related in any way to time, and therefore how "fast" power can be delivered? It has nothing to do with it! Horsepower is how much work you can do over time, in other words how "fast you can deliver torque"!

Your other statement is also weird. The torque is not "how fast" the engine delivers engine rpm. The engine's horsepower curve is a derivative of its torque curve, not the other way around. Multiply the torque curve X engine rpm / [550 lb.ft. / (2pi/60)].

An engine's torque curve is what defines the engine's horsepower- a lot of torque early in the rev band would also mean more power at low rpms; but engines of this design usually have rapidly falling torque at higher rpms, meaning they actually have less power at high rpms (hence peak power happens at lower torque). That's how diesels work, and that's why petrol engines usually produce more power even while having less peak torque and why they have faster acceleration times.



Torque is just that, how fast the angular speed changes against time or angular acceleration X moment of Inertia.

Power is defined by torque, I know, but also by angular speed (or angular velocity, if we are using vectors).

Torque is how fast that energy is delivered, no matter if it is just a few or a lot.

In the top end rpms of an engine, even with low torque, dragforce is beaten by power (which not only depends upon torque, but rotational speed as well), but it is just that, depends on HP (not torque only, but torque X rotational speed).



I think you need to refresh your physics, you've got everything flipped.
 
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