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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: So no info until Nov. 29?

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garoto628
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Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2012 19:44
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DCR wrote:
according2kev wrote:

But it will matter to those considering an automatic coupe.


Sure, and when Honda sells less of the coupe manual, it will be easy to justify not offering a manual at all.





Sure, and when Honda sells less of the coupe manual due to a lack of colors, it will be easy to justify not offering a manual at all.

I added that on bold and italics up there. They're not going to sell enough manuals, I personally do not like black cars because the hairline scratches are way to visible.
DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2012 19:55
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When I saw the 4cyl numbers, I thought that wasn't bad, so I went to run through the configuration tool, and thought it was a mistake at first. It is a shame, really, because that may have been a pretty nice option for some people. At the very least, offer the cars in the dizzying array of black, gray and red like the 6MT V6 coupe.
according2kev
Profile for according2kev
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2012 20:05
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DCR wrote:
according2kev wrote:

But it will matter to those considering an automatic coupe.


Sure, and when Honda sells less of the coupe manual, it will be easy to justify not offering a manual at all.





I wouldn't be surprised if that's the plan.
garoto628
Profile for garoto628
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2012 20:30
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Do corporations really genuinely think that their customers are idiots?
Waldo
Profile for Waldo
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-21-2012 12:00
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Some of us are forgetting that Honda (and most other manufacturers) don't want to sell MT cars. They use more fuel and pollute the air more. The EPA and other nation's agencies believe this, and that's all that matters. Selling MT's lowers the all important CAFE numbers.

Honda doesn't want to lose MT buyers as customers, but they really can't afford to keep them in large numbers. This has become a weaning process. In a few years there will be no MT's available from most mainstream manufacturers.

Your governments have dictated this. Complain to your elected officials. They don't read TOV.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-21-2012 12:51
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...and here we go again. Might as well lock this one down now.
TXsalesguy
Profile for TXsalesguy
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 11:14
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JP wrote:
TXsalesguy wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Looks like Honda really stepped up.......As I posted before, the DX will be dropped, the LX will be the value leader with all the new Accord stuff, Back up camera in every model, bluetooth revised interior, new hood, head lights/grill and tail lights and some other mods, but the seats, dash and over all quality of the inside has gone from 3 to a 9 on the 1-10 scale..........Looks like Honda really stepped up this time and did it right.......


Andrew, Just saw the color chart for 2013 Civics on Honda Interactive, the DX is still around. Looks like it will only be available in Polished Metal.

Other changes, Cool Mist is gone, replaced by Kona Coffee Metallic. White Orchid Pearl will replace Taffeta White on EXL Sedans. Black interiors will be available on all trim levels of sedans and coupes outside the DX. Stone interior is gone.

This is just for the DX through EXL line up. No info on Hybrids or the Si as of yet.




Anything on ED powertrain upgrade?



Just the color chart on Honda Interactive Network. For the longest time the Civic wasn't listed on the 2013 color chart, it popped up the other day. That is all I have to go on, a buddy and I are gleaning what info we have at our hands every day. The pocket guide that gives all kind of specifics is delayed to us because they haven't released the Civic info yet. We can see an online version of the other cars, but still no info on Crosstour or Civic for us.

And yes, DX in Polished Metal only. The HF last year was only two colors, Polished Metal and Taffeta White, this year Kona Coffee Metallic will be added. The 2013 manual sedans are only in two colors, Alabaster Silver and Modern Steel in LX, Crystal Black and Modern Steel in Sport and EX. So, yes, Honda is limiting color options on vehicles that aren't particularly big sellers.
hondadude
Profile for hondadude
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 11:54
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TXsalesguy wrote:
JP wrote:
TXsalesguy wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Looks like Honda really stepped up.......As I posted before, the DX will be dropped, the LX will be the value leader with all the new Accord stuff, Back up camera in every model, bluetooth revised interior, new hood, head lights/grill and tail lights and some other mods, but the seats, dash and over all quality of the inside has gone from 3 to a 9 on the 1-10 scale..........Looks like Honda really stepped up this time and did it right.......


Andrew, Just saw the color chart for 2013 Civics on Honda Interactive, the DX is still around. Looks like it will only be available in Polished Metal.

Other changes, Cool Mist is gone, replaced by Kona Coffee Metallic. White Orchid Pearl will replace Taffeta White on EXL Sedans. Black interiors will be available on all trim levels of sedans and coupes outside the DX. Stone interior is gone.

This is just for the DX through EXL line up. No info on Hybrids or the Si as of yet.




Anything on ED powertrain upgrade?



Just the color chart on Honda Interactive Network. For the longest time the Civic wasn't listed on the 2013 color chart, it popped up the other day. That is all I have to go on, a buddy and I are gleaning what info we have at our hands every day. The pocket guide that gives all kind of specifics is delayed to us because they haven't released the Civic info yet. We can see an online version of the other cars, but still no info on Crosstour or Civic for us.

And yes, DX in Polished Metal only. The HF last year was only two colors, Polished Metal and Taffeta White, this year Kona Coffee Metallic will be added. The 2013 manual sedans are only in two colors, Alabaster Silver and Modern Steel in LX, Crystal Black and Modern Steel in Sport and EX. So, yes, Honda is limiting color options on vehicles that aren't particularly big sellers.



Oh, so the 2013 Civic is also getting a Sport trim level just like the all new 2013 Accord?
bkr
Profile for bkr
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 12:25
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Actually, it is true that Manuals use more fuel - in most cases. But, there are exceptions.

The Mazda CX-5 manual delivers 35 mpg, vs 32 for the auto.
My Passat tDi is EPA rated at 40 highway with an automatic, and 43 with a manual. The Consumer Reports highway test for the Passat returned 51 for the auto. And that meshes perfectly with an observed 54-56 highway mpg on my 6 speed manual.
So a more efficient manual can be done - but it's just no longer the rule...
TXsalesguy
Profile for TXsalesguy
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 16:31
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hondadude wrote:
TXsalesguy wrote:
JP wrote:
TXsalesguy wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Looks like Honda really stepped up.......As I posted before, the DX will be dropped, the LX will be the value leader with all the new Accord stuff, Back up camera in every model, bluetooth revised interior, new hood, head lights/grill and tail lights and some other mods, but the seats, dash and over all quality of the inside has gone from 3 to a 9 on the 1-10 scale..........Looks like Honda really stepped up this time and did it right.......


Andrew, Just saw the color chart for 2013 Civics on Honda Interactive, the DX is still around. Looks like it will only be available in Polished Metal.

Other changes, Cool Mist is gone, replaced by Kona Coffee Metallic. White Orchid Pearl will replace Taffeta White on EXL Sedans. Black interiors will be available on all trim levels of sedans and coupes outside the DX. Stone interior is gone.

This is just for the DX through EXL line up. No info on Hybrids or the Si as of yet.




Anything on ED powertrain upgrade?



Just the color chart on Honda Interactive Network. For the longest time the Civic wasn't listed on the 2013 color chart, it popped up the other day. That is all I have to go on, a buddy and I are gleaning what info we have at our hands every day. The pocket guide that gives all kind of specifics is delayed to us because they haven't released the Civic info yet. We can see an online version of the other cars, but still no info on Crosstour or Civic for us.

And yes, DX in Polished Metal only. The HF last year was only two colors, Polished Metal and Taffeta White, this year Kona Coffee Metallic will be added. The 2013 manual sedans are only in two colors, Alabaster Silver and Modern Steel in LX, Crystal Black and Modern Steel in Sport and EX. So, yes, Honda is limiting color options on vehicles that aren't particularly big sellers.



Oh, so the 2013 Civic is also getting a Sport trim level just like the all new 2013 Accord?



No, I was referring to Accords at that point. Tried to go back and edit when I noticed but had already hit the send button.

Civics will have the same lineup as 2012, DX, LX, HF, EX, EX Nav, EXL, EXL Nav.
auto_enthu
Profile for auto_enthu
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 17:08
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Anybody know if the EPA numbers are going to increase for 2013 civic?
BachelorFrog
Profile for BachelorFrog
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 18:09
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auto_enthu wrote:


Anybody know if the EPA numbers are going to increase for 2013 civic?


gonna be same unless they put new CVT...
xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 22:07
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BachelorFrog wrote:
auto_enthu wrote:


Anybody know if the EPA numbers are going to increase for 2013 civic?


gonna be same unless they put new CVT...


Knowing Honda, they'll find a way to squeeze in random MPGs.
BachelorFrog
Profile for BachelorFrog
Re: 2013 Civic    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2012 22:18
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xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
BachelorFrog wrote:
auto_enthu wrote:


Anybody know if the EPA numbers are going to increase for 2013 civic?


gonna be same unless they put new CVT...


Knowing Honda, they'll find a way to squeeze in random MPGs.


$20 bet, no bump in mpg.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2012 15:33
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xAbSoLuTexZeRo wrote:
BachelorFrog wrote:
auto_enthu wrote:


Anybody know if the EPA numbers are going to increase for 2013 civic?


gonna be same unless they put new CVT...


Knowing Honda, they'll find a way to squeeze in random MPGs.



Tony-wire services: Torrance, 2012- MPG-R... MPG Random

Since real world driving conditions are not tightly controlled as the EPA test, AHM needed to come up with a more realistic MPG number that better reflected the actual MPG that consumers can expect.

As real drivers essentially introduce a RANDOM set of elements into the EPA rating, AHM Marketing came up with the concept of RANDOM Mileage, aka MPG-R.

The calculation is based on a statistically analysis of real world data which is then fitted onto the MPG-EPA on a bell curve shape.

Then, the MPG-R becames the 10% and 90% percentiles.

Per these numbers, the 2013 Civic achieves an MPGR of 25/42.

Soon after AHM released these numbers, Ford, GM and Hyundai measured their cars at the 1% and 99% and then released only the 99% mileage: The 2013 Fusion, Corvette and Sonata are now marketed with 60, 70 and 110 MPGRs, respectively.

The EPA promptly moved to block Ford and Huynday while raising the Corvette to 99 MPGR.

Huyndai replied that it used data from ten old ladies from Pasadena and Ford pointed out that they measured their data from 20000 skiers driving East on the I70 from the Eisenhower Tunnel to West Denver.




A77
Profile for A77
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2012 19:39
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I'd contend that the only reason autos can be more economical is if they are geared significantly higher and on highways only. Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos. Given a similar ratio spread and perfect driving....with a similar number of gears manuals must result in better mileage, as they weigh less and more importantly don't suffer torque converter and other losses...Higher gearing only helps highway mileage, if at all, as there comes a point where too much down shifting on hills and for overtaking means lower gears need to be used too often. The 6 speed auto chevy cruse i rented in australia for instance could only hold 6th on the flattest of surfaces. It's mileage for this, and other reasons, was crap. and I am sure in identical conditions my TSX would have got 20% better.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2012 19:57
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its i mean..
notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2012 20:08
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A77 wrote:
Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos..


These are 99% of the issue IMO.

First of all, yes, the test procedures are highly biased towards automatics. All you have to do is change one regulation and things would even up again or even favor manuals. What is that regulation? Automatics are allowed to undergo their normal shift schedule during emissions testing. They can upshift to 6th gear at 20 mph if that's how they're programmed and the EPA test cycle can't demand otherwise.

Manuals, OTOH, are regulated to a very specific shift schedule regardless of engine size, type or where it is most efficient. No gear skipping is allowed either. This penalizes manual cars to the tune of 2-3 mpg easily, unless the manufacturer tweaks gear ratios and such to minimize the harm (perhaps the reason for the weird gearing in the Accord K24W 6MT?).

The other point is driver variation. And this is part of the reason why the testing bias is in there. Government and bureaucracy, as they grow, do their very best to weed out uncontrolled variables. They hate things that don't fall into neat, easily categorized bins. In particular, the US Federal government has, over the last 10-20 years (at least), become increasing hostile towards individual choice. Government officials, elected or not, simply don't tend to believe that people can take care of themselves and make choices that benefit them. Thus, things like an automatic car become preferable to a manual. Undefeatable stability control is the goal. Not wearing a seatbelt is a fineable offense (I think its dumb to _not_ wear a belt, but its your choice). This is not to say that those persons in high office are making these sort of decisions. Rather, they hold a viewpoint that tends to percolate down and permeate the organization through leading by example, and by the selection of like-thinking persons as subordinates and managers.

SC
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2012 11:19
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notyper wrote:
A77 wrote:
Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos..


These are 99% of the issue IMO.

First of all, yes, the test procedures are highly biased towards automatics. All you have to do is change one regulation and things would even up again or even favor manuals. What is that regulation? Automatics are allowed to undergo their normal shift schedule during emissions testing. They can upshift to 6th gear at 20 mph if that's how they're programmed and the EPA test cycle can't demand otherwise.

Manuals, OTOH, are regulated to a very specific shift schedule regardless of engine size, type or where it is most efficient. No gear skipping is allowed either. This penalizes manual cars to the tune of 2-3 mpg easily, unless the manufacturer tweaks gear ratios and such to minimize the harm (perhaps the reason for the weird gearing in the Accord K24W 6MT?).

The other point is driver variation. And this is part of the reason why the testing bias is in there. Government and bureaucracy, as they grow, do their very best to weed out uncontrolled variables. They hate things that don't fall into neat, easily categorized bins. In particular, the US Federal government has, over the last 10-20 years (at least), become increasing hostile towards individual choice. Government officials, elected or not, simply don't tend to believe that people can take care of themselves and make choices that benefit them. Thus, things like an automatic car become preferable to a manual. Undefeatable stability control is the goal. Not wearing a seatbelt is a fineable offense (I think its dumb to _not_ wear a belt, but its your choice). This is not to say that those persons in high office are making these sort of decisions. Rather, they hold a viewpoint that tends to percolate down and permeate the organization through leading by example, and by the selection of like-thinking persons as subordinates and managers.

SC


You know, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote here. Now, I also believe that:
- Enthusiasts should know the difference in real world between regular automatics and manuals, regardless of whatever EPA says.
- Since there is no way to mandate EPA specific shift points for automatics (just imagine that on a CVT...), what EPA should do is apply the same rules to everyone, and allow automakers to define the ideal shifting patters for their manual trannies as well.

PS: Unfortunately this is not a US-specific problem, same happens in Japan.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2012 14:02
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danielgr wrote:
notyper wrote:
A77 wrote:
Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos..


These are 99% of the issue IMO.

First of all, yes, the test procedures are highly biased towards automatics. All you have to do is change one regulation and things would even up again or even favor manuals. What is that regulation? Automatics are allowed to undergo their normal shift schedule during emissions testing. They can upshift to 6th gear at 20 mph if that's how they're programmed and the EPA test cycle can't demand otherwise.

Manuals, OTOH, are regulated to a very specific shift schedule regardless of engine size, type or where it is most efficient. No gear skipping is allowed either. This penalizes manual cars to the tune of 2-3 mpg easily, unless the manufacturer tweaks gear ratios and such to minimize the harm (perhaps the reason for the weird gearing in the Accord K24W 6MT?).

The other point is driver variation. And this is part of the reason why the testing bias is in there. Government and bureaucracy, as they grow, do their very best to weed out uncontrolled variables. They hate things that don't fall into neat, easily categorized bins. In particular, the US Federal government has, over the last 10-20 years (at least), become increasing hostile towards individual choice. Government officials, elected or not, simply don't tend to believe that people can take care of themselves and make choices that benefit them. Thus, things like an automatic car become preferable to a manual. Undefeatable stability control is the goal. Not wearing a seatbelt is a fineable offense (I think its dumb to _not_ wear a belt, but its your choice). This is not to say that those persons in high office are making these sort of decisions. Rather, they hold a viewpoint that tends to percolate down and permeate the organization through leading by example, and by the selection of like-thinking persons as subordinates and managers.

SC


You know, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote here. Now, I also believe that:
- Enthusiasts should know the difference in real world between regular automatics and manuals, regardless of whatever EPA says.
- Since there is no way to mandate EPA specific shift points for automatics (just imagine that on a CVT...), what EPA should do is apply the same rules to everyone, and allow automakers to define the ideal shifting patters for their manual trannies as well.

PS: Unfortunately this is not a US-specific problem, same happens in Japan.



You see this is a problem...

Somedays I feel like exploring the upper reaches of the tachometer, both with the 6MT and the paddle shifters of the TSX....

Otherdays I feel like watching the mileage gauge and I'll upshift the paddles when the engine reaches 2500rpm.. or I'll do a 2-4-6 pattern with the motor barely going past 2200...

That's why I prefer a bell shape distribution.. drive it like the CHP is after you or drive it like the IPD is following you... then you take the distribution and post the 10% and 90% points.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2012 14:08
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TonyE wrote:
danielgr wrote:
notyper wrote:
A77 wrote:
Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos..


These are 99% of the issue IMO.

First of all, yes, the test procedures are highly biased towards automatics. All you have to do is change one regulation and things would even up again or even favor manuals. What is that regulation? Automatics are allowed to undergo their normal shift schedule during emissions testing. They can upshift to 6th gear at 20 mph if that's how they're programmed and the EPA test cycle can't demand otherwise.

Manuals, OTOH, are regulated to a very specific shift schedule regardless of engine size, type or where it is most efficient. No gear skipping is allowed either. This penalizes manual cars to the tune of 2-3 mpg easily, unless the manufacturer tweaks gear ratios and such to minimize the harm (perhaps the reason for the weird gearing in the Accord K24W 6MT?).

The other point is driver variation. And this is part of the reason why the testing bias is in there. Government and bureaucracy, as they grow, do their very best to weed out uncontrolled variables. They hate things that don't fall into neat, easily categorized bins. In particular, the US Federal government has, over the last 10-20 years (at least), become increasing hostile towards individual choice. Government officials, elected or not, simply don't tend to believe that people can take care of themselves and make choices that benefit them. Thus, things like an automatic car become preferable to a manual. Undefeatable stability control is the goal. Not wearing a seatbelt is a fineable offense (I think its dumb to _not_ wear a belt, but its your choice). This is not to say that those persons in high office are making these sort of decisions. Rather, they hold a viewpoint that tends to percolate down and permeate the organization through leading by example, and by the selection of like-thinking persons as subordinates and managers.

SC


You know, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote here. Now, I also believe that:
- Enthusiasts should know the difference in real world between regular automatics and manuals, regardless of whatever EPA says.
- Since there is no way to mandate EPA specific shift points for automatics (just imagine that on a CVT...), what EPA should do is apply the same rules to everyone, and allow automakers to define the ideal shifting patters for their manual trannies as well.

PS: Unfortunately this is not a US-specific problem, same happens in Japan.



You see this is a problem...

Somedays I feel like exploring the upper reaches of the tachometer, both with the 6MT and the paddle shifters of the TSX....

Otherdays I feel like watching the mileage gauge and I'll upshift the paddles when the engine reaches 2500rpm.. or I'll do a 2-4-6 pattern with the motor barely going past 2200...

That's why I prefer a bell shape distribution.. drive it like the CHP is after you or drive it like the IPD is following you... then you take the distribution and post the 10% and 90% points.



I should add that the acceleration times should also be posted..

as in

10: 15mpg, 0-60, 5.7 secs, 0-100, 12 secs, top speed 120mph, tank range 300 miles
90: 30mpg, 0-60, 14 secs, 0-100, -, top speed 65mph, tank range 600 miles

It could be shortened to a few comparable numbers.

10: 15, 5.7, 12, 120, 300
90: 30, 14, -, 65, 600

The manufacturers can shift as they wish.

This would remove all shenanigans because it would provide a complete set of performance parameters.


danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-27-2012 04:18
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TonyE wrote:
danielgr wrote:
notyper wrote:
A77 wrote:
Otherwise it's official test configurations being biased in favour of autos. Of course manuals' mileage are far more subject to driver variation than autos..


These are 99% of the issue IMO.

First of all, yes, the test procedures are highly biased towards automatics. All you have to do is change one regulation and things would even up again or even favor manuals. What is that regulation? Automatics are allowed to undergo their normal shift schedule during emissions testing. They can upshift to 6th gear at 20 mph if that's how they're programmed and the EPA test cycle can't demand otherwise.

Manuals, OTOH, are regulated to a very specific shift schedule regardless of engine size, type or where it is most efficient. No gear skipping is allowed either. This penalizes manual cars to the tune of 2-3 mpg easily, unless the manufacturer tweaks gear ratios and such to minimize the harm (perhaps the reason for the weird gearing in the Accord K24W 6MT?).

The other point is driver variation. And this is part of the reason why the testing bias is in there. Government and bureaucracy, as they grow, do their very best to weed out uncontrolled variables. They hate things that don't fall into neat, easily categorized bins. In particular, the US Federal government has, over the last 10-20 years (at least), become increasing hostile towards individual choice. Government officials, elected or not, simply don't tend to believe that people can take care of themselves and make choices that benefit them. Thus, things like an automatic car become preferable to a manual. Undefeatable stability control is the goal. Not wearing a seatbelt is a fineable offense (I think its dumb to _not_ wear a belt, but its your choice). This is not to say that those persons in high office are making these sort of decisions. Rather, they hold a viewpoint that tends to percolate down and permeate the organization through leading by example, and by the selection of like-thinking persons as subordinates and managers.

SC


You know, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote here. Now, I also believe that:
- Enthusiasts should know the difference in real world between regular automatics and manuals, regardless of whatever EPA says.
- Since there is no way to mandate EPA specific shift points for automatics (just imagine that on a CVT...), what EPA should do is apply the same rules to everyone, and allow automakers to define the ideal shifting patters for their manual trannies as well.

PS: Unfortunately this is not a US-specific problem, same happens in Japan.



You see this is a problem...

Somedays I feel like exploring the upper reaches of the tachometer, both with the 6MT and the paddle shifters of the TSX....

Otherdays I feel like watching the mileage gauge and I'll upshift the paddles when the engine reaches 2500rpm.. or I'll do a 2-4-6 pattern with the motor barely going past 2200...

That's why I prefer a bell shape distribution.. drive it like the CHP is after you or drive it like the IPD is following you... then you take the distribution and post the 10% and 90% points.

Personally, I love your MPGr idea ! an engineer's dream !

However, I can't help but noticing that the vast majority of people both inside and outside the US don't have a clue of what is a bell curve...
They already have a tough time understanding that EPA figures are not intended to represent their actual mileage...

Actually, I believe that is also part of the problem. The dynamometer cycles are supposed to be a tool "for comparison purposes only", yet people keep pretending it should match their personal experiences. Where the standard fails though is when it starts comparing different stuff according different procedures and mixing them all together:
- Automatic cars free to change gears as they wish
- Manual cars with forced changing points.
- Hybrids with a charged electric battery, and different battery sizes.
etc.


PS: That's why I love real world FE stats, and why I started TOV's real world FE initiative (though not enough people participate for it to be significant).

- Here is my CR-Z bell curve, as recorded by sprit monitor:


- And here is the bell curve for all CR-Zs in sprit monitor (mainly European driving environement = much worse than USA):
giltibo
Profile for giltibo
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 00:16
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The day Honda stops making MT cars is the day they lose me a s a customer! I W I L L N O T D R I V E A N A U T O M A T I C H O N D A!!!

Right now I drive a 5MT '08 Accord. The same car with an AT is more boring than watching paint dry. An AT Civic is even worse!

R E A L H O N D A S H A V E 3 P E D A L S O N T H E F L O O R.

Might as well remove all badges from all Hondas with ATs (Call them Toyawntas), they're a shame to the brand!
P54
Profile for P54
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 00:59
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giltibo wrote:
The day Honda stops making MT cars is the day they lose me a s a customer! I W I L L N O T D R I V E A N A U T O M A T I C H O N D A!!!

Right now I drive a 5MT '08 Accord. The same car with an AT is more boring than watching paint dry. An AT Civic is even worse!

R E A L H O N D A S H A V E 3 P E D A L S O N T H E F L O O R.

Might as well remove all badges from all Hondas with ATs (Call them Toyawntas), they're a shame to the brand!



Honda still offers MT, however majority of buyers opt for AT. If AT is a shame for the brand then Honda might us well quit making cars. If it is a shame I guess you are insulting more than 90% of the buyers. If Honda stop MT you will be hard pressed to find other makers with MT.

How much more relaxing driving an AT in city, stop and go traffic. On the open HWY when stuck in 5th or 6th what is the big deal with MT? Do you row the gears for fun? Many countries overseas have 50-60mph speed limit. So with a MT you will get there with the 2 first gears, then you have 3-4 more gears to play with. Going speed limit in top gear is running the engine too slow so you have to constantly take it down a gear or two when variations in topography occur. Or when speed limits constantly vary between 25, 30, 40 and 50 mph. AT, for stress-less driving, that is why people choose it.
DCR
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Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 11:32
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You can defend anything, P54. If you aren't a lawyer or a politician, you missed your calling.
A77
Profile for A77
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 12:45
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P54 wrote:
giltibo wrote:
The day Honda stops making MT cars is the day they lose me a s a customer! I W I L L N O T D R I V E A N A U T O M A T I C H O N D A!!!

Right now I drive a 5MT '08 Accord. The same car with an AT is more boring than watching paint dry. An AT Civic is even worse!

R E A L H O N D A S H A V E 3 P E D A L S O N T H E F L O O R.

Might as well remove all badges from all Hondas with ATs (Call them Toyawntas), they're a shame to the brand!



Honda still offers MT, however majority of buyers opt for AT. If AT is a shame for the brand then Honda might us well quit making cars. If it is a shame I guess you are insulting more than 90% of the buyers. If Honda stop MT you will be hard pressed to find other makers with MT.

How much more relaxing driving an AT in city, stop and go traffic. On the open HWY when stuck in 5th or 6th what is the big deal with MT? Do you row the gears for fun? Many countries overseas have 50-60mph speed limit. So with a MT you will get there with the 2 first gears, then you have 3-4 more gears to play with. Going speed limit in top gear is running the engine too slow so you have to constantly take it down a gear or two when variations in topography occur. Or when speed limits constantly vary between 25, 30, 40 and 50 mph. AT, for stress-less driving, that is why people choose it.



What a load of rubbish. Hardly know where to start. 50 mph in sixth is fine and on level ground cruising any auto will remain in its highest gear. Many countries also have higher speed limits than North America. Rowing gears in a Honda is enjoyable. Autos are boring, more expensive to buy, less reliable, less efficient, slower. The only time where autos are preferable is in dense stop go traffic. If the car is powerful enough I don't mind autos but otherwise, no thank you. Especially as Honda make probably the finest manuals on the planet. And that's probably the only area where few people would argue.

P54
Profile for P54
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 16:55
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A77 wrote:
P54 wrote:
giltibo wrote:
The day Honda stops making MT cars is the day they lose me a s a customer! I W I L L N O T D R I V E A N A U T O M A T I C H O N D A!!!

Right now I drive a 5MT '08 Accord. The same car with an AT is more boring than watching paint dry. An AT Civic is even worse!

R E A L H O N D A S H A V E 3 P E D A L S O N T H E F L O O R.

Might as well remove all badges from all Hondas with ATs (Call them Toyawntas), they're a shame to the brand!



Honda still offers MT, however majority of buyers opt for AT. If AT is a shame for the brand then Honda might us well quit making cars. If it is a shame I guess you are insulting more than 90% of the buyers. If Honda stop MT you will be hard pressed to find other makers with MT.

How much more relaxing driving an AT in city, stop and go traffic. On the open HWY when stuck in 5th or 6th what is the big deal with MT? Do you row the gears for fun? Many countries overseas have 50-60mph speed limit. So with a MT you will get there with the 2 first gears, then you have 3-4 more gears to play with. Going speed limit in top gear is running the engine too slow so you have to constantly take it down a gear or two when variations in topography occur. Or when speed limits constantly vary between 25, 30, 40 and 50 mph. AT, for stress-less driving, that is why people choose it.



What a load of rubbish. Hardly know where to start. 50 mph in sixth is fine and on level ground cruising any auto will remain in its highest gear. Many countries also have higher speed limits than North America. Rowing gears in a Honda is enjoyable. Autos are boring, more expensive to buy, less reliable, less efficient, slower. The only time where autos are preferable is in dense stop go traffic. If the car is powerful enough I don't mind autos but otherwise, no thank you. Especially as Honda make probably the finest manuals on the planet. And that's probably the only area where few people would argue.




Is it really? Now tell me the break down on MT versus AT sales.

Check the bold above, I said "when variations in topography occur" and in some countries it does it more frequently than you care for.

You say rowing gears are enjoyable and autos are boring. To a point, yes, however more times than not the traffic is dense and stop and go happens all the time if you live at the right (or wrong) places. Then the constant change of gears and pedal movement becomes more annoying than enjoyable as traffic usually moves along at a speed that is "between the gears".

Nobody argued about the excellent Honda MT and clutch action. But to say a real Honda is only a MT Honda and that an AT Honda is a shame to the brand is what I would call rubbish and a shame to say.

Most people encounter city traffic and stop and go traffic everyday on their commute etc. and AT sales tops the chart for a reason.

Personally though all the Honda's I've owned have been manuals, I have no trouble getting a MT Honda, less cost, less chance of repair and if need repair I can do it myself.

If you have lived in a country where the speed limit in general is 50 mph, however changes from 25 to 30 to 45 and back and forth like that every 1/4, 1/2, 1-2 miles or so you appreciate an AT.


P54
Profile for P54
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 17:32
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DCR wrote:
You can defend anything, P54. If you aren't a lawyer or a politician, you missed your calling.



Most buyers opt for AT for a reason.

It is not about defending anything, however different opinion, coming from a different background. I'm just trying to get across that to say that AT Honda is a shame for the brand is a big s t r e t c h. Without AT how much would Honda sell? Do you want Honda to only make cars for the 10% or less market?



DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 2013 Civic -the notion of the MPGR (Random)    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-30-2012 10:36
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Yes, but only if they offer black as the only color.
xBeastx
Profile for xBeastx
Re: So no info until Nov. 29?    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2012 23:34
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There. I changed the thread title to lead it away from the manual vs automatic argument.

When will Honda release info on the 2013 Civic? Will it be all at once at the auto show, or will there be more spy pics/teaser photos?
 
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