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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good

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P54
Profile for P54
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2012 22:02
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sadlerau wrote:
owequitit wrote:
So wait, they went racing because they don't want to scare the other competitors by winning?


You obviously don't know a lot about racing, do you? The Civic is next year's car, to show it's full capabilities this season would be silly, giving the opposition knowledge of the target they must aim for the following year.

In 20 odd years in motorsport I've always held the belief you don't win by anymore than you have too, as it's nice to have something in reserve :)






I appreciate your input and agree completely with what you are saying. But deaf ears are still deaf ears.

Somethings just never change. I wouldn't waste my time.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2012 23:59
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Don't need much internal changes because the WTTC engine must last the whole season.

They could do the NA K20 but at the time they didn't want to spend the money on a limited production engine to meet the emission standards.Things change now.... the masses has spoken.... we want a high rev "halo" Civic!!!

To meet the power goals(150hp per liter) and keep the engine from 10,000 rpm redline(to make it last),it must be turbo.
But the good side is the torque its going to make.



You misunderstand my point. Odds on that they cheapen the internals, and make other reductions/changes to make it more streetable, and less raceable. Bet money on it.

And frankly, they could do something approximating 150HP per liter (they could easily land between 120-130 with the "old" K20). It might even sell better, and it will be more reliable long term because it won't have the thermal stresses and pressures associated with turbocharging it.

There is a philosophical reason that Honda has always approached NA the way they have. They can be lighter to meet a certain durability metric, which in turn contributes to being able to make them top-end happy. The head flow is such that with relatively minor changes, they COULD get a lot more power out of it without having insurmountable engineering challenges.

And sorry, but there is no merit to the argument that they didn't want to do it for a "limited" run engine, when THIS will be a "limited" run engine.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 00:03
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sadlerau wrote:
owequitit wrote:
So wait, they went racing because they don't want to scare the other competitors by winning?


You obviously don't know a lot about racing, do you? The Civic is next year's car, to show it's full capabilities this season would be silly, giving the opposition knowledge of the target they must aim for the following year.

In 20 odd years in motorsport I've always held the belief you don't win by anymore than you have too, as it's nice to have something in reserve :)



I do know a lot about racing. You race to win. While you always want something in reserve, you also always search for more.

Ferrari didn't get to where it is today by holding back to cheat the marker, and neither did the old Honda. They went in full bore and developed changes on the fly to keep them at the front. That is the purpose of the technological development, and the whole idea of developing people by sending them racing.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 00:06
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owequitit wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
Don't need much internal changes because the WTTC engine must last the whole season.

They could do the NA K20 but at the time they didn't want to spend the money on a limited production engine to meet the emission standards.Things change now.... the masses has spoken.... we want a high rev "halo" Civic!!!

To meet the power goals(150hp per liter) and keep the engine from 10,000 rpm redline(to make it last),it must be turbo.
But the good side is the torque its going to make.



You misunderstand my point. Odds on that they cheapen the internals, and make other reductions/changes to make it more streetable, and less raceable. Bet money on it.

And frankly, they could do something approximating 150HP per liter (they could easily land between 120-130 with the "old" K20). It might even sell better, and it will be more reliable long term because it won't have the thermal stresses and pressures associated with turbocharging it.

There is a philosophical reason that Honda has always approached NA the way they have. They can be lighter to meet a certain durability metric, which in turn contributes to being able to make them top-end happy. The head flow is such that with relatively minor changes, they COULD get a lot more power out of it without having insurmountable engineering challenges.

And sorry, but there is no merit to the argument that they didn't want to do it for a "limited" run engine, when THIS will be a "limited" run engine.



Oh yeah, and affordable to produce. Cast iron manifold, more restrictive intake and exhaust, smaller turbo, lighter pistons and rods, less boost, more conservative tuning, and potentially intake changes are all pretty much guaranteed in the transition from a racing car to a production car.
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 00:54
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owequitit wrote:
I do know a lot about racing. You race to win. While you always want something in reserve, you also always search for more.


This would be true at the start of a new season, BUT the WTCC programme for THIS year was to introduce the cars to their competition for the last three races to see where development was, and to help prepare for NEXT season. To show their full hand now would be counter productive, although the Macau results would certainly be a wake-up call for the opposition. Knowing how much Honda like developing their race engines I'm sure there is a more to come.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 00:54
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You forgot want the goal is!

The Fastest Fwd car on the "ring"!

The 2015 CTR is going to be a street legal race car!

If I take a guess.... it will not have a radio just engine tunes!

And sorry.... it will not be cheap in Europe!

If the rest the World sees it..... it will be more civilized and most likely have the 1.6L DI WTTC engine rather than the 2.0 BTTC engine.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 01:07
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For you johnnyracers

check this out

www.btcctechnical.wordpress.com

breaks down the btcc civic racer
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: WTCC finale at Macau (VIDEO of races 1 & 2)    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 09:03
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P54 wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
I must say I'm really impressed with the pace of the Civic at Macau. RolledaNSX was accurate in his statement that they had been running a conservative set-up and engine mapping, as an interview with Monteiro explained basically the same thing.

Roll on 2013.



Interesting to see how surefooted the FWD cars are and how the RWD BMW's spin out of control.

Civic WTCC finishes 2012 WTCC season finale on the podium

http://www.hondanews.eu/en/news/index.pmode/modul,detail,0,2559-DEFAULT,21,text,1/index.pmode

FIRST PODIUM FOR MONTEIRO AND HONDA

http://www.fiawtcc.com/


In case anyone outside Eurosport coverage area wants to see the races, they can be watched here:

Race1


Race2


Hope that youtube user will keep uploading the races next year.
blackstripe77
Profile for blackstripe77
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2012 10:59
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Didn't get a chance to drop into the Macau GP this year (or watch it on TV) but the Civic got pretty lucky not to get caught in the incident at the start, which I must say was surprisingly free of carnage despite completely blocking the track! (Also great work by the marshals to clear the track before the leaders got around...) Definitely kept up and gave the Chevrolet Cruzes up front a good challenge though! Impressed.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-20-2012 00:09
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owequitit wrote:
I agree.

Take away the tubular manifold, replace it with a cast iron one, put a smaller turbo and probably a large host of other internal changes, and we might have a CTR engine. Of course, then they will have to convince me how Honda was able to get a cast manifold engine with a fat turbo sucking EGT's to meet US emissions standards, but they can't get an NA engine with a tubular manifold to do it because we all know that is pure B.S.



Actually... technically with a turbo it's easier to achieve emissions and fuel economy. Lower revs, WAY MORE EGR flow, better valve timing for emissions control and EGT control.
BachelorFrog
Profile for BachelorFrog
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 13:30
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There is an detailed article in RacecarEngineering magazine about Civic WTCC.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 15:19
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I agree.

Take away the tubular manifold, replace it with a cast iron one, put a smaller turbo and probably a large host of other internal changes, and we might have a CTR engine. Of course, then they will have to convince me how Honda was able to get a cast manifold engine with a fat turbo sucking EGT's to meet US emissions standards, but they can't get an NA engine with a tubular manifold to do it because we all know that is pure B.S.



Actually... technically with a turbo it's easier to achieve emissions and fuel economy. Lower revs, WAY MORE EGR flow, better valve timing for emissions control and EGT control.



Unless you are talking cold start emissions, which require rapid cat light off and are a tenet of CARB emissions standards... There is a very specific reason Honda went away from tubular manifolds, and it all relates to getting that cat hot fast. A turbo is counter productive to that, because it is a large heat sink, which is why on many turbocharged US cars, you find a pre-cat ahead of the turbo.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 17:42
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The fix for cold start emissions

Secondary air intake system
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 22:51
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owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I agree.

Take away the tubular manifold, replace it with a cast iron one, put a smaller turbo and probably a large host of other internal changes, and we might have a CTR engine. Of course, then they will have to convince me how Honda was able to get a cast manifold engine with a fat turbo sucking EGT's to meet US emissions standards, but they can't get an NA engine with a tubular manifold to do it because we all know that is pure B.S.



Actually... technically with a turbo it's easier to achieve emissions and fuel economy. Lower revs, WAY MORE EGR flow, better valve timing for emissions control and EGT control.



Unless you are talking cold start emissions, which require rapid cat light off and are a tenet of CARB emissions standards... There is a very specific reason Honda went away from tubular manifolds, and it all relates to getting that cat hot fast. A turbo is counter productive to that, because it is a large heat sink, which is why on many turbocharged US cars, you find a pre-cat ahead of the turbo.



That depends on the cooling strategy and oil circuit for the turbo. With a proper afterrun system you can get the turbo, oil and coolant temps equalized... which would end up heating up the cat pretty fast.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 23:04
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owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I agree.

Take away the tubular manifold, replace it with a cast iron one, put a smaller turbo and probably a large host of other internal changes, and we might have a CTR engine. Of course, then they will have to convince me how Honda was able to get a cast manifold engine with a fat turbo sucking EGT's to meet US emissions standards, but they can't get an NA engine with a tubular manifold to do it because we all know that is pure B.S.



Actually... technically with a turbo it's easier to achieve emissions and fuel economy. Lower revs, WAY MORE EGR flow, better valve timing for emissions control and EGT control.



Unless you are talking cold start emissions, which require rapid cat light off and are a tenet of CARB emissions standards... There is a very specific reason Honda went away from tubular manifolds, and it all relates to getting that cat hot fast. A turbo is counter productive to that, because it is a large heat sink, which is why on many turbocharged US cars, you find a pre-cat ahead of the turbo.



I have to point out that Honda went into integrated manifolds almost entirely for cost reasons. There's benefits for emissions as well as overall engine warmup, HVAC performance, NVH and the like, but it also means the elimination of a series of part numbers from the plant. There's quite a few engines out there still utilizing tubular manifolds... the most awesome mass production version I've seen to date is in the Skyactiv engine...
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2012 23:24
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
I agree.

Take away the tubular manifold, replace it with a cast iron one, put a smaller turbo and probably a large host of other internal changes, and we might have a CTR engine. Of course, then they will have to convince me how Honda was able to get a cast manifold engine with a fat turbo sucking EGT's to meet US emissions standards, but they can't get an NA engine with a tubular manifold to do it because we all know that is pure B.S.



Actually... technically with a turbo it's easier to achieve emissions and fuel economy. Lower revs, WAY MORE EGR flow, better valve timing for emissions control and EGT control.



Unless you are talking cold start emissions, which require rapid cat light off and are a tenet of CARB emissions standards... There is a very specific reason Honda went away from tubular manifolds, and it all relates to getting that cat hot fast. A turbo is counter productive to that, because it is a large heat sink, which is why on many turbocharged US cars, you find a pre-cat ahead of the turbo.



I have to point out that Honda went into integrated manifolds almost entirely for cost reasons. There's benefits for emissions as well as overall engine warmup, HVAC performance, NVH and the like, but it also means the elimination of a series of part numbers from the plant. There's quite a few engines out there still utilizing tubular manifolds... the most awesome mass production version I've seen to date is in the Skyactiv engine...



Cost was a reason, but it was also a key component in allowing them to transcend the LEV barrier. It wasn't just cost.
Also, you can't create heat from nowhere. A cold engine without a turbo between the head and cat is going to warm faster ceteris paribus.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 22:08
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If you say so, it must be true!
sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-22-2012 22:31
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Read the article on the WTCC Honda in the latest Racecar Engineering, and the most interesting point I took from it was that the Honda engineer's had developed a 1.6 turbo motor intended for motorsport, just to research the answers such a motor would give them. It was much later that they re-developed it to meet/suit the WTCC regulations, and basically turn a pure research project into a motor intended for a possible road car!!

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-23-2012 00:29
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CarPhreakD wrote:
If you say so, it must be true!

You can be snide and condescending about it all you want. According to SC (whom I am assuming you would not approach with the same tone) it is a big part of getting the new K24Z7 to meet its emissions tier.

Oh yeah, that is also what Honda said about it when the J series switched to them back in 2003.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-24-2012 12:16
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owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
If you say so, it must be true!

You can be snide and condescending about it all you want. According to SC (whom I am assuming you would not approach with the same tone) it is a big part of getting the new K24Z7 to meet its emissions tier.

Oh yeah, that is also what Honda said about it when the J series switched to them back in 2003.



You don't have to hang onto Shawn's coat tails for validation of any of your remarks!
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-24-2012 15:54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
If you say so, it must be true!

You can be snide and condescending about it all you want. According to SC (whom I am assuming you would not approach with the same tone) it is a big part of getting the new K24Z7 to meet its emissions tier.

Oh yeah, that is also what Honda said about it when the J series switched to them back in 2003.



You don't have to hang onto Shawn's coat tails for validation of any of your remarks!



Are you going to refute the point, or just sit there and snipe?
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda Civic WTCC Is Looking Good    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-24-2012 21:32
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It should be clear now that it's the latter =)
 
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