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  TOV News > Honda Develops New Lightweight and Compact Hybrid System Named "SPORT HYBRID I-DCD" > > Re: DCT

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VTEC_Inside
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DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 10:12
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Will it make it here and in what?
ntua.2002
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Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 11:31
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Do not know there...but maybe in Europe at the next gen CR-Z...it makes sense...
Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 11:41
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For Acura:
I'm thinking the TLX and MDX could get it.
The NSX and RLX are said to already have it too.
For Honda:
Probably nothing unless a sports coupe is brought out ( not Si, more like S2000 ) which isnt likely as Honda isn't interested in that market.
RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 11:51
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This is the replacement for the IMA.
The system that most people where calling the IMA2.
It will be for the Civic and smaller platforms.
This is Honda way of equally the hybrid system in the Prius with only one electric motor......or do you think better..... lighter.....7 spd dct...... cheaper.
ntua.2002
Profile for ntua.2002
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2012 13:12
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...so...& next gen CR-Z that is...??

The 1.5 Atkinson engine with the +95Kw output?
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 00:57
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VTEC_Inside wrote:
Will it make it here and in what?


this is the standard transmission for the next generation of small hybrid Hondas of the future. So everything with IMA that currently has a CVT will get this instead. I don't know what the plan would be for 6MT CR-Zs though.

Interestingly, while the official message from Honda doesn't really emphasize it, several Honda engineers said that this DCT is actually MORE efficient than their CVT, particularly at highway speeds where CVTs are apparently more parasitic.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 06:58
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Jeff wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
Will it make it here and in what?


this is the standard transmission for the next generation of small hybrid Hondas of the future. So everything with IMA that currently has a CVT will get this instead. I don't know what the plan would be for 6MT CR-Zs though.

Interestingly, while the official message from Honda doesn't really emphasize it, several Honda engineers said that this DCT is actually MORE efficient than their CVT, particularly at highway speeds where CVTs are apparently more parasitic.


Whenever there is juice available that wouldn't surprise me, and it's inline with my observations in the CR-Z.

Indeed, at high speed in the freeways I'm getting better FE on the CR-Z than in the Insight, despite the power/weight/wheel disadvantage.

I believe it is the case because Honda uses IMA to eat up slope fluctuation so that, even if the MT is stuck in some fixed ratio, it doesn't really need to downshift to seak more power, it's enough to simply boost assist. In many ways, IMA is therefore allowing the MT to behave as a CVT, with increased power being available on demand in continuous fashion. Though that can only be achieved within the range of motor power, I believe it's enough for most situations.

The rest of the time, the MT wins on inferior drivetrain loses, and there you go overall.

To me this is very interesting, and sure comes out from Honda experience of IMA in both CVT and MT cars. Once again, they made it beautifully simple yet effective, in pure Honda fashion. Hats off on the conceptual part, now let's see how it drives in the real world (smoothness is right now my main concern).

Basically, the main advantage of CVT on IMA designs has been the ability to minimize drive loses in combination with VCM. Indeed, on my CR-Z I drive a lot in neutral, because in many circumstances I wished I could just do precisely what this new system will do: decouple the drivetrain to reduce drivetrain loses. Here we get as a bonus a stronger motor that will be able to drive the car by itself, together with a fully decoupled engine, which will have even less drag than the CVT+VCM combo.
Sure the CVT ratio flexibility could extend the load range of possible EV mode, but in practice IMA motors output is so small that they can only power the car on a relatively narrow band without much speed variations; as such, the 7 fixed ratios may not be such a great handicap.

As usual with Honda, ain't no real breakthrough, but several key elements maturing and coming together. Can't wait to drive one.

P54
Profile for P54
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 09:41
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2. Honda will use both dual-clutch and continuously variable transmissions

Honda has long used CVTs in fuel efficient vehicles and hybrids, and even in the new 2013 Honda Accord four-cylinder, yet the tech briefing showed several prototype hybrids with dual-clutch transmissions. So which transmission option will Honda use going forward? Both.

Honda maintains that CVTs are generally the better solution for all-out fuel economy, but recognizes that dual-clutch transmissions are much more fun to drive and sporty. Cars that are designed only with fuel economy in mind will continue to use CVTs, but premium and sportier vehicles will get dual-clutch setups.

“DCT is intended for sporty experience for vehicles,” Nonaka explained. “[It's] not just for hybrids, and can be combined with regular sportier gasoline engines.”




MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 13:18
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Hondatalover wrote:
For Acura:
I'm thinking the TLX and MDX could get it.
The NSX and RLX are said to already have it too.
For Honda:
Probably nothing unless a sports coupe is brought out ( not Si, more like S2000 ) which isnt likely as Honda isn't interested in that market.



It's fantastic to see how in various parts of the world we refer to Honda in different ways.

Honda in europe get's all the good stuff since we don't have Acura and in the US apparently Honda is the cheapskate brand. Well well, all comes from the same company, Honda!

I really like what I see in Honda now, they seem to improve alot month by month now! Maybe I will be driving a Honda again 2014-2015 :) Yes!
4fc
Profile for 4fc
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 13:57
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Seems like it'll be "smooth operator"
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080419_honda-details-future-small-car-hybrid-system-we-drive-it
4fc
Profile for 4fc
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2012 14:04
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... and if we take the 44 mpg for the current HCH as benchmark of a IMA 1.5L and add 30% it'll go up to 57mpg! Close to 1st gen Insight levels:)
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 00:41
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danielgr wrote:
Jeff wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
Will it make it here and in what?


this is the standard transmission for the next generation of small hybrid Hondas of the future. So everything with IMA that currently has a CVT will get this instead. I don't know what the plan would be for 6MT CR-Zs though.

Interestingly, while the official message from Honda doesn't really emphasize it, several Honda engineers said that this DCT is actually MORE efficient than their CVT, particularly at highway speeds where CVTs are apparently more parasitic.


Whenever there is juice available that wouldn't surprise me, and it's inline with my observations in the CR-Z.

Indeed, at high speed in the freeways I'm getting better FE on the CR-Z than in the Insight, despite the power/weight/wheel disadvantage.

I believe it is the case because Honda uses IMA to eat up slope fluctuation so that, even if the MT is stuck in some fixed ratio, it doesn't really need to downshift to seak more power, it's enough to simply boost assist. In many ways, IMA is therefore allowing the MT to behave as a CVT, with increased power being available on demand in continuous fashion. Though that can only be achieved within the range of motor power, I believe it's enough for most situations.

The rest of the time, the MT wins on inferior drivetrain loses, and there you go overall.

To me this is very interesting, and sure comes out from Honda experience of IMA in both CVT and MT cars. Once again, they made it beautifully simple yet effective, in pure Honda fashion. Hats off on the conceptual part, now let's see how it drives in the real world (smoothness is right now my main concern).

Basically, the main advantage of CVT on IMA designs has been the ability to minimize drive loses in combination with VCM. Indeed, on my CR-Z I drive a lot in neutral, because in many circumstances I wished I could just do precisely what this new system will do: decouple the drivetrain to reduce drivetrain loses. Here we get as a bonus a stronger motor that will be able to drive the car by itself, together with a fully decoupled engine, which will have even less drag than the CVT+VCM combo.
Sure the CVT ratio flexibility could extend the load range of possible EV mode, but in practice IMA motors output is so small that they can only power the car on a relatively narrow band without much speed variations; as such, the 7 fixed ratios may not be such a great handicap.

As usual with Honda, ain't no real breakthrough, but several key elements maturing and coming together. Can't wait to drive one.




I will write a report with my drive impressions of the various technologies soon. But for now I can tell you that the entire range of sport hybrid setups work extremely well in prototype form. The combination of a motor with a DCT seems to be a very complementary match. Smoothness of operation is excellent in all three systems. I am very impressed. It's smoother than IMA+CVT
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 03:04
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Jeff wrote:
VTEC_Inside wrote:
Will it make it here and in what?


this is the standard transmission for the next generation of small hybrid Hondas of the future. So everything with IMA that currently has a CVT will get this instead. I don't know what the plan would be for 6MT CR-Zs though.

Interestingly, while the official message from Honda doesn't really emphasize it, several Honda engineers said that this DCT is actually MORE efficient than their CVT, particularly at highway speeds where CVTs are apparently more parasitic.



Jeff, I am not sure of the exact figures but earlier this year, I managed to get some Honda engineers from Tochigi excited enough that they told me that Honda has made significant improvements in the efficiency of all their gearboxes. I remember figures hovering around 85% efficiency (i.e. around 15% power loss) through the CVT, 90% (10% power loss) through their new DCT, and as high as 95% (i.e. 5% power loss) with their manual gearboxes. Today, after dyno-ing most of the latest models, I can see the estimation for the current CVT and manuals are quite accurate (e.g. Jazz/Fit Hybrid with CVT-7 dyno's with 15% power loss, CR-Z 6MT around 4-5% power loss). So I am optimistic their new DCT will offer around only 10% power loss, superior to that of the OLD Honda manual gearboxes but still nowhere near the efficiency of the current generation manual gearboxes.
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: DCT [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2012 06:57
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Jeff wrote:
[...]I will write a report with my drive impressions of the various technologies soon. But for now I can tell you that the entire range of sport hybrid setups work extremely well in prototype form. The combination of a motor with a DCT seems to be a very complementary match. Smoothness of operation is excellent in all three systems. I am very impressed. It's smoother than IMA+CVT
To be honest, after you told me of your Japanese trip, and news on the hybrid system started surfacing, I knew you were driving them.

Good to hear you were impressed, 'cause you are never an easy conquest ! I'll be looking forward to read you, as usual.
 
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