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TonyEX
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It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
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danielgr
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TonyE wrote:
It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
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I think you are being mislead Tony.
What makes ED is simply "something new to Honda".
FTR: There are already 4 ED engines in the market (US Accord i4 and V6, JDM N-Box family's 660cc with and without turbo), and two CVT trannies (same cars+ JDM Stream). None has the ability to run Atkinson cycle, and one isn't direct injected (Accord's V6).
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Restless
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ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
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P54
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Do you realize they won with the F1 car Honda developed. If it was the MB engine that made the win why did not other teams with MB engine beat it? Honda worked hard to develop the chassis and it happened to be done when they withdrew. Had Honda not withdrawn they could have won the championship with their own power.
Honda developed DI more than 13 years ago and did not call that ED. ED came about later and has something to do with "Blue skies for our children", clean performance, and as such they have succeeded. DI is just a "tool" to accomplish that.
To say ED is just a slogan is ridiculous. The ED is about clean performance. The new Accord is a partial emissions vehicle, has lots more low and mid-range power, acceleration is vastly improved and have better fuel efficiency to boot.
ED drive trains is about increased performance while reducing fuel consumption and emissions. The new FIT engine will deliver at least 10 more HP while at the same time be more FE and clean.
It is NOT about extracting the most power, however reducing emission and fuel consumption while at the same time increasing performance.
The current ED engines is only a base for further developments as needed.
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superchg2
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Let's all give Earth Dreams a chance!
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TonyEX
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danielgr wrote:
TonyE wrote:
It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
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I think you are being mislead Tony.
What makes ED is simply "something new to Honda".
FTR: There are already 4 ED engines in the market (US Accord i4 and V6, JDM N-Box family's 660cc with and without turbo), and two CVT trannies (same cars+ JDM Stream). None has the ability to run Atkinson cycle, and one isn't direct injected (Accord's V6).
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Wait a minute... ED heads do run an Atkinson cycle in the low rpm mode...
http://world.honda.com/news/2011/4111130Earth-Dreams-Technology/index.html
The volumetric efficiency gains of the Atkinson cycle is one of the reasons for the improved torque... after all, all other things being equal, torque is directly proportional to displacement.. ergo, the larger the displaced volume of air, the more torque.
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TonyEX
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Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
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You start a conversation you can't even finish it.
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything.
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed.
Say something once, why say it again?
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garoto628
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Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
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Oh Geez, so these Accords have failing F1 engines in them. Darn...
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superchg2
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TonyE wrote:
Wait a minute... ED heads do run an Atkinson cycle in the low rpm mode...
http://world.honda.com/news/2011/4111130Earth-Dreams-Technology/index.html
The volumetric efficiency gains of the Atkinson cycle is one of the reasons for the improved torque... after all, all other things being equal, torque is directly proportional to displacement.. ergo, the larger the displaced volume of air, the more torque.
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Tony, there are Atkinson cycle Earth Dreams, but not all ED engine's are Atkinson cycle, as the ED 2.4 engine currently available in the new Accord does not appear to have have Atkinson cycle.
The 2.0 in the upcoming Accord Hybrid will have Atkinson cycle.
At least you keep us on our toes, TonyE!
From Wilkipedia
" 1.8 to 2.0L class engine
Employs direct injection technology and the Atkinson cycle using the DOHC, VTEC technologies as the base. Implementation of VTC and high-capacity EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) to both the intake and exhaust ports creates significantly reduced friction. For the 2.0L class hybrid vehicle engines, use of an electric water pump eliminates the need for a belt in the auxiliary device and contributes to a reduction in friction.
2.4L class engine
Based on the DOHC and VTEC technologies, it employs VTC and direct injection technology and implements extensive friction reduction measures. Engine has improved 5%*3 in fuel efficiency and output, and a 10%*3 improvement in maximum torque compared to the previous engine."
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superchg2
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TonyE wrote:
Wait a minute... ED heads do run an Atkinson cycle in the low rpm mode...
http://world.honda.com/news/2011/4111130Earth-Dreams-Technology/index.html
The volumetric efficiency gains of the Atkinson cycle is one of the reasons for the improved torque... after all, all other things being equal, torque is directly proportional to displacement.. ergo, the larger the displaced volume of air, the more torque.
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Tony, there are Atkinson cycle Earth Dreams, but not all ED engine's are Atkinson cycle, as the ED 2.4 engine currently available in the new Accord does not appear to have Atkinson cycle.
The 2.0 in the upcoming Accord Hybrid will have Atkinson cycle.
At least you keep us on our toes, TonyE!
From Wilkipedia
" 1.8 to 2.0L class engine
Employs direct injection technology and the Atkinson cycle using the DOHC, VTEC technologies as the base. Implementation of VTC and high-capacity EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) to both the intake and exhaust ports creates significantly reduced friction. For the 2.0L class hybrid vehicle engines, use of an electric water pump eliminates the need for a belt in the auxiliary device and contributes to a reduction in friction.
2.4L class engine
Based on the DOHC and VTEC technologies, it employs VTC and direct injection technology and implements extensive friction reduction measures. Engine has improved 5%*3 in fuel efficiency and output, and a 10%*3 improvement in maximum torque compared to the previous engine."
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danielgr
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TonyE wrote:
danielgr wrote:
TonyE wrote:
It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
|
I think you are being mislead Tony.
What makes ED is simply "something new to Honda".
FTR: There are already 4 ED engines in the market (US Accord i4 and V6, JDM N-Box family's 660cc with and without turbo), and two CVT trannies (same cars+ JDM Stream). None has the ability to run Atkinson cycle, and one isn't direct injected (Accord's V6).
|
Wait a minute... ED heads do run an Atkinson cycle in the low rpm mode...
http://world.honda.com/news/2011/4111130Earth-Dreams-Technology/index.html
The volumetric efficiency gains of the Atkinson cycle is one of the reasons for the improved torque... after all, all other things being equal, torque is directly proportional to displacement.. ergo, the larger the displaced volume of air, the more torque.
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No Tony, actually:
- As I said, none of the current ED engines runs atkinson, which is why the K24W FE is good but not that mind-blowing after all (wrote about it a while ago, but obviously such details are not interesting in TOV when you have cupholders and wishbones to talk about).
- First engine to run in atkinson cycle will be the 2.0L in the Accord hybrid, but I believe that one will ALWAYS run that cycle, no switch over to regular operation.
- Future i4's will do what you read on that Press Release (I expect starting with the 1.8L or 1.5L).
As I said, ED does not account for any particular tech, but for a wide array of stuff, which can be summed up as "something new to Honda".
More detailed examples:
- The V6 in the Accord doesn't have direct injection, nor atkinson, nor it is matted to a CVT. Still, it debuted VCM+VTEC on a Honda V6 and for that reason branded as ED.
- The i4 in the Accord has no Atkinson operation mode, but it debuts the new Direct Injection setup together with the new (ED-branded) CVT, which grants it the ED brand.
- Same can be said from the 660cc ED engines on the N-Box (Direct Injection + new CVT but no Atkinson operation).
- The ED CVT debuted on the Japanese StepWGN, and all it has as a transmission is, well, being a newly dessigned transmission.
Hope that helped you see clearer.
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DrWhiner
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@Tony:
According to the press release from Honda you linked:
"Earth Dreams Technology" is a next generation set of technological advancements which greatly enhance both driving performance and fuel efficiency at a high level, using as its base advanced environmental technologies to pursue the joy of driving unique to Honda. It is a series of measures in which efficiency of internal combustion components including engine, and transmission, as well as electric-powered motor technology, is further improved.
It further mentioned
Gasoline engine which achieves top-of-industry driving performance and fuel efficiency
- By enhancing Honda's original VTEC (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control System) technology to thoroughly improve thermal efficiency and minimize friction, a combination of high output and fuel efficiency was achieved. Further, a new engine series employing a new structure for higher expandability was developed. [...]
* Inspiration of the "Earth Dreams Technology" name:
"Earth Dreams Technology" is an expression for a set of technologies which takes into account both our need to protect the environment and our desire to provide a joy of driving
@Daniel:
I don't think the S-07 in N-box has DI yet.
From the same press release:
[ 660cc class engine ]
- Employs DOHC and VTC (Variable Timing Control) to improve intake efficiency. Further, the compact combustion chamber realizes high thermal efficiency.
- By shortening the bore pitch compared to the present engine models and reducing the thickness of the cylinder block and camshaft, engine weight is reduced by 15% and fuel efficiency is improved by 10%
danielgr wrote:
No Tony, actually:
- As I said, none of the current ED engines runs atkinson, which is why the K24W FE is good but not that mind-blowing after all (wrote about it a while ago, but obviously such details are not interesting in TOV when you have cupholders and wishbones to talk about).
- First engine to run in atkinson cycle will be the 2.0L in the Accord hybrid, but I believe that one will ALWAYS run that cycle, no switch over to regular operation.
- Future i4's will do what you read on that Press Release #I expect starting with the 1.8L or 1.5L#.
As I said, ED does not account for any particular tech, but for a wide array of stuff, which can be summed up as "something new to Honda".
More detailed examples:
- The V6 in the Accord doesn't have direct injection, nor atkinson, nor it is matted to a CVT. Still, it debuted VCM+VTEC on a Honda V6 and for that reason branded as ED.
- The i4 in the Accord has no Atkinson operation mode, but it debuts the new Direct Injection setup together with the new (ED-branded) CVT, which grants it the ED brand.
- Same can be said from the 660cc ED engines on the N-Box (Direct Injection + new CVT but no Atkinson operation).
- The ED CVT debuted on the Japanese StepWGN, and all it has as a transmission is, well, being a newly dessigned transmission.
Hope that helped you see clearer.
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DrWhiner
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Oh, forgot to add:
AFAIK, the K24W in '13 Accord is the first DI application from Honda after previous K20 DI.
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owequitit
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TonyE wrote:
It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
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"ED" is nothing more than a marketing slogan.
They have a list of features that they claim to comprise "ED," but the reality is that it they A) technologies that are behind the curve in terms of implementation and B) they are technologies that don't result in class leading power or MPG performance.
To Honda's credit, I will say that they blur the compromise between the two pretty well, but then again, so has every non-ED Honda we have owned for the last 25 years...
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danielgr
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DrWhiner wrote:
@Daniel:
I don't think the S-07 in N-box has DI yet.
From the same press release:
[ 660cc class engine ]
- Employs DOHC and VTC (Variable Timing Control) to improve intake efficiency. Further, the compact combustion chamber realizes high thermal efficiency.
- By shortening the bore pitch compared to the present engine models and reducing the thickness of the cylinder block and camshaft, engine weight is reduced by 15% and fuel efficiency is improved by 10%
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You are right, I got stuff mixed up this time; thanks for noticing.
The N-Box drivetrain gets the ED apellative by introducing to Honda kei-cars:
- A full DOHC setup with VTM
- A CVT
For as long as I can remember all Honda-keis had been powered by SOHC engines without any kind of variable valve timing. Wonder if either the really old cars (N360) or the sporty Beat were exceptions; will check it out later.
As I said though: "something new to Honda".
DrWhiner wrote:
AFAIK, the K24W in '13 Accord is the first DI application from Honda after previous K20 DI. |
I think so. The K24W DI implementation is rather different from the original in the JDM Stream (which used center injectors) though, which is why I wrote "the new DI setup".
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nash24
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Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
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if u think the MB engine was the difference that won brawn the F1 title you know nothing about F1 and why have they done shit since, f1 is aero and tyres not engine
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Restless
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nash24 wrote:
Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
|
if u think the MB engine was the difference that won brawn the F1 title you know nothing about F1 and why have they done shit since, f1 is aero and tyres not engine
|
It was claimed that Honda had to invest more than 10mln in order to improve their engine and when crysis struck they just withdraw, losing hope in Brawn aero-design and unwilling to improve the engine.
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Dren
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I've seen pills advertised on TV for ED.
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DrWhiner
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Restless wrote:
nash24 wrote:
Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
|
if u think the MB engine was the difference that won brawn the F1 title you know nothing about F1 and why have they done shit since, f1 is aero and tyres not engine
|
It was claimed that Honda had to invest more than 10mln in order to improve their engine and when crysis struck they just withdraw, losing hope in Brawn aero-design and unwilling to improve the engine.
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OMG!!!
from BBC back in Mar 2006
F1 puts engine technology on hold
Formula One's ruling body, the FIA, has decided to introduce a three-year freeze on engine technology from 2008. [...]
No matter how much Honda going to spend on the engine, it doesn't matter ....
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P54
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Dren wrote:
I've seen pills advertised on TV for ED.
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Why don't you buy some and put them in your fuel tank, who knows maybe FE improves or HP increases. Could make you rich in a short time.
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330R
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That didn't keep teams/engine manufacturers from asking permission and getting it, to make changes/improvements in the name of "reliability".
I remember Rubens talked about the driveability of the engine in the RA108, compared to the Mercedes engine in the RA109/BGP 001, that the Honda was very peaky and lower on torque. I remember him saying the power came on at once up top.
Too bad the rules didn't allow the K24 *rimshot*
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DrWhiner
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nash24 wrote:
Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
|
if u think the MB engine was the difference that won brawn the F1 title you know nothing about F1 and why have they done shit since, f1 is aero and tyres not engine
|
I remember the 'double-decker diffuser' from Brawn.
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330R
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DrWhiner wrote:
I remember the 'double-decker diffuser' from Super Aguri.
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Fixed
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Restless
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DrWhiner wrote:
Restless wrote:
nash24 wrote:
Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
|
if u think the MB engine was the difference that won brawn the F1 title you know nothing about F1 and why have they done shit since, f1 is aero and tyres not engine
|
It was claimed that Honda had to invest more than 10mln in order to improve their engine and when crysis struck they just withdraw, losing hope in Brawn aero-design and unwilling to improve the engine.
|
OMG!!!
from BBC back in Mar 2006
F1 puts engine technology on hold
Formula One's ruling body, the FIA, has decided to introduce a three-year freeze on engine technology from 2008. [...]
No matter how much Honda going to spend on the engine, it doesn't matter ....
|
Yes, there was engine-freeze.
And yes, changes were allowed IF they qualified for "increasing durability"
Renault and Mercedes used the loophole to improve their engines, Honda did not.
Back in 2008 this was all over f1-fan sites. I remember James Allen writing about that too.
http://www.benzinsider.com/2008/08/mercedes-f1-engine-power-advantage/ - found this with 5 min searching, no idea how to search only by year of origin.
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DrWhiner
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I think you said loophole?
Since you are the expert, tell me what have Mercedes and Renault done to their engines, and let me know how would such changes affect the performance of Honda's engine.
Could such changes have same impact?
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Restless
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I'm not an engine expert. But Button and Barichelo were complaining about "lacking power" and then :
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4
| Only 2 years later however, halfway through 2008, the FIA and several teams who strictly followed the rules - including the likes of Toyota and Renault - found that the regulations still allowed too much freedom. It appeared that over the last year, Mercedes and Ferrari had been able to add up to 40hp to their engines as so called "reliability updates", while others had followed the engine freeze more strictly. Several meetings with FIA officials and the teams' principals then resulted in an equalisation of the engines, in which the less powerful could put on several updates to be on par in the next years. |
There were posts on respected sites that millions of $ ( >10 ) were needed to implement such updates - probably it wasn't too to achieve it even with idea what to do, so research/certification in several steps were needed.
And during 2008 season, on numerous occasions, Button and Barrichelo were complaining that engine is lacking in top power.
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CarPhreakD
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TonyE wrote:
It seems to me that ED is mostly in the head valve train (plus direct injection)...
The ability to run Atkinson on low RPM and Otto on high RPM.
Are there any requirements on the block? Ie: does it require an undersquare block (long stroke ) to really bump up the torque when running in Atkinson mode?
Or will it work with an oversquare block to yield high rpm horsepower while using ED to maintain the torque of a long stroke in the low/mids rpm range?
Speaking of which.... do engines put out more pollution at high RPM?
|
The key to a long stroke design is that it promotes swirl, which is why it's a more suitable design for direct injection (which traditional has big problems with this). Obviously there are other reasons, but this is one design consideration.
The K20 pollutes more at high RPM, because at that point you have charge literally going in and out. Ultimately it was the combination of port injection and volumetric efficiency that was the engine's undoing, that plus the engine's conservative tuning which wasn't that eco-friendly. It's possible that a high performance, high revving engine CAN make a return in the future but it will require direct injection and a cooled EGR system (and maybe an enhanced EGR system utilizing something crazy like an auxiliary electric water pump) to pass emissions.
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Dren
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DrWhiner wrote:
I think you said loophole?
Since you are the expert, tell me what have Mercedes and Renault done to their engines, and let me know how would such changes affect the performance of Honda's engine.
Could such changes have same impact?
|
Several of the engine manufacturers made performance enhancements to their engines under the "reliability" clause. If I remember correctly, Ferrari was the first to do so. After some complaining, Renault was allowed to increase their engine performance to meet the competition (rumored around 25hp or so). Honda was going to do the same for 2009, but they dropped out. The Honda engine was down on power and drivability compared to the rest (Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault). This was common knowledge. The $10mil in engine development (or whatever was mentioned above) was a drop in the bucket. Honda still pumped $100mil into the team for operating costs -after- the team was sold to Brawn and Co.
There has been little to gain in engine performance over the last couple years because of tight engine regulation. The main performance gains have been in engine mapping for exhaust gasses around the diffuser area. These have been in aero gains with actual losses in engine torque output. Although that has been somewhat banned through torque output variance limitations at a given RPM.
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Dren
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P54 wrote:
Dren wrote:
I've seen pills advertised on TV for ED.
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Why don't you buy some and put them in your fuel tank, who knows maybe FE improves or HP increases. Could make you rich in a short time.
|
That's what my Type-R and VTEC stickers are for.
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Dren
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Restless wrote:
ED is just that - a slogan.
After failing of a-vtec, Honda realized they need "good PR", so added DI and called it "Earth Dreams".
Same name as with the biggest F1 engine-failure for Honda - with ED engine the team was unable to score points, an year after same team won championship with MB engine
|
Superb aerodynamics, front AND rear on that car, along with its weight distribution made the BrawnGP a wonderful car. It is rumored that the BrawnGP car is the most expensive F1 car ever developed. The time and resources poured into the development made that car. The Mercedes implementation had its pros and cons.
It wasn't down to just the nifty diffuser.
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