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MarkR
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I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
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CivicB18
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I think you need to look around the site more as there are many positive threads on the new Accord, upcoming MMC'd Civic as well as other Honda/Acura models.
As for the M135 (the actual ///M version), it only comes with a 6 speed manual transmission. The regular 135i has a 7 DCT. Your S4 (if it's the current 3.0T) is as fast or faster than a 135i.
~Patrick
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MalcolmR
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.
From what I've seen Honda admirers tend to dwell on the real things like quality, engineering, reliability, resale value, ease and fun of ownership, ... when we have substance as in the new Accord there's less need to be emotive.
Honda fans tend to focus on substance.
Malcolm
:)
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superchg2
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MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV
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There have been many topic's generated about the new Accord on TOV and several new owners have already been commenting on their new cars. Also, many others have Accord's on order, especially with the 6 speed.
While there may not be outright excitement for the new Accord,
I have not seen so much interest in a new offering since the 8G Civic Si came out in late 2005!
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BachelorFrog
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LOL, have any of you visited OT section of M3Forum lately? No one is excited about any M cars, they even lost their hope for the upcoming M3/M4.
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MarkR
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CivicB18 wrote:
I think you need to look around the site more as there are many positive threads on the new Accord, upcoming MMC'd Civic as well as other Honda/Acura models.
As for the M135 (the actual ///M version), it only comes with a 6 speed manual transmission. The regular 135i has a 7 DCT. Your S4 (if it's the current 3.0T) is as fast or faster than a 135i.
~Patrick
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Nopes (or I cannot comment about US) but over here M135 has 8-speed DCT. (7DCT is the old model of the gearbox)
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CivicB18
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MarkR wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I think you need to look around the site more as there are many positive threads on the new Accord, upcoming MMC'd Civic as well as other Honda/Acura models.
As for the M135 (the actual ///M version), it only comes with a 6 speed manual transmission. The regular 135i has a 7 DCT. Your S4 (if it's the current 3.0T) is as fast or faster than a 135i.
~Patrick
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Nopes (or I cannot comment about US) but over here M135 has 8-speed DCT. (7DCT is the old model of the gearbox)
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I think you need to recheck your facts once again and the F20 BMW 1 Series uses the 8 speed automatic from the all new 3 Series. It IS NOT a dual clutch transmission!
~Patrick
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MarkR
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CivicB18 wrote:
MarkR wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I think you need to look around the site more as there are many positive threads on the new Accord, upcoming MMC'd Civic as well as other Honda/Acura models.
As for the M135 (the actual ///M version), it only comes with a 6 speed manual transmission. The regular 135i has a 7 DCT. Your S4 (if it's the current 3.0T) is as fast or faster than a 135i.
~Patrick
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Nopes (or I cannot comment about US) but over here M135 has 8-speed DCT. (7DCT is the old model of the gearbox)
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I think you need to recheck your facts once again and the F20 BMW 1 Series uses the 8 speed automatic from the all new 3 Series. It IS NOT a dual clutch transmission!
~Patrick
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Ouch...didn't check but I believe you! I just automatically thought it was dual. Ok, so conventional but 8 speed.
You won :)
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MarkR
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MarkR wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
MarkR wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
I think you need to look around the site more as there are many positive threads on the new Accord, upcoming MMC'd Civic as well as other Honda/Acura models.
As for the M135 (the actual ///M version), it only comes with a 6 speed manual transmission. The regular 135i has a 7 DCT. Your S4 (if it's the current 3.0T) is as fast or faster than a 135i.
~Patrick
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Nopes (or I cannot comment about US) but over here M135 has 8-speed DCT. (7DCT is the old model of the gearbox)
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I think you need to recheck your facts once again and the F20 BMW 1 Series uses the 8 speed automatic from the all new 3 Series. It IS NOT a dual clutch transmission!
~Patrick
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Ouch...didn't check but I believe you! I just automatically thought it was dual. Ok, so conventional but 8 speed.
You won :)
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Yeah, I was dead wrong.
Anyway, you know what I'm a sucker for normal "family cars" that are quick and fun.
http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714696
I just love when reviews say that cars "Even the soundtrack is great, a proper hard-edged BMW six snarl", I wish I could buy a Honda with a hard-edged scream :)
"M135 is manically quick, subjectively, even quicker than the the 4.9sec 0-62mph figure,"
" the raspy engine note fills the car and there’s muffled pops and bangs from the exhaust on the overrun.
What sets this sensational powertrain apart though is its smoothness, even as you scream towards the 7,200rpm redline, which is partly thanks to the superb eight-speed auto gearbox."
Haha I must be the easiest guy to sell to for marketing guys :) ...anyway, I love the above.
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TonyEX
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superchg2 wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV
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There have been many topic's generated about the new Accord on TOV and several new owners have already been commenting on their new cars. Also, many others have Accord's on order, especially with the 6 speed.
While there may not be outright excitement for the new Accord,
I have not seen so much interest in a new offering since the 8G Civic Si came out in late 2005!
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Well... we keep having the old 8th vs 9th gen Si discussion....
Hint, I'm right, they're wrong.
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CarPhreakD
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Yeah, it's an 8 speed automatic, that means planetary gears and a torque converter. It's a ZF design that's also used in the Chrysler 300 and new RAM 1500. How can you possibly like the car but make such a basic mistake? That's almost as bad as those idiots who had no idea their 1-series is FWD.
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garoto628
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It's interesting that 8th gen civic is still a topic of discussion, I like that because I own one.
I have to say (off-topic) but I saw an HFP blue civic Si coupe for the first time, it looked sweeet.
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MarkR
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, it's an 8 speed automatic, that means planetary gears and a torque converter. It's a ZF design that's also used in the Chrysler 300 and new RAM 1500. How can you possibly like the car but make such a basic mistake? That's almost as bad as those idiots who had no idea their 1-series is FWD.
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Thanks!
You know what, I'm a simple guy who just happens to like driving.
I do read car reviews quite alot and stupidly maybe but I fall for quotes like "raspy engine note", "great traction and power slingshots you out of the turn"... "quick shifts".
I am not an industry expert so I don't know what kind of suspension gives great traction when huge amounts of power is sent to the wheels but I know one thing, right now Honda doesn't produce cars that give exciting reviews. I was unsure of the new 1-series gearbox but thought it was DKG because it got such good reviews. Little did I know.
I never lusted after a supercharger, but I bought the S4 because it got such wonderful reviews regarding the creamy super powerful engine.
So yes CarPhreak, just call me me an "idiot" :) I'm not going to call you any names, you seem to know what you are talking about when discussing cars!
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A77
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, it's an 8 speed automatic, that means planetary gears and a torque converter. It's a ZF design that's also used in the Chrysler 300 and new RAM 1500. How can you possibly like the car but make such a basic mistake? That's almost as bad as those idiots who had no idea their 1-series is FWD.
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Since when has the 1 series been FWD....?
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BachelorFrog
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A77 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, it's an 8 speed automatic, that means planetary gears and a torque converter. It's a ZF design that's also used in the Chrysler 300 and new RAM 1500. How can you possibly like the car but make such a basic mistake? That's almost as bad as those idiots who had no idea their 1-series is FWD.
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Since when has the 1 series been FWD....?
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jk..lol
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CarPhreakD
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A77 wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, it's an 8 speed automatic, that means planetary gears and a torque converter. It's a ZF design that's also used in the Chrysler 300 and new RAM 1500. How can you possibly like the car but make such a basic mistake? That's almost as bad as those idiots who had no idea their 1-series is FWD.
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Since when has the 1 series been FWD....?
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Whoa, for a second I reverted back to Engrish. That was supposed to say "who had no idea their 1-series isn't FWD".
But then Bachelorfrog's highlighted something... that's a Euro license plate.
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Grace141
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BachelorFrog wrote:
A77 wrote:
Since when has the 1 series been FWD....?
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jk..lol
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Right now, I can just hear a mechanical engineer somewhere saying that photo is proper with the bulk of the traction being at the tires doing the steering and a majority of the braking.
Thanks for that photo. It made my day.
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owequitit
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TonyE wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV
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There have been many topic's generated about the new Accord on TOV and several new owners have already been commenting on their new cars. Also, many others have Accord's on order, especially with the 6 speed.
While there may not be outright excitement for the new Accord,
I have not seen so much interest in a new offering since the 8G Civic Si came out in late 2005!
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Well... we keep having the old 8th vs 9th gen Si discussion....
Hint, I'm right, they're wrong.
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Still have twisted panties huh Tony? Nobody has even talked about it for weeks, and yet here you are beating the dead horse, and then claiming innocence.
And no, unfortunately, you aren't right. Sales prove it. Inventory proves it, and financing discounts prove it.
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owequitit
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MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
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Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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CarPhreakD
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owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
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Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You say that, but everyone knows you're going to buy the new Accord and love it. And when the 10th version comes out with better ride, handling, and improved powertrain... you're going to tell us about how it isn't as good as the 9th generation. It's a story as old as time itself.
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superchg2
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Honda, just put some more 6 speeds on the dealer's lots and there will be even more excitement.
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Chris_6MT
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
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Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You say that, but everyone knows you're going to buy the new Accord and love it. And when the 10th version comes out with better ride, handling, and improved powertrain... you're going to tell us about how it isn't as good as the 9th generation. It's a story as old as time itself.
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Not really. I owned a 6th gen V6 and upgraded to the 7th gen V6 6MT. When the 8th gen came out I absolutely hated it, even more so after driving it. But I'm very excited about the prospect of a 9th gen V6 6MT and will try to pick one up CPO in a year or two.
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P54
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owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
|
Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You put words in my mouth
I did not say people at TOV were irrelevant, however the grammar in a letter from AHM sales is irrelevant to the new 2013 Civic. Neither did I say people WANT cars like what you described.
This is what you said earlier:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1085878&news_item_id=1085496
benbess wrote:
There will be a significant performance increase with the 2013 2.4 Accord. The 2013 is going to be c. 150 pounds lighter. And the new Earth Dreams DI engine has more torque.
Bottom line is that I expect acceleration from 0-60 to be faster by almost 1 second compared with the 2012. But that's just a guess. We'll soon see.
owequitit answered:
You are just inventing numbers at this point.
As a rule of thumb, each 100lbs of weight lost or gained will affect 1/4 mile time by about .1 second. So expecting anywhere near a second is silly. Even with the CVT, the lower weight and the slight increase in torque (with a likely commensurate loss in top end, uncles Honda has a second, higher output), it will MAYBE a half second faster. |
This is what Car and driver said:
All 181 lb-ft of torque—20 more than in the previous-gen EX’s four-cylinder engine—appear by 3900 rpm, which makes it possible to inject some thrills into the daily commute without winding each gear to the 6800-rpm redline. Of course, if you wish to play, the powertrain is ready and willing, as evidenced by our notes from the test track: “Plenty of low-end torque, so you’ll want to launch around 2500 rpm and spin the tires to redline. Very easy to approach the rev limiter and then shift at just the right time.” The 6.6-second scoot to 60 is mighty impressive—it’s 1.3 seconds quicker than that of a last-gen four-cylinder with a manual—and the car covered the quarter in 15.3. |
So why are you as an enthusiast not excited when Car and driver calls 0-60 time "mighty impressive", you estimated MAYBE 0.5 second faster but it did it 1.3 second faster?
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atomiclightbulb
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P54, that is an interesting link thread you found there.
In this thread, I am having a debate with owequitit on a similar subject: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1105599&page_number=3&news_item_id=1105544
owequitit claimed that I "sensationalized" the performance of the Accord Sport 6MT, when all I did was post the link to the C&D test data and state that I hadn't found any other midsize sedan with a naturally aspirated I4 engine that performed as well.
It is interesting to see that owequitit expected a 0.5 second increase in 0-60 times for the automatic.
In my thread, I pointed out that the Motor Trend test showed that the 9G Accord in fact achieved a 0.9 second advantage over the outgoing 8G Accord (7.7 seconds for 9G versus 8.6 seconds for 8G)
Honda achieved 180% of owequitit's expectations for increase in acceleration where CVT models are concerned, and 260% of his expectation if one looks at MT models.
I just don't know what he expects in terms of performance from a mainstream midsize sedan. Either he has unrealistic expectations for a $25k family car, or he is arguing in bad faith (basically pursuing a strategy of complaining no matter what Honda does).
I tend to think that owequitit's expectations are unrealistic in this case. He has stated that he wants a performance oriented powertrain with exhaust-side VTEC, freer flowing exhaust, and less emphasis on emissions. All of this is reasonable in the context of a sports car, and I agree with him that Honda hasn't put much effort here. His demands do not make much sense to me in the context of a family car, where engine power is less of a concern, and ride quality, NVH, and electronics are a higher priority.
Basically, he's justifiably angry that Honda hasn't put any effort into next generation performance oriented powertrains, and using those justifications to attack Honda's mainstream offerings, which makes no sense.
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owequitit
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CarPhreakD wrote:
owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
|
Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You say that, but everyone knows you're going to buy the new Accord and love it. And when the 10th version comes out with better ride, handling, and improved powertrain... you're going to tell us about how it isn't as good as the 9th generation. It's a story as old as time itself.
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Try again, although it is nice to see that you think yourself so insightful as to know what the future holds for me with some level of certainty...
Over-estimating your omnipotence slightly?
I hate to be completely realistic here, but the biggest reason I am not more disappointed with the 9th gen is because IMO, the 8th gen was a let down in many ways as far as Honda execution is concerned. It is easier to outperform and under-performing product than a great one.
That said, there are still some tangible areas where I am not 100% pleased with the new Accord. Overall, it seemed like a solid effort in the time I was able to spend with it, but then again, so did the 8th. Some of the areas I deplore most (MPG, powertrain performance, and the 1 very annoying rattle) didn't come until later, so at this point I am unwilling to draw a definite conclusion on the 9th. Luckily, I have you to do it for me apparently. Give me a break. I can tell you this, from the 4th gen on, the overall execution has dwindled slightly generation after generation, and while the 9th may not be worse than the 8th, it sure as hell isn't up to Honda's old standards in all places.
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
|
Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You put words in my mouth
I did not say people at TOV were irrelevant, however the grammar in a letter from AHM sales is irrelevant to the new 2013 Civic. Neither did I say people WANT cars like what you described.
This is what you said earlier:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1085878&news_item_id=1085496
benbess wrote:
There will be a significant performance increase with the 2013 2.4 Accord. The 2013 is going to be c. 150 pounds lighter. And the new Earth Dreams DI engine has more torque.
Bottom line is that I expect acceleration from 0-60 to be faster by almost 1 second compared with the 2012. But that's just a guess. We'll soon see.
owequitit answered:
You are just inventing numbers at this point.
As a rule of thumb, each 100lbs of weight lost or gained will affect 1/4 mile time by about .1 second. So expecting anywhere near a second is silly. Even with the CVT, the lower weight and the slight increase in torque (with a likely commensurate loss in top end, uncles Honda has a second, higher output), it will MAYBE a half second faster. |
This is what Car and driver said:
All 181 lb-ft of torque—20 more than in the previous-gen EX’s four-cylinder engine—appear by 3900 rpm, which makes it possible to inject some thrills into the daily commute without winding each gear to the 6800-rpm redline. Of course, if you wish to play, the powertrain is ready and willing, as evidenced by our notes from the test track: “Plenty of low-end torque, so you’ll want to launch around 2500 rpm and spin the tires to redline. Very easy to approach the rev limiter and then shift at just the right time.” The 6.6-second scoot to 60 is mighty impressive—it’s 1.3 seconds quicker than that of a last-gen four-cylinder with a manual—and the car covered the quarter in 15.3. |
So why are you as an enthusiast not excited when Car and driver calls 0-60 time "mighty impressive", you estimated MAYBE 0.5 second faster but it did it 1.3 second faster?
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I didn't put anything in your mouth P54. You did.
Anytime something is posted from an enthusiastic standpoint you go on an all out political crusade to crush it down and stomp out the dissent so that people won't know your agenda is full of shit.
Every time, every thread, every post, every day. I will be more than happy to literally bury this thread in your one sided bullshit if you like. Or you can tuck tail and pull out now. Your choice.
The bottom line is that Honda has no product to get excited about unless you are a blind, indoctrinated fanboy or an absolute ecological fascist. All of the posting to the contrary isn't going to fix that, no matter how much you pretend it will.
And yes, you do actually tell a significant portion of this board that they are irrelevant with every single thread and post. The problem with people like you is that you say things that have intent and implied meaning, but then you attempt to pretend you didn't say it because it wasn't direct. The problem is that anyone with a brain can see right through the smokescreen.
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owequitit
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P54 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
MarkR wrote:
I am surprised on how little excitement and buzz there is on TOV, new Accord is out and everyone that have been defending Honda how great cars they make I would expect to be all over writing driving stories, dynamics and posting cool pics?
When I browse E90, Audizine those boys seem to be much more excited over their cars????
You got what you asked for and defended, not a very strong motor and not the coolest looking car either but super duper maintenance free and a superb commuter car. Why not more excitement?
I was wondering of letting my S4 go in favour of a smaller car and the M135 seems to be kinda nice I have to say, b*tt ugly, I think not even a mother can love but very very quick, I love the 8-speed DSG.
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Why would you expect to see a high level of excitement? What products is Honda producing that would make an enthusiast excited? At best, we have shills like P54 telling us that we are irrelevant and people actually WANT half-assed plasticky executions of formerly great product.
The Accord is much better than expected, and it has received the commentary as such. However, with each version being more isolated, less fun, and less connected than before, Honda is in the same boat as BMW at the moment. The core fan base and many of the people who have continually supported them over the years are not happy with many of the decisions being made. They have killed virtually every fun product they made, isolated what was left, and then cut quality in nearly everything they made. The Accord signals a partial return to form, but there is still a little bit of Honda DNA missing here and there. Hopefully they realize this after the Civic debacle and fix it post haste.
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You put words in my mouth
I did not say people at TOV were irrelevant, however the grammar in a letter from AHM sales is irrelevant to the new 2013 Civic. Neither did I say people WANT cars like what you described.
This is what you said earlier:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1085878&news_item_id=1085496
benbess wrote:
There will be a significant performance increase with the 2013 2.4 Accord. The 2013 is going to be c. 150 pounds lighter. And the new Earth Dreams DI engine has more torque.
Bottom line is that I expect acceleration from 0-60 to be faster by almost 1 second compared with the 2012. But that's just a guess. We'll soon see.
owequitit answered:
You are just inventing numbers at this point.
As a rule of thumb, each 100lbs of weight lost or gained will affect 1/4 mile time by about .1 second. So expecting anywhere near a second is silly. Even with the CVT, the lower weight and the slight increase in torque (with a likely commensurate loss in top end, uncles Honda has a second, higher output), it will MAYBE a half second faster. |
This is what Car and driver said:
All 181 lb-ft of torque—20 more than in the previous-gen EX’s four-cylinder engine—appear by 3900 rpm, which makes it possible to inject some thrills into the daily commute without winding each gear to the 6800-rpm redline. Of course, if you wish to play, the powertrain is ready and willing, as evidenced by our notes from the test track: “Plenty of low-end torque, so you’ll want to launch around 2500 rpm and spin the tires to redline. Very easy to approach the rev limiter and then shift at just the right time.” The 6.6-second scoot to 60 is mighty impressive—it’s 1.3 seconds quicker than that of a last-gen four-cylinder with a manual—and the car covered the quarter in 15.3. |
So why are you as an enthusiast not excited when Car and driver calls 0-60 time "mighty impressive", you estimated MAYBE 0.5 second faster but it did it 1.3 second faster?
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You might want to go back with the intent of reading for COMPREHENSION. Tough task, I know.
The discussion was about 1/4 mile time, not 0-60. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference because your enthusiast credentials are about as existent as the US Space program at this point. Maybe you can rent credentials from someone else.
Now, go back and read the post I just put in that thread. Guess what? The new car averages about .4 seconds faster than the old one in the metric I was referring to (which was 1/4 mile). That makes you not only wrong, but simply proves that I pretty much nailed my point whenever that one was made. Thanks for proving my point though.
Also, I would point out just like you are so fond of doing that acceleration isn't the only aspect of a car. The 1 second improvement in 0-60 doesn't really impress me that much because it only makes it about as fast as my "slow" Si. You know, the one with the torqueless K20Z3 that you love to bitch so much about and flame everyone who likes it? You would think that with an extra 50 lb-ft it would at least be notably faster than the Si with its meager 139 lb-ft and "high strung" powerband. Hell, the Accord Sport is only 200 lbs more as well.
I would also note that the new Accord V6 (which I have actually driven, but you probably haven't) is also about 1 second faster 0-60 than the "old" 8th gen Accord V6 (one of which we also own) and while noticable, it doesn't make the car a completely different animal. Where the new car really shines is in having the extra mid-range torque afforded by VTEC, as well as the greater gearing flexibility afforded by the 6AT. The difference between 0-60 is less impressive IMO than the constant pull where the old one would fall off after 2nd gear. I also think the engine's ability to not feel like you are in a torque hole below 5K is also a major and noticeable advantage. But again, I wouldn't expect you to understand any of that, because it isn't contained in a convenient internet link.
P.S. To further clarify my last point aimed at you: You are claiming 1 single incident. You are on here schilling yourself out on a daily basis. You are talking isolated incident. I am talking long-term history. Your interpretation of my perspective is flawed.
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owequitit
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
P54, that is an interesting link thread you found there.
In this thread, I am having a debate with owequitit on a similar subject: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1105599&page_number=3&news_item_id=1105544
owequitit claimed that I "sensationalized" the performance of the Accord Sport 6MT, when all I did was post the link to the C&D test data and state that I hadn't found any other midsize sedan with a naturally aspirated I4 engine that performed as well.
It is interesting to see that owequitit expected a 0.5 second increase in 0-60 times for the automatic.
In my thread, I pointed out that the Motor Trend test showed that the 9G Accord in fact achieved a 0.9 second advantage over the outgoing 8G Accord (7.7 seconds for 9G versus 8.6 seconds for 8G)
Honda achieved 180% of owequitit's expectations for increase in acceleration where CVT models are concerned, and 260% of his expectation if one looks at MT models.
I just don't know what he expects in terms of performance from a mainstream midsize sedan. Either he has unrealistic expectations for a $25k family car, or he is arguing in bad faith (basically pursuing a strategy of complaining no matter what Honda does).
I tend to think that owequitit's expectations are unrealistic in this case. He has stated that he wants a performance oriented powertrain with exhaust-side VTEC, freer flowing exhaust, and less emphasis on emissions. All of this is reasonable in the context of a sports car, and I agree with him that Honda hasn't put much effort here. His demands do not make much sense to me in the context of a family car, where engine power is less of a concern, and ride quality, NVH, and electronics are a higher priority.
Basically, he's justifiably angry that Honda hasn't put any effort into next generation performance oriented powertrains, and using those justifications to attack Honda's mainstream offerings, which makes no sense.
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Since you want to drag mud from thread to thread, I am going to smear your face in it here too.
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1105599&page_number=3&news_item_id=1105544
You did sensationalize it.
You picked a best case case scenario (Car and Driver's MT Sport results) with no basis for comparison. You then claimed it to be a result of the engine. That is implied by the fact that prior to your claimed post, I made a statement about Honda not upping the bar in terms of engine performance. You then attempted, unsuccessfully, to PROVE that they did, when you failed to factor in the numerous other aspects of acceleration like gearing, weight, and drag. Which I have since disputed in the other thread as well. I also provided a far superior data sample to your hand picked results, and fully discussed the results over there.
Once again, you challenged and lost. You assumed I couldn't counter, when in actuality I simply didn't want to spend the time digging through the data. So there, no you can have egg on your face in two threads instead of 1.
Also, as a word of advice, if I were you, I would probably not attach my credibility to that of P54 because he is about the second least credible member here next to Dr. Whiner (formerly known as Blue_Sky_Surfer). Certainly, jumping on his propaganda bandwagon isn't going to get you far, and attempting to drag me through the mud in multiple threads is REALLY not going to get you very far. You defintely shot yourself in the foot by assuming that P54's interpretation of my statement was correct as I was referring to 1/4 mile time, not 0-60. Of course, based on the pretty plain language text quoted right in P54's post, that should have been abundantly clear to anyone with a high school sophomore level public education. Especially considering that I specifically referenced the 1/4 mile at the beginning of the paragraph. You guys can't even misuse my words in your propaganda correctly. If you are going to invent/support propaganda and smear campaign, please do yourself a favor and make sure it is at least twisted enough to be plausible.
No atomic, you are completely wrong. I am justifiably angry that Honda has put not ANY significant improvement into virtually any engines they make. Of course it only makes sense if you can look past the test results. In the most important segments, it has been absolutely incremental, if at all. Their two most important engines (Civic 4 cylinder and Accord 4 cylinder) are the most guilty. Even the V6 doesn't accomplish much in the way of power improvement. It will be interesting to see how effective VCM is in the sedan and coupe autos now that both V6 engines have VTEC back and will be able to be compared MPG wise a little better. The lack of performance anything is bad, but it is far from the only justifiable problem.
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NealX
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^What's especially amusing is that Shawn states essentially the same thing yet they won't dare go after HIM on it. And I believe both SC and owe post with somewhat equal authority.
Pick your targets carefully.
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atomiclightbulb
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owequitit wrote:
Especially considering that I specifically referenced the 1/4 mile at the beginning of the paragraph. You guys can't even misuse my words in your propaganda correctly. If you are going to invent/support propaganda and smear campaign, please do yourself a favor and make sure it is at least twisted enough to be plausible. |
First, I apologize for misrepresenting your statement. I got it wrong that time.
| No atomic, you are completely wrong. I am justifiably angry that Honda has put not ANY significant improvement into virtually any engines they make. Of course it only makes sense if you can look past the test results. In the most important segments, it has been absolutely incremental, if at all. Their two most important engines (Civic 4 cylinder and Accord 4 cylinder) are the most guilty. |
What is wrong with incremental progress? As far as I can remember, it has always been this way with Honda where their mainstream offerings are concerned. For example, the 4G USDM Accord started out with a 125 HP F-series engine around 1990, and that same basic F-series block was still in use by the time the 6G Accord was around, 12 years later, making 150 HP.
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