RolledaNsx
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At the moment it is about $1,500 USD per kilowatt.
Some people was wondering the cost of the Honda Clarity
to produce..... $350,000
Today it would cost around $ 150,000
The goal for the new fuel cell release in 2015; they hope to cut that cost in half or more because their going to share the design burden with all the auto companies.
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MalcolmR
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RolledaNsx: what did you mean by this?| share the design burden with all the auto companies |
What has Honda said about actual implementation of this? What will it involve?
Malcolm
:)
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RolledaNsx
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Everybody is doing research on fuel cells now and their finding ways to get away from the pricey catalyst in the system and that will also make them smaller.
The Govts(funding battery research) don't see it yet but the auto companies now know the future is fuel cells.
NASA learned that in the 1960's!
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TonyEX
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Everybody is doing research on fuel cells now and their finding ways to get away from the pricey catalyst in the system and that will also make them smaller.
The Govts(funding battery research) don't see it yet but the auto companies now know the future is fuel cells.
NASA learned that in the 1960's!
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At one point AHM was working with Ballard up in BC. Other companies were too....
Eventually, Ballard sold its automotive fuel cell research to Ford (and Benz) because it felt that it was not worth it.
Honda went its own way with its own research. It's the only one that has significantly moved forward. It reached acceptable cold weather performance several years ago and then started the FCX program.
I think most other automakers are licensing the Ford/Ballard designs still. Most other automakers are not doing much.
Specially when Obama killed the hydrogen alternative fuel program- Government Motors does not have one...
The Gov has not funded any automotive hydrogen fuel cell work since 2009. But they are lavishing our tax dollars on the GM Volt.
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P54
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Whatever the Government do they have a habit of spending tax dollars on failures.
Another 'green energy' company collapses - Government-funded battery maker files for bankruptcy
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1905016682001/
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RolledaNsx
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The problem is the fuel cells need to get away from the platinum catalyst to be cost effective.
The research now is all at university level and small private labs.They need money like the money thrown at lithium-ion battery research to advance faster.
But the one sector who is holding that up and spending money on Govt to not support fuel cell research is the Utility Companies.
THEY DON'T WANT CHEAP FUEL CELLS FOR THAT ANYBODY CAN BUY AND PRODUCE THEIR OWN POWER AT THEIR HOME!!
Because if they get rid of the platinum out of the system it can run on natural gas or biofuels! It can now but the system will fail to fast(anything other than hydrogen eats the platinum).
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spyder5786
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Figures you would be an avid Fox news follower. Explains a lot.
P54 wrote:
Whatever the Government do they have a habit of spending tax dollars on failures.
Another 'green energy' company collapses - Government-funded battery maker files for bankruptcy
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1905016682001/
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P54
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spyder5786 wrote:
Figures you would be an avid Fox news follower. Explains a lot.
P54 wrote:
Whatever the Government do they have a habit of spending tax dollars on failures.
Another 'green energy' company collapses - Government-funded battery maker files for bankruptcy
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1905016682001/
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I'm not sure how to interpret your comment, however if you feel FOX news is not credible here is some other links:
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/16/14487810-government-funded-battery-maker-files-for-bankruptcy?lite
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2012/10/16/a123-systems-bankruptcy/1636807/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-16/electric-car-battery-maker-a123-systems-files-bankruptcy.html
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/278362/11/US-funded-battery-maker-files-for-bankruptcy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16/battery-maker-a123-bankruptcy_n_1970690.html
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/another-green-failure-battery-maker-that-received-249-million-from-admin-files-for-bankruptcy/#
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HONDA AFVM
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Everybody is doing research on fuel cells now and their finding ways to get away from the pricey catalyst in the system and that will also make them smaller.
The Govts(funding battery research) don't see it yet but the auto companies now know the future is fuel cells.
NASA learned that in the 1960's!
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Not sure where you are getting your info from, but..................Honda isn't sharing anything when they spent hundreds of millions to do all the R&D........They might SELL it at a premium price to other manufactures like Toyota did with the Synergy system for Prius, but I doubt, no...I KNOW Honda isn't just going to open it's doors for good will and allow sharing.......
I must be misreading your post????
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RolledaNsx
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HONDA AFVM
Yes..... your mis-reading my post.
The Europeans are starting to push fuel cells to the general public.
The military been researching them for a while and NASA has a great one they used in the shuttle ( designed in the 70's... friend of the family was the project lead at Rockwell).
So it won't be only Honda working on it and if they can get total production up to 500,000 a year.....cost will fall from $1500 a kw to about $50 a kw even with platinum in it.... if they all share the burden and make one cell for all.
And yes...Honda is in talks about this.
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TonyEX
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RolledaNsx wrote:
The problem is the fuel cells need to get away from the platinum catalyst to be cost effective.
The research now is all at university level and small private labs.They need money like the money thrown at lithium-ion battery research to advance faster.
But the one sector who is holding that up and spending money on Govt to not support fuel cell research is the Utility Companies.
THEY DON'T WANT CHEAP FUEL CELLS FOR THAT ANYBODY CAN BUY AND PRODUCE THEIR OWN POWER AT THEIR HOME!!
Because if they get rid of the platinum out of the system it can run on natural gas or biofuels! It can now but the system will fail to fast(anything other than hydrogen eats the platinum).
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I dunno about that.
First off, Honda is spending lots of money on fuel cell research.
Second, Currently Southern California Edison is beginning to get into the residential solar panel business... In essence they install it and rent it to you.
And remember, fuel cells need hydrogen to work... so with a solar system you could run a reformer and use that to produce hydrogen from your gas line to power the fuel cell while the sun's out.
That combination plays to both the Power and the Gas Companies. In essence, you swap your power payments for rentals on the equipment.. and natural gas is dirt cheap, and much more available -currently- in NA than oil.
And guess who is building such a system?
That's right.. HMC in Japan.
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/SolarHydrogenStation/
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TonyEX
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RolledaNsx wrote:
HONDA AFVM
Yes..... your mis-reading my post.
The Europeans are starting to push fuel cells to the general public.
The military been researching them for a while and NASA has a great one they used in the shuttle ( designed in the 70's... friend of the family was the project lead at Rockwell).
So it won't be only Honda working on it and if they can get total production up to 500,000 a year.....cost will fall from $1500 a kw to about $50 a kw even with platinum in it.... if they all share the burden and make one cell for all.
And yes...Honda is in talks about this.
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Why would Honda be in talks to share their Intellectual Property when they have spent so much money to push so far forward?
I very much doubt that.
Also, I doubt very much we'll see a UNIVERSAL fuel cell design. I'm pretty sure we'll see lots of different types just as we see lots of different engine types. This is called market competition.
Of course, the Socialists in Europe might want to push a homogeneous design dictated by the Gov.
The Soviets tried that.. and the end result was what the Western Democracies built sized as a pack of cigarettes, the Soviets built sizes as a full sized refrigerator. And while the West made money off it, the Soviets took expensive Five Year Plans and several Directorates and Comissars to push through.
OH, BTW, Milspec parts for the DOD and NASA won't work for an automobile. Those designs are over designed, over engineered and over priced for a commercial product. After all, if the fuel cell in an Apollo Command Module failed you could die, while if this happens in a car, you call a tow truck.
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RolledaNsx
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Honda is too small of a player to risk their future on fuel cells.
They don't have the money. They will research them and test them(lease a few 100).
They need money or government help to start a fuel cell company.You see honda doesn't make their own li-ion batteries,they just put up capital and made a partnership with a battery company to make them.They need the same thing with fuel cells.
Some auto companies are in talks now to join in a partnerships to make fuel cells because the govts at the moment won't help.
So tonyE where did you get the socialist idea.
Also at the moment fuel cells are like tv's,cells,computer....when you buy it it's already outdated!!!
Something better is coming out of the labs every few months!
So why would a company jump on a design and spend billions to manufactor it and find out they picked the wrong design.
Too early for that...give it another 10 years.
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RolledaNsx
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I'll just make it simple.
Honda is working on a new fuel cell car due around 2015.
1)If honda has to do the fuel cell alone the car will be sold for a loss(will be leased).So only very few will be made!
Honda doesn't want to do that!!!! They want to sell it to the public and also make money.
2)To do that... they either have to design a fuel cell that doesn't use platinum or go into a partnership with other companies to raise production to lower costs
Thats it.... very simple
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TonyEX
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RolledaNsx wrote:
I'll just make it simple.
Honda is working on a new fuel cell car due around 2015.
1)If honda has to do the fuel cell alone the car will be sold for a loss(will be leased).So only very few will be made!
Honda doesn't want to do that!!!! They want to sell it to the public and also make money.
2)To do that... they either have to design a fuel cell that doesn't use platinum or go into a partnership with other companies to raise production to lower costs
Thats it.... very simple
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They could sell the completed fuel cells to other companies... that will increase volume without selling out the Intellectual Property.
Here's more info on volume:
http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media-room/news-room/honda-toyota-nissan-and-hyundai-sign-nordic-fuel-cell-car-deal/801466870.html
Here's the interesting part about platinum being replaced
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/headlines/hydrogen/
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RolledaNsx
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Cobalt-graphene fuel cell
to this date the longest test was 17 hours(at that rate maybe it will ready in 100 years)
nearly as well as platinum(after only 17hrs of testing,how about after 100,500,1000 hours?)
for your info there been non-platinum fuel cells since the 80's
they just don't work as well or last long!
they will not sell their fuel cell research
just looking for an partner to share the cost
to go main stream...somebody with good fuel cell research
themselves.
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HONDA AFVM
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Cobalt-graphene fuel cell
to this date the longest test was 17 hours(at that rate maybe it will ready in 100 years)
nearly as well as platinum(after only 17hrs of testing,how about after 100,500,1000 hours?)
for your info there been non-platinum fuel cells since the 80's
they just don't work as well or last long!
they will not sell their fuel cell research
just looking for an partner to share the cost
to go main stream...somebody with good fuel cell research
themselves.
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Roll...........
So as you know, I have a source AND I am very close with the person who runs the FCX distribution.....(He and my source are not the same person) I was there 2 months ago with him, I drove the car and yes there is a hint of a change in the near future, but if Honda gives up any technology, it will be at a GREAT cost to who ever want's to share it.
As far as your "Fuel cell out of date like computers, cell phones and TV's".......JOKE!!!! Honda is not already out of date......NOBODY can catch them in this market and they are all trying to match Honda, but the pattens are taken.......Gen3 Fuel cell will prove to be so advanced, it will sin the heads off of the competition.......See, Honda saw the Fuel Cell opportunity in the late 90's, accelerated in the early 2000's and now have the Hydrogen Electric in the bag....As in a post a few weeks ago, I mentioned the use of "fuel cell/electric", how Honda has changed their wording to move away from the word "hydrogen"........
I think you're dead WRONG Roll.......Show me where you are getting your info, do you work for Honda or do you have a source.........???? I can only say a little of what I know, but what you are saying is not in anything I have heard.....
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