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DCR
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TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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superchg2
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DCR wrote:
TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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DCR, what did you think of the ST over all?
It kicked ass against the Mazdaspeed and GTI in the new R&T.
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DCR
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I drove one with the Recaros. so sticker was north of 28k. The salesman offered me the car for invoice, which was really quite a nice price all considered. I've got wide shoulders and back, so the seats were a little uncomfortable at first, and I spent a few minutes messing with adjustments but nothing is going to remove the more slanted bolsters of the Recaro. They would flatten a hair over time, so that isn't a worry.
The interior sure looked nice to me...I am not sure who would complain about it in this class even at base model ST. Granted, the non-LCD screen version probably looks worse, but the dash, doors, etc all have a nice fit and finish. The armrest seems to be plagued with the same issues as the Civic and new Accord...it doesn't move and it jams my elbow in the wrong place.
The drive was interesting, as I was able to go alone, and simply instructed to "keep it on four wheels". I let the car warm up and got familiar with the layout. The clutch position seemed a bit odd...it fatigued my left ankle/shin pretty quickly. I am not sure if I could have adjusted this out with the seat, but the pedal seemed a bit too far too the right, and too high.
I started out slow, checking all visibility points, and I had no problems at all seeing out of this thing. I took a mile loop once just flicking the shifter, and getting a feel for where the engine was happiest, where the boost edges were, etc, and then on my next mile loop, I opened it up a few times. In 2nd, I loaded it up and man...this car will put you back in your seat pretty quick and the engine/exhaust sound is amazing. It has a very pronounced growl and you will find yourself revving and squirting the throttle just to feel and hear it. There is some torque steer, and once or twice, the road surface plus boost wanted to wrestle with me at the wheel, but the car never feels like it will break loose. Here in Michigan, we have those stupid "Michigan turns", which is a median left hand U-Turn. I found a new use for these, as you can really test handling on a tight turn like that, and legally. The ST bit so hard around the hard left that it will almost turn your guts over. I expected to have to brake in the middle of it, but nope...and applying the throttle coming out shot the car right out of the hole.
This is one of those cars that just makes you smile when you open it up. You know when you are in a car that was engineered and designed to excite the guy who likes to drive, and the ST nails it.
Would I own one? Yes, I would...without a doubt.
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TonyEX
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I'm gonna get a burro and slap an Si sticker on its ass.
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superchg2
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Thanks DCR!
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S600=Dream
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I only have two major quibbles with the ST.
It's big, and it's ugly.
Other than that, it looks like a solid product.
That said, it'd be one to lease and give back. A FOMOCO product with a turbocharger and DI...reliability called, said LOL, and walked away.
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
I drove one with the Recaros. so sticker was north of 28k. The salesman offered me the car for invoice, which was really quite a nice price all considered. I've got wide shoulders and back, so the seats were a little uncomfortable at first, and I spent a few minutes messing with adjustments but nothing is going to remove the more slanted bolsters of the Recaro. They would flatten a hair over time, so that isn't a worry.
The interior sure looked nice to me...I am not sure who would complain about it in this class even at base model ST. Granted, the non-LCD screen version probably looks worse, but the dash, doors, etc all have a nice fit and finish. The armrest seems to be plagued with the same issues as the Civic and new Accord...it doesn't move and it jams my elbow in the wrong place.
The drive was interesting, as I was able to go alone, and simply instructed to "keep it on four wheels". I let the car warm up and got familiar with the layout. The clutch position seemed a bit odd...it fatigued my left ankle/shin pretty quickly. I am not sure if I could have adjusted this out with the seat, but the pedal seemed a bit too far too the right, and too high.
I started out slow, checking all visibility points, and I had no problems at all seeing out of this thing. I took a mile loop once just flicking the shifter, and getting a feel for where the engine was happiest, where the boost edges were, etc, and then on my next mile loop, I opened it up a few times. In 2nd, I loaded it up and man...this car will put you back in your seat pretty quick and the engine/exhaust sound is amazing. It has a very pronounced growl and you will find yourself revving and squirting the throttle just to feel and hear it. There is some torque steer, and once or twice, the road surface plus boost wanted to wrestle with me at the wheel, but the car never feels like it will break loose. Here in Michigan, we have those stupid "Michigan turns", which is a median left hand U-Turn. I found a new use for these, as you can really test handling on a tight turn like that, and legally. The ST bit so hard around the hard left that it will almost turn your guts over. I expected to have to brake in the middle of it, but nope...and applying the throttle coming out shot the car right out of the hole.
This is one of those cars that just makes you smile when you open it up. You know when you are in a car that was engineered and designed to excite the guy who likes to drive, and the ST nails it.
Would I own one? Yes, I would...without a doubt.
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The blue one to the left looks really good, although the silver pony 2 spots down looks even better...
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superchg2
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DCR wrote:
this car will put you back in your seat pretty quick and the engine/exhaust sound is amazing. It has a very pronounced growl and you will find yourself revving and squirting the throttle just to feel and hear it.
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I guess it's got one of them new fangled engine gramophone's that pipes the engine's sounds into the interior!
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owequitit
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DCR wrote:
TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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Which pretty much supports the point that if you are hunting for "torque" you still are not hunting for an Si.
Of course, then you have the Mazdaspeed, GTI, upcoming SRT-4, the Mini Cooper/Clubman/Countryman and whatever upcoming small sporty car GM may or may not produce.
Throw in the fact that the GTI, MS3, and ST all have a substantially higher quality feel, and it doesn't bode well for the Si IMO. Not only will the boosted MS3/ST/GTI be substantially more powerful at low-midrange speeds, but they have more flexibility, more usability and a lot more performance potential to the prospective tuner.
Personally, I would lean toward the GTI most likely, although I have to admit that the ST is a pretty compelling package as well. Especially in that blue color.
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owequitit
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superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
this car will put you back in your seat pretty quick and the engine/exhaust sound is amazing. It has a very pronounced growl and you will find yourself revving and squirting the throttle just to feel and hear it.
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I guess it's got one of them new fangled engine gramophone's that pipes the engine's sounds into the interior!
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Apparently a large part of the reason Euro designed cars are using these is because in order to meet stringent Euro sound regulations, they have to make the car too quiet, and these devices allow them to get the sound back into the cabin. Realistically, it probably allows them to filter out unwanted noise as well.
What sucks is that Honda's engines used to be glorious enough to not need these and still be easily the best sounding engines in class.
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P54
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TonyE wrote:
I'm gonna get a burro and slap an Si sticker on its ass.
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Here is one for you:
$0 due at lease signing
Excludes taxes, titles, and dealer fees.
$0 security deposit
$0 down payment
$0 first month's payment
$29 per month for 35 months thereafter
Disclaimer: Might not pass California emission standards :-)
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Jack Poland
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superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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DCR, what did you think of the ST over all?
It kicked ass against the Mazdaspeed and GTI in the new R&T.
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Yea i was not surprised that R & T, didn't include the SI in that comparo, especially since the GTI was in there.
I think it's the automotive world telling Honda that they are getting boring, so they just won't acknowldege them.
I mean honestly in the early 2000's it seems like Car and Driver and Road Track were advertisers for Honda and BMW as most of the comparo went to either one.
As far as the Focus ST, I wouldn't buy a ford with a turbo sorry, I commend them for trying though. Kind of remind s me of the SRT-4, I don't see many of those on the road anymore. It's a nice car though but i think they targeting that is not theirs.
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superchg2
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Jack Poland wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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DCR, what did you think of the ST over all?
It kicked ass against the Mazdaspeed and GTI in the new R&T.
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Yea i was not surprised that R & T, didn't include the SI in that comparo, especially since the GTI was in there.
I think it's the automotive world telling Honda that they are getting boring, so they just won't acknowldege them.
I mean honestly in the early 2000's it seems like Car and Driver and Road Track were advertisers for Honda and BMW as most of the comparo went to either one.
As far as the Focus ST, I wouldn't buy a ford with a turbo sorry, I commend them for trying though. Kind of remind s me of the SRT-4, I don't see many of those on the road anymore. It's a nice car though but i think they targeting that is not theirs.
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The SRT-4 was hard core, especially the factory exhaust they came with.
Since Honda decided to take the enthusiast edge off the 9G,
it just can't hang with this group of cars any more, and the 154 m.p.h. ST has now raised the bar even higher.
The next gen., lighter GTI with available performance package looks like another strong performer in the pipeline.
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JP
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superchg2 wrote:
Jack Poland wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
DCR wrote:
TonyE wrote:
but the current Si is very fast to drive at low and middle speeds
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I just drove a 2013 Focus ST. The 51 hp and 100 ft lbs of torque over the Si in that car might make me think about a "fast" car at low to middle speeds.
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DCR, what did you think of the ST over all?
It kicked ass against the Mazdaspeed and GTI in the new R&T.
|
Yea i was not surprised that R & T, didn't include the SI in that comparo, especially since the GTI was in there.
I think it's the automotive world telling Honda that they are getting boring, so they just won't acknowldege them.
I mean honestly in the early 2000's it seems like Car and Driver and Road Track were advertisers for Honda and BMW as most of the comparo went to either one.
As far as the Focus ST, I wouldn't buy a ford with a turbo sorry, I commend them for trying though. Kind of remind s me of the SRT-4, I don't see many of those on the road anymore. It's a nice car though but i think they targeting that is not theirs.
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The SRT-4 was hard core, especially the factory exhaust they came with.
Since Honda decided to take the enthusiast edge off the 9G,
it just can't hang with this group of cars any more, and the 154 m.p.h. ST has now raised the bar even higher.
The next gen., lighter GTI with available performance package looks like another strong performer in the pipeline.
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... And Honda looks like is doing like the lobster, going backward on the Si and Type-R terrain...
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P54
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superchg2 wrote:
"Since Honda decided to take the enthusiast edge off the 9G,
it just can't hang with this group of cars any more, and the 154 m.p.h. ST has now raised the bar even higher."
Various speed limits:
Your speed:
Consequences:
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superchg2
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xBeastx
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I guess I'll join in too...
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CarPhreakD
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At that price I'd wait for the next gen Golf with performance pack. That is a LOT of money for a Ford Focus... although knowing Ford, in a few years they'll have $4k off specials. The car wasn't really that fast on the InsideLine test compared to cars like the GTI and MS3 (actually, the Si wasn't that far behind either), but high temps on the day might have had something to do with it. I have some suspicion that the engine isn't as great as the numbers suggest, not just in terms of pure output (it might be closer to what the GTI is outputting actually), but also variable performance due to the atmospheric environment. When I get to see a teardown engine, I'll let you know =D =D
Owequitit: The 2006 Civic Si had its intake placed in a pretty specific spot in the chassis... to utilize the fender as a way to enhance its sound. That's why the Si sounded like a banshee almost all the time...
And you guys don't see any more SRT-4s because they were discontinued long time ago and their followup, the Caliber SRT-4, was a pile of crap. The original SRT-4, particularly the ACR, were extremely hard core and are SCCA and drag strip champions.
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superchg2
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CarPhreakD wrote:
That is a LOT of money for a Ford Focus... although knowing Ford, in a few years they'll have $4k off specials.
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I was thinking the same thing, especially when the ST starts to receive the rebates that Ford has come out with to move the other foci off the dealer's lots.
:)
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DCR
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CarPhreakD wrote:
At that price I'd wait for the next gen Golf with performance pack. That is a LOT of money for a Ford Focus... although knowing Ford, in a few years they'll have $4k off specials. The car wasn't really that fast on the InsideLine test compared to cars like the GTI and MS3 (actually, the Si wasn't that far behind either), but high temps on the day might have had something to do with it. I have some suspicion that the engine isn't as great as the numbers suggest, not just in terms of pure output (it might be closer to what the GTI is outputting actually), but also variable performance due to the atmospheric environment. When I get to see a teardown engine, I'll let you know =D =D
Owequitit: The 2006 Civic Si had its intake placed in a pretty specific spot in the chassis... to utilize the fender as a way to enhance its sound. That's why the Si sounded like a banshee almost all the time...
And you guys don't see any more SRT-4s because they were discontinued long time ago and their followup, the Caliber SRT-4, was a pile of crap. The original SRT-4, particularly the ACR, were extremely hard core and are SCCA and drag strip champions.
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Oh, it is plenty fast. Go test drive one.
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JP
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DCR wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
At that price I'd wait for the next gen Golf with performance pack. That is a LOT of money for a Ford Focus... although knowing Ford, in a few years they'll have $4k off specials. The car wasn't really that fast on the InsideLine test compared to cars like the GTI and MS3 (actually, the Si wasn't that far behind either), but high temps on the day might have had something to do with it. I have some suspicion that the engine isn't as great as the numbers suggest, not just in terms of pure output (it might be closer to what the GTI is outputting actually), but also variable performance due to the atmospheric environment. When I get to see a teardown engine, I'll let you know =D =D
Owequitit: The 2006 Civic Si had its intake placed in a pretty specific spot in the chassis... to utilize the fender as a way to enhance its sound. That's why the Si sounded like a banshee almost all the time...
And you guys don't see any more SRT-4s because they were discontinued long time ago and their followup, the Caliber SRT-4, was a pile of crap. The original SRT-4, particularly the ACR, were extremely hard core and are SCCA and drag strip champions.
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Oh, it is plenty fast. Go test drive one.
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doubt: daily driving perception... how "faster" is it compared to the '12 Si?
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DCR
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Is that a serious question?
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JP
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DCR wrote:
Is that a serious question?
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why not?
from the 0-60 numbers I can tell that is .3 seconds faster than the '12 Si. but that is in a drag race...
daily driver perception changes...
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JP
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JP wrote:
DCR wrote:
Is that a serious question?
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why not?
from the 0-60 numbers I can tell that is .3 seconds faster than the '12 Si. but that is in a drag race...
daily driver perception changes...
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which is ~ 26 ft or almost 2 car lengths...
something like 1 car length in 1st shift and then one more in 2nd shift and that's it...
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owequitit
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CarPhreakD wrote:
At that price I'd wait for the next gen Golf with performance pack. That is a LOT of money for a Ford Focus... although knowing Ford, in a few years they'll have $4k off specials. The car wasn't really that fast on the InsideLine test compared to cars like the GTI and MS3 (actually, the Si wasn't that far behind either), but high temps on the day might have had something to do with it. I have some suspicion that the engine isn't as great as the numbers suggest, not just in terms of pure output (it might be closer to what the GTI is outputting actually), but also variable performance due to the atmospheric environment. When I get to see a teardown engine, I'll let you know =D =D
Owequitit: The 2006 Civic Si had its intake placed in a pretty specific spot in the chassis... to utilize the fender as a way to enhance its sound. That's why the Si sounded like a banshee almost all the time...
And you guys don't see any more SRT-4s because they were discontinued long time ago and their followup, the Caliber SRT-4, was a pile of crap. The original SRT-4, particularly the ACR, were extremely hard core and are SCCA and drag strip champions.
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Honda says that is why they put the Si intake and way and I don't really doubt it, but the reality is that the older DOHC VTEC Honda's that didn't utilize such a circuitous intake plumbing and they still screamed like Banshees. It is also true if you put an aftermarket intake on them, where they still sound better. Ultimately, Honda put a lot of aural tuning into their engines in the past.
In fact, if anything, I think the Si's intake actually muffles a fair bit of the actual intake noise and really filters out some the frequencies, making the car sound just a little less vigorous and vocal when compared to older cars such as the 99-00 Si, Prelude VTEC, and Integra GS-R/Type R.
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DCR
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JP wrote:
JP wrote:
DCR wrote:
Is that a serious question?
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why not?
from the 0-60 numbers I can tell that is .3 seconds faster than the '12 Si. but that is in a drag race...
daily driver perception changes...
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which is ~ 26 ft or almost 2 car lengths...
something like 1 car length in 1st shift and then one more in 2nd shift and that's it...
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ST:
Power: 252 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque: 270 lb-ft @ 2700 rpm
Si:
Power: 201 hp @ 7000 rpm
Torque: 170 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm
For "daily driving" the ST felt like it was on power no matter what I was doing, and it really felt like it when I hammered it.
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jshaw
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Just for fun, the ST is about 250lbs heavier than the Si sedan, and pipes in, "engine noises," via the speakers to make it sound... meatier.
I still think it should be faster for daily driving, but I've had my share of turbocharged cars (mostly test drives, for obvious reasons), and never liked any of them. Especially BMWs, though maybe Ford can do better?
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CivicB18
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jshaw wrote:
Just for fun, the ST is about 250lbs heavier than the Si sedan, and pipes in, "engine noises," via the speakers to make it sound... meatier.
I still think it should be faster for daily driving, but I've had my share of turbocharged cars (mostly test drives, for obvious reasons), and never liked any of them. Especially BMWs, though maybe Ford can do better?
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It's extremely sad and disappointing that Honda USED TO BE the go to brand for top notch sport compacts and now the Si simply exists. I'm really hoping Honda has something desirable in the pipeline for the Si.
~Patrick
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BachelorFrog
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This thread /sigh!
wanna bet 10 bucks that 2013 Si will have 0 hp gain and same suspension.
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superchg2
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CivicB18 wrote:
jshaw wrote:
Just for fun, the ST is about 250lbs heavier than the Si sedan, and pipes in, "engine noises," via the speakers to make it sound... meatier.
I still think it should be faster for daily driving, but I've had my share of turbocharged cars (mostly test drives, for obvious reasons), and never liked any of them. Especially BMWs, though maybe Ford can do better?
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It's extremely sad and disappointing that Honda USED TO BE the go to brand for top notch sport compacts and now the Si simply exists. I'm really hoping Honda has something desirable in the pipeline for the Si.
~Patrick
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The MMC Si is coming later this year. Beyond that, the pipeline appears to be empty.
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