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hondadude
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Great article Zac Estrada!
http://jalopnik.com/5945551/dear-honda-its-time-to-throw-america-a-bone-and-give-us-a-civic-type-r
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DCR
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All I have been able to do in the past is watch from a distance with these cars, and this is one of my favorite TG segments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeGAmcLYGQ8
The reason why...is I wonder what my 2003 Civic Si would have been like in Type-R trim. Of course, I probably couldn't have afforded it then, but I can now, so IF they build it...it better be good, no matter where they sell it.
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330R
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I've been bewildered by the absence of the Civic Type-R in the US for so long, it's basically all a blur. What, 1998... 14 years now? I've formulated, asked politely, pleaded, raged, seriously raged around 2007, and now, I'm empty. After all that, the way I feel about it, from all the opportunities they've squandered, if Honda is just that f**king stupid, then they deserve to lose out on us like we've lost out on them with things like the CTR. I'm not going to beg and plead and feed their massive ego yet again, just to clue them in to the obvious - which I'm sure they have teams of "market experts" on their payroll to contradict.
Other than perhaps the first two sentences, I think this reply to the article makes some good points:
Honestly at this point, who cares? The whole Honda thing is so played now anyways. They had an obscenely huge window to capitalize on the import craze and they pussyfooted around until everyone lost interest. Meanwhile at the height of this period the USDM DC2R Integras came and went, ditto the NSX, both to be replaced with nothing, and the EP3 Si was a half assed attempt at who knows what, all leaving nothing but a sore middle finger for serious enthusiasts. And ever since right around that time they've had the balls to keep their prices on the rise although quality has been in steady decline. Way to treat your loyal customers. Honda wrote the book on how to make econoboxes cool, but now it just seems like they've lost their passion and are letting the bean counters run the show. I'll bet all the other auto manufacturers would kill for half of the opportunities that Honda pisses away.
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nightflow
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An old episode of Best Motoring Vol 32: Civic Type R Returns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIcXSbixd4Y
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mobis21
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I thought the Euro Type-R is inferior to the USA Civic Si. The Euro Type R is powered by the same engine, but no limited slip diff, beam axle rear suspension.
Are you guys having a "grass is always greener" moment?
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DCR
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mobis21 wrote:
I thought the Euro Type-R is inferior to the USA Civic Si. The Euro Type R is powered by the same engine, but no limited slip diff, beam axle rear suspension.
Are you guys having a "grass is always greener" moment?
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No, but you are having another "The ToV Honda Performance Enthusiast is always wrong" moment.
How the fuck are you still able to post here?
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330R
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mobis21 wrote:
I thought the Euro Type-R is inferior to the USA Civic Si. The Euro Type R is powered by the same engine, but no limited slip diff, beam axle rear suspension.
Are you guys having a "grass is always greener" moment?
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The last one, the FN2 Fit-based "Civic" was a "Type-R" only by marketing/branding. It was more of an Si hatch, minus LSD, like you said. The real CTR last time around was the FD2 sedan in Japan. Before that, the EP3 was an actual Civic hatch, and existed at the same time as the DC5 Integra Type-R. Then before that was the EK9 CTR and the DC2 ITR.
Who knows how the next CTR for Europe will be spec'd out. They might work out a way to put a multilink rear on it while keeping a place for gas, er, petrol. I think the point of the article is, Ito announces plans for a new CTR for Europe, Jalopnik author says "don't forget about us this time". I think the author is wrong in a couple of places, in that I think our FG2/FA5 Civic Si was just as good or better than the FN2, and also he claimed, "Honda, you used to give us the same great Civics you supplied the rest of the world with". Well, yes and no. We used to get the hatches as well as sedans, but we've been shortchanged on engines and features going on decades now, compared to Japan.
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330R
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Thought I'd put this here for some eye candy. Check out this guy's other clips, too. Seems to be a Honda specialty garage or dealership with a Honda geek dream garage...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9q8LMa5OVQ&feature=share&list=ULc9q8LMa5OVQ
They have a Mugen RR, too :o
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TonyEX
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hondadude wrote:
Great article Zac Estrada!
http://jalopnik.com/5945551/dear-honda-its-time-to-throw-america-a-bone-and-give-us-a-civic-type-r
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The 97 and 99 ITRs did not sell very well in the US.
The 97, in particular, without AC, rear wiper, sound insulation and stereo was a sales bust.
The 99 had to include all of those things and even then sales were low, even though the price was attractive.
There was no 98 because the 97s were on dealer lots. I don't think there were 00s either.
Because the Type R is such a specific spec in Honda-speak, they have given us Si's not Rs.
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Ultima
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Clearly, non-enthusiast are in the majority here at TOV, making excuses for why Honda shouldn't bring a Type R model over is beyond stupid. For the record, there is no such thing as a 1999 ITR in the US....
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TonyEX
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Ultima wrote:
Clearly, non-enthusiast are in the majority here at TOV, making excuses for why Honda shouldn't bring a Type R model over is beyond stupid. For the record, there is no such thing as a 1999 ITR in the US....
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Really?
For "the record"?
Let me see... so the whole row of brand new Championship White ITRs lined up on the north parking lot at AHM, all with rear wipers, all with AC... were a pigment of the non enthusiast brains of my wife and I? While we parked our non enthusiast GS-R... or, of course, since we have a '12 Si, we're not enthusiasts... after all the Si is just like a Camry, a sofa on wheels.
I don't think so, bud... on many, many counts.
http://hondamarketplace.com/showthread.php?t=2818578
The bottom line is that AHM will not bring a CTR to the US because those are decontented and make little financial sense. A few years ago there was talk of AHM bringing in a number of Body On White Civic R's (or where they RSX-ITRs?) to the US to sell for only for racing.... I don't remember if the carried that idea through.
The bottom line is that AHM sells Si's in the US which are fully loaded with top of the line features and offer a far less manic ride that a Type R.
There simply is not the volume in sales to justify US certification of yet another model.
it would be a money loser, so given that, IMHO it makes more sense for HMC to build a new S2000 than importing/creating a CTR for NA.
So, who the fuck are is the stupid one now? Huh?
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TonyEX
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330R wrote:
mobis21 wrote:
I thought the Euro Type-R is inferior to the USA Civic Si. The Euro Type R is powered by the same engine, but no limited slip diff, beam axle rear suspension.
Are you guys having a "grass is always greener" moment?
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The last one, the FN2 Fit-based "Civic" was a "Type-R" only by marketing/branding. It was more of an Si hatch, minus LSD, like you said. The real CTR last time around was the FD2 sedan in Japan. Before that, the EP3 was an actual Civic hatch, and existed at the same time as the DC5 Integra Type-R. Then before that was the EK9 CTR and the DC2 ITR.
Who knows how the next CTR for Europe will be spec'd out. They might work out a way to put a multilink rear on it while keeping a place for gas, er, petrol. I think the point of the article is, Ito announces plans for a new CTR for Europe, Jalopnik author says "don't forget about us this time". I think the author is wrong in a couple of places, in that I think our FG2/FA5 Civic Si was just as good or better than the FN2, and also he claimed, "Honda, you used to give us the same great Civics you supplied the rest of the world with". Well, yes and no. We used to get the hatches as well as sedans, but we've been shortchanged on engines and features going on decades now, compared to Japan.
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Yes, I think you're right on that. The 8th gen was pretty hard core (killer buzz bomb) and had a better suspension (IRS)... However, I don't know that it was calibrated harder... however, as Shawn has noted a lot, it did have lots of potential.
As to the rest of the article, I think he was just being cute about it... it's was just a hook to get attention, I think.
OTOH, we do get the V6 with 6MT... Accords... can you get that anywhere else?
How about the TL 6MT SH-AWD? Can you get that outside of NA?
So, I'd say, that yes, for buzz bomb compacts, North America has been shortchanged but, OTOH, we get the fast big cars.
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Double J
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I believe that a CTR would sell in NA. That being said I don't think it would be a volume seller by any means. That's like thinking the F430 Scuderia was a volume model for Ferrari. These types of specialty "Race" models still have a strong position in the line up. If it loses money recoup from the lackluster marketing budget. These products are rolling marketing machines. Some people may be fine with GSR's and Si's but some of us want the pinnacle of performance. If future Type R's don't have any soul injected I will be at a loss for words.
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330R
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TonyE wrote:
The 97 and 99 ITRs did not sell very well in the US.
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Tony, I'm pretty sure I told ya before that the US did not get the ITR in 1999. However, Canada did.
TonyE wrote:
The 97, in particular, without AC, rear wiper, sound insulation and stereo was a sales bust.
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The US only received 318 ITRs in 1997. It wasn't that the car didn't sell; that's just all we got. Back then, the head was still being hand ported and polished. Only later did they use machines for that.
A/C was a dealer-installed accessory, just like various Civic CX and DX models over the years. But in the case of the ITR, it was because the car was intended to be more stripped down, track ready. A/C adds between 30-40lbs, IIRC.
In Honda's words:
Not only the 1997, but also the 1998, 2000, and 2001 lacked sound deadening.
Also, all the ITRs sold in the US had a six speaker AM/FM/CD stereo. (Why do I still have to correct people on this? I thought my dozen attempts at getting Blue_Sky_surfer to finally accept it would be enough)
TonyE wrote:
The 99 had to include all of those things and even then sales were low, even though the price was attractive.
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Replace '99 with '98. The 1998 added the rear wiper. Air conditioning? Still a dealer-installed accessory in 1998.
Sales in the US of the 1998 tripled to 1023. Again, the ITR was a limited production car.
TonyE wrote:
There was no 98 because the 97s were on dealer lots. I don't think there were 00s either.
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Well, this is just not correct at all. There was a 1998, and luckily for me a 2000, as well.
TonyE wrote:
Because the Type R is such a specific spec in Honda-speak, they have given us Si's not Rs. |
It was a specific spec (and I appreciated that) until this guy came along
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330R
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TonyE wrote:
...a CTR makes no business case in NA. This is based on the ITR... and the Prelude SH.
Both cars did not sell very well, at all, in NA. They were not halo cars, they were very good, top of the line -sport wise- but they did not sell well. The car that sold well was the Integra SE with leather... it had the GSR body kit but the GS's running gear and came with an 4AT.. that car sold! |
The Prelude SH: Car and Driver voted it the best handling car under $30,000. It was then brought along to compete in a group for the best handling car over $30,000. It just lost out to the winner of that test: the E36 M3.
The Integra Type-R: SCCA Touring Car champion straight away, and every year it raced after that. SCCA D-Stock autocross national champion every year it was campaigned. Instant name recognition - and yes, halo effect - in the import enthusiast community. Even the domestic guys knew what the car was about, and all but the most willfully ignorant respected it.
The Prelude SH was knocking on $30,000. Twelve years ago. The ITR was around $5000 cheaper, but hard to find, and a more compromising ride. Not that the Prelude was accommodating for more than two adults.
In my understanding, a halo car isn't necessarily a volume selling car. In the cases I can think of, it just isn't a volume selling car. It's a car to get people talking and get people into the showroom, and hopefully into a car. It may not be into that halo car necessarily. A halo car is to show what the manufacturer can do. It's to show they "get it". For Honda enthusiasts, it's a sport model usually. It doesn't have to be a flagship to be a halo. It doesn't have to be the most expensive car in the entire lineup, but it's probably the most expensive "trim" or "spec" of its respective model line.
A halo car not only isn't likely a high volume car, it's also not likely a profit machine. Honda was taking the ITR chassis off the production line, wheeling them around on dollies or jigs, to have their extra body reinforcements and thicker gussets welded on. I don't mean strut bars that are bolted in, I mean added welds and thicker sheetmetal. By the time of the DC5 (RSX), the Type-R didn't need that extra attention, because the chassis was stiff for even the base model. It got extra attention, but not to that level. Anyway, that kind of work, with all the goodies and differences between the GS-R and ITR, probably meant Honda didn't make much on the ITR in the US, or anywhere.
But we're still talking about TYPE-R cars today. The US saw a total of 3900 Type-Rs over 4 years. The newest one sold is 11 years old. Honda was selling at least 20,000 Civic Si coupes and sedans a year during 2007-2011, maybe closer to 30,000 since the coupe was already doing 15k in 2006 and the sedan was more popular. But we're still talking about Type-R cars. Why? Because they're a halo.
It's not always about sales. It can't be. How is a company going to stand out if everything is made to satisfy the masses?
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DCR
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330R wrote:
It's not always about sales. It can't be. How is a company going to stand out if everything is made to satisfy the masses?
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They can't.
I have said it a million times, and I will say it once more. The Type-R badge in the Civic line would print money for Honda, hand over fist. When done properly, and by that I mean the badge is honored and taken seriously, Honda can produce a street respected performance machine. What this does is give a Honda enthusiast something to be proud of, and something to brag about...and more importantly, something to want.
Think about the battles Ford and Chevy have had with the Mustang and Camaro...and the punches they trade to be the fastest at any given time. They throw money at the pride part of all of this, and lots of it. When you think of Ford, do you think of the mainstream boring F-150's (ignore the Raptor or Lightning for the moment) or the Taurus (ignore the SHO for the moment), or the Focus (ignore the ST for the moment)? I don't...to me Ford is the Mustang.
I have also said that Honda is the absolute worst at defending their brand heritage, almost as bad as they are at keeping the momentum going...and I stand by it. It is almost as if they can't see themselves the way we do.
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Chris David
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Good summary 330R. Bringing over the CTR would be a smart marketing move.
Look at all the money Honda spends on racing. IRL, Lemans, toruing cars series etc... And yet they have no sports cars to sell. What's the point of racing on Sunday if you have no sports cars to sell on Monday.
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TonyEX
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Can't say that I totally disagree since we did own a GSR and an SH.. and we came _this_ close to getting the ITR.
But again, I think the money for a halo car would best invested on a follow up to the S2K.
I'd love to see a RWD 2.2 liter S2200 roadster and a 2.4 liter C2400 2+2 seater close roof coupe.
Or better, if they played their cards right, there would be some sharing for two mid front engined, RWD cars.
A RWD S2200 roadster with a 2.2 DOHC iVTEC motor.
A RWD S3000 roadster with a 3.0 DOHC iVTEC motor.
A RWD C3000 2+2 coupe with a 3.0 DOHC iVTEC motor.
Now, those would be halo cars... ;-)
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notyper
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I remember my first S2000 meet that I went to here in SoCal. Met at a guy's house in Manhattan Beach. Lived in a nice gated housing development about a mile from the beach.
There were about 80 of us that showed up. Less than a year after the car launched. Well over half the people there had never owned a Honda before in their life. Some had traded in Porsches, BMWs or Mercedes to purchase the S2000. Others just ponied up the $35k-$40k in cash.
Average age was probably in the mid 30's. I was probably in the youngest quintile at 29 years old.
This was a group of well heeled, personable, successful people who saw something that really caught their attention in the S2000, bought it and absolutely fell in love. I had never gone to a single model car meet like this before, and while I attended a few more S2000 meets, I have never gone to a single model meet again since.
Even if Honda lost money on every S2000 (and I assure that with the volumes they sold, they did not), the interest in Honda that the car generated was well worth it. But here's the problem. Honda never took advantage of this tremendous love and owner loyalty. They never gave these folks a path to keep spending money with the brand, or move up to Acura. Oh, I'm sure a few were convinced to buy an Odyssey or a Pilot, maybe an MDX, but they were just a drop in the bucket compared to the revenue stream Honda _could_ have generated if they kept these people engaged and offered them new and better things to purchase every few years.
Unfortunately today, the glow of the S2000 has diminished a bit. A good number of the original owners have moved on. Some, I'd say 30-40% like me, plan to keep their original for a long time (forever). The other used cars are increasingly falling into the hands of people who are either using them as race cars, or bastardizing them into hellaflush-mobiles.
What a wasted opportunity.
SC
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Fan Koni
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I keep wondering how much Honda has really internalized that they have extremely lost on brand attractiveness for fans of older Hondas and how hard they are really working on this CTR.
They must know that in 2015 no major reaction will happen on another 1.6T hot hatch in Europe.
Surely they know that starting a numbers fight with e.g. Renault-Nissan will be absolutely of short effect and will be quickly stomped by an other trophy+ XYZ version with a few slight upgrades.
No way Honda can want to play that game against Renault in Europe.
Only if they capitalize on some NSX flare to make the CTR something special they stand any chance on really regaining brand attractiveness. E.g. a massively evolved "S+" feature would stand out.
If the news is all on 3 new Hybrid systems and efficiency, then they want to gain customers attracted by the most sporty hybrids as halo cars.
A CTR with some uber-Hybrid system seems ideal...
It could be something people would consider as being unique and a start of a new era.
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nash24
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DCR wrote:
330R wrote:
It's not always about sales. It can't be. How is a company going to stand out if everything is made to satisfy the masses?
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They can't.
I have said it a million times, and I will say it once more. The Type-R badge in the Civic line would print money for Honda, hand over fist. When done properly, and by that I mean the badge is honored and taken seriously, Honda can produce a street respected performance machine. What this does is give a Honda enthusiast something to be proud of, and something to brag about...and more importantly, something to want.
Think about the battles Ford and Chevy have had with the Mustang and Camaro...and the punches they trade to be the fastest at any given time. They throw money at the pride part of all of this, and lots of it. When you think of Ford, do you think of the mainstream boring F-150's (ignore the Raptor or Lightning for the moment) or the Taurus (ignore the SHO for the moment), or the Focus (ignore the ST for the moment)? I don't...to me Ford is the Mustang.
I have also said that Honda is the absolute worst at defending their brand heritage, almost as bad as they are at keeping the momentum going...and I stand by it. It is almost as if they can't see themselves the way we do.
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Dont jump down my throat but not the best examples, didnt chevy go under and got bailed out by the US government, didnt Ford go very close!
Ford v Holden (chevy) has same showdown in Australia and they both needed bailout money from the Australian government to keep making cars and will again.
Honda needs to bring back some sports cars definitely, but the NSX wont sell in huge numbers, the ones that can easily afford it will snub it because of the badge like the original and it wont make many people jump ship as they will decide whats best for them at time of purchase and not that honda has an NSX again, would u buy a honda then?
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JMU R1
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nash24 wrote:
Honda needs to bring back some sports cars definitely, but the NSX wont sell in huge numbers, the ones that can easily afford it will snub it because of the badge like the original and it wont make many people jump ship as they will decide whats best for them at time of purchase and not that honda has an NSX again, would u buy a honda then?
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I think these days there are plenty of people with money who are not slavish brand whores that would buy the NSX. Not to mention that the NSX brand has a cachet all its own to rely on.
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TonyEX
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AHM had an S2K in their main lobby for a loooong time.
All in all I spent many hours sitting in it waiting for my wife to be done (we used to carpool, I was working just a bit up the 405 then).
The car just felt perfect to me... even the color.
It was most unfortunate that we could not agree on the color and when finally we hit the lottery on an used press car it (a) had had $5000 of -repaired- track damage and (b) it was blue. So we passed.
And early one we saw one with the OEM hard top.. which became a Holy Grail because you could not find it.
I agree that HMC/AHM really missed the boat big time with the S2K. They should have leveraged it into three more cars: SWB roadster and LWB 2+2 convertible and coupe.
Sad, what a missed mark.
Forget the Si.. that was a mixed move, but the S2K was a BLOWN move.
Similarly the NSX... it should have spawned an open top roadster as well, with homologation for racing.
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mobis21
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DCR wrote:
mobis21 wrote:
I thought the Euro Type-R is inferior to the USA Civic Si. The Euro Type R is powered by the same engine, but no limited slip diff, beam axle rear suspension.
Are you guys having a "grass is always greener" moment?
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No, but you are having another "The ToV Honda Performance Enthusiast is always wrong" moment.
How the fuck are you still able to post here?
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WOW. How am I able to post here? Who the fuck are YOU!
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RolledaNsx
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per Honda UK Boss
uk.autoblog.com/2012/10/02/exclusive-uk-built-civic-r-will-be-an-icon/
good read!!!
not going to screw up this one
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