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MalcolmR
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Thank you danielgr. Much appreciated.
Thank you for staying the distance on this thread.
Your comments make much sense.
Priorities prevent detailed response today. Hopefully tomorrow.
Malcolm
:)
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Hondasrule
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DCR wrote:
Fuck no they aren't. The biggest mistake I ever made in my car purchasing life was a Civic hybrid, and whatever illusion I had about saving money is going to cost me in the long run because the gas mileage sucks and the resale is tanking by the day.
I will never buy one again, but if I had a gun in my mouth, it would be a Toyota Prius for sure. |
Frack, yes they are. The best decision I ever made in my car purchasing life is an Insight hybrid, and whatever illusion I had about saving fuel is going to reward me in the long run because the gas mileage rocks and the resale is taking a back seat for me every day.
I will buy one again*, and if I had a gun in my mouth, it would not be a Toyota Prius for sure.
This is to highlight how the same thing can be exactly the opposite to different people and still be true. It's clear Honda's current hybrid technology is not for DCR, but it certainly is for me.
* actually we just did.
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RSXCase
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Another benefit of hybrids in California is that they're exempt from the biennial smog check. That saves money and time. New diesels finally have to be smog checked.
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Bullwinkle
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To take things in a new direction, I think we all have to remember that hybrids are still what we in the computer industry call a "Developing area". That means that we probably not seen what will become the standard use of Hybrid technology.
From a pure engineering physics standpoint, Hybrid technology makes all kinds of sense. Store "excess" energy from the engine and from braking and use it when needed on acceleration to help the engine.
That said, I think what you are going to see is three main uses for hybrids:
1) Four wheel drive systems where the engine drives one axle and electric motors drive the other (SH-AWD in the NSX, RLX, MDX). Potential for weight saving and design flexibility by eliminating the driveshaft.
2) Using electric motors to help make engines smaller and more efficient. This means using the motor on startup and acceleration (where the IC engine is most inefficient). This would allow refining engines to produce high HP at relatively high revs. We would not care if they were torqueless at low RPMs, because the electric motor would kick in. This would allow simplification of engine design since the gas engines would no longer need to be "all-purpose" compromises.
3) All hybrids will be plug-ins. This just makes too much sense no to happen.
I firmly believe that in the not-too-distant future ALL cars with Internal Combustion Engines will be Hybrids of some sort. For solid engineering reasons.
I think the MDX and the NSX may be the first main-stream vehicles to be Hybrid-only. And if the MDX is hybrid-only, why wouldn't the Pilot, which is based on the MDX?
I am kinda surprised there will be a non-hybrid version of the RLX, but there you are.
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6SPDTL
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Simple answer. No they are not worth it. They are feel good crap for pseudo knowledgeable environutty people. If you want to save the planet buy a simple efficient 4 cylinder car. End of story.
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CarPhreakD
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6SPDTL wrote:
Simple answer. No they are not worth it. They are feel good crap for pseudo knowledgeable environutty people. If you want to save the planet buy a simple efficient 4 cylinder car. End of story.
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No way. There's obviously more to the story. Please, tell us more about the laws of thermodynamics.
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Fan Koni
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If people would stop buying cars because they didn't need them to "feel good", our world would change dramatically.
As long as CO2-climate experts feel millions of miles of jet travel to international meetings / summits are justified then there is a market for "environmental" cars.
Anyhow here is a nice easy to read study:
http://europe.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA80553711.PDF
Puts all into a nice picture - a trade off between EV,PHEV,Hybrids and ICE cars, all depending on battery price and fuel prices.
At the moment suppliers of components are having a comfortable av. 30% margin. This is extremely nice for a automotive supplier and never really of long duration in the industry.
At the same time fuel prices are prone to go some direction. Just let something happen in middle east and / or some major accident happen, at one of the many gas fracking sites which are stomped out of the ground.
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CarPhreakD
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Bullwinkle wrote:
To take things in a new direction, I think we all have to remember that hybrids are still what we in the computer industry call a "Developing area". That means that we probably not seen what will become the standard use of Hybrid technology.
From a pure engineering physics standpoint, Hybrid technology makes all kinds of sense. Store "excess" energy from the engine and from braking and use it when needed on acceleration to help the engine.
That said, I think what you are going to see is three main uses for hybrids:
1) Four wheel drive systems where the engine drives one axle and electric motors drive the other (SH-AWD in the NSX, RLX, MDX). Potential for weight saving and design flexibility by eliminating the driveshaft.
2) Using electric motors to help make engines smaller and more efficient. This means using the motor on startup and acceleration (where the IC engine is most inefficient). This would allow refining engines to produce high HP at relatively high revs. We would not care if they were torqueless at low RPMs, because the electric motor would kick in. This would allow simplification of engine design since the gas engines would no longer need to be "all-purpose" compromises.
3) All hybrids will be plug-ins. This just makes too much sense no to happen.
I firmly believe that in the not-too-distant future ALL cars with Internal Combustion Engines will be Hybrids of some sort. For solid engineering reasons.
I think the MDX and the NSX may be the first main-stream vehicles to be Hybrid-only. And if the MDX is hybrid-only, why wouldn't the Pilot, which is based on the MDX?
I am kinda surprised there will be a non-hybrid version of the RLX, but there you are.
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Well, the plug-in Accord hybrid is sort of the ultimate conclusion that we've been waiting for and expecting. A car that completely does away with a transmission, with simply a electrical component with the traditional ICE. Next obvious step would be complete remove of the FEAD, with the alternator simply gone, and electric water pumps being utilized. Since about a third of engine power goes into coolant and another third straight out the exhaust, you'd expect even greater advances in thermal management and either forced induction or some other method of exhaust gas energy recovery. Theoretically, we're talking about long stroke atkinson cycle engines that operate in a narrow RPM; with cooled high-flow EGR, DI, force induction, and perhaps return to lean burn if emissions can be controlled enough. Thermal efficiency might move into the 50% range for the ICE alone, couple that with the hybrid energy recapture components and you're talking about tripling the average efficiency of road vehicles today.
At some point, you would definitely expect hybrids to proliferate; we're already starting to see it and it's only been about a decade since the introduction of the Prius and Insight.
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DrWhiner
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Are hybrids worth it?
"Kodak is toast"
When? 1991.
Without advanced powertrain tech., the automaker is toast.
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Hondasrule
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6SPDTL wrote:
Simple answer. No they are not worth it. They are feel good crap for pseudo knowledgeable environutty people. If you want to save the planet buy a simple efficient 4 cylinder car. End of story.
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1. For how long do you think we should continue to buy a simple efficient 4 cylinder car as a solution to a non-renewable resource before we start migrating to a viable alternative? (not talking about climate change or protecting the environment here just alluding only to the finite oil supply part of it).
2. If you believe hybrid technology is the wrong path to migrate away from oil, what better alternative do you favor to power our vehicles? Sooner or later we will need to do something.
3. Would you participate early on in support of a technology you believe to be "the right approach", or will you wait until everyone else takes the plunge first?
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WongKN
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Total YTD sales for hybrids here in Malaysia for this year (2012) and as at August is estimated by Honda to be around 5,600 units. This was told to me when I asked them at an event earlier today. For breakdown and other minor extra details, I have put them into 'Honda Fan' (http://tovahondafan.blogspot.com/2012/09/honda-malaysia-sales-breakdown-of.html). Sorry to make you to go to another link for the data but not sure if everyone is interested in the details.
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MalcolmR
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danielgr.
Some useful points in your response.
My comments in bold below.
Please excuse the repetition. Rushing.
I've benefited from people's comments in this thread. Learned useful points and am now more open to the future potential of hybrids.
At present though they do not appeal in Australia and USA. Some people's comments in this thread explain the reason.
The answer to my question: Are hybrids worth it?
Generally not although it depends mightily on location and buyer.
In some applications in some countries hybrids are seen as well worth it.
Others not so.
It depends too on personal perspectives, needs and aspirations.
I certainly appreciate the choice they provide. I wonder though about their long-term market acceptance.
Time will tell. There's no right or wrong.
Given Honda's financial discipline Honda must see potential.
Maybe the hybrid in 10 years' time will offer all the many varied benefits discussed above together with lower price premium than currently.
Until then I'll prefer the simplicity of a non-hybrid.
And if I must buy a hybrid will choose a simpler Honda hybrid.
Appreciated everyone's comments. Especially Wong and danielgr.
Malcolm
:)
danielgr wrote:
MalcolmR wrote:
[...]
Too much sacrifice in performance in hybrids.
Battery reliability unknown.
[...]
Given that hybrids are touted for their economy benefits and sold as such, I find this statement amazing, quote| I don't know anyone buying a hybrid (now closing to being the majority buying non-kei cars from Honda and Toyota) doing maths to find out if they'll save money. |
[...]
For me, in terms of efficiency and resource usage I cannot see the benefit of dragging around a second engine and battery. Especially if lots of highway mileage. If one does a lot of braking then regen braking may be useful. I wonder what would be the case without subsidies?
[...]
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1) I don't know how could anyone claim sacrifices in performance in hybrids. The hybridization adds massive torque and instant response with obvious performance benefits that easily compensate for the added weight. Naturally if you compare a 1.5L non-VTEC civic hybrid with a 1.8L VTEC one it may seem you are making compromises in performance, but that has nothing to do with the hybrid part, its all about the gas one. Compare a CR-Z with a 1.5L Fit and tell me where is the compromise. And if you find the chasis is too different to get a clear idea just come by Japan and drive side by side a Fit RS against its hybrid counterpart.
Much confusion in the hybrid market. Maybe that reflects the infancy of the market and the industry. Maybe it reflects lack of clarity in perceived benefits.
I recall admiring Honda for the first Civic hybrid. Rather than join the Prius fashion market Honda seemed to want to demonstrate that hybrids were normal and real and ready for everyday use. Honda seemed to be aiming at promoting hybrids as real and normal/ready. That was admirable yet it failed because the value-for-money customers shunned hybrids and the fashion conscious saw only one solution to show-off their hybrid: a Prius.
Then Honda did another admirable act: the first Honda Accord hybrid. It seemed to be showcasing the performance benefits. Yet flopped. Possibly the American market had already been conditioned to thinking of hybrids as gas-saving.
Or maybe I'm wrong.
I accept your point that adding instant torque equates to more responsiveness. Yet hybrids with non-hybrids in the same model line-up seem to underperform their non-hybrid sister. Why? Because battery weight, smaller gas engine.
If there was a Civic hybrid with the same engine as the non-hybrid then we'd see a market response to your claim. Yet then the cost differential would be even greater.
2) Don't know who gave you the "battery reliability unknown" bit, but I believe that after 15 years in the market place and millions of units sold around the world the battery reliability is pretty much well established. Just in case, not meaning there are no troubles, there are and always will be like with any other complex part of any car. Statistically some will always turn bad.
Radio interview of a GE exec promoting battery recharging stations said the same. Yet his interview was so biased. Nonetheless his comment on battery reliability resonated. So I accept your point.
3) my quote was focused in Japan, and certainly here nobody pushes hybrids as money making machines. They are marketed as what they are, the most efficient cars you can buy on each segment.
From what I've read, Japan is a fashion/image conscious market. In Australia hybrid marketing is not clear. People's perception seems to be on saving gas. Certainly that's the case in USA with many Prius buyers seemingly making a statement. Confirmed by motoring journalists. So I guess it varies.
4) the brake regeneration is a myth automakers help building to intuitively explain hybrids to people. In real life most of the battery is charged during steady state operation, or off-throttle decelerations (not involving actual braking).For once, the actual braking capacity of regenerative brakes remain rather limited un most hybrids in the market. The key concept behind charging isn't so much braking but reducing friction loses (to nearly zero in EV mode). If you drive mainly in flat and steady conditions hybrids make zero sense. Maybe the fact that there are virtually no flat roads in Japan is also related to the development of the technology. On Japanese open roads hybrids get a pretty much noticeable advantages over gasoline cars. Here is a relatively well documented example of the matter.
Horses for courses.
So maybe that explains why USA and Australia lag in demand for hybrids. They certainly are not taking off downunder. Honda's marketing for hybrids though is limp.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1079181
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MalcolmR
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iceman6 wrote:
A very strange thread, I must say. In my opinion, MalcolmR likes to ask 1000-word rhetorical questions. But whatever. Here is my answer.
First of all, there is very little point in discussing the cost/benefit of hybrid technology when used in luxury cars like Lexus and BMW. Who gives a sh*t? Lexus/BMW owners certainly don't.
Second, the Prius is one of the most remarkable cars ever invented. Affordable, 40+ mpg, over a million sold, an unsubsidized smack in the face to every car company that thought that future CAFE guidelines were un-achievable.
Third, in spite of everything we've done to reduce carbon emissions, the Arctic Ocean will be ice-free during the summer in less than 20 years. Hybrid technology doesn't just save fuel, it reduces carbon emissions, which will help us slow the rate of increase of global warming.
Fourth, the problem with hybrid technology is the batteries. They're too heavy, and don't hold enough energy. Li-ion batteries are a step forward, but still not good enough. This is a technology problem, and it will be solved, but not in this generation of cars.
And last, the Prius still drives like a Toyota. Give me Prius technology with Honda handling, and I might buy one. Or I might buy a VW GTD.
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iceman6.
By 1,000 word rhetorical questions are you referring to Are hybrids worth it?
Your ignorance on polar ice-caps is enormous. It's being posted here:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=889605&page_number=15&
Reducing carbon dioxide production for the sake of reducing CO2 production is absurd. It's based on a con. The second-biggest con in human history.
Try here:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=832780
and
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=889605
I'll not post more on this politicised topic in this thread.
Malcolm
:)
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MalcolmR
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Jeff wrote:
iceman6 wrote:
A very strange thread, I must say. In my opinion, MalcolmR likes to ask 1000-word rhetorical questions. But whatever. Here is my answer.
First of all, there is very little point in discussing the cost/benefit of hybrid technology when used in luxury cars like Lexus and BMW. Who gives a sh*t? Lexus/BMW owners certainly don't.
Second, the Prius is one of the most remarkable cars ever invented. Affordable, 40+ mpg, over a million sold, an unsubsidized smack in the face to every car company that thought that future CAFE guidelines were un-achievable.
Third, in spite of everything we've done to reduce carbon emissions, the Arctic Ocean will be ice-free during the summer in less than 20 years. Hybrid technology doesn't just save fuel, it reduces carbon emissions, which will help us slow the rate of increase of global warming.
Fourth, the problem with hybrid technology is the batteries. They're too heavy, and don't hold enough energy. Li-ion batteries are a step forward, but still not good enough. This is a technology problem, and it will be solved, but not in this generation of cars.
And last, the Prius still drives like a Toyota. Give me Prius technology with Honda handling, and I might buy one. Or I might buy a VW GTD.
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the new 2014 Accord PHEV may fit the bill for you then. It's the best hybrid I've ever driven - and it drives more like a Honda than a Toyota (though maybe less like a Honda than I would like :(. It's the first Hybrid I would consider owning, as-is. There are some hybrids (like the CR-z) that have led me to think "yeah, I could maybe consider one of these, but only IF..." - and those are HUGE IFs and so far, even the aftermarket answers like superchargers and turbo chargers haven't been enough to change my mind)
Also, I feel compelled to add that the Prius and HSD-equipped hybrids in general are amongst the worst cars (hybrid or otherwise) I've ever had the displeasure of driving.
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Enjoyed the clarity and directness of your opinions Jeff and those of 6SPDTL.
Interesting comment on Accord PHEV.
It'll be interesting to see market reaction.
Malcolm
:)
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