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TOV Forums > IMA/Hybrids > > Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews

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TSX69
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Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 10:29
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First Drive: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Mule
The mysteries that remain
It’s clear that Honda is hoping the more sophisticated powertrain will be a feather in its cap and a step toward reclaiming its reputation as a technology leader. For that to happen, though, buyers will have to respond to this hybrid more strongly than they have to any of Honda’s previous gas/electric cars. While the plug-in hybrid features some genuine innovations, its chance of success depends just as much on unknowns like styling, pricing, and fuel economy.
2003_UB313
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 12:11
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"[...] Honda built its brand on the fundamentals of its most accessible and popular vehicles. Americans admired the simplest solutions to the most complex problems; they respected diligent engineering that set a standard of continuous improvement; and they believed in the company that was consistently one step ahead of the competition. [...]

Honda’s plug-in hybrid powertrain is far more sophisticated than the simple Integrated Motor Assist system found in Honda’s existing hybrids. [...] No matter whether the Honda plug-in is relying on energy from its 6-kWh lithium-ion battery or its fuel tank, the wheels are primarily powered by a 161-hp electric motor. A second electric motor functions as a generator to convert power from a 2.0-liter four-cylinder into electricity for range far beyond the battery’s 10 to 15 miles. If the driver calls for quick acceleration or exceeds 62 mph, the gas engine will also kick on before the battery’s charge is exhausted. Recharging takes about one and a half hours with a 240-volt connection.

The Honda’s unusual trick (all good hybrids have at least one) is that the gas engine can be mated to the front wheels through a fixed gear ratio. While single-speed transmissions are common in electric vehicles, gas engines require multi-speed gearboxes to match the narrow rpm band where the engine is most efficient with the wide range of road speeds. Both the Prius and the Volt use continuously variable transmissions to blend electric and gas power on its way to the wheels. Honda’s single gear ratio has been optimized for low-load highway cruising, such that the gas engine never engages the wheels below 40 mph. An electronically controlled clutch engages the engine when the computer decides to send power directly from the gas engine to the wheels. [...]

Honda has committed to production for 2012, but it hasn’t let on if the powertrain will appear in the next Accord or an exclusive hybrid model. [...] "
Nick GravesX
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 13:39
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It's very interesting, but quite different from the HSD system used by Toyota/GM.

I understand the HSD 'locks up' at cruising speeds too.

Possibly by directly-coupling the engine and boosting torque when necessary via the e-motor, Honda is aiming to produce a more 'driven' experience, to avoid the CVT-feeling.
JeffX
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 14:44
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Nick Graves wrote:
It's very interesting, but quite different from the HSD system used by Toyota/GM.

I understand the HSD 'locks up' at cruising speeds too.

Possibly by directly-coupling the engine and boosting torque when necessary via the e-motor, Honda is aiming to produce a more 'driven' experience, to avoid the CVT-feeling.



I'm still working on my 'blurbs' from last week (got home LATE friday night, then had a full family-packed weekend so no time to work), but there is basically NO cvt-feeling in the PHEV. There's no gearbox, just a clutch that connects/disconnects the petrol engine from the axle. We drove at low speeds (the "limit" was 30kph on the local roads we sampled, but most everybody sampled a little beyond that speed) - in this environment the PHEV felt great - much, much better than any HSD Toyota hybrid I've ever driven. Honda's system offers very good refinement, smoothness, and strong torque. The question that remains is how will it feel on "real" roads in the USA. On the roads around Twin Ring Motegi, I barely even got the gas engine to fire up - under very hard acceleration you could kick it over but due to the extremely low speed limit on the roads we tested, it was a very brief event, so I have no clue how smooth the transition from EV to petrol propulsion will be, nor how refined it would be at freeway cruising speeds, nor how it will perform at highway overtaking... Lots of questions there.
DCR
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 15:55
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It sounds like they are finally going the right way with this shit. I can't wait to see something in production.
MalcolmR
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 16:11
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.
Cost?

That will determine whether it is worth the added resources used in manufacturing. And the added complexity.

Honda is about efficiency. Will this hybrid do the trick?

I doubt it. Seems fundamentally expensive.

I am not an automotive engineer though. Any comments from people knowledgeable on drive trains?

Malcolm

:)
JeffX
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 17:37
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MalcolmR wrote:
.
Cost?

That will determine whether it is worth the added resources used in manufacturing. And the added complexity.

Honda is about efficiency. Will this hybrid do the trick?

I doubt it. Seems fundamentally expensive.

I am not an automotive engineer though. Any comments from people knowledgeable on drive trains?

Malcolm

:)



well it has one more motor than the IMA system, and both motors are much larger than anything they've hung on the crankshaft of an IMA lump, but this system has no transmission so there's some cost (offset) savings there. The battery pack is considerably larger (and surely costlier) than any preceding IMA battery pack, but again, some of that is offset by lower battery costs now vs 5 years ago (or so I've heard, at least)
danielgr
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-05-2011 18:30
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MalcolmR wrote:
.
Cost?

That will determine whether it is worth the added resources used in manufacturing. And the added complexity.

Honda is about efficiency. Will this hybrid do the trick?

I doubt it. Seems fundamentally expensive.

I am not an automotive engineer though. Any comments from people knowledgeable on drive trains?

Malcolm

:)


PIHEV are the "new hybrids", there will be no way to justify getting one not even remotely on economic grounds, and will massively rely on government subsidies. I am personally not surprised by that, it's the natural cycle of nearly any new tech in the industry.

In JP the Plug-in version of the Prius is already available for ordering, and it costs 1 million yen more (~10k USD in standard-of-life comparisons 100JPY ~ 1USD), but that is of course before subsidies (which cut that difference to about half). I don't think many would pay that much (10K) to be able to plug their Prius (once run out of battery both cars look identical on paper), but riding on the subsidies Toyota expects to sell some 50 to 60k cars a yar globally (most over here).

Yet as I said, that's how it goes... both Honda and Toyota are now selling hybrids at several 100k/y with no subsidies, and they would have never got there without the initial subsidies needed to mature the tech. The hybrid one was a success, will the Plug-in one be? Personally I think it has more potential than BEVs...
Brutus
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-28-2012 11:58
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Hey,
So I did a little digging since had a buddy asking me about plug in Hybrids. Here are a few things:

1. Discovered that this Accord will meet the 3750 federal tax credit, cool.
2. Reading in between the lines: "The 2014 Accord Plug-in Hybrid will be available in one highly equipped trim level with all the conveniences of the Accord Touring Sedan model."
Prius Hybrid plug-in 32000 msrp. This means I expect the pricing to be above the Touring which is 33430 which has more features then Prius, so we could say about 35,430 if they want to be competitive against the established player.

3. Styling will be completely subjective especially when you start comparing colors with the different front end, the Black one does not jump out at you, the tan one does. Add a license plate also adds a different dimension.

4. The media push seems to be this plug-in but what about the non-plug-in, I can't find any info and would love to hear more. Are we talking the exact same as plug-in features wise minus no plug in?

Just some thoughts, if they price this aggressively with the performance of a Hybrid, I do not see why it will not become a major player in the Hybrid market. Do a non plug-in offering lx/ex variants and you really open things up. Imagine if you will an LX priced with Hybrid option for about 25 grand serving up better mileage then the Camry Hybrid LE and less money.

B.

Brutus
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Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-04-2012 08:48
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thought I would add this over here, since this is the plug-in area, great review, makes me really wonder if hoping for a TSX cloned TLX will in fact not be my car but something like this:
TSX69 wrote:
AutoBlog: PlugIn
The average driver won't care much about this level of detail, of course, and the Accord is an average driver's car. The plug-in hybrid version is predictably the heaviest of all Accords, but it still performs admirably in city and highway driving. Journeying for a few hours through the hills outside of Santa Barbara, the PHEV had enough pep to entertain us powering out of the curves, even as we kept a curious eye on the battery SOC, just because that's what interests us. The electric motor provides reliable punch, especially in passing situations, and the electronic power steering feels slightly disconnected, but buyers won't mind much since it helps with fuel economy. It's the little things like this that will push the Accord PHEV to an expected 100 MPGe or more. We'll probably find out the exact number at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November. All we can go on right now are the provisional MPGe charts that Honda showed, which have the Accord beating the Chevrolet Volt and the Toyota Prius Plug-in in the MPGe category while the gas-only MPG was shown to be somewhere between the Volt (at 37 combined) and the Plug-in Prius (at 50).



Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 13:04
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Some Video, I think by simply adding a license plate it normalize the front. I think looks very nice, can't wait until I can drive one of these and get an idea on pricing (scary or reasonable).


RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: Honda Plug-In Hybrid Reviews    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2012 15:08
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Brutus wrote:
Some Video, I think by simply adding a license plate it normalize the front. I think looks very nice, can't wait until I can drive one of these and get an idea on pricing (scary or reasonable).





I absolutely love the design of the Hybrid. It takes the Touring to the next level IMO. I'm seriously considering it to replace the TSX in a year or so. I'll take it in White too. Just hope the price is right.
 
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