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330R
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BachelorFrog wrote:
I hope they keep the price below $26K for any FWD Type R for US markets.
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Total production of the DC2 Integra Type-R was over 20,000 units. That kind of production volume on a new CTR should make a price tag of around $26,000-$30,000 more likely than if a tuner house like M-Tec engineered and crafted 300-500 units.
To go back to the Nurburgring times again for a moment, there are two Renault Meganes (8:07.97, 8:16.90) for the quickest two FWD cars. The third quickest car was the Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo, at 8:22.85. That Chevy listed for $23,000. The Cobalt was a bit garbage, I know. The Megane RS Trophy is 35,500 Euros, but they're making only 30?
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330R
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RolledaNsx wrote:
In 2007 the Mugen Civic RR sold for $38,750 USD.
Now if they built the Civic Type R in America they could probably sell it in the $40,000 + range but it's going to be built in England and it cost more to build there.
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Lots of thoughts, some incomplete, but:
- 2015 or 2016 is a good ways away
- what cars will be available then, what power, how $$
- STIs and Evo Xs list for around $40k today, so..
- it's possible a certain amount of people would buy a $40k CTR that performed as well as an STI or Evo, or ran an 8 minute 'Ring time, but if people criticize FWD now, imagine with that price tag
- I firmly believe Honda has to fill a huge vacancy for a solid performing car in the $26,000-$30,000 range
- and that needs to happen yesterday
and honestly, a strong feeling that
-Honda is F**ked
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RolledaNsx
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Don't forget the 2nd generation CR-Z due in 2015 and the 10th generation Civic Si to fill that gap.
We look at them now and throw up but AHM won't make that mistake again(or Tokyo's mistake again)!
And a 1300-1500 cc Beat or how about a Beat Type R?
Japan will get the 660cc and 660cc turbo and the rest of the
World might get the ED Dohc L series in a car 500lbs lighter
than a CR-Z!
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330R
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I can't fathom a 2nd gen CR-Z right now... at least not one that would satisfy me. If one that might satisfy me costs $50k (LOL!)...
But I can think of ways the 10gen Civic Si could work to fill that gap. AHM has some making up to do, to make a further 2-3 year wait worth it and for putting that Accord engine in the 9th. I guess we'll see in 3 months or so if they made up for the nasty interior and dumbed down steering, suspension, shifter and clutch.
Beat Type-R? Sounds fun, but is it going to be kei car sized?
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WongKN
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RolledaNsx wrote:
I know english is my fourth language.
You guys need to understand that Honda inner circle run the company like they know better than the customer want we need. They run it by elitism!!!!!!
I almost drop dead when Tokyo gave up so much power to America this year!
You need to understand.... they look down at you if your not Japanese.... even me because im only 25 % Japanese.
Don't take it too wrong.... just more like how adults look at children.They see us as children that need to be told what to buy.
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Oh yeah, tell it to me.
Q&A session with the Tochigi engineers at the previous 8G Civic launch here in Malaysia.
me "Honda enthusiasts would like a Civic Type-R".
them "No, for you we decided the 155ps Civic 2.0 5AT is the car you should buy".
me (in my mind) "stupid idiots".
But I pulled a fast one on them. I talked to their CEO. LOL !!
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danielgr
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330R wrote:
And
danielgr wrote:
Whatever comes, you should not however expect it sooner than what he said (after the CTR).
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Honda better have something else coming well before then. I mean, soon. That's just abysmal. Pathetic. Negligent. Godawful. Terrible. If they can't address their enthusiast base before 2015-2016 or after, people are going to leave the brand and not return. As well they should.
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Obviously Honda is going to bring much more stuff before 2015 (to begin with they've said the whole Acura line-up will be refreshed). My sentence was referring extrictely to what Honda would hope performance enthusiasts would call a "sports car".
- Would that be a hybrid like the NSX, a turbo, whatever, that I don't know.
- Would that be a dedicated model or some hot-version of a coupe or something, I don't know.
Basically, I don't know anything else but what I wrote. As usual, and despite Wong putting me together with other names, I am no insider, have never had any information to disclose nor any insight on anything Honda does. I am just an observer, though I believe a careful one.
So here it is simply said: based on past Ito track-record and experience with Japanese people ways in general, what I read is "Honda will bring some kind of sports car for the US performance enthusiast, but it won't come before the Euro CTR".
Last edited by danielgr on 09-25-2012 04:57
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superchg2
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330R wrote:
- I firmly believe Honda has to fill a huge vacancy for a solid performing car in the $26,000-$30,000 range
- and that needs to happen yesterday
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Considering the potential sales of the new Accord to a very large audience, and which also happens to be in the price range you mentioned, I think an Accord Sport / Civic Si is probably as close to an enthusiast car as you are likely to see from Honda any time soon.
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danielgr
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RolledaNsx wrote:
I know english is my fourth language.
You guys need to understand that Honda inner circle run the company like they know better than the customer want we need. They run it by elitism!!!!!!
I almost drop dead when Tokyo gave up so much power to America this year!
You need to understand.... they look down at you if your not Japanese.... even me because im only 25 % Japanese.
Don't take it too wrong.... just more like how adults look at children.They see us as children that need to be told what to buy. |
Again, that is just my experience, do not intend to make a general rule out of it.
PS: Actually, that was half-truth, I could sure feel some people's condescending look whenever I blatantly break common societal rules, such as crossing a crowded street while the traffic-light is red and everyone else is politely waiting for it to go green. I guess though you were not talking about such situations, hence my answer above.
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nash24
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Japan will get the Fit/Jazz first (Fall 2013) then North America in Spring/Summer 2014 and the rest of the world 2015/2016.
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This is not correct!
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Nick GravesX
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330R wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
In 2007 the Mugen Civic RR sold for $38,750 USD.
Now if they built the Civic Type R in America they could probably sell it in the $40,000 + range but it's going to be built in England and it cost more to build there.
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Lots of thoughts, some incomplete, but:
- 2015 or 2016 is a good ways away
- what cars will be available then, what power, how $$
- STIs and Evo Xs list for around $40k today, so..
- it's possible a certain amount of people would buy a $40k CTR that performed as well as an STI or Evo, or ran an 8 minute 'Ring time, but if people criticize FWD now, imagine with that price tag
- I firmly believe Honda has to fill a huge vacancy for a solid performing car in the $26,000-$30,000 range
- and that needs to happen yesterday
and honestly, a strong feeling that
-Honda is F**ked
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Steady, the Generalissimo won't tolerate negative thoughts on his threads! Go post elsewhere...
Seriously, though,
Honda has the Civic Si coupe in the US, which could be made more attractive, or an -R model if needed. They'd only need to crate the engines to the US, for local assembly. Providingthere's a business case...
The Civic Type-R for EU is such a no-brainer to support the EU image. Such a no-brainer, there's a three-year hiatus.
The idea of a 1,600cc Beat troubles me slightly; it may be perceived as too small to have a big market (though that might be the idea; sell fewer, lose less money) and the L is too long-stroke to be a very sporty engine. We shall see how it turns out.
A second-gen CR-Z will have the image problems of the first to overcome. Even if it has windows and an entertaining engine. It could sit in that FR-S niche, but I cannot see it being as good, I agree.
Do remember, there are stories abound that the Evo & STi may become emasculated as a result of Al Gore's 'get rich quick' carbon scam. It's not just Honda that will be more boring in the future. I suppose an emasculated Evo/M-car is better than none at all...
I have a sense that by 2015, the Beat may be as close as we get to a modern Elise...depending on what happens at Lotus.
Guess the proof of the pudding will be the NSX, then. See you in 2015.
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danielgr
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Nick Graves wrote:
Steady, the Generalissimo won't tolerate negative thoughts on his threads! Go post elsewhere...
[...] |
For the record, I'll never say anything against people discussing stuff on topic, be it positive or negative. What pisses me off is some repetitive whining polluting completely unrelated discussions.
As far as I'm concerned, if there is a place to discuss what kind of "sportscar" could or should Honda bring that is this thread.
Just read the topic.
PS: Would obviously guess yours was friendly sarcasm; just don't feel like playing the game right now.
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DCR
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danielgr wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Steady, the Generalissimo won't tolerate negative thoughts on his threads! Go post elsewhere...
[...] |
For the record, I'll never say anything against people discussing stuff on topic, be it positive or negative. What pisses me off is some repetitive whining polluting completely unrelated discussions.
As far as I'm concerned, if there is a place to discuss what kind of "sportscar" could or should Honda bring that is this thread.
Just read the topic.
PS: Would obviously guess yours was friendly sarcasm; just don't feel like playing the game right now.
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The conversation looks pretty on-topic to me.
You just don't like it.
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S600=Dream
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Real helpful, DCR.
Real helpful.
Anywho, I'll be curious to see what's between the lines. Like I said before, this reads to me like a "mea culpa" type thing for the company with big sweeping ideas and company policy type stuff.
That the speech left out enthusiast cars specifically is admittedly annoying, but I don't think it was intentional, and I think it's only a matter of time before the media and the folks buying Hondas make Honda realize that they need to get with it.
Seriously, it's not like Ito said "no, we aren't making any enthusiast cars and you can all just fuck off".
For example, do we know what's going to happen to the Civic Si when they do the big magical mixup coming up for the MMC Civic?
Nope.
What about the MMC for the ILX? Have they said anything about a possible Type S? Do we know anything about anything in that regard?
Nope.
What about the new TL? It could be the most kick ass sports sedan ever made by Honda...it could knock the market on it's ass...but do we know a stinking thing about it yet? Do we even know about something with a new TSX???
Nope.
How about the forthcoming RLX? We only know a few specs here and there and it's got a bunch of crazy new tech that nobody has even attempted to try yet. Maybe it's magnificent.
Next gen Fit...possibly an Si variant? Hell, maybe a three door? Shit, they could be making a version with a quad turbo, 300 horsepower i4 and SH-AWD that will run down a Shitsubishi Evo and cost 20 grand. Maybe it runs on the hover technology used in Back To the Future Part 2! Why not??!
But what do we *actually* know?
Zilch. We know *nothing*.
(yes I realize that's crazy talk, but hey, you get my point)
I said it earlier, and I'm saying it again--Honda got it's ass whooped by the media, mother nature, the market, and just about everyone else, and is holding it's cards close the the heart and developing behind locked and sealed iron doors.
It's impossible to say what in the hell is going to happen next with the company, and nobody should read too hard into this speech because they ain't sayin' SHIT!
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DCR
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S600=Dream wrote:
Real helpful, DCR.
Real helpful.
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Do you think you are some insightful contributor here? I will help you. Learn to write in a more concise manner, and your posts would take far less time to read.
You circle the point many times, but there isn't anything "between the lines." If there was something to say, it would be said. When a company says nothing, it has nothing to say.
Your wishful thinking about some grand plan is cute though. Some of us have much more experience with the new "Honda way" of talk first, and act later if you feel like it.
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notyper
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danielgr wrote:
For the record, I'll never say anything against people discussing stuff on topic, be it positive or negative. What pisses me off is some repetitive whining polluting completely unrelated discussions.
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Aww, sweetie, what you call repetitive whining and pollution, some might call forceful demands that Honda satisfy their long-time enthusiasts customers. People so enamored of Honda that even after buying other marques they still pine for some classic Honda goodness.
It's ok if you don't understand. Just think, people asking a company to provide a product they want to buy!? The gall. Sometimes I feel like a Camaro fan during the lost decade....
SC
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sugaki
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danielgr wrote:
He then said something like:
- Priority right now is steering the company through the crisis.
- Short-term focus will be on expanding use of IMA and developing new hybrid system for larger vehicles.
- MidTerm gasoline drivetrains tech remains king, and we will improve not only engines but also transmissions, aero, weight, etc. (holistic approach).
- Once we get these elements ongoing and we have cash I will for sure like to bring something like the NSX back.
(snip)
Summing up, you may love or hate Ito's team direction for Honda, but so far Honda is doing an impressive job in fulfilling every word that comes out of his mouth. |
I don't think so. Coming out of the crisis we see they didn't lose money, yes, but they've also lost marketshare relative to others in a lot of segments.
As for engines, they've been sitting on their butts for a long time. I mean the K24 is being used in everything, and we're only just seeing Earth Dreams getting implemented, so the jury's still out on that. IMA has thoroughly been established as underwhelming tech, even in regions where hybrids are popular. Toyota enjoys high Aqua sales while the Insight has stagnated. CRZ globally is a dud.
The ILX launched and is on track for being (surprise!) below expectations. Civic got embarrassed by Consumer Reports and needs rebates/incentives to get pushed along. An MMC so quickly after its release is a strong indication of its lackluster performance.
Aside from the NSX, there's really nothing compelling in its upcoming lineup. I don't say that as some rabid enthusiast. For example I agree there's no market for the CTR--not with what we've got.
Honda tries filling niches where none exist (ZDX, Crosstour, ILX) while leaving giant gaping holes where they do. With Ito at helm it's a clueless company.
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