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P54
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While ever more stringent emission standards increase the use of precious metals Honda develops new catalyst that use less of the metals. 2013 Accord first to use it.
Honda Develops New Catalyst to Significantly Reduce Use of Precious Metals
- 50% Reduction in Use of Rhodium -
http://world.honda.com/news/2012/4120906New-Catalyst/index.html
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superchg2
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There are probably thousands of little improvements in the new Accord, yet many have been crying about the missing front wishbones.
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Dren
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The aluminum (aluminium for those over the water) to steel welding is pretty cool as well.
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shingles
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Don't forget the complaining about cup holders, cup holder springs, color combination, not enough peak hp... and more! ;-)
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sadlerau
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The deletion of double wishbone is a philosophical bone of contention. It doesn't matter to the great "unwashed", but it DOES matter to those who know and understand. It was one of the keystones that made the Accord an Accord. It continues the dumbing down of engineering based company - into a marketing company. Problem is, Honda has never been good at marketing.........................
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shingles
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ignoring the fact that this post is about an engineering achievement...
Honestly, I think there's a lot of bench racing going on with DWB. Yeah I know I know, it IS better, but, really the family sedan that is the Accord... most people do NOT push the accord THAT much. Yeah, the ride might suffer... but can we at least wait till we get the driving impressions before we say that Honda sucks?
I do agree, Honda Marketing is terrible...
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P54
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shingles wrote:
ignoring the fact that this post is about an engineering achievement...
Honestly, I think there's a lot of bench racing going on with DWB. Yeah I know I know, it IS better, but, really the family sedan that is the Accord... most people do NOT push the accord THAT much. Yeah, the ride might suffer... but can we at least wait till we get the driving impressions before we say that Honda sucks?
I do agree, Honda Marketing is terrible...
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Just trying to help them! :-)
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owequitit
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sadlerau wrote:
The deletion of double wishbone is a philosophical bone of contention. It doesn't matter to the great "unwashed", but it DOES matter to those who know and understand. It was one of the keystones that made the Accord an Accord. It continues the dumbing down of engineering based company - into a marketing company. Problem is, Honda has never been good at marketing.........................
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See, this is where I disagree, and it is from actual experience with the "unwashed" and not from some internet tough guy stance like P54 has. Unfortunately, he assumes that because he is one of the great unwashed, then everyone else must be too.
This is also a total crock of shit as far as excuses go. Just because someone can't elaborate on WHY a system feels better, doesn't mean that they can't tell it feels better. A couple of examples:
1) High end audio systems. Most outside of the audiophile group don't know WHY a system sounds better, but you better believe if you put an "unwashed" person in front of a mediocre stereo, and a top end system, they WILL be able to tell the difference. Won't have a clue as to WHY, but they will know.
2) Give someone a Kitchenaid utensil versus a less well engineered one, and they are going to know it FEELS better. May not know why, but they will know.
3) My dad is unwashed. He knows the difference when he drives it. Can't tell me WHY it feels different, only that it does.
This "people won't be able to tell" bullshit is just that. Bullshit.
"It might ride harder, but people won't know."
"It might not be as adaptable to rough pavement, undulating pavement, broken pavement, uneven pavement, and may not be as secure and predictable in corners, but people won't know."
The only way this premise works is if the "unwashed" are assumed to be completely stupid, which is exactly what he does. The REALITY is that many millions of people have bought the Accord over cars like the Camry precisely because of its handling qualities, a large part of which were imparted by the wishbone suspension. To sit there and say that people can't explain why DWB provide that handling means that it doesn't matter is a logical and intellectual fallacy. Simple as that.
As for the catalysts, that is great that Honda found a way to reduce precious metal content by 20%. But frankly, I am more likely to care about the way a car drives (it is actually tangible to the buyer), and the 37% cost reduction on 3 catalysts in the case of the V6, and 2 catalysts in the case of the 4 banger should have been able to provide some engineering resources to keep the good suspension. Especially since they aren't cheap (wholesale cost is around $600 each).
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Dren
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Wait and drive the freaking car first. It may just surprise you.
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superchg2
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Dren wrote:
Wait and drive the freaking car first. It may just surprise you.
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Early reports suggest just that!
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sugaki
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Honda screwed a lot of things up, but honestly Mac struts up front isn't a big deal to me.
Drive a Porsche and the suspension just feels so darn right even with Macphersons up front. Especially a Cayman/Cayman R. And nobody would think the Accord suspension feels better than a Porsche because it's DWB.
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owequitit
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sugaki wrote:
Honda screwed a lot of things up, but honestly Mac struts up front isn't a big deal to me.
Drive a Porsche and the suspension just feels so darn right even with Macphersons up front. Especially a Cayman/Cayman R. And nobody would think the Accord suspension feels better than a Porsche because it's DWB.
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Does a Porsche carry 2000-2200lb on the relatively high profile, narrow width front tires?
Does the Honda use a bushing setup that is completely done by 50K?
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
Didn't think so. Those are not subtle trivialities and they apply to the Honda, and not the Porsche. Like Jeff has said:
1) The BMW/Porsche uses struts so it is OK excuse is bunk (most BMW's are actually switching to DWB suspensions).
and
2) The struts are NOT as good in some measurable ways to the old setup. Just a fact of life with the McStruts which have packaging and manufacturing cost efficiencies at the expense of adaptability to varied road conditions and cornering demands.
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1091655&news_item_id=1091517
Refer to his comments in this thread.
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DrWhiner
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Does Merc use DW in its new A-class?
Does BMW use DW in its Mini?
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DrWhiner
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owequitit wrote:
As for the catalysts, that is great that Honda found a way to reduce precious metal content by 20%. But frankly, I am more likely to care about the way a car drives (it is actually tangible to the buyer), and the 37% cost reduction on 3 catalysts in the case of the V6, and 2 catalysts in the case of the 4 banger should have been able to provide some engineering resources to keep the good suspension. Especially since they aren't cheap (wholesale cost is around $600 each).
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You know how much has the price of Pa risen in the last decade?
The current prices of both are about 250% of what they sold for 10 years ago.
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nash24
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owequitit wrote:
sugaki wrote:
Honda screwed a lot of things up, but honestly Mac struts up front isn't a big deal to me.
Drive a Porsche and the suspension just feels so darn right even with Macphersons up front. Especially a Cayman/Cayman R. And nobody would think the Accord suspension feels better than a Porsche because it's DWB.
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Does a Porsche carry 2000-2200lb on the relatively high profile, narrow width front tires? No but a porsche 911 puts its weight over the rear axle and still has struts upfront, and how many honda drivers are going to push an accord like a porsche
Does the Honda use a bushing setup that is completely done by 50K? Do u work for Honda and know they will be done by 50K with all the testing you have done
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
This a myth say the car has 60/40 weight distribution front to rear when you have 5 passengers it evens it out and if you have stuff in the boot it will go even more the other way, will you get that in a porsche? we are talking about a family sedan that wont get pushed like a porsche and we arent comparing the net NSX to the porsche here, compare apples with apples
Didn't think so. Those are not subtle trivialities and they apply to the Honda, and not the Porsche. Like Jeff has said:
1) The BMW/Porsche uses struts so it is OK excuse is bunk (most BMW's are actually switching to DWB suspensions).
and
2) The struts are NOT as good in some measurable ways to the old setup. Just a fact of life with the McStruts which have packaging and manufacturing cost efficiencies at the expense of adaptability to varied road conditions and cornering demands.
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1091655&news_item_id=1091517
Refer to his comments in this thread.
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once again everyone on here loves the 8th gen civic Si and what suspension is that using?
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Nick GravesX
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DrWhiner wrote:
Does Merc use DW in its new A-class?
Does BMW use DW in its Mini?
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Small, light, cheap cars (overpriced on final sale).
Not a ruddy greAT Accord!
Maybe there'll be a VW Pissat/Audi A4 style McP/DW split in order to differentiate the Accord better from the Acura TLSX. But I very much doubt it, somehow.
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P54
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nash24 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
sugaki wrote:
Honda screwed a lot of things up, but honestly Mac struts up front isn't a big deal to me.
Drive a Porsche and the suspension just feels so darn right even with Macphersons up front. Especially a Cayman/Cayman R. And nobody would think the Accord suspension feels better than a Porsche because it's DWB.
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Does a Porsche carry 2000-2200lb on the relatively high profile, narrow width front tires? No but a porsche 911 puts its weight over the rear axle and still has struts upfront, and how many honda drivers are going to push an accord like a porsche
Does the Honda use a bushing setup that is completely done by 50K? Do u work for Honda and know they will be done by 50K with all the testing you have done
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
This a myth say the car has 60/40 weight distribution front to rear when you have 5 passengers it evens it out and if you have stuff in the boot it will go even more the other way, will you get that in a porsche? we are talking about a family sedan that wont get pushed like a porsche and we arent comparing the net NSX to the porsche here, compare apples with apples
Didn't think so. Those are not subtle trivialities and they apply to the Honda, and not the Porsche. Like Jeff has said:
1) The BMW/Porsche uses struts so it is OK excuse is bunk (most BMW's are actually switching to DWB suspensions).
and
2) The struts are NOT as good in some measurable ways to the old setup. Just a fact of life with the McStruts which have packaging and manufacturing cost efficiencies at the expense of adaptability to varied road conditions and cornering demands.
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1091655&news_item_id=1091517
Refer to his comments in this thread.
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once again everyone on here loves the 8th gen civic Si and what suspension is that using?
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The VTEC surge excites enough so who cares for DWB. If the Accord had red-lined at 8000 rpm nobody would have noticed the lack of DWB. But the lack of low rpm torque would have been blasted..... Mommy, I want the red candy, not the yellow. Buuhhh, buuhhh. No, I don't want the yellow either I want the green with stripes on it. Buuuhhh, buuuhhh. Nooo! I don't want it, moommyy, I want all the colors in one candy. Buuuhhh, buuuhh.
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owequitit
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nash24 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
sugaki wrote:
Honda screwed a lot of things up, but honestly Mac struts up front isn't a big deal to me.
Drive a Porsche and the suspension just feels so darn right even with Macphersons up front. Especially a Cayman/Cayman R. And nobody would think the Accord suspension feels better than a Porsche because it's DWB.
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Does a Porsche carry 2000-2200lb on the relatively high profile, narrow width front tires? No but a porsche 911 puts its weight over the rear axle and still has struts upfront, and how many honda drivers are going to push an accord like a porsche
Does the Honda use a bushing setup that is completely done by 50K? Do u work for Honda and know they will be done by 50K with all the testing you have done
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
This a myth say the car has 60/40 weight distribution front to rear when you have 5 passengers it evens it out and if you have stuff in the boot it will go even more the other way, will you get that in a porsche? we are talking about a family sedan that wont get pushed like a porsche and we arent comparing the net NSX to the porsche here, compare apples with apples
Didn't think so. Those are not subtle trivialities and they apply to the Honda, and not the Porsche. Like Jeff has said:
1) The BMW/Porsche uses struts so it is OK excuse is bunk (most BMW's are actually switching to DWB suspensions).
and
2) The struts are NOT as good in some measurable ways to the old setup. Just a fact of life with the McStruts which have packaging and manufacturing cost efficiencies at the expense of adaptability to varied road conditions and cornering demands.
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1091655&news_item_id=1091517
Refer to his comments in this thread.
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once again everyone on here loves the 8th gen civic Si and what suspension is that using?
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What did you do Dr. Whiner, have to change names because I don't even bother reading your posts?
1) I do love the 8th gen Si. However, my biggest complaint about that car chassis wise, is that the front struts do NOT impart the same level of confidence as the DWB suspension used to. It does not ride as smoothly on rough pavement. It wanders more on rough sections of highway at high speed. It is more prone to bump steer, and it is more prone to tramlining, and it is more prone to mid-corner upsets. It is also not as likely to take a definite set on corner entry because rather than immediately adjust to the camber of the curve as a DWB suspension would, it has to rely on the tires to flex, deform and then take a set, essentially making them do the work that the suspension USED to. With DWB suspension you could tell immediately what the car was going to do as you entered the corner and it tended take an IMMEDIATE set and then stay there, even with high profile, narrow, relatively low-grip shitty tires. In fact, the Civic needs much larger, lower profile tires to even make that begin to happen, and it still can't quite pull off the same level of confidence when entering a high speed sweeper, on-ramp, off-ramp, or small radius turn on a REGULAR road.
In short, despite all of you and Dr. Winder's bitching to the contrary, it is a change that you can FEEL, and you don't have to be a race car driver or enthusiast to detect any of the things I just mentioned. That is another bullshit copout.
Having driven every generation of DWB equipped Civic in pretty much every configuration and trim level (including the rock tired eco models) and having driven every single trim level of strut equipped Civics, I can say without hesitation that the DWB suspensions were more enjoyable to drive. Period. I am not even talking about "boy racing." I am merely talking about driving on regular roads, at the speed of traffic, with passengers on board. It is only more prevalent the harder you drive the car.
That pretty much sucks the wind out of your sails and I am not even done yet...
2) The 8th gen Civic Si was saved by 4 things and 4 things only. The K20Z3 (which all the nimrods justify the destruction of to the end of the world), the 6MT (which was a vast step up from the previous 5 speed, and is the only tactile element that still remains), the LSD (which also still remains, but in a much less enthusiastic package), and a large move forward in mechanical grip due to the addition of 17" wheels and summer tires (which still didn't make the car as confident on turn in as the 6th gen Si). The 8th gen was not as high quality in the interior as the previous car, and if it hadn't been for those unquestionably good DYNAMIC additions, the Si would have died a generation ago. But, alas, Honda eventually did it anyway, because now we get no more grip, no more speed, and a much shittier interior versus even the reduced quality interior of the 8th gen, which leaves the 9th gen Si with these two redeeming virtues: First, it rides a little smoother by virtue of its longer suspension travel (doesn't handle any better, and the car feels more rolly-polly doing it), and it is marginally quieter than the 8th gen. Neither trait that most enthusiasts are necessarily looking for beyond a reasonable point. I frankly didn't even find the torque in normal driving to be all that spectacular, and with 3 people on board, it was a little bit faster, but not enough to where I would go bragging to the world about how torquey my car was...
Even with the extra torque the cheap dash, crappy armrest, chintzy door panels, and horrible seat fabric, wanted to make me RUN back to my 8th gen (exactly what I did, despite the dealer wanting to talk trade in numbers). Of course, then there were the vague clutch, the even more excessive rev-hang than the 8th gen had, and the less responsive throttle pedal which made the car less engaging to be in. The only positive tactile comments I could come up with were that the steering wheel's width and leather were nice, the round ball style shift knob felt superb, the shifter was slightly less notchy and smoother, and the top hinged gas pedal was less weird at first. Other than that, the 8th gen was a better car in pretty much every way that mattered to an enthusiast, but even it was still far from perfect, and DOES represent a step in the decline among Honda enthusiasts.
So now, if you want to actually attempt to contribute something interesting to the conversation, let's have at it. Otherwise, your completely bullshit assertions about whatever car you are mentioning with DWB suspensions, is bullshit, bogus, and irrelevant to what Honda did in the past, or should do in the future. If MB wants to make shitty cars I could frankly care less. It isn't an excuse for Honda to do it.
P.S. The change in cost of platinum is irrelevant to the discussion. These catalysts are 37% cheaper than the other one's by Honda's own claim. The cost of platinum in such an accounting is irrelevant.
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DCR
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P54 wrote:
The VTEC surge excites enough so who cares for DWB. If the Accord had red-lined at 8000 rpm nobody would have noticed the lack of DWB. But the lack of low rpm torque would have been blasted..... Mommy, I want the red candy, not the yellow. Buuhhh, buuhhh. No, I don't want the yellow either I want the green with stripes on it. Buuuhhh, buuuhhh. Nooo! I don't want it, moommyy, I want all the colors in one candy. Buuuhhh, buuuhh.
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We already know you don't have a clue...don't make it so easy.
If Honda was ever on top of the game, it was with the 8th Gen Si. You may have seen one online, or in a video game possibly, but really if you were to drive one (you'd have to actually drive faster than 35 though), you would appreciate what it does.
If, as a company, you want to play the game of "addition by subtraction", you've got to fool those who are paying attention, or at the very least, make the math come out close. The advantages the 8th Gen Si had over the change in suspension are well documented in Owe's post, and spot on.
Now, if the new Accord had class leading MPG and if they were able to magically make the DWB switch a better ride option, then it would be silent. They did weld the frame differently though, so if Honda gets any pressure in the media over these things, they can just pull out a few powerpoint slides on that world first achievement, and maybe push the brake pedal a few times to blind the media with the LED tails...and maybe no one will notice.
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sugaki
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owequitit wrote:
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
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Eh, you're forgetting the Porsche Panamera? Front engine and AWD means it's pushing a lot of weight and power up front. And it's an amazing driver's car.
The only downside to Macstruts on the 8thgen Si is that it doesn't gain camber under compression, like DWB would. But put about -1.5 up front and you don't see much camber wear outside. (the FG2/FA5 love front camber)
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JeffX
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sugaki wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
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Eh, you're forgetting the Porsche Panamera? Front engine and AWD means it's pushing a lot of weight and power up front. And it's an amazing driver's car.
The only downside to Macstruts on the 8thgen Si is that it doesn't gain camber under compression, like DWB would. But put about -1.5 up front and you don't see much camber wear outside. (the FG2/FA5 love front camber)
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There are certainly more downsides than just camber gain. It's true, for pure performance reasons on smooth surfaces, the Macpherson strut setup doesn't sacrifice much if anything compared to the DWBs, particularly when dialed in with some static negative camber. For the rest of the time, I will take DWB all day long.
Also, the AWD Panamera is nearly 50/50 weight biased and is permanently rear-biased with respect to torque delivery, plus it uses torque vectoring on the rear axle to facilitate turn-in. Completely different animal from a FWD sedan.
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owequitit
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sugaki wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Does the Porsche expect the front end to A) carry the majority of the car's mass, turn, AND put the power down?
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Eh, you're forgetting the Porsche Panamera? Front engine and AWD means it's pushing a lot of weight and power up front. And it's an amazing driver's car.
The only downside to Macstruts on the 8thgen Si is that it doesn't gain camber under compression, like DWB would. But put about -1.5 up front and you don't see much camber wear outside. (the FG2/FA5 love front camber)
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No I am not. Relatively speaking, it still has proper weight balance. And it has huge ass tires to compensate. Sticky ones at that.
Struts don't gain camber under cornering, hence the argument.
Also, you can put -1.5 camber on the DWB setup, still gain the camber in cornering and still not get any excessive tire wear, which goes right back to the point that no matter what you do to the strut, the DWB is still superior from a geometry stanpoint ceteris paribus.
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sugaki
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owequitit wrote:
Also, you can put -1.5 camber on the DWB setup, still gain the camber in cornering and still not get any excessive tire wear, which goes right back to the point that no matter what you do to the strut, the DWB is still superior from a geometry stanpoint ceteris paribus.
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I never denied DWB is better than Mac struts performance wise, but it's not a big deal or a deal breaker. You can't feel DWB--you don't drive a car and think "oh I can tell it's Mac struts up front." There's a much bigger, more tangible difference between live axle and IRS.
Good suspension tuning makes a far greater difference than DWB vs Mac strut. Compare the 2013 VW CC (Mac struts) to a 2012 Accord (DWB), and I guarantee you'll think the VW has superior suspension. Hyundai Genesis sedan has multilink all around and yet drives like crud.
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owequitit
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sugaki wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Also, you can put -1.5 camber on the DWB setup, still gain the camber in cornering and still not get any excessive tire wear, which goes right back to the point that no matter what you do to the strut, the DWB is still superior from a geometry stanpoint ceteris paribus.
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I never denied DWB is better than Mac struts performance wise, but it's not a big deal or a deal breaker. You can't feel DWB--you don't drive a car and think "oh I can tell it's Mac struts up front." There's a much bigger, more tangible difference between live axle and IRS.
Good suspension tuning makes a far greater difference than DWB vs Mac strut. Compare the 2013 VW CC (Mac struts) to a 2012 Accord (DWB), and I guarantee you'll think the VW has superior suspension. Hyundai Genesis sedan has multilink all around and yet drives like crud.
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There are a lot of situations where you can feel them.
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